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Tags Amy Coney Barrett , obituaries , Ruth Bader Ginsburg , Supreme Court issues , Supreme Court justices

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Old 21st September 2020, 09:23 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Leaving aside the accusations of dishonesty for a moment: Do you think she actually made that statement? Do you think that statement should be a consideration in filling the vacancy on the bench?
Yes. It is consistent with her actions. There was a report ...from NPR, IIRC? ...that she didn't retire during Obama's term because she anticipated Clinton winning and she like the symmetry of having a female President (and, possibly, another Clinton) nominating her successor. Further, she doggedly refused to step down, despite all her fights with cancer, during Trump's term.

So, yeah, it seems highly likely for her to say and believe something like that.


eta: Spending moments looking, I found this: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Disses Trump, Hints She Wants Clinton to Name Her Successor
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:30 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Yes. It is consistent with her actions. There was a report ...from NPR, IIRC? ...that she didn't retire during Obama's term because she anticipated Clinton winning and she like the symmetry of having a female President (and, possibly, another Clinton) nominating her successor. Further, she doggedly refused to step down, despite all her fights with cancer, during Trump's term.

So, yeah, it seems highly likely for her to say and believe something like that.
I'm inclined to agree. It certainly seems plausible on its face. What about my other question? Do you think it should be taken seriously?

The way NPR describes the scene - "dictated a statement" - suggests to me that RBG herself thought it should be taken seriously. Is that how you read it?
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:34 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
It already is. Understanding that this is a fact of life would be a great help to Democrats facing decades of a hostile federal court system.

We got here by the GOP selectively ignoring or destroying historical norms that defined the way the government worked.

Democrats, if they get the chance, have to do likewise else they will not be able to reshape the government. A big part of that is accepting that the courts have become political and end the norm that the Court is given what amounts to total deference.
Exactly. The GOP is fighting the match using weapons and every dirty trick in the book. The democrats have to do the same. Instead, when the democrats do decide to kick the GOP in the nuts, they GOP cries "fowl" and the democrats go back to fighting by the rules.
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:35 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Yes. It is consistent with her actions.
Actually. She probably just said "**** it, let the GOP destroy the nation. I don't care because I'm dying and I love Trump."

At least, this is what Prestige is implying.
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:39 AM   #365
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For me "Don't stoop to their level" isn't a moral argument. It's much more "Don't stoop to their level because you aren't going to be nearly as good at it as they are."

The Democrats not being able to beat the Republicans politically so they start mudslinging is like me losing to Mike Tyson at Chess to I challenge him to a boxing match because I have to "stoop to his level to win."

There's a reason dirty pool is "their level." They are good at it.
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:40 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Actually. She probably just said "**** it, let the GOP destroy the nation. I don't care because I'm dying and I love Trump."

At least, this is what Prestige is implying.
Not at all.

I'm implying that I'm interested in seeing whether anyone will defend the statement as being important for deciding whether to fill the vacancy.
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:40 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Actually. She probably just said "**** it, let the GOP destroy the nation. I don't care because I'm dying and I love Trump."

At least, this is what Prestige is implying.
Trump is a God. Only fitting that his followers start creating Last Minute Death Bed UL's around him.
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:42 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The way NPR describes the scene - "dictated a statement" - suggests to me that RBG herself thought it should be taken seriously. Is that how you read it?
Itís a deathbed wish. She probably would have liked to be taken seriously, yes. Whether she expected it to be respected, weíre talking about Trumpís GOP. When are they respectful of anything?
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:45 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Itís a deathbed wish. She probably would have liked to be taken seriously, yes. Whether she expected it to be respected, weíre talking about Trumpís GOP. When are they respectful of anything?
Do you think it should be taken seriously?
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:45 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Yes. It is consistent with her actions. There was a report ...from NPR, IIRC? ...that she didn't retire during Obama's term because she anticipated Clinton winning and she like the symmetry of having a female President (and, possibly, another Clinton) nominating her successor. Further, she doggedly refused to step down, despite all her fights with cancer, during Trump's term.

So, yeah, it seems highly likely for her to say and believe something like that.


eta: Spending moments looking, I found this: Ruth Bader Ginsburg Disses Trump, Hints She Wants Clinton to Name Her Successor
I do wish she'd made her wishes publicly known. After all, it's not like she didn't have a clue at to what was coming.
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:48 AM   #371
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Only in Trumpland would the 'leader' (cough laugh cough) of a 'country' (cough laugh cough) put into question the last dying words of a well-respected individual because said dying words aren't to his its liking. And only in same said Trumpland would his its minions then follow his its lead with "Yeah, how do we know that's what she actually said? Pelosi probably told her what to say. Fake news!"
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:51 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I do wish she'd made her wishes publicly known. After all, it's not like she didn't have a clue at to what was coming.
You know, if I was on my deathbed, and I was going to make one wish, that may or may not come true, I think I'd wish for it to not be my deathbed.
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:54 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Actually. She probably just said "**** it, let the GOP destroy the nation. I don't care because I'm dying and I love Trump."

At least, this is what Prestige is implying.
No, no, she said "I love Mr. Trump and I know he'll do what's best for America."

At least that'll be the next Trump tweet.
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:56 AM   #374
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Yes. Whether or not her granddaughter lied about the dying words of a Supreme Court Justice is now a conversation we'll have to have and we'll all pretend that is perfectly normal.
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:58 AM   #375
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The US system doesn't leave room for a SC Judge to get invovled in their successor.
Though that might have been what happened with Anthony Kennedy.
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:58 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Do you think it should be taken seriously?
Who, me personally? Yeah, I think it should be taken seriously.

It's an easy kindness to give to someone who has done so much for so many.
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:59 AM   #377
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So dumb question. Why is "Chief Justice" this distinct, separately appointed position instead of just like the most senior member of the Court?
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Old 21st September 2020, 10:13 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The US system doesn't leave room for a SC Judge to get invovled in their successor.
Unless one of them comes back as a ghost and strangles all the nominated successors until an acceptable replacement is found. That was the plot of an X-Files episode. Also a Mama's Family episode.
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Old 21st September 2020, 10:19 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Unless one of them comes back as a ghost and strangles all the nominated successors until an acceptable replacement is found. That was the plot of an X-Files episode. Also a Mama's Family episode.
But when that happens, who you gonna call?
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Old 21st September 2020, 10:33 AM   #380
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Who cares about this sort of dying wish? What if it were her wish to keep abortion legal? Is that a good pro-choice argument? "While on her deathbed, RBG wanted abortion to be legal, so it should be legal." Would we care about Scalia's dying wish? Or Trump's?

A meaningful dying wish is about where she wants to be buried, or what heirs should do with her fortune, or how they can honor her legacy. But if she wants the Yankees to win the World Series, then the Dodgers aren't ******** for refusing to roll over.
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Old 21st September 2020, 10:47 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Who cares about this sort of dying wish? What if it were her wish to keep abortion legal? Is that a good pro-choice argument? While on her deathbed, RBG wanted abortion to be legal. Would we care about Scalia's dying wish? Or Trump's?

A meaningful dying wish is about where she wants to be buried, or what heirs should do with her fortune, or how they can honor her legacy. But if she wants the Yankees to win the World Series, then the Dodgers aren't ******** for refusing to roll over.
I have to agree with Cain about this. As nice as it would be to honor RBG's dying wish out of respect for her, it simply isn't feasible. This is a matter of politics with serious consequences, not a matter of respect.
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Old 21st September 2020, 10:47 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
From NPR:

"Just days before her death, as her strength waned, Ginsburg dictated this statement to her granddaughter Clara Spera: "My most fervent wish is that I will not be replaced until a new president is installed."
Presumably Clara Spera is on record somewhere, making the claim herself in her own words. I think we can agree that we don't need to accuse anyone of lying
Then tell that to Trump, because he is the one that is accusing the Ginsburg family of lying.
Quote:
to say the statement should be verified before taking it seriously.
As others have pointed out, its consistent with her previous actions.
Quote:
Leaving aside the accusations of dishonesty for a moment: Do you think she actually made that statement? Do you think that statement should be a consideration in filling the vacancy on the bench?
A more rational statement (instead of Trump's "RBG would have wanted me to fill the free slot on the supreme court!") would have been to say something along the lines of "the position is not hereditary... it belongs to the American people to decide how to handle the vacant seat".

The reason why Ginsburg's wishes are relevant is because they are entirely reasonable, ethically/morally sound, and best overall for society. She was not saying "keep the slot open until they find a way to resurrect the dead and I can become the first zombie judge". She was also not saying "The next judge should be a left-handed Libra". Instead she was just saying what the majority of voters are currently saying (and what the majority of senators and other politicians should be saying).
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Old 21st September 2020, 10:49 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
Only in Trumpland would the 'leader' (cough laugh cough) of a 'country' (cough laugh cough) put into question the last dying words of a well-respected individual because said dying words aren't to his its liking. And only in same said Trumpland would his its minions then follow his its lead with "Yeah, how do we know that's what she actually said? Pelosi probably told her what to say. Fake news!"
Agreed. Only in Trumlandia. What a vile POS.
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Old 21st September 2020, 10:50 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So dumb question. Why is "Chief Justice" this distinct, separately appointed position instead of just like the most senior member of the Court?
I'm wondering that as well. Just like I wonder why there are "majority leaders" breathing down their co-workers' necks in Congress.
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Old 21st September 2020, 10:51 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Then tell that to Trump, because he is the one that is accusing the Ginsburg family of lying.

As others have pointed out, its consistent with her previous actions.

A more rational statement (instead of Trump's "RBG would have wanted me to fill the free slot on the supreme court!") would have been to say something along the lines of "the position is not hereditary... it belongs to the American people to decide how to handle the vacant seat".

The reason why Ginsburg's wishes are relevant is because they are entirely reasonable, ethically/morally sound, and best overall for society. She was not saying "keep the slot open until they find a way to resurrect the dead and I can become the first zombie judge". She was also not saying "The next judge should be a left-handed Libra". Instead she was just saying what the majority of voters are currently saying (and what the majority of senators and other politicians should be saying).
Why is it ethically the right thing to do wait? Most of it made sense, but that struck me as a big jump.
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Old 21st September 2020, 11:01 AM   #386
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I'm surprised Trump isn't saying that since he's going to win anyway, he's fine allowing the election winner to bring forth a nominee.

Dang. Second robs-call of the day from Trump. I get to hang up on him multiple times per day.
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Old 21st September 2020, 11:13 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The reason why Ginsburg's wishes are relevant is because they are entirely reasonable, ethically/morally sound, and best overall for society. She was not saying "keep the slot open until they find a way to resurrect the dead and I can become the first zombie judge". She was also not saying "The next judge should be a left-handed Libra". Instead she was just saying what the majority of voters are currently saying (and what the majority of senators and other politicians should be saying).
To take her statement as it is dictated would not be reasonable though. It does not say after the election, it specifically says after a new president is installed. So if Trump wins, are we to wait out the second term as well?
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Old 21st September 2020, 11:19 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
To take her statement as it is dictated would not be reasonable though. It does not say after the election, it specifically says after a new president is installed. So if Trump wins, are we to wait out the second term as well?
I don't think that is a reasonable interpretation, but even if it were, Ted Cruz believes we could wait until after a second Trump term.
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Old 21st September 2020, 11:23 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Oh goodie. Now he (with Mitch's help) is going to dredge up some terrible harridan throwback who thinks women these days should defer to their husbands...
Trump's Leading Pick To Replace RBG Believes Husbands Should Rule Over Wives

https://mavenroundtable.io/theintell...BkKkd-p7tXZVCQ
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Old 21st September 2020, 11:28 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Trump's Leading Pick To Replace RBG Believes Husbands Should Rule Over Wives

https://mavenroundtable.io/theintell...BkKkd-p7tXZVCQ
sooo... her husband is going to get the nomination?
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Old 21st September 2020, 11:38 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Trump's Leading Pick To Replace RBG Believes Husbands Should Rule Over Wives

https://mavenroundtable.io/theintell...BkKkd-p7tXZVCQ
Oh, great. Just what we need. And they scream about Sharia law coming?
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Old 21st September 2020, 12:13 PM   #392
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Mitch just said some very kind words about RGB and her legacy........now he's taking a big dump over all of it.
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Old 21st September 2020, 12:19 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Trump's Leading Pick To Replace RBG Believes Husbands Should Rule Over Wives

https://mavenroundtable.io/theintell...BkKkd-p7tXZVCQ
This reminds me of the commander's wife, Serena Joy, in The Handmaids Tale. Once a respected, conservative author who can no longer legally even read a book in Gileadean law and society.

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Old 21st September 2020, 12:20 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
To take her statement as it is dictated would not be reasonable though.
It does not say after the election, it specifically says after a new president
is installed. So if Trump wins, are we to wait out the second term as well?
It sounded reasonable to me. So I answer, Yes.
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Old 21st September 2020, 12:22 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Mitch just said some very kind words about RGB and her legacy........now he's taking a big dump over all of it.
I tried to listen to him and just couldn't stomach more than a couple minutes past his remarks about RBG before putting him on mute. He turns my stomach a much as Trump.
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Old 21st September 2020, 12:35 PM   #396
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Solitaire View Post
It sounded reasonable to me. So I answer, Yes. : )
As a sentiment, it's entirely understandable and reasonable to me.

As a sober policy prescription for how the nation should go about filling vacancies on the bench, I'm not so sure.
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Old 21st September 2020, 12:54 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Exactly. The GOP is fighting the match using weapons and every dirty trick in the book. The democrats have to do the same. Instead, when the democrats do decide to kick the GOP in the nuts, they GOP cries "fowl" and the democrats go back to fighting by the rules.
It isn't dirty to try to move forward rather than fix what is broken.

The GOP broke a bunch of traditional norms. So far the Democrat position seems to be to just fix those norms as if this is a Trump thing and not the logical progression of 50+ years of the modern conservative movement. Like so many kings men and horses scrambling with crazy glue and duct tape thinking that they can put it all back together and things will be great like they were back in the day.

That is basically like wearing a blue MAGA hat. Those norms, like heavy industry and coal mining jobs, are gone. Weird schemes to bring them back (court packing, tariffs and eliminating regulations) are doomed because they don't address why they are gone.
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Old 21st September 2020, 12:55 PM   #398
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For this death-bed wish, it's funny how Trump says the statement was dictated by Schumer or Schiff. It's laughable bull-**** to anyone with a brain, but Donald's "genius" is in being a retard-whisperer.
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Old 21st September 2020, 01:04 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
For this death-bed wish, it's funny how Trump says the statement was dictated by Schumer or Schiff. It's laughable bull-**** to anyone with a brain, but Donald's "genius" is in being a retard-whisperer.
It is so asinine to suggest it is fake. They have no reason to care, and realistically shouldn't care. To question authenticity gives it way more weight than it deserves as it implies that anyone should give a crap.

I mean, I don't. It smacks of the same arrogance that put her in the position to undo her whole legacy by dying a few months too soon. It wasn't enough to want to rule things while in her 80s and fighting cancer. She wants to keep doing it after she's dead.

There are plenty of good reasons that the seat should be left open, but her wishes are not anywhere near close to being one of them.
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Old 21st September 2020, 01:06 PM   #400
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Attempting to justify a fast-track nomination for the Supreme Court, McConnell cites the 19 days that it took for John Paul Stevens' nomination.

What he doesn't note is that Stevens was nominated in 1975, which was not an election year.
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