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Old 29th June 2012, 01:33 PM   #1
Humes fork
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Are Sagan and Dawkins so different on religion?

Accommodationists like to pit Carl Sagan against Richard Dawkins, claiming that the former was an excellent science popularizer and communicator while the latter is a disaster due to not being shy of admitting to being an atheist.

But are the Sagan and Dawkins approaches really so different? I don't think so. Both have tried to popularize science, both have emphasized the need for evidence for beliefs (this being contrary to faith). In The Demon-Haunted World, Sagan compares gods to:

- Comic book superheroes: "Pseudoscience speaks to powerful emotional needs that science often leaves unfulfilled. It caters to fantasies about personal powers we lack and long for (like those attributed to comic book superheroes today, and earlier, to the gods)."

- Aliens: "So in an age when traditional religions have been under withering fire from science, is it not natural to wrap up the old gods and demons in scientific raiment and call them aliens?"

- Hallucinations: "Perhaps when everyone knows that gods come down to Earth, we hallucinate gods; when all of us are familiar with demons, it's incubi and succubi; when fairies are widely accepted, we see fairies; in an age of spiritualism, we encounter spirits; and when the old myths fade and we begin thinking that extraterrestrial beings are plausible, then that's where our hypnogogic imagery tends."

I think the difference between Dawkins and Sagan on religion is that Dawkins goes head-on to refute religion, while Sagan only alluded to it, letting the reader figure it out by itself. Which happens. I've read of people who lost their faith due to reading The Demon-Haunted World and Why People Believe Weird Things.
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Old 29th June 2012, 04:11 PM   #2
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I've read plenty of Sagan's works, and I never took him as particularly accommodationist. On the contrary, I recall that he flat out stated that he could find no justification for gods on numerous occasions. The only real difference seems to be that the gnu atheist movement hadn't happened in Sagan's time, so the religious didn't feel quite so threatened and therefor didn't need to demonize him.
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Old 29th June 2012, 10:36 PM   #3
Susheel
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Originally Posted by Irony View Post
I've read plenty of Sagan's works, and I never took him as particularly accommodationist. On the contrary, I recall that he flat out stated that he could find no justification for gods on numerous occasions. The only real difference seems to be that the gnu atheist movement hadn't happened in Sagan's time, so the religious didn't feel quite so threatened and therefor didn't need to demonize him.
I agree, his Broca's Brain would be a case in point. He was no accomodationist. However, I doubt Sagan in his time had to deal with decisions on science education being hijacked by creationists in the magnitude it is being done today. He didn't have to deal with a President who openly stated that he gets his mandate from god and that on the question of evolution, "the jury is still out." Dawkins is reacting to an intellectual environment vastly different from what Sagan had to contend with.
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Old 30th June 2012, 05:34 AM   #4
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I think Dawkins is more aggressive and lacks the tact and humility Sagan displayed, but they agree with each other fundamentaly. Recently Sagan's widow and son have released a book putting Sagan's speeches and audience interactions at the Gifford lectures into text, The Search for God. It's as persuasive an argument for atheism as anything Hitchens or Dawkin's put to words. But I think Sagan viewed the word "atheist" as being too certain and was the type of person who recognized some kind of distinction between atheism and agnosticism, as if they were mutually exclusive, based on the way Ann Druyan has spoken of the word in her talks with Neils deGrass Tyson.
When it comes down to it though I see no difference in their philosophies.
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Old 30th June 2012, 05:57 AM   #5
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I don't think they're different. Dawkins just makes atheism more of a public cause than Sagan did. Hell, I don't even think that Dawkins and Gould were different in any way that matters.
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Old 30th June 2012, 06:27 AM   #6
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I think Sagan was far more a humanist than Dawkins. In his book Contact it was a major plot point that the scientists who undertake the trip have nothing but faith in their senses to prove anything they experienced was real.

Last edited by MG1962; 30th June 2012 at 06:32 AM.
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Old 30th June 2012, 09:17 AM   #7
not_so_new
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
I think Sagan was far more a humanist than Dawkins. In his book Contact it was a major plot point that the scientists who undertake the trip have nothing but faith in their senses to prove anything they experienced was real.
I actually like the movie well enough but the book is GREAT.

The movie (in the typical populist Hollywood way) tries to make the point that science is just an extension of religion because it relies on nothing but faith and belief.

The book actually follows some of the same lines but the scientists have more to go on, it's not nearly as much of a leap of faith, its faith in the evidence.

I have not read the book since it came out (it's been a while) but I found myself agreeing with Sagan in the book and being annoyed by that part of the movie. Its a subtle but important change and I think this subtly in Sagan's work is what characterizes the difference between him and Dawkins.

Actually, it is this subtly coupled with his intelligence and boyish fascination that always draws me in. Sagan is one of my personal heroes.
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