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10th April 2012, 10:40 AM | #1841 |
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Here are the relevant verses (Jonah 3:1 - 4):
And the word of [Yahweh] came to Jonah a second time, saying, "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city and preach to it the preaching that I bid thee." So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of [Yahweh]. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days journey And Jonah began to enter the city a day's journey, and he cried and said, "In forty days Nineveh shall be overthrown." The area in bold type is what's in question. Yes, the language is sufficiently vague that one might see it as only a days journey away, or that it was three days journey away. Since Nineveh is on the eastern bank of the Tigris River, about 500 miles from the eastern coast of the Mediterranean Sea, where the whale would have barfed up Jonah, and since about the best time Jonah could make in a day would have been about 15 miles, it couldn't have been three days journey to get there. Thus, it seems far more likely that what is meant in the passage is that the city was so huge, it would take three days to cross it. So Jonah walked about a third of the way into the city and began telling the Ninevites their city would be destroyed in 40 days. |
10th April 2012, 12:33 PM | #1842 |
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Billy Graham on the Book of Revelation
From his book Storm Warnings (pg. 71):
"We may not understand everything {about Revelation}-- but that does not mean we can't understand something... John wrote Revelation in a certain type of poetic language known as an apocalyptic language. An Apocalyptic writer ... was one who used vivid imagery and symbolism to speak about God’s judgment... The difficulty, of course, is that this style of writing, using vivid word pictures and symbols, is quite foreign to us today. Undoubtedly most of John’s first readers had little difficulty understanding what his symbols stood for and which of them were symbols and which were not. It takes careful study for us today to understand some of the more obscure parts of his message (much of it quoted from the Old Testament), and some of them we may never understand fully. Again this does not mean John’s message is lost to us today. The opposite is true. We will be richly rewarded when we take the trouble to dig into the treasures of Revelation. Don’t think of John’s vivid language as a barrier to understanding; see it instead as the way he painted the picture of God’s plan for the future in incredibly vivid colors.” |
10th April 2012, 12:39 PM | #1843 |
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10th April 2012, 12:55 PM | #1844 |
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Also called self-delusional rantings.
I'm guessing Billy Graham never read Naked Lunch. Of course. He was writing about current events. Yes. As an Apocalyptic Jew, he would be very reliant upon the Old Testament. Yup. There's some great books on it. http://www.amazon.com/Revelations-Vi...4087631&sr=8-1 Again, you should read Naked Lunch. It's loaded with vivid imagery. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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10th April 2012, 01:01 PM | #1845 |
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Mmm ... bug powder.
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10th April 2012, 01:57 PM | #1846 |
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10th April 2012, 09:48 PM | #1847 |
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10th April 2012, 10:55 PM | #1848 |
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How many zeros? Jabba |
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10th April 2012, 11:16 PM | #1849 |
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11th April 2012, 12:54 AM | #1850 |
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At least I have come around to DOC's point of view on one particular issue: This thread is not about him, or his opinions. It's about the opinions of the person or persons he meets once a week (bible class?). And possibly those of Billy Graham (and assorted presidents).
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11th April 2012, 01:33 AM | #1851 |
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11th April 2012, 02:14 AM | #1852 |
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11th April 2012, 04:00 AM | #1853 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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11th April 2012, 06:18 AM | #1854 |
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How many zeros? Jabba |
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11th April 2012, 07:13 AM | #1855 |
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11th April 2012, 07:20 AM | #1856 |
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11th April 2012, 07:25 AM | #1857 |
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11th April 2012, 07:46 AM | #1858 |
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11th April 2012, 07:54 AM | #1859 |
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Well, one has certainly been suggested by several posters here already.
If someone says a thousand year reign will happen soon, if it hasn't even begun two thousand years later then I think we're entitled to say the prophecy has failed. What specific prophecy are you referring to? |
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11th April 2012, 08:16 AM | #1860 |
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11th April 2012, 08:44 AM | #1861 |
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11th April 2012, 09:16 AM | #1862 |
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I think I'm beginning to understand what this is all about.
DOC, "come to pass" doesn't mean "proceed from start to finish". "Pass" itself might mean that: in the sense of "elapse"; but "come to pass" simply means "happen". A thousand year reign couldn't "pass" tomorrow, or "shortly", but it could come to pass - i.e. start to happen - tomorrow, or as shortly as the next five minutes for that matter. Google the expression "come to pass" and you will confirm the truth of this. So there is only one explanation of the come to pass shortly verse: it is a false prophecy, like the stars falling out of the sky image in Revelation. That won't happen because stars are much bigger than the earth, and not sparkly things affixed to a "firmament" not far above our heads, as John of Patmos supposed. |
11th April 2012, 09:38 AM | #1863 |
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11th April 2012, 10:03 AM | #1864 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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11th April 2012, 10:07 AM | #1865 |
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This thread would be a monumental waste of time if it wasn't so funny.
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11th April 2012, 10:13 AM | #1866 |
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11th April 2012, 10:20 AM | #1867 |
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11th April 2012, 10:51 AM | #1868 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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11th April 2012, 01:11 PM | #1869 |
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Of course, the thousand year reign comes at the end of all the horrors predicted in Revelation; after the four horsemen of the apocalypse have gone out to wreak destruction, after the star Wormwood has fallen into the sea, after most of the human race has been annihilated, and so on. It also takes place after the seven years of tribulation, the reign of the Beast, people being forced to take the mark of the Beast, etc.
Thus, that which must take place "soon" doesn't conflict with the millennial kingdom. The setting up of that kingdom would have been only seven years or so down the road from when John of Patmos penned his revelation. This fits with the prediction Jesus supposedly gave in the "Little Apocalypse," also called the "Olivet Discourse" (Mark 13:30): Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things be done. "All these things" include the sun and moon being darkened, stars falling from the sky, the Son of man appearing in the clouds and the angels gathering in the elect (Mk. 13:24 - 27). The usual dodge Christian apologists resort to this is brought up is to assert that "generation" (Gr. genaea) actually should be read as "people" (Gr. genos). Thus, this people," i.e. the Jews, will not pass away until these things happen. In other words, the only way to make the Bible prophecy "true" is to make the Bible not say what it actually says. |
11th April 2012, 01:31 PM | #1870 |
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11th April 2012, 01:36 PM | #1871 |
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11th April 2012, 03:24 PM | #1872 |
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''And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.''-Revelation
People are still dying Doc. When can we expect death to flee from us?. |
11th April 2012, 04:26 PM | #1873 |
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It doesn't say will start soon, it says will come to pass soon. A thousand year reign can not come to pass soon so this implies the come to pass shortly applies to other things such such as things John wrote will happen to the 7 churches he immediately started to talk about.
Plus the fact Christ said go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. There are millions of people living today who have never heard the gospel. There is an implication there that the end will not happen until every person alive has at least had a chance to hear the gospel. And the official recognized bible of the church was not determined until 398 A.D. at the Council of Carthage by hundreds of bishops. This is about 300 years after John wrote Revelation. Those bishops could have simply dropped Revelation from the bible if they were concerned about the "come to pass shortly" wording written 300 years earlier. They must have not been that concerned because the many bishops chose to include Revelation as part of the official cannon of the Church. |
11th April 2012, 04:29 PM | #1874 |
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11th April 2012, 04:42 PM | #1875 |
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That's what that means.
"He didn't say six. he said Half a dozen!"
Quote:
yup. It didn't happen soon. Hence failed prophecy. They had their own motivations for it. I'm interested in reading Pagel's book to find out more about it. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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11th April 2012, 04:47 PM | #1876 |
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Doc, can you provide us with glossary of the alternative meanings that you give to words? We know what soon means but you appear to have another definition.
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11th April 2012, 04:57 PM | #1877 |
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11th April 2012, 04:57 PM | #1878 |
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I've made a start on Doc's glossary.
Anytime in the next few thousand years= soon Total failure= fulfilled bible prophecy Never= come to pass |
11th April 2012, 05:00 PM | #1879 |
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The thousand year reign Doc. You can find the meaning of the word soon in any dictionary.
''The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John'' Soon take place Doc, not in a few thousand years. A failed prophecy. Why are you incapable of understanding that? |
11th April 2012, 05:01 PM | #1880 |
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DOC: Why do you even care when the end will come?
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