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Old 12th April 2012, 12:18 PM   #1921
dafydd
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Which verse in Revelation says "All these things shall soon come to pass" and what translation are you using.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John

Translate it any way you will Doc, It's a failed prophecy. Have you actually read the bible?
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Old 12th April 2012, 12:21 PM   #1922
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Which verse in Revelation says "All these things shall soon come to pass" and what translation are you using.
You somehow missed the very first verse?

Revelation 1:1, KJV:
Quote:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Or if you prefer NIV:
Quote:
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
ETA: Damn, dafydd beat me to it.
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Old 12th April 2012, 12:21 PM   #1923
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Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Quickly Doc. How many thousands of years does that mean?

22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Last edited by dafydd; 12th April 2012 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 12th April 2012, 12:25 PM   #1924
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Old 12th April 2012, 12:25 PM   #1925
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Which verse in Revelation says "All these things shall soon come to pass" and what translation are you using.
Why is either important?
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Old 12th April 2012, 12:26 PM   #1926
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Originally Posted by kerikiwi View Post
Why is either important?
Doc is searching in vain for a loophole.
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Old 12th April 2012, 12:36 PM   #1927
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Matthew 24:34 "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

DOC, I think you're making Jesus' words pass away, and if you do that He will be very cross, and you know what THAT means!
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:00 PM   #1928
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Matthew 24:34 "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

DOC, I think you're making Jesus' words pass away, and if you do that He will be very cross, and you know what THAT means!
Ooh, I foresee trouble for Doc when he gets to the Pearly Gates!
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:10 PM   #1929
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So far, the record of "incredible odds of fulfilled prophecy" is as follows.

1) Fall of Nineveh: Accurately predicted by Nahum at a time when the the Medes and Chaldeans had defeated the Assyrians in the field, had taken most of their cities and were closing in on Nineveh. Thus, the prediction required no divine inspiration. Inaccurate in particulars: the enemies did not enter through the river gate, but broke in through the Halzi Gate. Archaeological excavation of the city found unburied skeletons of those who had fallen defending the city at that gate.

2) Fall of Babylon: Isaiah and Jeremiah inaccurately predicted the city would be violently taken by the Medes. The city surrendered without a fight to Cyrus the Great of Persia. The Babylonians hated the Chaldean rulers, who had not shown proper respect for the city's patron deity, Marduk. Nabonidus, in fact, was considering moving the capitol of the Chaldean Empire to another city. The Babylonians looked at Cyrus as a liberator. Sources: the preserved documents of the Babylonian Chronicle and the Cyrus Cylinder.

3) Tyre: Ezekiel predicted that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy the city. He did not. Alexander the Great did, several generations after the generation of those living in Tyre at the time of Ezekiel had died.

4) Egypt: Jeremiah and Ezekiel predicted the Chaldeans would invade and devastate Egypt. Ezekiel predicted that they would even destroy Thebes in Upper Egypt. Archaeology shows that no such destruction took place. History tells us that Pharaoh Amasis, Nebuchadnezzar's contemporary was still ruling Egypt when the Persians destroyed the Chaldean Empire.

5) The Second Coming of Christ: All four Gospels predicted that Jesus would return during the time of the generation that knew him. This didn't happen. Here are the passages: Mark 8:28 - 9:1; Matthew 16:27, 28; Luke 9:26, 27; John 5:25 - 28.

We've talked about the passages above from the Synoptic Gospels. Here's the passage from John (Jn. 5:25 - 28, emphasis and parenthetical notes added):

Truly, truly I say to you, the hour (Gr. hora, hour or instant season) is coming (Gr. erchomai, present imperfect, therefore, "is coming" is a one-to-one translation implying immediacy) and now is ('Now" is in Gr. nun, meaning "right now," expressing immediacy) when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For, as the Father has life in himself, so has he granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to exercise judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

So, in the passage above, John is saying that the very hour is coming, and, in fact, is already here now, when the dead in their tombs will here the voice of Jesus, rise and face judgment.

This did not happen.
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:10 PM   #1930
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
...This fits with the prediction Jesus supposedly gave in the "Little Apocalypse," also called the "Olivet Discourse" (Mark 13:30):

Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things be done...
Here is Mark 13: 29,30 by Young's Literal Translation which is the literal translation of the original Greek:

"so ye, also, when these ye may see coming to pass, ye know that it is nigh, at the doors.

Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;"

Notice the literal translation "may" in both verses.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...13&version=YLT

Here is information on Young's Literal translation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%2...al_Translation

________

On another note, Norman Geisler points out that the Greek word for "generation" can also be translated as race. So Christ could be saying this Jewish race shall not pass away until the end of the world.

Last edited by DOC; 12th April 2012 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:13 PM   #1931
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Here is Mark 13: 29,30 by Young's Literal Translation which is the literal translation of the original Greek:

"so ye, also, when these ye may see coming to pass, ye know that it is nigh, at the doors.

Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;"

Notice the literal translation "may" in both verses.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...13&version=YLT

Here is information on Young's Literal translation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%2...al_Translation

________

On another note, Norman Geisler points out that the word "generation" can also be translated as race. So Christ could be saying this Jewish race shall not pass away until the end of the world.
Hopeless. Fail. Do not pass Go, do not collect 200 pounds.
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:14 PM   #1932
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post

5) The Second Coming of Christ: All four Gospels predicted that Jesus would return during the time of the generation that knew him. This didn't happen. Here are the passages: Mark 8:28 - 9:1; Matthew 16:27, 28; Luke 9:26, 27; John 5:25 - 28.
Well Doc? Are you saying that generation meant race here? You've lost Doc but you are so far gone in your religious delusions , you don't realize it. All four gospels with a failed prophecy.

Last edited by dafydd; 12th April 2012 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:21 PM   #1933
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
So far, the record of "incredible odds of fulfilled prophecy" is as follows.

1) Fall of Nineveh: Accurately predicted by Nahum at a time when the the Medes and Chaldeans had defeated the Assyrians in the field, had taken most of their cities and were closing in on Nineveh. Thus, the prediction required no divine inspiration. Inaccurate in particulars: the enemies did not enter through the river gate, but broke in through the Halzi Gate. Archaeological excavation of the city found unburied skeletons of those who had fallen defending the city at that gate.

2) Fall of Babylon: Isaiah and Jeremiah inaccurately predicted the city would be violently taken by the Medes. The city surrendered without a fight to Cyrus the Great of Persia. The Babylonians hated the Chaldean rulers, who had not shown proper respect for the city's patron deity, Marduk. Nabonidus, in fact, was considering moving the capitol of the Chaldean Empire to another city. The Babylonians looked at Cyrus as a liberator. Sources: the preserved documents of the Babylonian Chronicle and the Cyrus Cylinder.

3) Tyre: Ezekiel predicted that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy the city. He did not. Alexander the Great did, several generations after the generation of those living in Tyre at the time of Ezekiel had died.

4) Egypt: Jeremiah and Ezekiel predicted the Chaldeans would invade and devastate Egypt. Ezekiel predicted that they would even destroy Thebes in Upper Egypt. Archaeology shows that no such destruction took place. History tells us that Pharaoh Amasis, Nebuchadnezzar's contemporary was still ruling Egypt when the Persians destroyed the Chaldean Empire.

5) The Second Coming of Christ: All four Gospels predicted that Jesus would return during the time of the generation that knew him...
This is spamming (as you have done before). I've already responded to all of these, some in several posts. I'm not going to repeat myself.

Last edited by DOC; 12th April 2012 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:23 PM   #1934
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Here is Mark 13: 29,30 by Young's Literal Translation which is the literal translation of the original Greek:

"so ye, also, when these ye may see coming to pass, ye know that it is nigh, at the doors.

Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;"

Notice the literal translation "may" in both verses.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...13&version=YLT

Here is information on Young's Literal translation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%2...al_Translation
The oldest text we have has mark 13:30 as
επι θυραιϲ · αμην
λεγω ϋμιν οτι ου
μη παρελθη η γε
νεα αυτη μεχρι
ταυτα παντα γενη


Originally Posted by DOC View Post
________

On another note, Norman Geisler points out that the Greek word for "generation" can also be translated as race. So Christ could be saying this Jewish race shall not pass away until the end of the world.
Yeah, but Geisler also has a book laughably claiming university is a compound word of unity and diversty.
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:24 PM   #1935
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Well Doc? Are you saying that generation meant race here? You've lost Doc but you are so far gone in your religious delusions , you don't realize it. All four gospels with a failed prophecy.
Your opinion is noted.
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:29 PM   #1936
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Your opinion is noted.
But not understood. All the prophecies mentioned so far in this thread have failed, and I have a long list here that I haven't posted yet.

Last edited by dafydd; 12th April 2012 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:29 PM   #1937
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Here is Mark 13: 29,30 by Young's Literal Translation which is the literal translation of the original Greek:

"so ye, also, when these ye may see coming to pass, ye know that it is nigh, at the doors.

Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;"

Notice the literal translation "may" in both verses.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...13&version=YLT

Here is information on Young's Literal translation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%2...al_Translation

________

On another note, Norman Geisler points out that the Greek word for "generation" can also be translated as race. So Christ could be saying this Jewish race shall not pass away until the end of the world.
Yeah, it's the same old dodge. Look at my post just above yours on the gospels. Were this an isolated case, your and Geisler's rationalizations might actually hold up. However, throughout the New Testament, Jesus talks about the impending end. Whenever he says "the time is at hand, he does not use the regular Greek word for "time," chronos; rather, he uses kairos, meaning a special, appointed time.

In Matthew 16:27, 28 Jesus says:

For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Since Mt. 16:28 says that there are people standing before Jesus as he is speaking who will not taste death before they see the SON coming into his kingdom, this prediction cannot be considered fulfilled by the miracle of Pentecost, even were we to accept it as historical, since, according to Acts, it was the Holy Spirit that settled on the apostles, no the Son.
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:31 PM   #1938
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
This is spamming (as you have done before). I've already responded to all of these, some in several posts. I'm not going to repeat myself.
Responded yes, but with prevarication and obfuscation. You still have to show us that even one biblical prophecy has come to pass.
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:32 PM   #1939
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
I'm not going to repeat myself.
That's good. One shouldn't repeat bad arguments.
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:32 PM   #1940
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post

For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
How many of these guys are still alive Doc?
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:34 PM   #1941
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
That's good. One shouldn't repeat bad arguments.
Jokes are never so funny the second time you hear them.
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:34 PM   #1942
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Here is Mark 13: 29,30 by Young's Literal Translation which is the literal translation of the original Greek:

"so ye, also, when these ye may see coming to pass, ye know that it is nigh, at the doors.

Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;"

Notice the literal translation "may" in both verses.

So, it may be a prophecy, but then again it may not. It may come true, but then again it may not. It may have come true, but then again it may not.
I may go out and do something useful on the property, but then again I may not.

Is that how it works?
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:36 PM   #1943
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
However, throughout the New Testament, Jesus talks about the impending end. Whenever he says "the time is at hand, he does not use the regular Greek word for "time," chronos; rather, he uses kairos, meaning a special, appointed time.
Jesus spoke Greek?
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:37 PM   #1944
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Originally Posted by kerikiwi View Post
So, it may be a prophecy, but then again it may not. It may come true, but then again it may not. It may have come true, but then again it may not.
I may go out and do something useful on the property, but then again I may not.

Is that how it works?
Yes, that is biblical logic. Nothing to do with the real world, of course.
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Old 12th April 2012, 01:38 PM   #1945
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Originally Posted by kerikiwi View Post
Jesus spoke Greek?
Nobody has a clue what Jesus said, the gospels were written long after his death.
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Old 12th April 2012, 02:01 PM   #1946
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
So Christ could be saying this Jewish race shall not pass away until the end of the world.
What are the incredible odds of a race going extinct when the world ends?
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Old 12th April 2012, 02:05 PM   #1947
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Here is Mark 13: 29,30 by Young's Literal Translation which is the literal translation of the original Greek:

"so ye, also, when these ye may see coming to pass, ye know that it is nigh, at the doors.

Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;"

Notice the literal translation "may" in both verses.
There's nothing much "literal" about that. The Greek uses a subjunctive in both cases because the conjunction used demands that.

And there's not much sense in predicting things that might come true. The big J might as well say that it may rain tomorrow. Or not.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
On another note, Norman Geisler points out that the Greek word for "generation" can also be translated as race. So Christ could be saying this Jewish race shall not pass away until the end of the world.
My Greek -> Dutch dictionary says indeed that γενεὰ could be translated by "race". However, that use is only attested with Homer, and only for use with animals. FYI, Homer is about the oldest Greek we have on record, approx. 800 years before the NT was written.

So, epic fail. Or is this latent antisemitism with Geisler, equating Jews with animals?
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Old 12th April 2012, 02:07 PM   #1948
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
What are the incredible odds of a race going extinct when the world ends?
The world will end when the Sun becomes a red giant and engulfs the Earth. No mention of that in the bible.
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Old 12th April 2012, 02:33 PM   #1949
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
There's nothing much "literal" about that. The Greek uses a subjunctive in both cases because the conjunction used demands that.

And there's not much sense in predicting things that might come true. The big J might as well say that it may rain tomorrow. Or not.


My Greek -> Dutch dictionary says indeed that γενεὰ could be translated by "race". However, that use is only attested with Homer, and only for use with animals. FYI, Homer is about the oldest Greek we have on record, approx. 800 years before the NT was written.

So, epic fail. Or is this latent antisemitism with Geisler, equating Jews with animals?
Oh, I'm glad you said that. I know nothing about Greek in any of its forms, but I was going to guess that was an attempt to translate the subjunctive.

I'd like to point out, in general terms, why it can be problematic (or impossible) to translate verb tenses absolutely literally. In modern English, it is the convention to use the literary present ("In his famous soliloquoy, Hamlet says..."). The French, as I recall, use the historical present. Since that sounds weird in English, we translate it as the past tense. Old Norse sagas have a tendency to shift from past tense to present and back. Since that is confusing in English, translations usually stick to the past tense.

In modern English, the subjunctive mood is just barely hanging on by its fingernails. In other languages, it is used extensively and for a variety of purposes. Some uses of the subjunctive are idiomatic and don't really translate well or at all to English.
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Old 12th April 2012, 03:14 PM   #1950
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Here is Mark 13: 29,30 by Young's Literal Translation which is the literal translation of the original Greek:

"so ye, also, when these ye may see coming to pass, ye know that it is nigh, at the doors.

Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;"

Notice the literal translation "may" in both verses.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...13&version=YLT

Here is information on Young's Literal translation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%2...al_Translation

________

On another note, Norman Geisler points out that the Greek word for "generation" can also be translated as race. So Christ could be saying this Jewish race shall not pass away until the end of the world.
Originally Posted by ddt
And there's not much sense in predicting things that might come true. The big J might as well say that it may rain tomorrow. Or not.
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Hopeless. Fail. Do not pass Go, do not collect 200 pounds.
Christ did say no man, including himself, knows the day or the hour of the end of the world. The "may" wording is consistent with Christ's statement that no one knows the time. But he also warned to stay vigilant because it will come like a thief in the night.

Last edited by DOC; 12th April 2012 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 12th April 2012, 03:21 PM   #1951
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Originally Posted by Lucian View Post
Oh, I'm glad you said that. I know nothing about Greek in any of its forms, but I was going to guess that was an attempt to translate the subjunctive.
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Originally Posted by Lucian View Post
I'd like to point out, in general terms, why it can be problematic (or impossible) to translate verb tenses absolutely literally. In modern English, it is the convention to use the literary present ("In his famous soliloquoy, Hamlet says..."). The French, as I recall, use the historical present. Since that sounds weird in English, we translate it as the past tense. Old Norse sagas have a tendency to shift from past tense to present and back. Since that is confusing in English, translations usually stick to the past tense.
The Greek here uses the aorist. Good luck with translating that one "literally". (and let's also not forget aspect here too). However, the conjunctions used here - "when" and "until" clearly express that JC is speaking of things that will happen in the (near) future.

Originally Posted by Lucian View Post
In modern English, the subjunctive mood is just barely hanging on by its fingernails.
God save the Queen subjunctive!
Originally Posted by Lucian View Post
In other languages, it is used extensively and for a variety of purposes. Some uses of the subjunctive are idiomatic and don't really translate well or at all to English.
For instance, in German the subjunctive is always used in indirect speech. However, in many cases it's not apparent as most forms with (weak) German verbs coincide with that of the indicative.
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Old 12th April 2012, 03:38 PM   #1952
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Christ did say no man, including himself, knows the day or the hour of the end of the world. The "may" wording is consistent with Christ's statement that no one knows the time. But he also warned to stay vigilant because it will come like a thief in the night.
The bible says soon,Doc. Which part of that sentence do you not understand? I've had more productive discussions with a brick wall. The world will end when the Sun becomes a red giant. Some disaster might wipe us out but the world will still be here.
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Old 12th April 2012, 03:41 PM   #1953
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Christ did say no man, including himself, knows the day or the hour of the end of the world. The "may" wording is consistent with Christ's statement that no one knows the time. But he also warned to stay vigilant because it will come like a thief in the night.
The whole chapter is about Jesus predicting the end of times. He's not giving that speech to say "well, it's possible the end of the world will come", no, he is predicting it will come, and in the lifetime of his audience.

And that he says no one knows the time but the Father is not in contradiction to that: see the unexpected hanging paradox.
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Old 12th April 2012, 03:43 PM   #1954
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Which verse in Revelation says "All these things shall soon come to pass" and what translation are you using.
That would be Revelation 1:1, which says "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."


Slightly different wording from what I remembered but in essence the same thing.

Oh, and it didn't "shortly come to pass" so it's a failed prophecy.
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Old 12th April 2012, 03:47 PM   #1955
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
That would be Revelation 1:1, which says "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."


Slightly different wording from what I remembered but in essence the same thing.

Oh, and it didn't "shortly come to pass" so it's a failed prophecy.
It's the biblical and Doc's ''shortly''. Doc has his own definitions of common words.
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Old 12th April 2012, 03:53 PM   #1956
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
It's the biblical and Doc's ''shortly''. Doc has his own definitions of common words.
So I've noticed. It's something he shares with biblical literalists I have known including a friend of mine. I'm sorry but special pleading is just wrong.
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Old 12th April 2012, 03:58 PM   #1957
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Christ did say no man, including himself, knows the day or the hour of the end of the world. The "may" wording is consistent with Christ's statement that no one knows the time. But he also warned to stay vigilant because it will come like a thief in the night.
I'm curious. You had us wait to "teach us" about the book of revelation. But now are saying that the entire book may or may not happen.

So what was the point?
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Old 12th April 2012, 04:02 PM   #1958
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I doubt your doubt.

How about another category in the poll: I have heard the gospel and rejected it?

I'll go first.

Just 999,999,999 to go for the first billion!
Yep.
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Old 12th April 2012, 04:08 PM   #1959
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
When can I expect the stars to fall on me?
You had to attend West Point, class of 1915.

"The class the stars fell on" is an expression used to describe the United States Military Academy class of 1915.[1] In the U.S. Army, the insignia reserved for generals is one or more stars. Of the 164 graduates that year, 59 (36%) attained the rank of general, the most of any class in the history of the United States Military Academy .


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_cla..._stars_fell_on

Last edited by tsig; 12th April 2012 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 12th April 2012, 04:14 PM   #1960
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
I'm curious. You had us wait to "teach us" about the book of revelation. But now are saying that the entire book may or may not happen.

So what was the point?
I spent some time this evening rereading Revelation. It is a farrago of insane nonsense, written buy a guy who probably was not allowed out on his own.
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