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Old 22nd March 2012, 04:40 AM   #1481
zooterkin
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
If I became convinced that Nebuchadrezzar and Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Tyre, my behaviour wouldn't change in any significant way.
Yes, sorry. I was just curious as to whether Nebuchadrezzar with an 'r' was a typo or a recognised variant, or a different person. Growing up, I always heard it with an 'n', but the 'r' variant seems quite common here.

ETA: And you've answered that now, too, thanks!
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Old 22nd March 2012, 05:12 AM   #1482
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If you were convinced how would your behavior change.
Interesting question.

If I ever found the "Eureka" prophecy that convinced me that prophecy was real...

...and that led me to think that God must be real...

...I don't presently see how my day-to-day behavior would change one iota.

I mean, yesterday I did not rob or lie or cheat or deceive or commit adultery or covet my neighbor's ass. Or the day before. Or the day before that.

I live a pretty darn moral life for its own rewards, not for any other reason.

Superficially, in guess if I found myself a member of the aforementioned Pantertown Church of Prophecy, my regular attendance going forward would be a "behavior change". Other than that, I'm already pretty darn righteous!
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Old 22nd March 2012, 06:04 AM   #1483
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If you were convinced how would your behavior change.
I don't understand your question.
Why should you demonstrating a successful prophecy change my behavior?


How does the fact that you haven't convinced anyone change your behavior?
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Old 22nd March 2012, 06:59 AM   #1484
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If you were convinced how would your behavior change.
It wouldn't. I already behave in a manner that I think is appropriate for the world I live in. (Except on Thursdays, of course, when my Viking ancestry grabs hold of me, and I go on the rampage, and pillage a village or two.)

And I would also like to know how you think people's behaviour would change, if you convinced them.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 07:14 AM   #1485
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Originally Posted by Helen View Post
It wouldn't. I already behave in a manner that I think is appropriate for the world I live in. (Except on Thursdays, of course, when my Viking ancestry grabs hold of me, and I go on the rampage, and pillage a village or two.)

And I would also like to know how you think people's behaviour would change, if you convinced them.
Oh, you do it on Thursdays!? That explains why we never meet.

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Old 22nd March 2012, 07:33 AM   #1486
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
If I became convinced that Nebuchadrezzar destroyed Tyre, my behaviour wouldn't change in any significant way.
If many prophecies were fulfilled so that you thought there was something supernatural happening would that change your behavior?
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Old 22nd March 2012, 07:43 AM   #1487
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
I don't understand your question.
Why should you demonstrating a successful prophecy change my behavior?
If you thought the biblical prophets had tapped into something supernatural would that change your opinion about the bible?
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Old 22nd March 2012, 07:43 AM   #1488
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If many prophecies were fulfilled so that you thought there was something supernatural happening would that change your behavior?
Depends
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Old 22nd March 2012, 07:46 AM   #1489
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If many prophecies were fulfilled so that you thought there was something supernatural happening would that change your behavior?
If the laws of nature were sporadically being violated by a capricious Supreme Being, I guess my behavior might be modified a bit by my enhanced sense of uncertainty and paranoia.

It would turn the simplest thing (an elevator ride, let's say) into a leap of faith rather than a reasoned risk.

I'll go with the natural world for now and deal with the supernatural if and when it becomes an issue.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 07:47 AM   #1490
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
Depends
Briefs, for me.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 08:00 AM   #1491
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If many prophecies were fulfilled so that you thought there was something supernatural happening would that change your behavior?
Why should supernatural things change my behaviour? If the Haunted House really has a ghost in it, perhaps I wouldn't spend the night there, but not much else would change. What do you think ought to change?

Anyway, so many of the prophecies can be shown to be false (or absurd) that a supernatural origin seems improbable. If some supernatural being did something useful, like eliminate disease or war, then everybody's behaviour would change. But nothing of that kind has happened; and if there are in fact any supernatural forces or beings, they are extremely successful at concealing themselves.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 08:00 AM   #1492
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If you thought the biblical prophets had tapped into something supernatural would that change your opinion about the bible?
Would you?

I ask this honestly because I do not see how you can believe the bible is prophetic, yet you pick and choose what to follow in it.

You clearly don't support slavery, even though the old and new testament do.
You don't support monarchies, even though the old and new testaments do.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 08:14 AM   #1493
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Originally Posted by Helen View Post
It wouldn't. I already behave in a manner that I think is appropriate for the world I live in. (Except on Thursdays, of course, when my Viking ancestry grabs hold of me, and I go on the rampage, and pillage a village or two.)

And I would also like to know how you think people's behaviour would change, if you convinced them.
You would now pillage the village in god's name. With any luck and a good speaking voice you could get a bunch of like minded individuals together and start pillaging whole towns and cities in a Crusade or Jihad.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 08:20 AM   #1494
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Originally Posted by Helen View Post
It wouldn't. I already behave in a manner that I think is appropriate for the world I live in. (Except on Thursdays, of course, when my Viking ancestry grabs hold of me, and I go on the rampage, and pillage a village or two.)

And I would also like to know how you think people's behaviour would change, if you convinced them.


Ooooh.... where is that club....can I join despite not being of Viking ancestry.... my club can only do it to Palestinians and they are not fun anymore.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 08:30 AM   #1495
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Oh, you do it on Thursdays!? That explains why we never meet.

Hans
Don't tell me, you do it on Wednesdays, right? Let's sync our calendars, rampage is much more fun in company. And after a good day of pillaging, a friend or two to help carry the spoils is always good.

Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Ooooh.... where is that club....can I join despite not being of Viking ancestry.... my club can only do it to Palestinians and they are not fun anymore.
If you bring your own club you are more than welcome! We club indiscriminately, by the way. If they move, we club. If they don't move, we club. Makes it far easier to remember the rules.

See, converting people is easy. I think I've out-converted you already, DOC!
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Old 22nd March 2012, 08:32 AM   #1496
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
You would now pillage the village in god's name. With any luck and a good speaking voice you could get a bunch of like minded individuals together and start pillaging whole towns and cities in a Crusade or Jihad.
You just took the good, pagan fun out of pillaging...
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Old 22nd March 2012, 08:32 AM   #1497
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If you thought the biblical prophets had tapped into something supernatural would that change your opinion about the bible?

So this is no longer about evidence, but purely about beliefs? Good to know.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 08:35 AM   #1498
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
So this is no longer about evidence, but purely about beliefs? Good to know.
You assume too much. It was never about evidence.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 08:37 AM   #1499
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If many prophecies were fulfilled so that you thought there was something supernatural happening would that change your behavior?
If it were ever demonstrated that biblical prophecies have been fulfilled and it could only be because of supernatural mean, I would be more inclined to believe in the supernatural.

My behavior wouldn't change in the slightest. I still would not kill people I suspected of being witches. I still would not murder children for mocking their elders. I still would not brutally rape and murder my enemies. I still would not hold other humans in slavery.

How would your behavior change if you were to realize that biblical prophecies have not been fulfilled, that it is only intellectual dishonesty and cognitive dissonance that cause people to believe they have been?
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Old 22nd March 2012, 08:42 AM   #1500
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Originally Posted by kmortis View Post
You assume too much. It was never about evidence.

I disagree. There has been a good deal of evidence in this thread...
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Old 22nd March 2012, 08:51 AM   #1501
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
I disagree. There has been a good deal of evidence in this thread...
Oh sure, posters have indeed posted evidence. That's secondary to the intent of the thread.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 09:31 AM   #1502
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
I disagree. There has been a good deal of evidence in this thread...
Yes, There is quite a lot of evidence supporting the argument that DOC has failed to demonstrate any 1 prophecy in the bible as being true.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 09:32 AM   #1503
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If many prophecies were fulfilled so that you thought there was something supernatural happening would that change your behavior?
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If you thought the biblical prophets had tapped into something supernatural would that change your opinion about the bible?

Say, how about an experiment? You post reliable evidence that there are many fulfilled Bible prophecies, or that the biblical prophets had "tapped into something supernatural", and we'll see if it changes anyone's behaviour or opinions.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 10:00 AM   #1504
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If many prophecies were fulfilled so that you thought there was something supernatural happening would that change your behavior?
No, because reality would have to cease to exist due to all the violations of the fundamental laws of physics that the prophecies and miracles would be violating. Pro-tip: The laws of physics pretty much make any 'super natural event' impossible.

Even if it didn't I wouldn't change my behavior if those things could be proven beyond any reasonable doubt. I don't steal, cheat, murder, commit adultery or covet my neighbor's wife and I still wouldn't after.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If you thought the biblical prophets had tapped into something supernatural would that change your opinion about the bible?
No, it would only serve to reinforce my opinions about the Bible.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 10:02 AM   #1505
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I feel this comparison is important, and should be brought to attention.

DOC, notice this conversation

Originally Posted by joobz View Post
Reupdated:
The tally so far...

DOC has successfully demonstrated a fullfilled biblical prophecy: 1
...
DOC has failed to demonstrate that biblical prophecies: 35
...
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
(here you make a claim that I am using argument ad populum. Clearly, you are aware of the fallacy and are trying to apply it here.

Originally Posted by joobz View Post
Your opinion is already noted.
Why don't you let the posts speak for themselves?
(Instead of restating the fact that my use of the poll isn't a logical fallacy, I merely use your own posting style against you.)

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Do you believe logical fallacies are opinions?
You respond once again with the claim that my post was a logical fallacy. So it is clear you are aware that use of argumentum ad populum IS a fallacy. That it isn't a defensible argument.


But then yesterday you make the following post in another thread.
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
You don't leave almost 7000 posts ignoring other people's posts. If someone has some evidence present it and let the readers make up their own minds. I don't have the time to comment on every person's post.



So I guess you feel the close to 600,000 hits my "Evidence for why we know the New Testament Writers told the truth" thread received were by people who just like reading my alleged illogical incoherent posts.

And once again my threads are not about me, but I guess if people keep trying the ad hom approach then I have the right to respond.

This is clearly an argumentum_ad_populum. Yet you used it.
You knowingly used it, even when you clearly know it is a fallacy to use it.
How do you defend such dishonesty?
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Old 22nd March 2012, 10:39 AM   #1506
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post

DOC, you posted:
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Originally Posted by joobz
Yes, this is true.
And as it stands, after those ~20 posts, you have still failed to demonstrate that the Tyre prophecy was fullfilled. Indeed, you have demonstrated that in order to support biblical prophecy, you are willing to challenge the very concept of pronouns and grammar.
Your opinion is noted but my posts are out there and people can make up their own mind.

Your implied claim that there are people who have read your posts and come to a different opinion means that the poll is entirely relevant to what I shall for the sake of convenience call your argument.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 10:46 AM   #1507
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
You clearly don't support slavery, even though the old and new testament do.
You don't support monarchies, even though the old and new testaments do.
I'm not so sure about that.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 11:00 AM   #1508
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Originally Posted by Helen View Post
You just took the good, pagan fun out of pillaging...
Isn't that what religion is for; to take the fun out of things?

sex = sin

eating = gluttony

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Old 22nd March 2012, 11:03 AM   #1509
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Originally Posted by Helen View Post
Don't tell me, you do it on Wednesdays, right? Let's sync our calendars, rampage is much more fun in company. And after a good day of pillaging, a friend or two to help carry the spoils is always good.


If you bring your own club you are more than welcome! We club indiscriminately, by the way. If they move, we club. If they don't move, we club. Makes it far easier to remember the rules.

See, converting people is easy. I think I've out-converted you already, DOC!
Sign me up for the Wednesday Pillaging Club.

The WPC is definitely out converting DOC.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 11:31 AM   #1510
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Yes, sorry. I was just curious as to whether Nebuchadrezzar with an 'r' was a typo or a recognised variant, or a different person. Growing up, I always heard it with an 'n', but the 'r' variant seems quite common here.

ETA: And you've answered that now, too, thanks!
The actual name of the monarch in question was Nabu-kidurri- user, which is an invocation to Nabu, patron deity of the Chaldeans. It means, "Nabu, protect the boundary-stone." This name was somewhat corrupted in Hebrew as Nebuchadrezzar. IIRC the Greeks called this king "Nabuchodonosser," which is the source of Nebuchadnezzar. Whenever you see this form, it means that either the text was written later or an earlier text was edited later, at a time of Greek influence, i.e. the Hellenistic period. If I' not mistaken, both forms of the name appear in Jeremiah. In 1 and 2 Kings it's always Nebuchadnezzar. However, the last entry in 2 Kings can be dated to about 560 BCE; so the later form of the name probably shows only later editing. The use of Nebuchadnezzar in the Book of Daniel is one of the many anachronisms that help s date the work to the Hellenistic period.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 11:47 AM   #1511
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If you thought the biblical prophets had tapped into something supernatural would that change your opinion about the bible?
They didn't plug into something that does not exist.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 11:51 AM   #1512
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If you thought the biblical prophets had tapped into something supernatural would that change your opinion about the bible?
If the biblical prophets had tapped into something supernatural they might have gotten some of their prophecies right. However:

1) Nahum only predicted the fall of Nineveh at the time the Medes and Chaldeans were closing in on the Assyrian capitol, and his prediction that the enemies of Assyria would enter the city by the river gates was wrong.

2) Isaiah and Jeremiah were wrong in predicting that the Medes (or Persians) would violently sack Babylon.

3) Ezekiel wrongly predicted Nebuchadrezzar would destroy Tyre.

4) Ezekiel wrongly predicted Nebuchadrezzar would invade and devastate Egypt, including the city of Thebes.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 11:54 AM   #1513
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
The actual name of the monarch in question was Nabu-kidurri- user, which is an invocation to Nabu, patron deity of the Chaldeans. It means, "Nabu, protect the boundary-stone." This name was somewhat corrupted in Hebrew as Nebuchadrezzar. IIRC the Greeks called this king "Nabuchodonosser," which is the source of Nebuchadnezzar. Whenever you see this form, it means that either the text was written later or an earlier text was edited later, at a time of Greek influence, i.e. the Hellenistic period. If I' not mistaken, both forms of the name appear in Jeremiah. In 1 and 2 Kings it's always Nebuchadnezzar. However, the last entry in 2 Kings can be dated to about 560 BCE; so the later form of the name probably shows only later editing. The use of Nebuchadnezzar in the Book of Daniel is one of the many anachronisms that help s date the work to the Hellenistic period.
Aha, many thanks, that explains it. The story of Daniel is the main place I would have heard the name.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 11:59 AM   #1514
Craig B
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
The use of Nebuchadnezzar in the Book of Daniel is one of the many anachronisms that help s date the work to the Hellenistic period.
So Daniel was "prophesying" the past, most of the time. That can't please the apocalypticists among the fundies, who set great store by the utterances in this book. And yet another blow against the "supernatural Bible" dogma.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 12:12 PM   #1515
pakeha
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If many prophecies were fulfilled so that you thought there was something supernatural happening would that change your behavior?
If?
Is DOC saying there's some doubt in his mind the propfecies were fulfilled?
This is good, DOC and I support you in this long journey.

Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
If the biblical prophets had tapped into something supernatural they might have gotten some of their prophecies right. ...
Even one.
But that's not the case, is it, DOC?
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Old 22nd March 2012, 12:30 PM   #1516
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Do you believe logical fallacies are opinions?

Seriously, DOC, you introduced the argumentum ad populum when you posted (my emphasis):
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Your opinion is noted but my posts are out there and people can make up their own mind.

Then, having been well and truly hoist by your own petard, you had the nerve to come back and claim that joobz had planted it.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 12:37 PM   #1517
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Sign me up for the Wednesday Pillaging Club.

The WPC is definitely out converting DOC.
But will there be cake?
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Old 22nd March 2012, 12:51 PM   #1518
kmortis
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
But will there be cake?
Depends on the area pillaged, don't it?
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Old 22nd March 2012, 12:54 PM   #1519
Lucian
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
But will there be cake?
Baked with flour from the ground bones of our enemies! At least that's how we do it in my Ladies who Pillage club.
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Old 22nd March 2012, 12:59 PM   #1520
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
But will there be cake?
No, because the cake is a lie. However there will be pie.
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