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Tags free speech issues , protest incidents

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Old 18th October 2020, 05:11 AM   #1
Puppycow
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Freedom of speech?

Is freedom of speech itself no longer acceptable in America?


Conservatives staging free speech rally attacked by critics

Quote:
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) ó A free speech demonstration staged by conservative activists quickly fell apart in downtown San Francisco on Saturday after several hundred counterprotesters surged the area, outnumbering and attacking those gathered, including knocking one in the mouth.
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Old 18th October 2020, 05:35 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Is freedom of speech itself no longer acceptable in America?

Conservatives staging free speech rally attacked by critics

From the link:
Quote:
Team Save America organized the rally to protest Twitter, which it said squelches conservative speech.

Members of the group wore red ďMake America Great AgainĒ Trump campaign hats and carried pro-police ďThin Blue LineĒ flags and U.S. flags.
Easier to understand if you call it what it was: A pro-Trump rally in downtown San Francisco.
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Old 18th October 2020, 05:39 AM   #3
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Yeah, but freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom only to say what's popular or widely accepted.
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Old 18th October 2020, 05:48 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Yeah, but freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom only to say what's popular or widely accepted.
"Freedom of speech" is an often-misunderstood concept. It means that the government generally can't prevent you from saying what you want or punish you after the fact. It doesn't mean that people who are offended by your speech can't respond with some speech of their own.
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Old 18th October 2020, 05:58 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) ó A free speech demonstration staged by conservative activists quickly fell apart in downtown San Francisco on Saturday after several hundred counterprotesters surged the area, outnumbering and attacking those gathered, including knocking one in the mouth.
OH THE HUMANITY
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Old 18th October 2020, 06:05 AM   #6
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A group of people showing up to say something and another group showing up to say something else sounds like free speech
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Old 18th October 2020, 07:14 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Is freedom of speech itself no longer acceptable in America?

Conservatives staging free speech rally attacked by critics
Whatís not getting reported is that the protestors were for an organization dedicated to not kicking puppies.

Is not kicking puppies no longer acceptable in America?
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Old 18th October 2020, 07:17 AM   #8
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Pro-Trump/conservative group arrange protest designed to provoke a response to gain publicity. Sadly more violent elements of opposition, including just plain thugs, take bait. Conservative group wins.

I am opposed to violence. I am also opposed to stupidity. I strongly wish these were only non-violent counter protests.
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Old 18th October 2020, 07:23 AM   #9
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Bunch of proto fascists here, explaining why itís ok to use violence against the enemy within.
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Old 18th October 2020, 07:48 AM   #10
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Given how consistently all "violence" at these things has always been started by the righties, not the lefties, and how frequently righties lie about that fact, the odds that it finally actually was the opposite of the usual just this one time are... not impressively high.

...especially given the additional fact that right here we have a righty already lying about it anyway, with the additional pretense that, even if a lefty did finally start it this time, that would somehow mean the government was cracking down on the righties' rights.
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Old 18th October 2020, 07:56 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
"Freedom of speech" is an often-misunderstood concept. It means that the government generally can't prevent you from saying what you want or punish you after the fact. It doesn't mean that people who are offended by your speech can't respond with some speech of their own.
/Thread.
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Old 18th October 2020, 08:19 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
OH THE HUMANITY
Knocked two of his teeth out, for the sin of...what was it? Wearing a hat or shirt? There was literally nothing else reported.

This shouldn't be a laughing matter. The way discourse is going down lately bodes ill.
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Old 18th October 2020, 08:22 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Knocked two of his teeth out, for the sin of...what was it? Wearing a hat or shirt? There was literally nothing else reported.

This shouldn't be a laughing matter. The way discourse is going down lately bodes ill.
Considering that ďIt is what it isĒ has become the mantra of Republicans in the face of hundreds of thousands of dead Americans, exactly how much in a twist are we supposed to get our knickers over someone getting punched in the face?
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Old 18th October 2020, 08:25 AM   #14
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Is it never not okay to punch a Nazi?

It's become commonplace for Nazis to clutch pearls when bad things happen to them. It reminds me of fundy Christians whining about being oppressed in the USA when they're told that they're not allowed to oppress others.
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Old 18th October 2020, 09:20 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Knocked two of his teeth out, for the sin of...what was it? Wearing a hat or shirt? There was literally nothing else reported.

This shouldn't be a laughing matter. The way discourse is going down lately bodes ill.
You can bothsides me when someone plows a damn car into them. "We get to be murderously violent dickwads but you don't" isn't what I'd call "discourse."
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Old 18th October 2020, 09:41 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Considering that ďIt is what it isĒ has become the mantra of Republicans in the face of hundreds of thousands of dead Americans, exactly how much in a twist are we supposed to get our knickers over someone getting punched in the face?
Because if you are on Team Good Guy, your adversary is not a faceless character of everything you dislike, to be treated genericly. You don't knock an individuals teeth out because of your impression of what somebody else is saying.

I mean, have at it if you like. Just check your halo at the door of you think you are morally justified, with legally justified being long in the rear view mirror. Pick your side, but own that ****. Captain Kyle's Team will welcome your catch-all vigilanism.
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Old 18th October 2020, 09:54 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Because if you are on Team Good Guy, your adversary is not a faceless character of everything you dislike, to be treated genericly. You don't knock an individuals teeth out because of your impression of what somebody else is saying.

I mean, have at it if you like. Just check your halo at the door of you think you are morally justified, with legally justified being long in the rear view mirror. Pick your side, but own that ****. Captain Kyle's Team will welcome your catch-all vigilanism.
Overdramatic moral posturing isnít an answer to my question.
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Old 18th October 2020, 10:03 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Because if you are on Team Good Guy, your adversary is not a faceless character of everything you dislike, to be treated genericly. You don't knock an individuals teeth out because of your impression of what somebody else is saying.
.....
We don't know what happened. If he was actually attacked by 500 counter-demonstrators he wouldn't have survived. If somebody pitched a bottle at the podium, you could call it "wrong place, wrong time."
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Old 18th October 2020, 10:12 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Overdramatic moral posturing isnít an answer to my question.
Fine. The hyper-anal answer to your question would then be: We should get our collective panties in a fairly large and twisted bunch over the random dental restructuring of any Republican who is peacefully demonstrating if the justification is that you don't like what other Republicans have said at other times and places. This particular one does not necessarily carry that particular onus of responsibility. Not that random violent attacks are ever an appropriate response to vague posturing by others on freaking Twitter.

Better?
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Old 18th October 2020, 10:17 AM   #20
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Question:
did the violent counter-protester hit to prevent someone from talking, or hit because of what what said.

Only one of those scenarios would be the domain of Freedom Of Speech.
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Old 18th October 2020, 10:18 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
We don't know what happened. If he was actually attacked by 500 counter-demonstrators he wouldn't have survived. If somebody pitched a bottle at the podium, you could call it "wrong place, wrong time."
True. The question I was asked was how much should we get our panties in a twist over a Republican demonstrator getting punched in the mouth. Without any additional information about the altercation, I'd say pretty bunched. New evidence might change that.
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Old 18th October 2020, 10:24 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Question:
did the violent counter-protester hit to prevent someone from talking, or hit because of what what said.

Only one of those scenarios would be the domain of Freedom Of Speech.
It was a fascist demonstration in the middle of San Francisco. I would assume they came looking for a fight and found one.

This story about those horrible mean ol' counterprotesters being mean to them should therefore be given the same consideration as one of our trolls making a thread in the FMF forum to whine about being unfairly yellow carded.
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Old 18th October 2020, 10:34 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Fine. The hyper-anal answer to your question would then be: We should get our collective panties in a fairly large and twisted bunch over the random dental restructuring of any Republican who is peacefully demonstrating if the justification is that you don't like what other Republicans have said at other times and places. This particular one does not necessarily carry that particular onus of responsibility. Not that random violent attacks are ever an appropriate response to vague posturing by others on freaking Twitter.

Better?
Okay, so if we need to get that worked up over someone getting hit in the face, whatís the appropriate response to vehicular homicide, or plots to kidnap governors, or large-scale incompetence and negligence that leads to tens of thousands of needless deaths?

To be clear, people getting hit in the face for any reason isnít generally something that concerns me all that much. Itís just a matter of scale with so many more significant evils in the world. But lacking the moral clarity that you so clearly possess, Iím curious to know how you balance all these issues.
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Old 18th October 2020, 10:37 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
You can bothsides me when someone plows a damn car into them. "We get to be murderously violent dickwads but you don't" isn't what I'd call "discourse."
No one says they unilaterally get to be anything. Murderers are murderers and get the Rule of Law with both barrels.

You want a justified target on your back because of the actions of worst actors on your team? One radical hard-leftist with a gun and your teeth are fair game? That's pretty stupid.
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Old 18th October 2020, 10:41 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Okay, so if we need to get that worked up over someone getting hit in the face, whatís the appropriate response to vehicular homicide, or plots to kidnap governors, or large-scale incompetence and negligence that leads to tens of thousands of needless deaths?

To be clear, people getting hit in the face for any reason isnít generally something that concerns me all that much. Itís just a matter of scale with so many more significant evils in the world. But lacking the moral clarity that you so clearly possess, Iím curious to know how you balance all these issues.
Teeth knocked out. Not the downplayed 'hit in the face'.

I say the good guys stay on the high ground. You say an eye for an eye. Actually, just anyone's eye for an eye. You go, Hammurabi.
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Old 18th October 2020, 10:45 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Murderers are murderers and get the Rule of Law with both barrels.
The police broke up this fight and didn't arrest anyone or make any charges. By your logic the Rule of Law has said that nothing effectively happened here, so I don't see how your point follows.
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Old 18th October 2020, 10:52 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
The police broke up this fight and didn't arrest anyone or make any charges. By your logic the Rule of Law has said that nothing effectively happened here, so I don't see how your point follows.
Hm. I thought that would mean the cops didn't catch any suspects. But you say it means nothing happened here. Hm.

I suppose the cop who was hospitalized sprayed himself with caustic chemicals? Or the police just thought it was all in good fun?
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Old 18th October 2020, 11:01 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Hm. I thought that would mean the cops didn't catch any suspects. But you say it means nothing happened here. Hm.

I suppose the cop who was hospitalized sprayed himself with caustic chemicals? Or the police just thought it was all in good fun?
No, we know who pepper-sprayed the cops, it was the Trumpers. Otherwise do you think the interviewed organizer of the group would have refrained from accusing the counter-protestors of that too? Which suggests they were pepper-spraying the counter-protestors as well, meaning that he did not get struck in the face "for no reason."

Like I said, came for a fight, found one.
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Old 18th October 2020, 11:05 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Yeah, but freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom only to say what's popular or widely accepted.
Freedom of Speech means the government can't suppress what you say. Private individuals have no such restrictions.

If you come to my house, and start talking about your support for Trump, and you won't shut up about it when I tell you to, I can (and will) kick you out. I'm not suppressing your right to free speech, I'm kicking you out because you're being a dickhead.... My house, my rules.
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Old 18th October 2020, 11:10 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
No, we know who pepper-sprayed the cops, it was the Trumpers. Otherwise do you think the interviewed organizer of the group would have refrained from accusing the counter-protestors of that too? Which suggests they were pepper-spraying the counter-protestors as well, meaning that he did not get struck in the face "for no reason."

Like I said, came for a fight, found one.
That's...thats an interesting interpretation. So, reading this AP article, you assume the Thin Blue Line supporters were...pepper spraying the cops, hospitalizing one...then you clairvoyantly read that the Trumpeters pepper sprayed the counterprotestors, causing them to fight back...all of this being fine and dandy with the police, who are so well known for tolerating the hospitalization of one of their own.

Ok, I'll be signing off now.
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Old 18th October 2020, 11:25 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's...thats an interesting interpretation. So, reading this AP article, you assume the Thin Blue Line supporters were...pepper spraying the cops, hospitalizing one...then you clairvoyantly read that the Trumpeters pepper sprayed the counterprotestors, causing them to fight back...all of this being fine and dandy with the police, who are so well known for tolerating the hospitalization of one of their own.

Ok, I'll be signing off now.
It would help if you'd actually read my posts instead of skimming them for things to scoff at. They wanted a fight. They came for a fight. They got a fight. Cops broke up the fight. Zero **** were given all around, except for people desperate to try and twist it into something where blame can be laid on both sides.

[ETA] Aaand I just noticed he's making one of those boogaloo hand signs as they load him into the ambulance. I'm sticking with "he had it coming."

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Old 18th October 2020, 12:01 PM   #32
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Progressives resorting to political violence when confronted with political speech.
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Old 18th October 2020, 12:04 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
It would help if you'd actually read my posts instead of skimming them for things to scoff at. They wanted a fight. They came for a fight. They got a fight. Cops broke up the fight. Zero **** were given all around, except for people desperate to try and twist it into something where blame can be laid on both sides.
No, the AP article is titled ' Conservatives Staging Free Speech Rally Attacked by Critics.' It does not say 'We know who pepper sprayed the cops. It was the Trumpers' (your words).

I can't tell from this article who started what. But I have been cheering antifa for years, when they throw down mutually. I can't see that this one was mutual.

You are just making **** up. Im not willing to argue with hallucinations.

Eta:your eta: or maybe...just maybe...an 'I'm ok' sign?

Btw, the ok sign is white power, not Boogs. And still 99% of the time, it means ******* ok
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Old 18th October 2020, 12:09 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Progressives resorting to political violence when confronted with political speech.
I don't think these guys were necessarily progressives any more than a mugger must be a fiscal conservative reclaiming his stolen tax dollars.
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Old 18th October 2020, 12:15 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No, the AP article is titled ' Conservatives Staging Free Speech Rally Attacked by Critics.' It does not say 'We know who pepper sprayed the cops. It was the Trumpers' (your words).

I can't tell from this article who started what. But I have been cheering antifa for years, when they throw down mutually. I can't see that this one was mutual.

You are just making **** up. Im not willing to argue with hallucinations.
It also doesn't say it was a counter-protestor who hit him. Or even that he had that tooth the day before. The only thing it does say is his mouth was injured (for which he was loaded on a stretcher into an ambulance?), and that he claims it was a peaceful protest which was attacked "for no reason," which I find about as likely as the first two insinuations.
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Old 18th October 2020, 12:29 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
It also doesn't say it was a counter-protestor who hit him. Or even that he had that tooth the day before. The only thing it does say is his mouth was injured (for which he was loaded on a stretcher into an ambulance?), and that he claims it was a peaceful protest which was attacked "for no reason," which I find about as likely as the first two insinuations.
FFS dude his mouth was covered in blood with one of the teeth still dangling. No, I don't think he was wandering around for days like that. This is not some bias-assed Faux news op-ed. It's the Associated Press.

And yes, speaking as a former Recsue squad volunteer, you assume possible head injury and treat accordingly when you see a busted up face like that. I mean, come on.
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Old 18th October 2020, 12:54 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I don't think these guys were necessarily progressives any more than a mugger must be a fiscal conservative reclaiming his stolen tax dollars.
An aside: To born Republicans, "progressive" is a pejorative, quite a scandalous term, and they apply it in the belief that it destroys with its very touch. Once they've uttered it, they can lean back and enjoy the devastation they imagine they've wrought, and play deaf to any sort of counter-argument.

Ask them to define "progressive" if you like, but please, in a separate thread.
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Old 18th October 2020, 01:04 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
An aside: To born Republicans, "progressive" is a pejorative, quite a scandalous term, and they apply it in the belief that it destroys with its very touch. Once they've uttered it, they can lean back and enjoy the devastation they imagine they've wrought, and play deaf to any sort of counter-argument.

Ask them to define "progressive" if you like, but please, in a separate thread.
I get that, and while I don't hang much in political threads, I consider theprestige to be one of a very few posters who will reconsider his position as a result of clean argumentation. Not always, but often enough where I do not consider him closed minded at all.
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Old 18th October 2020, 01:23 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
FFS dude his mouth was covered in blood with one of the teeth still dangling. No, I don't think he was wandering around for days like that. This is not some bias-assed Faux news op-ed. It's the Associated Press.

And yes, speaking as a former Recsue squad volunteer, you assume possible head injury and treat accordingly when you see a busted up face like that. I mean, come on.
See? Now that we've got "but the article doesn't say that!" out of the way, which do you find more likely: that this boogaloo boy really was staging a completely peaceful protest for conservative ideology in downtown San Francisco and really was assaulted and attacked by hundreds of anti-fascist counter-protestors yet only suffered a punch in face purely for his views and exercise of free speech, or that he deliberately came to pick a fight?
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Old 18th October 2020, 01:43 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
See? Now that we've got "but the article doesn't say that!" out of the way,
Actually, no. You will continue to be held to factual accuracy. Random rewriting of the narrative does not constitute factual accuracy.

Quote:
...which do you find more likely: that this boogaloo boy...
Nowhere does the article state he was a boog. He does not look like a boog, nor speak like one. In fact, pretty confident you have no idea whatsoever what a Boogaloo Boi is.

Quote:
...really was staging a completely peaceful protest for conservative ideology in downtown San Francisco...
Yes, people stage protests of all sorts all over the place

Quote:
... and really was assaulted and attacked by hundreds of anti-fascist counter-protestors...

The article says the critics attacked the conservatives, not that hundreds attacked just him. You don't understand a word of this article, do you?

Quote:
...yet only suffered a punch in face purely for his views and exercise of free speech...
I.e.: Got teeth knocked out in an attack

Quote:
...or that he deliberately came to pick a fight?
False dichotomy. Look at hommes. He look like a scrapper to you? Looks like a couch potato to me. I think it's perfectly plausible that he was politically flexing, with no intention of brawling. If the conservatives were armed, different story. Oh, and your pulled-out-of-thin-air claim that the Trumpanzees were the chemical s prayers here still amounts to precisely squat. You'll need to demonstrate why Thin Blue Line supporters would be hospitalizing cops, then the cops clapping them on the back.
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