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12th April 2012, 12:18 PM | #1921 |
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Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John
Translate it any way you will Doc, It's a failed prophecy. Have you actually read the bible? |
12th April 2012, 12:21 PM | #1922 |
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"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
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12th April 2012, 12:21 PM | #1923 |
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Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Quickly Doc. How many thousands of years does that mean? 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. |
12th April 2012, 12:25 PM | #1924 |
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12th April 2012, 12:25 PM | #1925 |
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12th April 2012, 12:26 PM | #1926 |
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12th April 2012, 12:36 PM | #1927 |
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Matthew 24:34 "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."
DOC, I think you're making Jesus' words pass away, and if you do that He will be very cross, and you know what THAT means! |
12th April 2012, 01:00 PM | #1928 |
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12th April 2012, 01:10 PM | #1929 |
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So far, the record of "incredible odds of fulfilled prophecy" is as follows.
1) Fall of Nineveh: Accurately predicted by Nahum at a time when the the Medes and Chaldeans had defeated the Assyrians in the field, had taken most of their cities and were closing in on Nineveh. Thus, the prediction required no divine inspiration. Inaccurate in particulars: the enemies did not enter through the river gate, but broke in through the Halzi Gate. Archaeological excavation of the city found unburied skeletons of those who had fallen defending the city at that gate. 2) Fall of Babylon: Isaiah and Jeremiah inaccurately predicted the city would be violently taken by the Medes. The city surrendered without a fight to Cyrus the Great of Persia. The Babylonians hated the Chaldean rulers, who had not shown proper respect for the city's patron deity, Marduk. Nabonidus, in fact, was considering moving the capitol of the Chaldean Empire to another city. The Babylonians looked at Cyrus as a liberator. Sources: the preserved documents of the Babylonian Chronicle and the Cyrus Cylinder. 3) Tyre: Ezekiel predicted that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy the city. He did not. Alexander the Great did, several generations after the generation of those living in Tyre at the time of Ezekiel had died. 4) Egypt: Jeremiah and Ezekiel predicted the Chaldeans would invade and devastate Egypt. Ezekiel predicted that they would even destroy Thebes in Upper Egypt. Archaeology shows that no such destruction took place. History tells us that Pharaoh Amasis, Nebuchadnezzar's contemporary was still ruling Egypt when the Persians destroyed the Chaldean Empire. 5) The Second Coming of Christ: All four Gospels predicted that Jesus would return during the time of the generation that knew him. This didn't happen. Here are the passages: Mark 8:28 - 9:1; Matthew 16:27, 28; Luke 9:26, 27; John 5:25 - 28. We've talked about the passages above from the Synoptic Gospels. Here's the passage from John (Jn. 5:25 - 28, emphasis and parenthetical notes added): Truly, truly I say to you, the hour (Gr. hora, hour or instant season) is coming (Gr. erchomai, present imperfect, therefore, "is coming" is a one-to-one translation implying immediacy) and now is ('Now" is in Gr. nun, meaning "right now," expressing immediacy) when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For, as the Father has life in himself, so has he granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to exercise judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all those who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. So, in the passage above, John is saying that the very hour is coming, and, in fact, is already here now, when the dead in their tombs will here the voice of Jesus, rise and face judgment. This did not happen. |
12th April 2012, 01:10 PM | #1930 |
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Here is Mark 13: 29,30 by Young's Literal Translation which is the literal translation of the original Greek:
"so ye, also, when these ye may see coming to pass, ye know that it is nigh, at the doors. Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass;" Notice the literal translation "may" in both verses. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...13&version=YLT Here is information on Young's Literal translation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%2...al_Translation ________ On another note, Norman Geisler points out that the Greek word for "generation" can also be translated as race. So Christ could be saying this Jewish race shall not pass away until the end of the world. |
12th April 2012, 01:13 PM | #1931 |
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12th April 2012, 01:14 PM | #1932 |
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12th April 2012, 01:21 PM | #1933 |
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12th April 2012, 01:23 PM | #1934 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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12th April 2012, 01:24 PM | #1935 |
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12th April 2012, 01:29 PM | #1936 |
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12th April 2012, 01:29 PM | #1937 |
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Yeah, it's the same old dodge. Look at my post just above yours on the gospels. Were this an isolated case, your and Geisler's rationalizations might actually hold up. However, throughout the New Testament, Jesus talks about the impending end. Whenever he says "the time is at hand, he does not use the regular Greek word for "time," chronos; rather, he uses kairos, meaning a special, appointed time.
In Matthew 16:27, 28 Jesus says: For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Since Mt. 16:28 says that there are people standing before Jesus as he is speaking who will not taste death before they see the SON coming into his kingdom, this prediction cannot be considered fulfilled by the miracle of Pentecost, even were we to accept it as historical, since, according to Acts, it was the Holy Spirit that settled on the apostles, no the Son. |
12th April 2012, 01:31 PM | #1938 |
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12th April 2012, 01:32 PM | #1939 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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12th April 2012, 01:32 PM | #1940 |
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12th April 2012, 01:34 PM | #1941 |
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12th April 2012, 01:34 PM | #1942 |
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12th April 2012, 01:36 PM | #1943 |
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12th April 2012, 01:37 PM | #1944 |
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12th April 2012, 01:38 PM | #1945 |
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12th April 2012, 02:01 PM | #1946 |
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12th April 2012, 02:05 PM | #1947 |
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There's nothing much "literal" about that. The Greek uses a subjunctive in both cases because the conjunction used demands that.
And there's not much sense in predicting things that might come true. The big J might as well say that it may rain tomorrow. Or not. My Greek -> Dutch dictionary says indeed that γενεὰ could be translated by "race". However, that use is only attested with Homer, and only for use with animals. FYI, Homer is about the oldest Greek we have on record, approx. 800 years before the NT was written. So, epic fail. Or is this latent antisemitism with Geisler, equating Jews with animals? |
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12th April 2012, 02:07 PM | #1948 |
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12th April 2012, 02:33 PM | #1949 |
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Oh, I'm glad you said that. I know nothing about Greek in any of its forms, but I was going to guess that was an attempt to translate the subjunctive.
I'd like to point out, in general terms, why it can be problematic (or impossible) to translate verb tenses absolutely literally. In modern English, it is the convention to use the literary present ("In his famous soliloquoy, Hamlet says..."). The French, as I recall, use the historical present. Since that sounds weird in English, we translate it as the past tense. Old Norse sagas have a tendency to shift from past tense to present and back. Since that is confusing in English, translations usually stick to the past tense. In modern English, the subjunctive mood is just barely hanging on by its fingernails. In other languages, it is used extensively and for a variety of purposes. Some uses of the subjunctive are idiomatic and don't really translate well or at all to English. |
12th April 2012, 03:14 PM | #1950 |
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Originally Posted by ddt
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12th April 2012, 03:21 PM | #1951 |
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You're welcome!
The Greek here uses the aorist. Good luck with translating that one "literally". (and let's also not forget aspect here too). However, the conjunctions used here - "when" and "until" clearly express that JC is speaking of things that will happen in the (near) future. God save the For instance, in German the subjunctive is always used in indirect speech. However, in many cases it's not apparent as most forms with (weak) German verbs coincide with that of the indicative. |
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"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
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12th April 2012, 03:38 PM | #1952 |
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12th April 2012, 03:41 PM | #1953 |
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The whole chapter is about Jesus predicting the end of times. He's not giving that speech to say "well, it's possible the end of the world will come", no, he is predicting it will come, and in the lifetime of his audience.
And that he says no one knows the time but the Father is not in contradiction to that: see the unexpected hanging paradox. |
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"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
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12th April 2012, 03:43 PM | #1954 |
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That would be Revelation 1:1, which says "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done." Slightly different wording from what I remembered but in essence the same thing. Oh, and it didn't "shortly come to pass" so it's a failed prophecy. |
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12th April 2012, 03:47 PM | #1955 |
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12th April 2012, 03:53 PM | #1956 |
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"There is no special treatment for guns." ~WildCat, confirmed gun owner. |
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12th April 2012, 03:58 PM | #1957 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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12th April 2012, 04:02 PM | #1958 |
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12th April 2012, 04:08 PM | #1959 |
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You had to attend West Point, class of 1915.
"The class the stars fell on" is an expression used to describe the United States Military Academy class of 1915.[1] In the U.S. Army, the insignia reserved for generals is one or more stars. Of the 164 graduates that year, 59 (36%) attained the rank of general, the most of any class in the history of the United States Military Academy . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_cla..._stars_fell_on |
12th April 2012, 04:14 PM | #1960 |
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