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4th April 2012, 04:18 AM | #1721 |
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My point with the Jonah story was that if the prophecy did not come true, it was because God determined that the sincere free will decision by the city and its king to repent trumped the importance of the prophecy coming true and God thus decided not to punish the people as Jonah implied would happen.
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4th April 2012, 04:18 AM | #1722 |
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4th April 2012, 04:32 AM | #1723 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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4th April 2012, 04:39 AM | #1724 |
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4th April 2012, 04:44 AM | #1725 |
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what about it? Are you suggesting that we haven't discussed that list and found it lacking?
Such an insinuation would be highly dishonest. ETA: DOC, I see you have changed your post. That is fine. Please note that you are repeating information that has already been discussed. Your revision of your post gives the impression that this is new ground, which is completely not true. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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4th April 2012, 04:45 AM | #1726 |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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4th April 2012, 05:12 AM | #1727 |
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For anyone confused: DOC re-wrote the post after it was quoted. Actually, he re-wrote it at the same time Joobz and zooterkin we quoting it. Post number 10 provides the same link as the re-written post. So, unlike other occasions where DOC altered the meaning intentionally, this time the revision cannot be held against him because a) the meaning was not changed, and b) he likely didn't see the replies. Post 10 is quoted below: |
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4th April 2012, 06:02 AM | #1728 |
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It's worth noting that, much like DOC's google books links, the google groups link doesn't work for everyone either.
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4th April 2012, 07:16 AM | #1729 |
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4th April 2012, 07:48 AM | #1730 |
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I would say "repent or die" is not a free will decision. That would be akin to me robbing you at gunpoint and then saying that you freely decided to give me your valuables.
Besides the prophecy not coming true is by definition the prophecy failing. Yep. Somehow. |
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4th April 2012, 08:25 AM | #1731 |
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I can say, based upon the evidence, that DOC has failed miserably at convincing anyone that a single biblical prophecy vame true.
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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4th April 2012, 08:49 AM | #1732 |
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A man swallowed by a big fish, and surviving in its belly for three days. An ancient city three days' journey in diameter. Its king commands the people to make their goats and sheep wear sackcloth. Do you really believe any of this?
Evidently you do! And you have cause to think that most Christians also believe it to be factually true. How can such fatuity be so widespread in the mightiest country the world has ever seen, whose military power bestrides the globe, and whose scholars design machines that have explored every planet in the solar system? |
4th April 2012, 09:50 AM | #1733 |
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4th April 2012, 11:45 AM | #1734 |
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4th April 2012, 12:39 PM | #1735 |
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How many zeros? Jabba |
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4th April 2012, 12:46 PM | #1736 |
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Reupdated Our Poll to include DOC's New question.
DOC has successfully demonstrated a fullfilled biblical prophecy: 1 DOC DOC has failed to demonstrate that biblical prophecies have been fullfilled. 41 Joobz Foster Zygote jond abaddon mashuna zooterkin Mojo Lucian Amazer Helen Filippo Lippi Hokulele RoboTimbo FastEddieB joseph8th kmortis x RobDegraves Elizabeth I Lukraak_Sisser Mudcat ddt Mister Agenda* Whose opinion DOC labeled as Unbiased catsmate tsig Leumas Brainache Welshdean Rincewind Multivac pakeha dafydd TimCallahan Wildy Lrrr Cantab Sezme AdMan Alice Shortcake Sun Countess Agatha Doc has successfullly demonstrated that the OT is largely made up of incomprehensible gibberish: 13 Lucian Helen kmortis ddt Leumas Mudcat Welshdean Rincewind Multivac Brainache pakeha Cantab Sezme So you don't believe any of these[prophecies in a google list] came true? No:6 zooterkin joobz kerikiwi pakeha Mojo dafydd So you don't believe any of these[prophecies in a google list] came true? Yes:0 ETA: Added a name.... |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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4th April 2012, 12:48 PM | #1737 |
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So you aren't willing to join Google Lists to read about biblical prophecy?
No. |
4th April 2012, 01:13 PM | #1738 |
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4th April 2012, 01:14 PM | #1739 |
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4th April 2012, 01:20 PM | #1740 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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4th April 2012, 02:38 PM | #1741 |
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4th April 2012, 02:59 PM | #1742 |
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4th April 2012, 03:55 PM | #1743 |
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"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP |
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4th April 2012, 03:57 PM | #1744 |
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Well I suppose I should give you credit for posting a link which is accessible outside the US, it saves me from reminding you that the US is less than 5% of the world's population.
No, I don't believe any of those prophecies "came true" if by "came true" you mean they were prophesied prior to the event, and have extra-biblical proof of occurrence. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that your meaning of "came true" is somewhat different. The bible is not proof of anything; it's a collection of stories which were written after the fact, and it has been altered and edited several times until it ended up as the 66 books we have today, in several different versions. You cannot point to it as evidence of anything which it contains, this is circular reasoning. You'll have studied circular reasoning in that logic course you claim to have taken. |
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4th April 2012, 04:10 PM | #1745 |
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"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP |
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4th April 2012, 07:05 PM | #1746 |
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4th April 2012, 07:32 PM | #1747 |
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DOC, if you see the Book of Jonah as being historical, do you accept the following as true?
1) Jonah was swallowed by a great fish, in which he lived for three days. 2) Nineveh was so large it took three days to cross it. |
4th April 2012, 07:36 PM | #1748 |
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4th April 2012, 07:44 PM | #1749 |
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Absolutely not.
Quote:
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See, here's your problem. If you are going to trace your genealogy all the way back through Joseph to David, then Joe boy must be the father. But if you are going with the Holy Spook, then Joe boy is not the father at all, so you cannot claim the genealogy. Not to mention the given genealogies don't even match. So your choice is this, Holy Spook, therefore not descended from David, or born out of wedlock (there is a word for that). Pick one. |
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4th April 2012, 08:18 PM | #1750 |
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4th April 2012, 08:26 PM | #1751 |
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4th April 2012, 08:41 PM | #1752 |
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4th April 2012, 11:13 PM | #1753 |
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How many zeros? Jabba |
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5th April 2012, 01:43 AM | #1754 |
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5th April 2012, 02:00 AM | #1755 |
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I don't know how "simple" it is for an omniscient being to change his mind. Why would he do it? Because he has obtained new information? Because he realises he made a mistake? In fact I can't imagine how an omnipresent, omniscient entity can make any changes of state at all. He can't move from place to place (he's everywhere) or learn anything (he already knows it).
As to an omniscient being deciding to repent ... Well, my far-from-omniscient brain can't handle that concept at all. DOC, can you help me with this one? |
5th April 2012, 05:48 AM | #1756 |
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With regard to taking three days to go from one end of Ninevah to the other, I always read that as Jonah taking three days to go into every neighbourhood in the city and preach his message. Does anyone else here see that as a legitimate interpretation?
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The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) |
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5th April 2012, 06:08 AM | #1757 |
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5th April 2012, 06:25 AM | #1758 |
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See also The Skeptical Review at http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/2city92.html
Quote:
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5th April 2012, 11:16 AM | #1760 |
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The tl;dr version is basically that some of the stuff in this list one could believe is true simply because it's blatantly obvious, like the Messiah being a Jew. Others like the massacre of the children are examples of a misreading or misunderstanding of existing "prophetic" works and others, like item 1 on this list, are examples of non-prophecies being turned into prophecies.
Well let's take a look at these prophecies:
Originally Posted by Some list, most likely DOC back in 2008
Originally Posted by That list again
Originally Posted by Even more list
Originally Posted by A bunch of points from that list
I don't see how the Genesis verse is a "prophecy". I would consider the Numbers verse to be an example of a failed prophecy especially when read in context since it is prophesying things that didn't happen. Perhaps the part where Jesus crushed the foreheads of Moab and the Shethite skulls was supposed to be in the sequel. I would consider the Jeremiah prophecy to be another failed one since it's rather apparent that Jesus didn't reign as king.
Originally Posted by Yet more list
Originally Posted by Why couldn't this part of the list be point 7 so I could more easily group the genealogy bits?
And if Isaiah 11:1 was fulfilled then why didn't the stuff in 11:4-10 happen? I would just like to point out that the mutual exclusivity of prophecies 2 and 3 also applies to prophecies 4-6 and 8. Either 2 is correct and by default prophecies 3-6, 8 are wrong, or 3-6, 8 are correct and 2 is wrong.
Originally Posted by The list 2, the shoehorning
Originally Posted by More shoehorning from the list
Summary so far So far we have at least two "prophecies" that are stupidly obvious, and one more that can be added depending on your interpretation. (1, 7; 2) Six "prophecies" that are exclusive in a way that either one or five of them are wrong. (2-6, 8) Two "prophecies" where the initial "prophecy" don't count as prophecies. (1, 4) Four "prophecies" which predict things that didn't end up happening (5, 6, 8, 9) One "prophecy" which when read in context has nothing to do with Jesus (10) But there are still more "prophecies" to go:
Originally Posted by The list, where imaginary verses are presented as "evidence"
Originally Posted by Wherein psalms are quoted
Originally Posted by Where we learn "Jesus" means "Immanuel" even though it doesn't
Originally Posted by Prophety list
Originally Posted by Priestly list
Originally Posted by Judgedly list
Originally Posted by Kingly list
Originally Posted by Spiritually annointed list
Originally Posted by Zealous list
Summary for this section You may have noticed that I didn't really talk about the "prophecies" in this section. That's because of the nine prophecies in this section, only one, number 18 comes anything close to a "prophecy" and is one that nobody except Jesus can prove true. Every other "prophecy" in this section are just verses that have been turned into "prophecies" after the fact, either by the gospel authors themselves or by others later on trying to show the "prophetic nature" of Jesus' appearance. The fact that what we're seeing here is a bunch of out of context verses being pushed as "prophecies" really suggests that a lot of barrel scraping had to happen in order to show that "prophecies" have been fulfilled. I might go through the rest of the list but I'm bored now. |
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