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Old 2nd October 2020, 02:01 AM   #41
zooterkin
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I went looking for good arguments for banning flag burning. The argument is mostly that people really care about it as a symbol for them.

But the more people really, really, really care about this thing that is so symbolic, the more clear it becomes that burning it is a symbolic act of speech communicating something.

1) is anti flag burning one of the worst cases of special pleading?

2) what is the best argument you can come up with for banning flag burning?
What do you mean by ‘flag burning’?
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Old 2nd October 2020, 07:18 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What do you mean by ‘flag burning’?

Firework flags in fireworks displays only exist while burning.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 02:42 PM   #43
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There is no good argument for banning flag burning. It is a clear first amendment right so long as it's your flag you are burning. Burning someone else's flag, it becomes a case of vansalims/petty theft.
That being said, burnkng the Ammerican Flag in a protest is just abut the stupidest thing you can do. No better way to alienate huge groups of people and have them write you off as a kook.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 03:38 PM   #44
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A quick survey of flags in front of houses in my neighborhood (there are rather more than I thought) show that a large percentage are made of artificial fibers or plastic sheet. These emit toxic compounds when burned in a simple fire. Also, a lot of damage was caused by fires across the western US this year.

That's the best reasons I could come up with. At most it'd require a "shall issue" license or an attachment of liability for damages, with perhaps limitations to areas not currently under a "no open fires" burn restriction.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 03:38 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
There is no good argument for banning flag burning
Not even the safety and hate speech arguments?
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Old 2nd October 2020, 04:03 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What do you mean by ‘flag burning’?
If you can manage to get a decent answer to that question, then please let the rest of us know.

Thanks.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 05:23 PM   #47
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If flag burning is made illegal, I want to make some heavy-duty asbestos flags so they can be set on fire and not be burnt.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 09:39 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by paiute View Post
If flag burning is made illegal, I want to make some heavy-duty asbestos flags so they can be set on fire and not be burnt.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...n_6977458.html
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Old 2nd October 2020, 09:43 PM   #49
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Is it an insult or a compliment to burn the flag of the Fire Nation?
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Old 2nd October 2020, 10:07 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Is it an insult or a compliment to burn the flag of the Fire Nation?
It depends on when in the timeline you burn it, in-universe.

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Old 4th October 2020, 12:32 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by paiute View Post
If flag burning is made illegal, I want to make some heavy-duty asbestos flags so they can be set on fire and not be burnt.
I'm pretty sure that if flag burning were made illegal, lighting an asbestos flag on fire would violate the law.
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Old 4th October 2020, 12:35 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Carbon monoxide is produced when flags are burnt! Will no-one think of the children?
The amount of carbon monoxide generated really depends on how well oxygenated the fire is, but burning a flag (unless it's made out of a really exotic material), will invariably produce carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas.
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Old 4th October 2020, 11:01 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not even the safety and hate speech arguments?
I don't think burning a flag in and of itself constitutes hate speech.
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Old 5th October 2020, 04:25 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
I don't think burning a flag in and of itself constitutes hate speech.
Which is exactly why I've asked the OP to clarify what he means by 'flag burning' for the purposes of this thread. Without that, how can we possibly have a sensible discussion?
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Old 5th October 2020, 05:20 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Which is exactly why I've asked the OP to clarify what he means by 'flag burning' for the purposes of this thread. Without that, how can we possibly have a sensible discussion?
Use whatever you want. I have no preference.
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Old 5th October 2020, 05:28 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Use whatever you want. I have no preference.
You started a thread without knowing what you want to talk about?
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Old 5th October 2020, 05:56 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You started a thread without knowing what you want to talk about?
I know what I want to talk about. But I don't feel that you are obligated to talk about what I want. I got enough info that I am satisfied. it is a free for all now as far as I am concerned.
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Old 5th October 2020, 09:07 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I know what I want to talk about.
That what I was asking about. Please elucidate.
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Old 5th October 2020, 09:11 AM   #59
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Bob we'll just start listing all the possible combinations of words in the English language. When we get to the topic you want to tell us that you don't have an opinion about, just stamp your left foot twice.
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Old 5th October 2020, 09:14 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not even the safety and hate speech arguments?
There are laws out there already about setting things on fire. The only laws that would fail are those targeted at the speech aspect or enforced in that way.

The second is a non-starter. There could be contexts where a burning flag is hate speech, but it is generally a statement of contempt for a governmental entity which is a whole different thing.

I mean, assuming hate speech is something we'd want to make illegal in the first place.
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Old 5th October 2020, 09:45 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
I don't think burning a flag in and of itself constitutes hate speech.
Neither do I. But banning flag burning as a hateful expression seems like a reasonable thing to me. Like, burning a flag in the privacy of your own backyard, sure. Burning a flag in someone else's front yard as an expression of hate and intimidation? Ban that, I say.
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Old 5th October 2020, 09:47 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
There are laws out there already about setting things on fire. The only laws that would fail are those targeted at the speech aspect or enforced in that way.

The second is a non-starter. There could be contexts where a burning flag is hate speech, but it is generally a statement of contempt for a governmental entity which is a whole different thing.

I mean, assuming hate speech is something we'd want to make illegal in the first place.
I'm undecided about the hate speech thing, but leaning more and more towards some limited prohibitions on it.

And yeah, I'm not suggesting a total ban on flag burning. I'm just saying that there are some contexts in which I think it's reasonable to prohibit it. Bob asked a question. That's my answer.
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Old 5th October 2020, 09:49 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I always worry that when the President gets too close to a bible, flag, or dictionary, that something is going to burst into flames.
Well, with any luck at all, it would be the President.
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Old 5th October 2020, 09:50 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
That what I was asking about. Please elucidate.
My curiosity has been satiated. I don't care what anyone discusses here anymore.
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Old 5th October 2020, 09:54 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Neither do I. But banning flag burning as a hateful expression seems like a reasonable thing to me. Like, burning a flag in the privacy of your own backyard, sure. Burning a flag in someone else's front yard as an expression of hate and intimidation? Ban that, I say.
You're not banning flag burning then. You're banning hateful expressions.

Does it matter that it's a flag being burnt? Wouldn't it be just as bad if it was a doll with a picture of the target on it? Or a piece of paper with the target's name on it?
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Old 5th October 2020, 10:00 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
There is no good argument for banning flag burning. It is a clear first amendment right so long as it's your flag you are burning. Burning someone else's flag, it becomes a case of vansalims/petty theft.
That being said, burnkng the Ammerican Flag in a protest is just abut the stupidest thing you can do. No better way to alienate huge groups of people and have them write you off as a kook.
A bit of a derail, but I have similar thoughts about kneeling for the National Anthem. I think the people doing it have every right to do so, and I in general support their cause, but why on earth would you want to choose a means of protest that is guaranteed to anger a large percentage of people who see it, some of whom might otherwise support you? I think it's a bad tactic for that reason.
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Old 5th October 2020, 10:13 AM   #67
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And that's why the discussion is dead in the water, because the level in which the discussion needs to take place ("What's the point of doing this and will it actually achieve any of the goals we want?") on is the level most modern discourse is incapable of keeping a discussion on.

"What do I have the right to do? What do other people have the right to make me or make me not do?" is the only level discussion can happen on anymore but, harsh truth, like 99% of human interactions take place on a different level.

This is an overarching sub-topic that's been on my mind a lot and I've never found a way to word it that would be able to gain any traction but in the broadest terms once we all agree as to what people "have" to do and "can't" (g)we always act like the hard part is done when the discussion hasn't even really started yet.
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Old 5th October 2020, 10:20 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And that's why the discussion is dead in the water, because the level in which the discussion needs to take place ("What's the point of doing this and will it actually achieve any of the goals we want?") on is the level most modern discourse is incapable of keeping a discussion on.

"What do I have the right to do? What do other people have the right to make me or make me not do?" is the only level discussion can happen on anymore but, harsh truth, like 99% of human interactions take place on a different level.

This is an overarching sub-topic that's been on my mind a lot and I've never found a way to word it that would be able to gain any traction but in the broadest terms once we all agree as to what people "have" to do and "can't" (g)we always act like the hard part is done when the discussion hasn't even really started yet.
Do you mean in a sense outside of the law?
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Old 5th October 2020, 10:23 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do you mean in a sense outside of the law?
You've already flounced from the discussion Bob.
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Old 5th October 2020, 10:34 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
A bit of a derail, but I have similar thoughts about kneeling for the National Anthem. I think the people doing it have every right to do so, and I in general support their cause, but why on earth would you want to choose a means of protest that is guaranteed to anger a large percentage of people who see it, some of whom might otherwise support you? I think it's a bad tactic for that reason.

Protest isn't about making people comfortable. It is about forcing people to see what they'd rather ignore. That is rarely pleasant for all involved.

Those that use the manner of protest as an excuse to not support the cause are just working out their shame. They know the cause is right but don't like the implications of it so why not get mad that they blocked traffic or knelt or whatever.
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Old 5th October 2020, 10:41 AM   #71
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While in general you are correct (and before anyone takes recent baggage and try to run with it in any direction you are absolutely correct in regards to current protests like BLM and Antifa) I don't think it's a given.

"I'm allowed to get annoyed by your methods without disapproving of your message" is a fairly universal value in the abstract I like to hope.

Again that's why I was getting at earlier. "It's your legal right to burn a flag in protest" is one thing. The whole "LOL flag burning? Why would anyone have any problem with that? It's totally incomprehensible to me why destroying a symbolic representation of the country you are currently in would ever attract any kind of reasonable dislike LOL" routine is another.
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Old 5th October 2020, 10:46 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Demanding respect for a flag is idolatry, attempting to elevate inanimate objects to the level of God. Veneration of a flag is a direct and mortal sin and a violation of the very first Commandment. Anyone who respects a flag is going to hell for it, unless they repent.

It may not be the best argument, but it's one that actually won court cases. Sometimes you gotta fight crazy with crazy.
I don’t believe in hell but I actually think this is a cogent argument. I did not know it had ever been used in court. In the Pledge of Allegiance, it’s not the God part that I most object to, it’s the flag part.
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Old 5th October 2020, 10:56 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
For what it's worth, the laws about respecting the flag apply specifically to the flag itself. Other things bearing the same pattern aren't flags, and aren't subject to the law.

Taking a flag and converting it into a poncho is illegal disrespect for the flag.

Taking a poncho and printing a flag-like pattern on it is not.
I don’t think it’s illegal. It violates the flag code, but that’s not a statute.
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Old 5th October 2020, 11:02 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"It's your legal right to burn a flag in protest" is one thing. The whole "LOL flag burning? Why would anyone have any problem with that? It's totally incomprehensible to me why destroying a symbolic representation of the country you are currently in would ever attract any kind of reasonable dislike LOL" routine is another.
Yeah, there is a weird assumption among some people as to how nonviolent protest has ever been effective. That it is a matter of enough people waiving clever signs and that is it.

I blame the co-opting of MLK by centrist liberals. Same with Gandhi. They romanticize protest while ignoring that protest works by causing tension, anger, and conflict that will often provoke a violent response.

What changes things is provoking the reactionaries and using that to seize the moral high ground. When you do this sometimes you take a beating in every sense. Physically, legally, verbally, whatever.

Without that protest is just a parade of people that think they are right.
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Old 5th October 2020, 11:06 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
While in general you are correct (and before anyone takes recent baggage and try to run with it in any direction you are absolutely correct in regards to current protests like BLM and Antifa) I don't think it's a given.

"I'm allowed to get annoyed by your methods without disapproving of your message" is a fairly universal value in the abstract I like to hope.

Again that's why I was getting at earlier. "It's your legal right to burn a flag in protest" is one thing. The whole "LOL flag burning? Why would anyone have any problem with that? It's totally incomprehensible to me why destroying a symbolic representation of the country you are currently in would ever attract any kind of reasonable dislike LOL" routine is another.
It just seems like if you dig deep enough, you will a find a reasonable reason to dislike everyone. Singling out one reason is excessively narrow.

For example, as much as we get along, you might not know I think taxation is theft. That might be a deal breaker for you
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Old 6th October 2020, 03:52 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
I don't think burning a flag in and of itself constitutes hate speech.
What if I, as a US citizen living in the United States, burned a Mexican flag? Would that be hate speech? What if I burned a Mexican flag at a pro-immigration demonstration because I was angry that Mexico was stopping Guatemalans who entered Mexico illegally? What if burned a Mexican flag at an anti-immigration demonstration because I was angry at Mexico for not stopping Guatemalans who traveled through Mexico to cross into the United States illegally?
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Old 6th October 2020, 03:58 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not even the safety and hate speech arguments?
The US has no legal category of "hate speech". It isn't a thing, thankfully.
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Old 6th October 2020, 07:13 PM   #78
Puppycow
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I can come up with two most excellent arguments:

1) It's unsafe.

2) It's hate speech.

If you own a warehouse full of fertilizer, you should probably ban flag burning in and around the warehouse. Likewise, you should probably ban flag burning in kindergarten classrooms and onboard airplanes (which are already unsafe enough as it is).

Going out in front of someone's home or church and burning a flag because you hate the people inside and want to send them a message of hatred and intimidation, should probably be banned. Likewise holding a march, parade, or other demonstration to protest against the people you hate, and burning a flag as part of that protest, should probably also be banned.
Well you can throw out No. 1, because there's no reason for a law specifically banning flag burning to address it. It could be a law against burning anything flammable.

The second one, or something similar is the only real argument: It hurts somebody's feelings when you do it. It makes people angry, and it's not good for people to be angry. That sort of thing can lead to violence. But if you accept that argument, then it's just a slippery slope to banning all sorts of speech if anyone deems it offensive. So ultimately, it's not a great argument, but it's the only real argument there is for it.

Which do we value more? Freedom of speech, or protecting people's feelings?
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Old 6th October 2020, 07:41 PM   #79
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I value freedom of speech. But I also recognize that incitement is a thing, and that it's a thing society could do without.

Anyway, am I the only one surprised at how non contentious this is thread has been, and how quickly the OP has been entirely conceded?
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Old 6th October 2020, 11:09 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Originally Posted by erlando View Post
I don't think burning a flag in and of itself constitutes hate speech.
What if I, as a US citizen living in the United States, burned a Mexican flag? Would that be hate speech? What if I burned a Mexican flag at a pro-immigration demonstration because I was angry that Mexico was stopping Guatemalans who entered Mexico illegally? What if burned a Mexican flag at an anti-immigration demonstration because I was angry at Mexico for not stopping Guatemalans who traveled through Mexico to cross into the United States illegally?

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/in-and-of-itself

Quote:
In and of itself is another way of saying “on its own” or “by its very nature.” For example, The final book in the series is, in and of itself, a great work of art.

The phrase is used for emphasis. It can be used to judge something out of its context or to emphasize the importance of considering something in its context.

Also see post #65
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Last edited by erlando; 6th October 2020 at 11:13 PM.
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