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Old 28th September 2020, 01:47 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I think there is one immediate and very critical result that will come from the release of the tax returns:

no major law firm will represent him without cash up front.
I think that has already been the case.
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Old 28th September 2020, 02:16 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Someone on CNN said Biden should hand Trump a check for $750 at the debate and say he heard he needed a loan.
Perfect.
Trump would want to take it and cash it in order to punish Biden for the insult. Would he be smart enough to avoid that?

The clever thing to do is to take it and auction it off. I suspect it would fetch very low six-figures.
Then the question becomes should he take the money for himself, give the money to his campaign, or donate it to charity (haha, just kidding, he’d never do that).
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Old 28th September 2020, 02:46 AM   #123
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Melania must be worried now. She's thinking there's no way that she will get anything on that pre-nup agreement.
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Old 28th September 2020, 02:52 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So the NYT has given us the "eye opening revelation" (based on documents it hasn't disclosed) that Trump is no different to other 1 percenters. He has taken advantage of the complex tax laws to reduce his tax liability to practically nothing.

I'm shocked I tells you, SHOCKED!
It shows that he has broken tax laws.
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Old 28th September 2020, 02:53 AM   #125
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In 2017 when Trump paid $750 in taxes JoeBiden paid $3.7 million.
And Biden gave $1 million to charity, Trump gave $0.
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Old 28th September 2020, 02:55 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It shows that he has broken tax laws.
I'm sure he, and/or his lawyers and accountants will insist that he has not. Tax laws are so complex that there are all kinds of grey areas.

I'm sure they can find a way to explain the apparent payments to Ivanka as a consultant.
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Old 28th September 2020, 03:16 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
And there it is. The "everyone does it" excuse. I'm shocked I tells you, SHOCKED!
You misunderstand. This is not in anyway a vindication of Trump.

We all knew that Trump was a dishonest crook long before the "startling" revelations in the NYT so this sudden shocked and outraged reaction is over the top.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The documents it hasn't disclosed? You mean Trump's tax returns?
From the ARTICLE:
In response to a letter summarizing The Times’s findings, Alan Garten, a lawyer for the Trump Organization, said that “most, if not all, of the facts appear to be inaccurate” and requested the documents on which they were based. After The Times declined to provide the records, in order to protect its sources, Mr. Garten took direct issue only with the amount of taxes Mr. Trump had paid.
So not only do we don't know if the documents the article was based on are genuine, we have to rely on the NYT's interpretation of the documents.

The NYT article is almost certainly not "fake news" but otherwise, all of the numbers have to be taken with a grain of salt.
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Old 28th September 2020, 03:32 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
NBC says Trump used their hair stylist on the show in 3...2...1.
We do know he pays out for his hair, that was the cause of him assaulting and "not rape rape" raping his first wife.
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Old 28th September 2020, 03:43 AM   #129
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Biden should come on with two stacks of bills, put them on his podium, then point to the smallest one and say "taxes" and then point to the pile that is nearly ten times bigger and say "hairspray".
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Old 28th September 2020, 03:54 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It shows that he has broken tax laws.
LAW & ORDER!!!!
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Old 28th September 2020, 04:16 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It's clear from the documents that Trump runs is businesses at a constant loss and siphons the profits to somewhere else.
Just like he's doing to the US.

No wonder the IRS takeover was more important than anything else to Trump after the inauguration.

I hope Biden will make a commitment to taking from Trump every tax dollar he owes.
I would prefer that Biden say that he's not going to get involved with decisions to move forward on legal actions just that he will expect the agencies in the Executive Branch to enforce the law without fear or favor.
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Old 28th September 2020, 04:23 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
The word “think” is the key. When I comment ex cathedra, I’ll let people know.
I'm concerned but haven't crossed into worry yet. This isn't 2016. Biden is in a very different situation than Clinton was at this point in the last election cycle. The polling data showed vulnerabilities in Pennsylvania and Michigan in 2016 that aren't there this year.

This report will get out the Biden base and probably keep the Obama-Trump voter at home which helps Biden.
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Old 28th September 2020, 04:29 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It narrowed after the conventions. Then it steadied for a few weeks. The margin has increased ever so slightly in the past week. (From 6.8 to 7.2 per 538.)

(I check 538 multiple times a day. A sign of fear and/or pathos, take your pick.)
The thing you have to watch with 538 are the Rasmussen Polls... they are low grade for accuracy and reliability (only C+) but they ALWAYS favour Trump by a significant margin compared with the others. Every time I see a tick up in Trump's favorable rating plus a tick down in his unfavourable, it has always been accompanied by a Rasmussen Poll.
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Old 28th September 2020, 04:36 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Ivanka was paid as a consultant on projects that she was managing

Huge red flag, and very illegal, apparently. Also not something she can wriggle out of - as a member of the organisation, she is legally on the hook here.
Seems like odd behavior, paying a consulting fee for someone who is also your employee.
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Old 28th September 2020, 04:40 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Melania must be worried now. She's thinking there's no way that she will get anything on that pre-nup agreement.
She is right to be worried. In the Atlantic City bankruptcy, the banks put Trump on an allowance. A very generous allowance to be sure but nothing close to what he was spending before.
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Old 28th September 2020, 04:47 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
I think you're probably right. I also think he may have done a round-robin of money on profits, using consultant fees and balance-sheet loan accounts to non directly controlled entities with carried forward losses, switching over different tax years.

Tax returns are good but the supporting financial statements and detailed general ledgers is what a forensic accountant needs to see in a tax audit.

As for Russian money or capital benefits, a non-Trump controlled US discretionary trust, that invests overseas, can possibly distribute trust profit re-characterised as non foreign......soooo, again, you need to see the detailed financial statements and general ledgers.

Let's wait and see what we get to see.
I think we'll know if the creditors start calling in the loans.
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Old 28th September 2020, 04:48 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Seems like odd behavior, paying a consulting fee for someone who is also your employee.
It may be odd. Then again it may just be very tax efficient.
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Old 28th September 2020, 04:53 AM   #138
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I expect that the real Trump Tax Return issue will squelch the phony Trump Drug Test issue that he has been trying to get into circulation.
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Old 28th September 2020, 05:02 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Here is the defense/deflection of this story that you will begin to hear:

“Now let’s see all those people in congress!”

“He already told us he doesn’t pay taxes because he’s smart!”


“Look at any billionaire’s tax returns and I’ll bet you you’ll see the same thing. Let’s see Bill Gates’/Jeff Bezos’/George Soros’ returns!”

“Don’t blame Trump; blame the tax system that lets him do this.”

“The NYT is fake news and has been caught fabricating stories in the past.”
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So the NYT has given us the "eye opening revelation" (based on documents it hasn't disclosed) that Trump is no different to other 1 percenters. He has taken advantage of the complex tax laws to reduce his tax liability to practically nothing.

I'm shocked I tells you, SHOCKED!
*Steve Rogers handing Nick Fury 10 bucks GIF*
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Old 28th September 2020, 05:04 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
It shows that he has broken tax laws.
Whoa... whoa.. .whoa... wait.

Trump... has... broken... a law?

Well this changes everything! It's not like he brags about breaking 10 laws before breakfast everyday or anything. It's not like he openly bragged about doing the thing he was being impeached for during his impeachment proceedings and absolutely nothing came of it. It's not like he openly and admitted stacked the justice department with "My only legal opinion is that the President can do anything he wants" people.

Since this is the first illegal thing it's ever been suggested/proven that Trump has done it will obviously make a difference.
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Old 28th September 2020, 05:12 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Steve Rogers handing Nick Fury 10 bucks GIF*
Somebody else who is shocked and amazed that Trump would do such a thing.
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Old 28th September 2020, 05:14 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Somebody else who is shocked and amazed that Trump would do such a thing.
Yeah but unlike you "I'm not shocked that he would do it" and "Therefore it's no big deal that he did it, everyone does, LOL Librul tears" aren't the same thing.
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Old 28th September 2020, 05:57 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
In 2017 when Trump paid $750 in taxes JoeBiden paid $3.7 million.
And Biden gave $1 million to charity, Trump gave $0.
That, by the way, relates to what made me first think that Trump is a huckster. That was when the first or second season of The Apprentice was shown over here, and the contestants were involved in organizing some sort of a small charity event. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the wining team managed to raise something like $10,000, and Trump magnanimously promised to double that amount from his own money (insert several rounds of "Wow!" and applause here).

OK, this guy is supposedly a billionaire several times over, and now he's giving away $10,000 and I'm supposed to be impressed? A real billionaire would gather more than that by looking between his couch cushions.

A quick search with Altavista or whatever it was that we used back then did reveal that Trump was, even then, notoriously stingy with his charitable contributions. He did, however, regularly call Forbes after they released their billionaire list, complaining that they have him listed way too low, so his "Self-promotion beats actual achievement" -schtick is nothing new.
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Old 28th September 2020, 06:00 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I wonder if Forbes will reassess the conclusion Trump is a billionaire.
Mmm. To poke at this with some unofficial sleuthing -

Looks like there’s an answer to the $4B question on Trump’s finances: Smells like mortgage fraud

Quote:
Early last year, Michael Cohen released a few pages of Trump’s financial statements in advance of his testimony to the House Oversight committee, newly in the hands of a Democratic majority. I noticed something strange in those statements, and wrote a diary about it: In the March 31, 2013 statement of Trump assets, there’s a new asset line for “Brand Value,” listed at a whopping $4 billion, that wasn’t on the previous statement from June 30, 2012. This $4 billion accounted for nearly the entire increase in Trump’s net worth over those 9 months.

<snip>

Now, you don’t personally guarantee a loan unless you absolutely have to. So it looks like whoever was underwriting this mortgage didn’t believe there was enough equity in the property itself to back the loan. (Trump’s 2013 financial statement has the net equity of New York City commercial real estate at $1.06 billion.) So the lender required a personal guarantee. But Trump needed to show personal assets to back that guarantee, and poof! The $4 billion in “Brand Value” appears.

<snip>

There’s a term for inflating assets, or making them up out of whole cloth, in order to secure a loan: Mortgage fraud.
So... a takeaway is that about $4 Billion of Trump's supposed worth seems to have been conjured out of the void, and with about that much substance to it.
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Old 28th September 2020, 06:07 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah but unlike you "I'm not shocked that he would do it" and "Therefore it's no big deal that he did it, everyone does, LOL Librul tears" aren't the same thing.
You are just pretending that my subsequent post doesn't exist so that you can make up strawman arguments.
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Old 28th September 2020, 06:09 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Someone on CNN said Biden should hand Trump a check for $750 at the debate and say he heard he needed a loan.
I'd rather have Biden put $750 in cash on the floor directly in front of them and say "It's yours if you pick it up before the debate ends." I can just see Trump's eyes constantly flicking to the pile and licking his lips, all the while being totally distracted from the questions.
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Old 28th September 2020, 06:10 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You are just pretending that my subsequent post doesn't exist so that you can make up strawman arguments.
Okay. The New York Times is just lying is your argument. "Fake news!"
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Old 28th September 2020, 06:15 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I'd rather have Biden put $750 in cash on the floor directly in front of them and say "It's yours if you pick it up before the debate ends." I can just see Trump's eyes constantly flicking to the pile and licking his lips, all the while being totally distracted from the questions.
All these are fun suggestions.. but, I suspect the debates probably have a "no props" rule.

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Old 28th September 2020, 06:20 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
His base won't budge, they don't care. Hell, they are literally placing their lives in danger just to see the man on stage.
I think they'll just see his tax returns as evidence of his savvy business skills.
Hard to say. I doubt they'll see it in that light, personally, but... different values and narratives come into play there. For example, "He's a criminal? So what? All those politicians are criminals. Trump is on my side, and that's what actually matters to me."

GOP propaganda is corrosive to democracy.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I have no faith in the average Trump supporter because I think the average Trump supporter has the intelligence of a lobotomized gold fish.
Alternately - "I had no idea that the Mueller Report said anything bad about President Trump" said the old lady after a town hall with Amash.

Controlled media pretty much is a thing on the right, effectively speaking.
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Old 28th September 2020, 06:22 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay. The New York Times is just lying is your argument. "Fake news!"
Claims without presented evidence are rejected.
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Old 28th September 2020, 06:26 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So the NYT has given us the "eye opening revelation" (based on documents it hasn't disclosed) that Trump is no different to other 1 percenters. He has taken advantage of the complex tax laws to reduce his tax liability to practically nothing.

I'm shocked I tells you, SHOCKED!
Yes and no. None of it is new to us people outside the alternative facts bubble, but it's another nail in the coffin for the idea of Trump being a successful businessman, and of the idea of him somehow being better than the rest of the politicians/rich people in America. Remember when he was going to drain the swamp? Remember when he ran on the idea that as a rich entrepreneur he could help the US bigly, since he was so good at negotiations and running a successful business?

Also, we all knew Trump had wormed out of paying tax, and that he might not be as rich as he claimed, but now we know just how bad he's doing.

The cultists won't be swayed by this, as it will only reach them after being carefully filtered and spun by the alternative media, but more rational people, fence-sitters, just might think twice about re-electing a man who's on the verge of personal bankruptcy.
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Old 28th September 2020, 06:29 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
If you are only talking about his core sycophants, that wasn't my point. Those people are not going to care about the NYT's exposé.
Okay we need to address this.

Everytime someone applies... like amoeba level pattern recognition to the last 4 years of politics and makes the minimally observant observation that nothing is shifting support for Trump outside of the margin of error of the polls despite all the insane things that keep happening this is always the retort.

"Oh I'm not talking about this core group of supporters. Of course their opinions won't be changed. No I'm talking about..."

About who? Finish that thought. Who? Who are you talking about? And an answer is going to require explaining how you know they even exist.

538 and 270 and Reuters and AP and NBC and ABC and all those organizations that are showing these same trends of just literally nothing affecting Trump's "40% +/- the margin of error of the poll" level of support which has stayed exactly the same since the moron got the nomination aren't somehow magically going around asking people who are already sure about how they think of Trump to the point that nothing can change their mind and no one else.

These are polls of "X number of Americans." or "Y Number of Likely Voters" or "Z Number of Registered voters." They aren't going out of their way to only talk to people whose minds are made up. If the "effect" was there, these polls would show it. Like they do this for a living you know?

There are swing voters. There are undecided voters. There are fence sitters. What there is not is a magical tipping point demographic of people having their opinions changed about Trump who all just up and decided to never talk to pollsters but who are magically going to decide to show up at the polls in about a month.

2016 was a game of inches in the margins of a few counties. 2020 will be the same. There will be no "wave."
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Old 28th September 2020, 06:36 AM   #153
Regnad Kcin
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
He pays more on his hair than in taxes. Very meme-able, I think.
Challenge accepted.
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Old 28th September 2020, 06:38 AM   #154
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Hope that Democrats resist the urge to jeer Trump for being broke. The real story is that he's a tax cheat.

Mocking someone for being broke not exactly a crowd pleaser, especially in the current economy.
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Old 28th September 2020, 06:40 AM   #155
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I think most people get why Trump being broke is a different "thing" from your cousin working two minimum wage jobs just to pay rent being broke.
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Old 28th September 2020, 06:41 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Hope that Democrats resist the urge to jeer Trump for being broke. The real story is that he's a tax cheat.

Mocking someone for being broke not exactly a crowd pleaser, especially in the current economy.
But surely if a man with a very good brain, who knows more about so many things than anybody and works harder than anyone, can be broke there are some pretty serious flaws in the system, no?
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Old 28th September 2020, 06:41 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think most people get why Trump being broke is a different "thing" from your cousin working two minimum wage jobs just to pay rent being broke.
Given the successful decades-long propaganda campaign of labelling democrats as out of touch big city elitists, they shouldn't go within 100 miles of trying to poor shame anyone.

The fraud is the meat of the issue. Anything else is off message.
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Old 28th September 2020, 06:46 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
2016 was a game of inches in the margins of a few counties. 2020 will be the same. There will be no "wave."
The margin will be wider but the accounting of the margin will be done differently (more mail-in ballots with different issues in counting them, in-person voting may fail in places, frivolous voting fraud claims will be raised, voter suppression may be more effective) and we don't know how that will turn out. If enough of the differences favor Trump, we may end up with, say, twice the margin as last time, but an election that still appears as close as 2016.

So by all appearances, we may still have exactly the situation above.
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Old 28th September 2020, 06:48 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Someone on CNN said Biden should hand Trump a check for $750 at the debate and say he heard he needed a loan.
now _that's_ funny!
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Old 28th September 2020, 06:49 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Biden should come on with two stacks of bills, put them on his podium, then point to the smallest one and say "taxes" and then point to the pile that is nearly ten times bigger and say "hairspray".
for the record, it's closer to 100 times bigger
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