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Old 28th June 2012, 09:50 AM   #1
CplFerro
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How many Christians would die for their faith?

Any guesses?

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Old 28th June 2012, 10:43 AM   #2
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I'd say roughly the same percentage as is average in the human race for people to want to die for their beliefs. One in a million? Less? Of course this percentage varies with local circumstances, the worse your life the more likely you are willing to go to extremes.
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Old 28th June 2012, 10:52 AM   #3
aggle-rithm
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
I'd say roughly the same percentage as is average in the human race for people to want to die for their beliefs. One in a million? Less? Of course this percentage varies with local circumstances, the worse your life the more likely you are willing to go to extremes.
There are some countries, particularly a few in Africa, where being a Christian means taking your life in your hands. It's not quite the same thing as being a Christian in the "developed" world.
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Old 28th June 2012, 01:03 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
Any guesses?

Cpl Ferro
Not near as many as would have you die for their faith.
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Old 28th June 2012, 01:12 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by aggle-rithm View Post
There are some countries, particularly a few in Africa, where being a Christian means taking your life in your hands. It's not quite the same thing as being a Christian in the "developed" world.
Exactly, so I'd guess you'd find a far greater amount of christians in such countries willing to die for their faith than in random western european/US suburbia where being christian might mean going to church on christmas.
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Old 28th June 2012, 01:27 PM   #6
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All of the religiously inclined should die for their religions and let the rest of us get on with enjoying life.
And it would solve the population problem at the same time
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Old 28th June 2012, 02:05 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by George152 View Post
All of the religiously inclined should die for their religions and let the rest of us get on with enjoying life.
And it would solve the population problem at the same time
Nope. Won't work. It follows the same argument regarding criminals, where they should be shipped off to an island and sort it out for themselves.

In one sense - Earth is the island, and that is precisely what we are involved with, like it or not.

Wishing the problem away wont solve it.

I call it Hitler Syndrome.

Solve a presumed problem based on the inferior belief that he was not part of the problem and the problem existed in other people, and his solution to the perceived problem was a problem in itself...the same problem in fact.

Gross result.

Problem not solved.
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Old 28th June 2012, 02:12 PM   #8
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This is probably the next-to-last place you'd find a useful answer to your question.

What's the point of this, anyway?
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Old 28th June 2012, 02:27 PM   #9
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seeing as hospitals are full of people trying to avoid going to heaven....
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Old 28th June 2012, 03:11 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Phrost View Post
This is probably the next-to-last place you'd find a useful answer to your question.

What's the point of this, anyway?
Dear Phrost,

I'm estimating the population of Heaven, post Judgement Day. So far its 1 God, 3 Persons, 2/3 of however many angels we started with, and X number of martyrs.

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Old 28th June 2012, 03:36 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Voodoosix View Post
seeing as hospitals are full of people trying to avoid going to heaven....
Back in my believer days, I saw many a fellow church member get a diagnosis of cancer. Instead of cheering and being happy that they were going to 'go home' and be with Christ, every single one of them asked for prayers and availed themselves of the latest medical science in an attempt live a bit longer.

Dunno, they sure didn't seem too excited about dying for their faith. Or with their faith.
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Old 28th June 2012, 06:53 PM   #12
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Applying the Inverse No True Scotsman Principle, I have to say that it would be all of them.
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Old 28th June 2012, 07:32 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Voodoosix View Post
seeing as hospitals are full of people trying to avoid going to heaven....
Big fan of your work on Youtube.

I made this point about the last Pope.

Also I question why there aren't more religious people offing themselves or their children before the children have a chance to ruin themselves.

Quote:
Applying the Inverse No True Scotsman Principle, I have to say that it would be all of them.
No false Scotsman?
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Old 28th June 2012, 08:19 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Not near as many as would have you die for their faith.
This.

Indeed, it's hard to imagine a religious group more into faith-based killing these days than Christians.

And staying on topic: Let's not overlook all those Christians around the world who are more than happy to die for their faith if it means taking a few unbelievers with them.

... what?
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Old 29th June 2012, 03:46 AM   #15
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Th story of Kane and Abel springs to mind with Penn Jillette's commentary. something like: 'If you're willing to kill your son for your faith you're a deluded !@#% and stay away from me'
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Old 29th June 2012, 04:25 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by c4llum View Post
Th story of Kane and Abel springs to mind with Penn Jillette's commentary. something like: 'If you're willing to kill your son for your faith you're a deluded !@#% and stay away from me'
I don't think that's the one that springs to most people's minds.
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Old 29th June 2012, 04:33 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
I don't think that's the one that springs to most people's minds.
It's probably the story of Abraham and his son.
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Old 29th June 2012, 04:33 AM   #18
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"Everybody wants to go to Heaven, but nobody wants to die." <some country singer, and many others I'm sure>

Come to think of it, maybe that's why the fundies like the concept of the rapture so much. They don't have to die, just get sucked up to Heaven. No fuss, no muss.

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Old 29th June 2012, 05:43 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by c4llum View Post
Th story of Kane and Abel springs to mind with Penn Jillette's commentary. something like: 'If you're willing to kill your son for your faith you're a deluded !@#% and stay away from me'
Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
I don't think that's the one that springs to most people's minds.
Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp View Post
It's probably the story of Abraham and his son.
Erm...I realise it's more important to criticise christianity than to know anything about it, and I assure I'm no christian nor any kind of preacher, but I think what sphensic might have meant was not the sacrifice of jewish sons for a jewish god, but the core of christianity itself...



As for the OP, I'm told that heaven will hold 144,000 (and the rest will live on earth). I understand there's a biblical reference for that. I met one of them, once, many years ago, when invited to a Jehovah's Witness meeting (I thought I ought to at least look, rather than simply dismiss it as madness...although I did ultimately dismiss it as madness). They have a 'christmas' ritual which involves the passing round of a plate of biscuits or such, but you only take one if you're destined for heaven rather than eternal life on earth. The one congregant who took one could have been predicted if I'd thought to, and that wouldn't have been a million dollar skill - it was simply the holiest of the holier-than-thous.
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Old 29th June 2012, 06:08 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by jiggeryqua View Post
... but I think what sphensic might have meant was not the sacrifice of jewish sons for a jewish god, but the core of christianity itself...
Actually no, I'm pretty certain that Penn Jillette was referring to the story of Abraham and Isaac, though due to weak google-fu I can't find the exact quote.

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Old 29th June 2012, 06:25 AM   #21
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The typical conditions for traditional martyrdom are unusual these days. How many princes and governors are hauling people before the court and demanding, "renounce Christ or die!"? This can happen in times and places where Christians are a persecuted minority and considered a threat to the state, and in such times and places, by all accounts, numerous Christians were indeed willing to choose the latter option.

In the present day, there are relatively few such places, but there are some where Christians are persecuted, and persecution frequently includes at least the threat of murder. But that's more like taking a deadly risk implicit in acting in accordance with one's faith, and losing, than a direct choice to die by affirming Christianity. Does taking such a risk and being unlucky qualify as dying for your faith? If so, then Christians dying for their faith isn't unusual at all, from a missionary knowingly going to some part of the world hostile to Christian missionaries and being murdered, to a Christian social services volunteer who gets killed by a schizophrenic client, to any random traffic death of a Christian on her way to church.

Is there a point to the question? Or is it just a set-up to bash Christianity either way? (If many Christians are willing to die for their faith, it shows how dangerously fanatical they are; if few are, then it shows how insincere they all are.)

Respectfully,
Myriad
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Old 29th June 2012, 06:35 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp View Post
It's probably the story of Abraham and his son.
haha yea, got the spelling wrong. whoops!
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Old 29th June 2012, 06:56 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
The typical conditions for traditional martyrdom are unusual these days. How many princes and governors are hauling people before the court and demanding, "renounce Christ or die!"? This can happen in times and places where Christians are a persecuted minority and considered a threat to the state, and in such times and places, by all accounts, numerous Christians were indeed willing to choose the latter option.

In the present day, there are relatively few such places, but there are some where Christians are persecuted, and persecution frequently includes at least the threat of murder. But that's more like taking a deadly risk implicit in acting in accordance with one's faith, and losing, than a direct choice to die by affirming Christianity. Does taking such a risk and being unlucky qualify as dying for your faith? If so, then Christians dying for their faith isn't unusual at all, from a missionary knowingly going to some part of the world hostile to Christian missionaries and being murdered, to a Christian social services volunteer who gets killed by a schizophrenic client, to any random traffic death of a Christian on her way to church.

Is there a point to the question? Or is it just a set-up to bash Christianity either way? (If many Christians are willing to die for their faith, it shows how dangerously fanatical they are; if few are, then it shows how insincere they all are.)
Dear Myriad,

I don't think getting run over on the way to church counts as dying for one's faith!

Martyrdom is the only way I can think of to test for true faith. Anything else means the person might be bluffing. "No greater love" and all that.

Cpl Ferro
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Old 29th June 2012, 07:05 AM   #24
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Dying for one's faith is an interesting sub-meme. It seeme evolutionarily counterproductive, but it is rarely effected and, meannwhile is looked on positvely and thus spread, it becomes akin to genetically identical ants that sacrifice themselves when called on. The gene perserveres even as it sacrifices copies of itself by design.

Or the meme, in this case. Note also the primacy of the mental information block over the genetic one. DNA is only one of several evolving information blocks working together, or competing, as the case may be.
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Old 29th June 2012, 07:20 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by I am Bigfoot View Post
Big fan of your work on Youtube.

I made this point about the last Pope.

Also I question why there aren't more religious people offing themselves or their children before the children have a chance to ruin themselves.
Well, it is a mortal sin... now.

AFAIK, Christianity originally did not have a prohibition on suicides. The church added this prohibition to its doctrine some time after Rome Christianized -- precisely because people were offing themselves in droves, as a short cut to salvation.
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Old 29th June 2012, 10:19 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
I don't think getting run over on the way to church counts as dying for one's faith!

Fair enough. But what about a Christian who volunteers as a missionary to a part of the world that's known to be unstable and dangerous, and gets killed in a guerilla brushfire attack? Many would call that martyrdom.

But neither the missionary nor the unlucky church-goer expected to die, and both died as a specific result of performing what they saw as a religious duty or calling. So where do you drawn the line between them? Is 1-in-10,000 odds of dying enough to call it martyrdom if you get unlucky? How about 1-in-100? Or does death have to be a certainty (which would rule out my hypothetical missionary, as well as numerous official martyr saints who were not offered a chance to disavow Christianity and live, but were simply murdered, or captured and executed, in the course of dangerous religious activity)?

Respectfully,
Myriad
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Old 29th June 2012, 10:54 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Not near as many as would have you die for their faith.
I would like to nominate this post for pith. Is that still around?
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Old 30th June 2012, 12:22 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Fair enough. But what about a Christian who volunteers as a missionary to a part of the world that's known to be unstable and dangerous, and gets killed in a guerilla brushfire attack? Many would call that martyrdom.

But neither the missionary nor the unlucky church-goer expected to die, and both died as a specific result of performing what they saw as a religious duty or calling. So where do you drawn the line between them? Is 1-in-10,000 odds of dying enough to call it martyrdom if you get unlucky? How about 1-in-100? Or does death have to be a certainty (which would rule out my hypothetical missionary, as well as numerous official martyr saints who were not offered a chance to disavow Christianity and live, but were simply murdered, or captured and executed, in the course of dangerous religious activity)?
Dear Myriad,

I would only consider the matter clinched if the prospective martyr were specifically murdered for being Christian. It's the only way to be sure.

Cpl Ferro
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Old 30th June 2012, 12:26 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by CplFerro View Post
Dear Myriad,

I would only consider the matter clinched if the prospective martyr were specifically murdered for being Christian. It's the only way to be sure.

Cpl Ferro
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