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Old 28th September 2020, 12:15 PM   #281
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It boils down to credibility. In this case, we have the NYT with its long history of excellent investigative journalism. It has won 130 Pulitzer prizes. On the other hand, we have Donald Trump who holds the record for number of lies told by any president: 20,000+ in less than 4 years.

We also have the fact that the NYT would be subject to a defamation suit should they be publishing false information about Trump without the evidence to back it up and have a team of excellent lawyers who would have vetted all information. Gee.....let me see whom I would believe...the NYT or Trump....hmmm.....
Then when they put out their data for peer review, I will be confident that they did not falsify it.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:20 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Claims without presented evidence are rejected.
It's difficult to say someone's lying when all they've provided to begin with is innuendo - that the NYT's alleged refusal to turn over documents means whatever they say must be taken with a grain of salt.

But that comment was made after the poster cited a claim by a Trump lawyer that he apparently implicitly believe - that the NYT refused to turn over the documents - which it has no ethical, moral or legal obligation to do. Unlike Trump, who clearly said many times he would release the documents ASAP.

His lawyers or accountants could easily figure out which documents the NYT has. Crying about how the NYT won't give them to you is a typical chicken**** Trump ploy which will be duly amplified, a little bit on ISF and a lot on more Trump-friendly media.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:30 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
But that comment was made after the poster cited a claim by a Trump lawyer that he apparently implicitly believe - that the NYT refused to turn over the documents - which it has no ethical, moral or legal obligation to do. Unlike Trump, who clearly said many times he would release the documents ASAP.
The error is in thinking that this is just one presidential administration like any other. Everything produced by this administration (particularly that which comes directly from Trump or his spokespeople) should be treated as if it were coming straight out of Baghdad Bob's mouth* & tentatively dismissed until it can otherwise be confirmed.


* Heck, Baghdad Bob probably couldn't compete with Trump when it comes to untrustworthiness.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:33 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Tomorrow night I hope Biden says something along the lines of...

Are you the biggest loser in the history of business, or a tax cheat? The American people deserve to know.
Wouldn't give him that choice. Tees up the "I follow all laws successful / good attorneys" response.

Better to just bring up his being a fraud as a businessman. That way Trump has to bring up that he looks like a cheat but really isn't. Make Trump do the heavy lifting. Explaining is losing.

Quote:



The $70,000 you deducted for your haircuts is more than most Americans make in two years working full time.
That route makes Trump look like a baller. Trump's excesses are a losing issue.

Better to bring up the amount and maybe lightly imply he was ripped off seeing his hair is preposterous. Getting Trump to angerly rant about his own hair could actually move the needle. Like "You spend seventy thousand dollars on your hair" with an emphasis and slight raised eyebrow on "your."

There is so much material here for Biden to provoke Trump into madness while seeming folksy and not mean about it. Let the material do the work and don't try to explain why it is bad. Just lay it out there.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:36 PM   #285
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Lionel Hutz wouldn't fall for this kind of "Well technically speaking my client never said..." level of nonsense.

There's a reason mob guys can't really go "Nice place you go here, be a shame if something happened to it...." instead of "Pay me protection money or I'll burn your store to the ground" and get away with it.

The Legal System of the United States is pedantic, it's not lawful stupid.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:37 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
So do you.
That doesn't contradict anything I said. What you pay and what you owe aren't the same. Claims were made about what Trump paid, and those claims were wrong.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:38 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That doesn't contradict anything I said. What you pay and what you owe aren't the same. Claims were made about what Trump paid, and those claims were wrong.
It contradicts everything you said and you aren't going to start a side argument about it.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:38 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I did. Did you notice the millions he got from Duterte, Modi and Erdogan?
That's quite the logical leap from "It came from the Phillipines" to "it came from Duterte", etc.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:40 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It contradicts everything you said
Before you were being, as you phrased it, selectively honest. Now you're actually lying.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:40 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then when they put out their data for peer review, I will be confident that they did not falsify it.
They have. The data is there, they say how they have the data.

Trump is a peer in this case. If he has data showing the NYT data is false, he can speak up.

Otherwise he would be implicit in any fraud that is happening. In this case the silence bolsters the NYT credibility. This isn't a criminal case.

Not yet, anyway.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:44 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Including one for Walter Duranty.
LOL. Yep, one bad Pulitzer from 1934 out of 130 certainly balances out 20,000+ lies told in less than 4 years told by Trump. You got me there!

Quote:
Well, no. The lawyers should check that what they print matches the information they have. The lawyers do not have to confirm the information they have is correct, let alone complete.
You don't think the lawyers didn't look at the tax returns? You don't think they didn't have tax experts look at the tax returns? Of course they did. T

Quote:
It's very, very hard for a public figure like Trump to win a defamation suit in the US, even when the information in question is provably wrong.
In this case it wouldn't be all that difficult since "injury" wouldn't be that hard to prove. It's right before the election and the numbers would have to be clearly incorrect (which is what Trump's lawyers are claiming).


Quote:
That being said, I have no problem with provisionally accepting the NYT's story as being accurate, but likely not complete. Not seeing much scandal here, though.
Then why did you bother with your original post?
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:45 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Before you were being, as you phrased it, selectively honest. Now you're actually lying.
Your god-king is a massive tax fraud. Watching you try to pettifog your way out of it is just sad.

At this point watching people defend Trump is like watching a woman explain to me that her husband wouldn't have given her a black eye if she just hadn't burned the roast.

You can't even think of any new ways to distract from him anymore so you just attract attention to yourself so the discussion has to stop while we call you out on our dishonest arguments. Senpai is not going to notice you, stop catching arrows meant for him with your own body.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 28th September 2020 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:46 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
They have. The data is there, they say how they have the data.

Trump is a peer in this case. If he has data showing the NYT data is false, he can speak up.

Otherwise he would be implicit in any fraud that is happening. In this case the silence bolsters the NYT credibility. This isn't a criminal case.

Not yet, anyway.
That is not the peer review process.

I'm not going to accept someone's word on it.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:49 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That doesn't contradict anything I said. What you pay and what you owe aren't the same. Claims were made about what Trump paid, and those claims were wrong.
Now you're just being silly. Most of us use the terms interchangeably because we pay what we owe when we owe it, and we don't pay more than we owe if we don't have to. The correct word might be overpaid. The fact is that he manipulated credits and deductions to reduce his actual tax due that year to $750, and he asked that his overpayments be credited to future years. He could probably have requested a fat refund, and if he didn't it's not clear why.

And all that is without considering his exaggeration of his losses and expenses, like paying "consulting fees" to people who were his employees.

Last edited by Bob001; 28th September 2020 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:49 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If Trump asks his followers for money he'll get it.
He's been calling my house 3 times a day for weeks if not months. Hasn't worked yet.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:51 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then when they put out their data for peer review, I will be confident that they did not falsify it.
When Trump releases his tax returns,...oh, wait....I can just stop there, can't I?

There's a reason he's been fighting so hard not release them and we're beginning to see why. But this is just the tip of the iceberg.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:51 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
When Trump releases his tax returns,...oh, wait....I can just stop there, can't I?

There's a reason he's been fighting so hard not release them and we're beginning to see why. But this is just the tip of the iceberg.
I reject the claims made by every side.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:52 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
He's been calling my house 3 times a day for weeks if not months. Hasn't worked yet.
I like to think you aren't one of his followers.

But these people paid 20 million to a shyster to get his wall built. If Trump gets on TV and does the whole televangelist routine, he'll make bank.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:54 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That is not the peer review process.
Prove it.

And remember, your word isn't enough.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:56 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Prove it.

And remember, your word isn't enough.
I'm cool not fulfilling that burden and you rejecting my claim. I prefer it, actually.
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:01 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
We also have the fact that the NYT would be subject to a defamation suit should they be publishing false information about Trump without the evidence to back it up and have a team of excellent lawyers who would have vetted all information. Gee.....let me see whom I would believe...the NYT or Trump....hmmm.....
On the lawsuit ... a defamation suit would be a tough sell. It's a very, very high bar if you're dealing with a public figure.
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:14 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
1. I doubt Trump thinks, much less that far ahead.
2. I doubt it will matter. Trump is not scared of getting caught in some paradoxical "gotcha" moment. He'll tell his supporters one thing, then turn and in the same breathe tell the IRS another, and he will not lose a second of sleep over it. Telling two things at once has worked for him so far, no reason to think it will stop.

I wasnít meaning that it would cause him to lose support rather that out of his narcissism he will open himself up to prosecution for tax matters.
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:16 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I wasn’t meaning that it would cause him to lose support rather that out of his narcissism he will open himself up to prosecution for tax matters.
Prosecution by who?

Only the Senate, SCOTUS, or, arguably, the Justice Department has any legal recourse against a standing President and Trump owns all three of them.

And if Trump is no longer the President and/or the Dems take the Senate come January his tax returns are going to be on way far down on the list of things they are going to after him on.
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:17 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
On the lawsuit ... a defamation suit would be a tough sell. It's a very, very high bar if you're dealing with a public figure.
That's certainly true. But Trump has long used lawsuits as a tool of intimidation. Even if a suit gets thrown out, the target has to spend time and money defending himself. If/when he wins he might be awarded compensation for his expenses, but that's never guaranteed. Meanwhile, during the months, maybe years, that the suit winds its way through the courts, Trump can say "That guy's lying and I'm suing him for it!" Sounds good to his base.
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:17 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I wasnít meaning that it would cause him to lose support rather that out of his narcissism he will open himself up to prosecution for tax matters.
I saw something today saying the "willful" requirement of tax crimes really makes it difficult.
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:21 PM   #306
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Abraham Lincoln paid 3x more in taxes in 1864 than Donald Trump in 2016. Not more as a share of his income. More in taxes. Lincoln paid $1981.67 in federal taxes in 1864-1865.
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:27 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
The error is in thinking that this is just one presidential administration like any other. Everything produced by this administration (particularly that which comes directly from Trump or his spokespeople) should be treated as if it were coming straight out of Baghdad Bob's mouth* & tentatively dismissed until it can otherwise be confirmed.


* Heck, Baghdad Bob probably couldn't compete with Trump when it comes to untrustworthiness.
I've detected in some Trump allies a reluctance to utter factually incorrect sentences. IIRC Bill Barr for a while, and Kavanaugh danced around quite a few questions not only from the hearings but from Fox News. Can't remember right now what the exact issue was, but I'd remember if I looked at a transcript. Trump doesn't exercise that degree of prudence.

A lot of times I do see claims of lies that don't stand up to scrutiny. People can imply all kinds of things without saying anything outright. Pompeo didn't lie when he said, "It is worth noting that Bangladesh is NOT Ukraine." But his implication was that a reporter couldn't find Ukraine on a map.

I spent a career cutting through manipulative use of language like this. "It is worth noting" is one of those wonderful clauses that allows people to throw out technically correct whoppers. Passive voice is another way to do this. "Last I checked." I've often thought of compiling a list of "top 100 clauses that will allow you to Technically Not Lie." I sometimes envy people who can pull this crap off because I can't.

One poster, now departed, wound people up for pages and pages saying Trump didn't "promise" to release his tax returns, because he never uttered the word "promise." I am so literal about this stuff that I probably would not claim he promised, either. I'd find another way to say it. I'm a little nuts that way. But colloquially, if you say, "Absolutely I will (do something)," that's a promise.
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:31 PM   #308
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Sarah Huckabee Sanders also did pretty well with the technique of Not Technically Lying when she said one thing about the U.S.-Mexico border, then segued into how thousands of terrorists had been caught trying to enter the U.S. But at that point, she was talking about airports. Chris Wallace nailed her on it. It takes persistence because people can get pretty damn good at that weaseling crap.
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:32 PM   #309
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Some people are running full speed into the post-fact world, others are being dragged kicking and screaming and will hold on longer and tighter to the security blankets of pedantics and technicalities.

It makes no matter once they wind up there.
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:38 PM   #310
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Interestingly the N.Y. Times has released the data: the summaries of reported income, reported debts, reported deductions, for various aspects of the Trump empire for each year. They just havenít released the many reams of individual details that probably run to hundreds of pages. If we had these details how would that make it more convincing? They could make that up too if they were making up stuff.

Most scientific manuscripts contain comparable summaries of the raw data, such as statistical means and variation analyses of individual data points from multiple experimental repeats.

In all cases the peers in peer review have to trust that the data presented, summaries or individually, were what the authors saw and that the experiments were performed as the authors said there were. As a peer reviewer I could look for suspicious results and ask for more detail but there was no way to check that lane one of the gel was loaded with the control and lane two with the kinase treated sample as the authors stated in the figure legend. There are no security cameras in labs peering over every experimentorís shoulders when they prepared and ran each experiment. I had to trust the authors at that fundamental level.

Honestly the alleged contrast of anonymous sources vs. peer review science publications is bogus.
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:38 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Some people are running full speed into the post-fact world, others are being dragged kicking and screaming and will hold on longer and tighter to the security blankets of pedantics and technicalities.

It makes no matter once they wind up there.
You seem more cynical lately. Everything (relatively) all right?
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:39 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Honestly the alleged contrast of anonymous sources vs. peer review science publications is bogus.
Because distracting us into another subtopic is the only defense they have.

We know Trump drowned the man in the sparkling wine. The only thing left for his defenders to argue about is whether or not it was technically champagne.
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:41 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because distracting us into another subtopic is the only defense they have.

We know Trump drowned the man in the sparkling wine. The only thing left for his defenders to argue about is whether or not it was technically champagne.
Do you think I'm a defender? I can tell you I did not vote for him and do not plan to.
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:42 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's quite the logical leap from "It came from the Phillipines" to "it came from Duterte", etc.
Oh my word! All three of those countries are dictatorships (including India currently). So where do you think the money came from? I don't think the Philippines has any more of Imelda's shoes to sell.
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:42 PM   #315
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Interestingly the N.Y. Times has released the data: the summaries of reported income, reported debts, reported deductions, for various aspects of the Trump empire for each year. They just havenít released the many reams of individual details that probably run to hundreds of pages. If we had these details how would that make it more convincing? They could make that up too if they were making up stuff.

Most scientific manuscripts contain comparable summaries of the raw data, such as statistical means and variation analyses of individual data points from multiple experimental repeats.

In all cases the peers in peer review have to trust that the data presented, summaries or individually, were what the authors saw and that the experiments were performed as the authors said there were. As a peer reviewer I could look for suspicious results and ask for more detail but there was no way to check that lane one of the gel was loaded with the control and lane two with the kinase treated sample as the authors stated in the figure legend. There are no security cameras in labs peering over every experimentorís shoulders when they prepared and ran each experiment. I had to trust the authors at that fundamental level.

Honestly the alleged contrast of anonymous sources vs. peer review science publications is bogus.
Can you get the raw data?
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:43 PM   #316
JoeMorgue
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do you think I'm a defender? I can tell you I did not vote for him and do not plan to.
I'm sure your online persona "Has no opinion" about Trump.
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:43 PM   #317
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Now you're just being silly. Most of us use the terms interchangeably because we pay what we owe when we owe it, and we don't pay more than we owe if we don't have to.
Most people don't have very complex taxes, and when they do overpay they tend to get it back as a refund. Trump does have very complex taxes, and he didn't get back his overpayment as a refund.

Quote:
The correct word might be overpaid. The fact is that he manipulated credits and deductions to reduce his actual tax due that year to $750, and he asked that his overpayments be credited to future years. He could probably have requested a fat refund, and if he didn't it's not clear why.
He used it as a carryover to apply to future taxes, because (get this) he expected his future taxes to be larger.

Which is why focusing on one or two years of his liability being really low is disingenuous.

Quote:
And all that is without considering his exaggeration of his losses and expenses, like paying "consulting fees" to people who were his employees.
Kind of like the Clintons deducting their donation of used underwear?

If that wasn't kosher, then by all means, the IRS should go after him for it. But nobody here is in a position to really evaluate that.
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:43 PM   #318
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm sure your online persona "Has no opinion" about Trump.
I give my opinion of him, regularly.
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:47 PM   #319
Giordano
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because distracting us into another subtopic is the only defense they have.

We know Trump drowned the man in the sparkling wine. The only thing left for his defenders to argue about is whether or not it was technically champagne.
I donít even get the point of defending him here. His defenders agree he is a sleazy crook. Itís just trying to score points in a high school denationalized club. Or getting a rise from members such as myself.
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Old 28th September 2020, 01:52 PM   #320
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I don’t even get the point of defending him here. His defenders agree he is a sleazy crook. It’s just trying to score points in a high school denationalized club. Or getting a rise from members such as myself.
There really isn't any purpose for these threads other than to score points. I don't think it is far out to say that the many people saying this is an indictment of Trump do not actually have some decision that will be affected by this information. This information is about as significant as trivia.
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