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Old 10th April 2012, 10:40 AM   #1841
TimCallahan
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Are we sure that the Nineveh passage is about the size of the city? I guess I'm reading the passage wrong because I would have thought that it was saying that the city was three days away from wherever Jonah was at the time. But if that's right then it just raises even more questions.
Here are the relevant verses (Jonah 3:1 - 4):

And the word of [Yahweh] came to Jonah a second time, saying, "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city and preach to it the preaching that I bid thee." So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of [Yahweh]. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days journey And Jonah began to enter the city a day's journey, and he cried and said, "In forty days Nineveh shall be overthrown."

The area in bold type is what's in question. Yes, the language is sufficiently vague that one might see it as only a days journey away, or that it was three days journey away.

Since Nineveh is on the eastern bank of the Tigris River, about 500 miles from the eastern coast of the Mediterranean Sea, where the whale would have barfed up Jonah, and since about the best time Jonah could make in a day would have been about 15 miles, it couldn't have been three days journey to get there. Thus, it seems far more likely that what is meant in the passage is that the city was so huge, it would take three days to cross it. So Jonah walked about a third of the way into the city and began telling the Ninevites their city would be destroyed in 40 days.

Last edited by TimCallahan; 10th April 2012 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 10th April 2012, 12:33 PM   #1842
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Billy Graham on the Book of Revelation

From his book Storm Warnings (pg. 71):

"We may not understand everything {about Revelation}-- but that does not mean we can't understand something... John wrote Revelation in a certain type of poetic language known as an apocalyptic language. An Apocalyptic writer ... was one who used vivid imagery and symbolism to speak about God’s judgment... The difficulty, of course, is that this style of writing, using vivid word pictures and symbols, is quite foreign to us today. Undoubtedly most of John’s first readers had little difficulty understanding what his symbols stood for and which of them were symbols and which were not. It takes careful study for us today to understand some of the more obscure parts of his message (much of it quoted from the Old Testament), and some of them we may never understand fully.
Again this does not mean John’s message is lost to us today. The opposite is true. We will be richly rewarded when we take the trouble to dig into the treasures of Revelation. Don’t think of John’s vivid language as a barrier to understanding; see it instead as the way he painted the picture of God’s plan for the future in incredibly vivid colors.”
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Old 10th April 2012, 12:39 PM   #1843
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
From his book Storm Warnings (pg. 71):

"Don’t think of John’s vivid language as a barrier to understanding; see it instead as the way he painted the picture of God’s plan for the future in incredibly vivid colors.”

Yup.

http://www.bricktestament.com/revelation/index.html
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Old 10th April 2012, 12:55 PM   #1844
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
type of poetic language known as an apocalyptic language.
Also called self-delusional rantings.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The difficulty, of course, is that this style of writing, using vivid word pictures and symbols, is quite foreign to us today.
I'm guessing Billy Graham never read Naked Lunch.


Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Undoubtedly most of John’s first readers had little difficulty understanding what his symbols stood for and which of them were symbols and which were not.
Of course. He was writing about current events.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
It takes careful study for us today to understand some of the more obscure parts of his message (much of it quoted from the Old Testament),
Yes. As an Apocalyptic Jew, he would be very reliant upon the Old Testament.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Again this does not mean John’s message is lost to us today. The opposite is true. We will be richly rewarded when we take the trouble to dig into the treasures of Revelation.
Yup. There's some great books on it.
http://www.amazon.com/Revelations-Vi...4087631&sr=8-1

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Don’t think of John’s vivid language as a barrier to understanding; see it instead as the way he painted the picture of God’s plan for the future in incredibly vivid colors.”
Again, you should read Naked Lunch. It's loaded with vivid imagery.
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Old 10th April 2012, 01:01 PM   #1845
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Mmm ... bug powder.
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Old 10th April 2012, 01:57 PM   #1846
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
From his book Storm Warnings (pg. 71):

... the way he painted the picture of God’s plan for the future in incredibly vivid colors.”
The plan that the dragon in my garage has for the future could also be painted in incredibly vivid colours.
The dragon is still an imaginary being.
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Old 10th April 2012, 09:48 PM   #1847
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
From his book Storm Warnings (pg. 71):

"We may not understand everything {about Revelation}-- but that does not mean we can't understand something... John wrote Revelation in a certain type of poetic language known as an apocalyptic language. An Apocalyptic writer ... was one who used vivid imagery and symbolism to speak about God’s judgment... The difficulty, of course, is that this style of writing, using vivid word pictures and symbols, is quite foreign to us today. Undoubtedly most of John’s first readers had little difficulty understanding what his symbols stood for and which of them were symbols and which were not. It takes careful study for us today to understand some of the more obscure parts of his message (much of it quoted from the Old Testament), and some of them we may never understand fully.
Again this does not mean John’s message is lost to us today. The opposite is true. We will be richly rewarded when we take the trouble to dig into the treasures of Revelation. Don’t think of John’s vivid language as a barrier to understanding; see it instead as the way he painted the picture of God’s plan for the future in incredibly vivid colors.”
The first verse of Revelation still says that it describes, " . . . what must soon come to pass." Do you see Revelation as an already fulfilled prophecy?
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Old 10th April 2012, 10:55 PM   #1848
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
From his book Storm Warnings (pg. 71):

...Don’t think of John’s vivid language as a barrier to understanding; see it instead as the way he painted the picture of God’s plan for the future in incredibly vivid colors.”
What does this have to do with the bible's fulfilled prophecies, DOC?
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Old 10th April 2012, 11:16 PM   #1849
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
What does this have to do with the bible's fulfilled prophecies, DOC?
Straw grasping.
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Old 11th April 2012, 12:54 AM   #1850
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At least I have come around to DOC's point of view on one particular issue: This thread is not about him, or his opinions. It's about the opinions of the person or persons he meets once a week (bible class?). And possibly those of Billy Graham (and assorted presidents).
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Old 11th April 2012, 01:33 AM   #1851
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
The first verse of Revelation still says that it describes, " . . . what must soon come to pass." Do you see Revelation as an already fulfilled prophecy?
A Jehovah's Witness once argued with me that the Second Coming would be soon, on the strength of this verse. In the Bible it says soon, and that was good enough for him.
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Old 11th April 2012, 02:14 AM   #1852
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
The first verse of Revelation still says that it describes, " . . . what must soon come to pass."
Sound weasel-y already.

To paraphrase William Jeffrson Clinton...

"It depends on what your definition of "soon" is.

Or to paraphrase the definition of insanity...

"Prophesying the same thing over and over and expecting a result eventually..."
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Old 11th April 2012, 04:00 AM   #1853
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
What does this have to do with the bible's fulfilled prophecies, DOC?
Considering it hasn't "soon come to pass", it is clearly another failed prophecy.
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Old 11th April 2012, 06:18 AM   #1854
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Quote:
pakeha
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Quote:
From his book Storm Warnings (pg. 71):

...Don’t think of John’s vivid language as a barrier to understanding; see it instead as the way he painted the picture of God’s plan for the future in incredibly vivid colors.”
What does this have to do with the bible's fulfilled prophecies, DOC?

Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Straw grasping.
Originally Posted by Helen View Post
At least I have come around to DOC's point of view on one particular issue: This thread is not about him, or his opinions. It's about the opinions of the person or persons he meets once a week (bible class?). And possibly those of Billy Graham (and assorted presidents).
Originally Posted by joobz View Post
Considering it hasn't "soon come to pass", it is clearly another failed prophecy.

Hmmm. All three answers make sense at this point.
I confess to some degree of curiosity about DOC's reply.
I sense it's time for the 'gazillion manscripts' riposte again.
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Old 11th April 2012, 07:13 AM   #1855
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
Considering it hasn't "soon come to pass", it is clearly another failed prophecy.
What do you mean by "it", do you mean the thousand year reign John talks of must soon come to pass?

Last edited by DOC; 11th April 2012 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 11th April 2012, 07:20 AM   #1856
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
What do you mean by "it", do you mean the thousand year reign John talks of must soon come to pass?
It didn't come to pass, that is the point. Yet another failed bible prophecy.
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Old 11th April 2012, 07:25 AM   #1857
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
It didn't come to pass, that is the point. Yet another failed bible prophecy.
How can a thousand year reign come to pass soon, so there must be another explanation of the come to pass shortly verse. I'll give some other responses to this issue as time permits.
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Old 11th April 2012, 07:46 AM   #1858
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
How can a thousand year reign come to pass soon, so there must be another explanation of the come to pass shortly verse. I'll give some other responses to this issue as time permits.
You mean your response will come to pass shortly?
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Old 11th April 2012, 07:54 AM   #1859
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
How can a thousand year reign come to pass soon, so there must be another explanation of the come to pass shortly verse.
Well, one has certainly been suggested by several posters here already.

If someone says a thousand year reign will happen soon, if it hasn't even begun two thousand years later then I think we're entitled to say the prophecy has failed.

What specific prophecy are you referring to?
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Old 11th April 2012, 08:16 AM   #1860
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
How can a thousand year reign come to pass soon, so there must be another explanation of the come to pass shortly verse. I'll give some other responses to this issue as time permits.
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Well, one has certainly been suggested by several posters here already.

If someone says a thousand year reign will happen soon, if it hasn't even begun two thousand years later then I think we're entitled to say the prophecy has failed.

What specific prophecy are you referring to?
I'm sure DOC will soon have a reason why 1000 years is a long time, but 2000 years still counts as 'soon'.
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Old 11th April 2012, 08:44 AM   #1861
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
How can a thousand year reign come to pass soon, so there must be another explanation of the come to pass shortly verse. I'll give some other responses to this issue as time permits.
Soon means soon Doc, at least for the rest of humanity. Not for you though.
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Old 11th April 2012, 09:16 AM   #1862
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
How can a thousand year reign come to pass soon, so there must be another explanation of the come to pass shortly verse. I'll give some other responses to this issue as time permits.
I think I'm beginning to understand what this is all about.

DOC, "come to pass" doesn't mean "proceed from start to finish". "Pass" itself might mean that: in the sense of "elapse"; but "come to pass" simply means "happen". A thousand year reign couldn't "pass" tomorrow, or "shortly", but it could come to pass - i.e. start to happen - tomorrow, or as shortly as the next five minutes for that matter. Google the expression "come to pass" and you will confirm the truth of this.

So there is only one explanation of the come to pass shortly verse: it is a false prophecy, like the stars falling out of the sky image in Revelation. That won't happen because stars are much bigger than the earth, and not sparkly things affixed to a "firmament" not far above our heads, as John of Patmos supposed.
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Old 11th April 2012, 09:38 AM   #1863
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I think I'm beginning to understand what this is all about.

DOC, "come to pass" doesn't mean "proceed from start to finish". "Pass" itself might mean that: in the sense of "elapse"; but "come to pass" simply means "happen". A thousand year reign couldn't "pass" tomorrow, or "shortly", but it could come to pass - i.e. start to happen - tomorrow, or as shortly as the next five minutes for that matter. Google the expression "come to pass" and you will confirm the truth of this.

So there is only one explanation of the come to pass shortly verse: it is a false prophecy, like the stars falling out of the sky image in Revelation. That won't happen because stars are much bigger than the earth, and not sparkly things affixed to a "firmament" not far above our heads, as John of Patmos supposed.
I wonder which drugs John was on at the time.
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Old 11th April 2012, 10:03 AM   #1864
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
How can a thousand year reign come to pass soon...
By starting soon.
It's had 2000 years to start,
that's not soon.
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Old 11th April 2012, 10:07 AM   #1865
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This thread would be a monumental waste of time if it wasn't so funny.
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Old 11th April 2012, 10:13 AM   #1866
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
I wonder which drugs John was on at the time.
It's been said that Patmos contains hallucinogenic mushrooms.
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Old 11th April 2012, 10:20 AM   #1867
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
It's been said that Patmos contains hallucinogenic mushrooms.
Judging by the Book Of Revelation they must have been John's staple diet.
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Old 11th April 2012, 10:51 AM   #1868
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Judging by the Book Of Revelation they must have been John's staple diet.
I wasn't being entirely facetious when I mentioned Burroughs in relationship to John of Patmos.
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Old 11th April 2012, 01:11 PM   #1869
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
How can a thousand year reign come to pass soon, so there must be another explanation of the come to pass shortly verse. I'll give some other responses to this issue as time permits.
Of course, the thousand year reign comes at the end of all the horrors predicted in Revelation; after the four horsemen of the apocalypse have gone out to wreak destruction, after the star Wormwood has fallen into the sea, after most of the human race has been annihilated, and so on. It also takes place after the seven years of tribulation, the reign of the Beast, people being forced to take the mark of the Beast, etc.

Thus, that which must take place "soon" doesn't conflict with the millennial kingdom. The setting up of that kingdom would have been only seven years or so down the road from when John of Patmos penned his revelation.

This fits with the prediction Jesus supposedly gave in the "Little Apocalypse," also called the "Olivet Discourse" (Mark 13:30):

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things be done.

"All these things" include the sun and moon being darkened, stars falling from the sky, the Son of man appearing in the clouds and the angels gathering in the elect (Mk. 13:24 - 27). The usual dodge Christian apologists resort to this is brought up is to assert that "generation" (Gr. genaea) actually should be read as "people" (Gr. genos). Thus, this people," i.e. the Jews, will not pass away until these things happen. In other words, the only way to make the Bible prophecy "true" is to make the Bible not say what it actually says.
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Old 11th April 2012, 01:31 PM   #1870
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
You mean your response will come to pass shortly?


Wonder if it's like passing kidney stones?
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Old 11th April 2012, 01:36 PM   #1871
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
Of course, the thousand year reign comes at the end of all the horrors predicted in Revelation; after the four horsemen of the apocalypse have gone out to wreak destruction, after the star Wormwood has fallen into the sea, after most of the human race has been annihilated, and so on. It also takes place after the seven years of tribulation, the reign of the Beast, people being forced to take the mark of the Beast, etc.

Thus, that which must take place "soon" doesn't conflict with the millennial kingdom. The setting up of that kingdom would have been only seven years or so down the road from when John of Patmos penned his revelation.

This fits with the prediction Jesus supposedly gave in the "Little Apocalypse," also called the "Olivet Discourse" (Mark 13:30):

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things be done.

"All these things" include the sun and moon being darkened, stars falling from the sky, the Son of man appearing in the clouds and the angels gathering in the elect (Mk. 13:24 - 27). The usual dodge Christian apologists resort to this is brought up is to assert that "generation" (Gr. genaea) actually should be read as "people" (Gr. genos). Thus, this people," i.e. the Jews, will not pass away until these things happen. In other words, the only way to make the Bible prophecy "true" is to make the Bible not say what it actually says.
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Old 11th April 2012, 03:24 PM   #1872
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''And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.''-Revelation

People are still dying Doc. When can we expect death to flee from us?.
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Old 11th April 2012, 04:26 PM   #1873
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
By starting soon.
It's had 2000 years to start,
that's not soon.
It doesn't say will start soon, it says will come to pass soon. A thousand year reign can not come to pass soon so this implies the come to pass shortly applies to other things such such as things John wrote will happen to the 7 churches he immediately started to talk about.

Plus the fact Christ said go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. There are millions of people living today who have never heard the gospel. There is an implication there that the end will not happen until every person alive has at least had a chance to hear the gospel.

And the official recognized bible of the church was not determined until 398 A.D. at the Council of Carthage by hundreds of bishops. This is about 300 years after John wrote Revelation. Those bishops could have simply dropped Revelation from the bible if they were concerned about the "come to pass shortly" wording written 300 years earlier. They must have not been that concerned because the many bishops chose to include Revelation as part of the official cannon of the Church.
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Old 11th April 2012, 04:29 PM   #1874
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
It doesn't say will start soon, it says will come to pass soon. A thousand year reign can not come to pass soon so this implies the come to pass shortly applies to other things such such as things John wrote will happen to the 7 churches he immediately started to talk about.

Plus the fact Christ said go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. There are millions of people living today who have never heard the gospel. There is an implication there that the end will not happen until every person alive has at least had a chance to hear the gospel.

And the official recognized bible of the church was not determined until 398 A.D. at the Council of Carthage by hundreds of bishops. This is about 300 years after John wrote Revelation. Those bishops could have simply dropped Revelation from the bible if they were concerned about the "come to pass shortly" wording written 300 years earlier. They must have not been that concerned because the many bishops chose to include Revelation as part of the official cannon of the Church.
Start soon and come to pass soon are the same thing. The word soon does not change its meaning when you put in front of other words. You lose again. No fulfilled bible prophecies. So seven billion people have to hear the gospel first? What a pathetic excuse.
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Old 11th April 2012, 04:42 PM   #1875
joobz
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
It doesn't say will start soon, it says will come to pass soon.
That's what that means.

"He didn't say six. he said Half a dozen!"


Quote:
Plus the fact Christ said go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. There are millions of people living today who have never heard the gospel.
What does this have to do with revelation?

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
And the official recognized bible of the church was not determined until 398 A.D. at the Council of Carthage by hundreds of bishops. This is about 300 years after John wrote Revelation.
yup. It didn't happen soon. Hence failed prophecy.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Those bishops could have simply dropped Revelation from the bible if they were concerned about the "come to pass shortly" wording written 300 years earlier. They must have not been that concerned because the many bishops chose to include Revelation as part of the official cannon of the Church.
They had their own motivations for it.
I'm interested in reading Pagel's book to find out more about it.
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Last edited by joobz; 11th April 2012 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 11th April 2012, 04:47 PM   #1876
dafydd
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Doc, can you provide us with glossary of the alternative meanings that you give to words? We know what soon means but you appear to have another definition.
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Old 11th April 2012, 04:57 PM   #1877
DOC
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
... It didn't happen soon...
You still haven't explained what you exactly mean by "it".
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Old 11th April 2012, 04:57 PM   #1878
dafydd
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I've made a start on Doc's glossary.

Anytime in the next few thousand years= soon
Total failure= fulfilled bible prophecy
Never= come to pass

Last edited by dafydd; 11th April 2012 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 11th April 2012, 05:00 PM   #1879
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
You still haven't explained what you exactly mean by "it".
The thousand year reign Doc. You can find the meaning of the word soon in any dictionary.

''The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John''

Soon take place Doc, not in a few thousand years. A failed prophecy. Why are you incapable of understanding that?

Last edited by dafydd; 11th April 2012 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 11th April 2012, 05:01 PM   #1880
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DOC: Why do you even care when the end will come?
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