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Old 15th April 2012, 11:07 AM   #2001
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Originally Posted by Muldur View Post
Meteorites used to be called "falling stars" before people understood what they were.

The Bible does not use 21st century technical language. It uses the every day language of a technologically less advanced people.
That's because the people who made it up didn't know better, not becuase they were incapable of understanding a more accurate view.

Your argument gives the impression that god and the biblical authors were intentionally lying to the people to keep reality from them.
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Old 15th April 2012, 11:11 AM   #2002
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
I'm not sure if this post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but you do know, of course, that the gospels were written to "fulfill" the prophecies. This is particularly true of John having Jesus speared in the side after being crucified in order to "fulfill" Zechariah, though the Synoptic Gospels are ignorant of this incident.
No, they simply do not speak of the incident. None of the gospels are "clones" of the others. That one focuses on one detail that the others do not does not impugn either it or them. John is simply providing an additional detail.
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Old 15th April 2012, 11:16 AM   #2003
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
That's because the people who made it up didn't know better, not becuase they were incapable of understanding a more accurate view.
The very existence of meteorites was not recognized until many centuries later.

Quote:
Your argument gives the impression that god and the biblical authors were intentionally lying to the people to keep reality from them.
There is no possible way to derive that from my argument. The Bible was written in the language of the day, nothing more or less. It was written from the POV of people who did not have (among other things) germ theory, yet it speaks to the fact that under the sanitation laws the house of a deceased person was to be treated as "unclean", and that one should make the latrine separate and distant from one's encampment.

No deception, simply depicting events and matters in terms the people at the time could understand.
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Old 15th April 2012, 11:27 AM   #2004
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Science will never be able to explain how every single prophecy from the first Lord of the Rings movie came true in the third Lord of the Rings movie.
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Old 15th April 2012, 11:28 AM   #2005
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Originally Posted by Muldur View Post
The very existence of meteorites was not recognized until many centuries later.
Exactly. If the bible was the inspired word of god, why wouldn't god have told them the truth regarding meteors?
We are left with only a few conclusions:
1.) God intentionally lied to people about reality.(withholding information and letting people form false opinions is a form of lying)
2.) The bible wasn't inspired by god. Which would only mean that either god doesn't exist, or that the bible is a false representation of his will.


Originally Posted by Muldur View Post
There is no possible way to derive that from my argument. The Bible was written in the language of the day, nothing more or less.
The capacity of knowledge and learning of people 2000-3000 years ago does not differ from people today. To suggest that they couldn't adopt a new set of language to better address reality is to imply they were not yet "ready" for the truth. Why wouldn't they be ready for it?


Originally Posted by Muldur View Post
It was written from the POV of people who did not have (among other things) germ theory, yet it speaks to the fact that under the sanitation laws the house of a deceased person was to be treated as "unclean", and that one should make the latrine separate and distant from one's encampment.
Those are weak examples of evidence for germ theory and infection spreading.
And yet, the bible also demonstrates a rash handling of simple infections that would be easy to treat. Why not explain antibiotics? Jesus could have helped Cure entire leper colonies with spreading that knowledge.
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Old 15th April 2012, 11:30 AM   #2006
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Originally Posted by Muldur View Post
The very existence of meteorites was not recognized until many centuries later.
So what? The Bible is the inerrant word of God, isn't it? He could have dictated to one of his human scribes that "there are big lumps of rock and/or iron and other metals that fall to earth and while falling, burn up and therefore give off light".


Originally Posted by Muldur View Post
There is no possible way to derive that from my argument. The Bible was written in the language of the day, nothing more or less. It was written from the POV of people who did not have (among other things) germ theory,
Which doesn't preclude God to tell his scribes to write down that "there are very small critters, smaller than the eye can see, that cause diseases".

Originally Posted by Muldur View Post
yet it speaks to the fact that under the sanitation laws the house of a deceased person was to be treated as "unclean", and that one should make the latrine separate and distant from one's encampment.

No deception, simply depicting events and matters in terms the people at the time could understand.
We've gone over this argument here many times. The prescription about latrines is crappy. It only applies to military encampments, and it fails to prescribe that the latrine should not be close to a well. And the reason? God guards the camp at night and he doesn't want to see feces lying around - nothing about sanitation.

Deuteronomy 23:12-14:
Quote:
12 Designate a place outside the camp where you can go to relieve yourself. 13 As part of your equipment have something to dig with, and when you relieve yourself, dig a hole and cover up your excrement. 14 For the LORD your God moves about in your camp to protect you and to deliver your enemies to you. Your camp must be holy, so that he will not see among you anything indecent and turn away from you.
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Old 15th April 2012, 11:33 AM   #2007
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Originally Posted by Muldur View Post
Meteorites used to be called "falling stars" before people understood what they were.

The Bible does not use 21st century technical language. It uses the every day language of a technologically less advanced people.
And it's still wrong. Meteorites are mostly harmless and don't cause nearly the destruction called for in revelation. Might as well say that portion of the fable describing orbital bombardment of missiles, which is an impossibility for the mere fact international law forbids such tactics.
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Old 15th April 2012, 11:47 AM   #2008
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Originally Posted by ddt
Deuteronomy 23:12-14:
Quote:
12 Designate a place outside the camp where you can go to relieve yourself. 13 As part of your equipment have something to dig with, and when you relieve yourself, dig a hole and cover up your excrement. 14 For the LORD your God moves about in your camp to protect you and to deliver your enemies to you. Your camp must be holy, so that he will not see among you anything indecent and turn away from you.
The Christian god is offended by the sight of his own creation, excrement? What a dainty being those people made up. But he was ok delivering their enemies? Weird. Almost like a story humans would make up.
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Old 15th April 2012, 12:06 PM   #2009
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
The Christian god is offended by the sight of his own creation, excrement? What a dainty being those people made up. But he was ok delivering their enemies? Weird. Almost like a story humans would make up.
YHWH also first made "man in his own image" and then demands that for the male ones, a bit has to be snipped off. Why, was his own creation not perfect?
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Old 15th April 2012, 12:09 PM   #2010
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
YHWH also first made "man in his own image" and then demands that for the male ones, a bit has to be snipped off. Why, was his own creation not perfect?
It was an attempt to lower our value to collectors. Much like cutting off the tag of beanie babies.
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Old 15th April 2012, 12:20 PM   #2011
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
It was an attempt to lower our value to collectors. Much like cutting off the tag of beanie babies.
Ah, so that the aliens that would later come would stick to anal probing and not actually abduct humans to their home planets?
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Old 15th April 2012, 12:52 PM   #2012
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
It was an attempt to lower our value to collectors. Much like cutting off the tag of beanie babies.
I think it also voids the warranty.
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Old 15th April 2012, 04:36 PM   #2013
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Old 15th April 2012, 04:41 PM   #2014
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Can you give me some examples of fulfilled bible prophecies?
I don't see how your question follows from my post.
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Old 15th April 2012, 04:44 PM   #2015
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
I don't see how your question follows from my post.
Sorry. 1.44 am here
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Old 15th April 2012, 04:46 PM   #2016
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Originally Posted by Muldur View Post
Meteorites used to be called "falling stars" before people understood what they were.

The Bible does not use 21st century technical language. It uses the every day language of a technologically less advanced people.
Can you give me some examples of fulfilled bible prophecies?

Perhaps you would like to address these failed prophecies

Isaiah 19:4-5 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts. And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up.

Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Ezekiel 30:10-11 “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will put an end to the hordes of Egypt by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his army – the most ruthless of nations – will be brought in to destroy the land. They will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain.”

.Matthew 16:28 "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
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Old 15th April 2012, 05:37 PM   #2017
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
Exactly. If the bible was the inspired word of god, why wouldn't god have told them the truth regarding meteors?
We are left with only a few conclusions:
1.) God intentionally lied to people about reality.(withholding information and letting people form false opinions is a form of lying)...
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
So what? The Bible is the inerrant word of God, isn't it? He could have dictated to one of his human scribes that "there are big lumps of rock and/or iron and other metals that fall to earth and while falling, burn up and therefore give off light".

Which doesn't preclude God to tell his scribes to write down that "there are very small critters, smaller than the eye can see, that cause diseases"...
The bible does not claim to be a science book, the vast majority of it deals with God's relationship with man, and spiritual and ethical matters. The little amount that does deal with science themes like Genesis could have been to satisfy the natural curiosity of the illiterate uneducated people in a manner they could easily understand without confusing them, and distracting them from the more important spiritual matters and ethical matters.

But with that said the Bible does seems to know a lot about science:

Genesis 1:1a - the universe came first

Genesis 1:1b - then the earth

Gen 1:10 - then land and sea

Gen 1:21 - then life in the sea

Gen 1;24-25 - then land animals

Gen 1:27 - lastly humans

Also other biblical writers had other unusual scientific knowledge of such things as evaporation, condensation, a time when there was no precipitation. and that the earth hung suspended in space. Gen 2: 6,7 , Eccl 1:7 , Isa 40:22 , Job 26:7

Now back to prophecy.

Last edited by DOC; 15th April 2012 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 15th April 2012, 05:42 PM   #2018
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Can you give me some examples of fulfilled bible prophecies?

Perhaps you would like to address these failed prophecies

Isaiah 19:4-5 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts. And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up.

Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Ezekiel 30:10-11 “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will put an end to the hordes of Egypt by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his army – the most ruthless of nations – will be brought in to destroy the land. They will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain.”

.Matthew 16:28 "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
Well, I've already responded to all of these, some with several posts. If Muldur can add something, fine.
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Old 15th April 2012, 05:46 PM   #2019
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The bible does not claim to be a science book, the vast majority of it deals with God's relationship with man, and spiritual and ethical matters.

Then why do so many Christians refuse to accept evolution?
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Old 15th April 2012, 05:46 PM   #2020
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The bible does not claim to be a science book,
Of course not. Science, as we know it, did not exist yet. If god was real, would he not have provided the basic understanding of the scientific method? or at least explain germ theory?

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
the vast majority of it deals with God's relationship with man, and spiritual and ethical matters.
Such as, how to treat slaves, including how severely one can beat slaves.
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Last edited by joobz; 15th April 2012 at 05:48 PM.
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Old 15th April 2012, 05:51 PM   #2021
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Well, I've already responded to all of these, some with several posts. If Muldur can add something, fine.
yes you did. It is why we can say definitively that you have failed to demonstrate any successful biblical prophecy.
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Old 15th April 2012, 05:58 PM   #2022
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Well, I've already responded to all of these, some with several posts. If Muldur can add something, fine.
Yes you did,and you helped prove that the prophecies failed.
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Old 15th April 2012, 05:59 PM   #2023
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The bible does not claim to be a science book, the vast majority of it deals with God's relationship with man, and spiritual and ethical matters. The little amount that does deal with science themes like Genesis could have been to satisfy the natural curiosity of the illiterate uneducated people in a manner they could easily understand without confusing them, and distracting them from the more important spiritual matters and ethical matters.

But with that said the Bible does seems to know a lot about science:

Genesis 1:1a - the universe came first

Genesis 1:1b - then the earth

Gen 1:10 - then land and sea

Gen 1:21 - then life in the sea

Gen 1;24-25 - then land animals

Gen 1:27 - lastly humans

Also other biblical writers had other unusual scientific knowledge of such things as evaporation, condensation, a time when there was no precipitation. and that the earth hung suspended in space. Gen 2: 6,7 , Eccl 1:7 , Isa 40:22 , Job 26:7

Now back to prophecy.
That is science for five year olds. I can't believe that you are being serious.
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Old 15th April 2012, 06:00 PM   #2024
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Then why do so many Christians refuse to accept evolution?
Because they treat the bible as a science book.
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Old 15th April 2012, 06:05 PM   #2025
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
That is science for five year olds. I can't believe that you are being serious.
And of course, he left out bits like day and night existing before the stars.
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Old 15th April 2012, 06:28 PM   #2026
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
But with that said the Bible does seems to know a lot about science:

Genesis 1:1a - the universe came first

Genesis 1:1b - then the earth

Gen 1:10 - then land and sea

Gen 1:21 - then life in the sea

Gen 1;24-25 - then land animals

Gen 1:27 - lastly humans
You condensed that in a misleading way.

I think the science goes astray pretty early on:

"1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
"

So, first earth and the heavens, later the sun? I don't think that's quite right.

And elsewhere in Genesis, is this:

"18 The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name."


Here, man was created first and was lonely, so God formed the wild animals and birds.

Also a bit off, though I'm sure the apologists just see these as "difficulties", not contradictions or just blatantly wrong.
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Old 15th April 2012, 06:33 PM   #2027
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The bible does not claim to be a science book, the vast majority of it deals with God's relationship with man, and spiritual and ethical matters. The little amount that does deal with science themes like Genesis could have been to satisfy the natural curiosity of the illiterate uneducated people in a manner they could easily understand without confusing them, and distracting them from the more important spiritual matters and ethical matters.
Let's turn those ethics upside down: if your God is a benevolent God, why didn't he include such simple precepts about basic hygiene so mankind would suffer less from diseases? As shown above, it would be simple to explain even to his then illiterate followers how this would work.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Now back to prophecy.
Oh yes. Is there any evidence forthcoming for any fulfilled prophecy?
And how is it with those NT translations? Any evidence for the plausibility of your claimed translations?
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Old 15th April 2012, 06:39 PM   #2028
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Let's turn those ethics upside down: if your God is a benevolent God, why didn't he include such simple precepts about basic hygiene so mankind would suffer less from diseases? As shown above, it would be simple to explain even to his then illiterate followers how this would work.


Oh yes. Is there any evidence forthcoming for any fulfilled prophecy?
And how is it with those NT translations? Any evidence for the plausibility of your claimed translations?
I find it interesting that both DOC and Muldur both make arguments that rely upon considering people at the time of the bible were intellectually unprepared to handle the ideas we know today. Yet, they take the text THESE SAME PEOPLE WROTE as the infallible word of god.
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Old 15th April 2012, 07:08 PM   #2029
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
I find it interesting that both DOC and Muldur both make arguments that rely upon considering people at the time of the bible were intellectually unprepared to handle the ideas we know today. Yet, they take the text THESE SAME PEOPLE WROTE as the infallible word of god.
Yes, if these texts were indeed the infallible word of God, they don't paint a pretty picture of God. Apparently, omniscient God lowers himself to the intellectual level of his followers and his not in any way interested in educated them or to ameliorate their lives, except then to have them jump through all kinds of hoops to please him. The rule about the latrines is a salient case in point: it's not about hygiene, it's about God not liking to see a turd here or there.

Nice fella, that God.
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Old 15th April 2012, 07:15 PM   #2030
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Yes, if these texts were indeed the infallible word of God, they don't paint a pretty picture of God. Apparently, omniscient God lowers himself to the intellectual level of his followers and his not in any way interested in educated them or to ameliorate their lives, except then to have them jump through all kinds of hoops to please him. The rule about the latrines is a salient case in point: it's not about hygiene, it's about God not liking to see a turd here or there.

Nice fella, that God.
And why create man to poop if it offends his delicate sensibilities? Why create disease in the first place? So that you can withhold info on how to avoid or combat it?
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Old 15th April 2012, 07:37 PM   #2031
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The bible does not claim to be a science book, the vast majority of it deals with God's relationship with man, and spiritual and ethical matters. The little amount that does deal with science themes like Genesis could have been to satisfy the natural curiosity of the illiterate uneducated people in a manner they could easily understand without confusing them, and distracting them from the more important spiritual matters and ethical matters.

But with that said the Bible does seems to know a lot about science:

Genesis 1:1a - the universe came first

Genesis 1:1b - then the earth

Gen 1:10 - then land and sea

Gen 1:21 - then life in the sea

Gen 1;24-25 - then land animals

Gen 1:27 - lastly humans

Also other biblical writers had other unusual scientific knowledge of such things as evaporation, condensation, a time when there was no precipitation. and that the earth hung suspended in space. Gen 2: 6,7 , Eccl 1:7 , Isa 40:22 , Job 26:7

Now back to prophecy.
Concerning the hilited area: Actually, in Gen. 1:20 God creates sea creatures and birds, before creating land animals. That's not science.
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Old 15th April 2012, 07:40 PM   #2032
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Originally Posted by Muldur View Post
No, they simply do not speak of the incident. None of the gospels are "clones" of the others. That one focuses on one detail that the others do not does not impugn either it or them. John is simply providing an additional detail.
This defense won't work on the last supper, a Passover meal according to the Synoptic Gospels; while, according to John, Jesus was crucified just before Passover.

It also fails to work on the conflicting Nativity stories in Matthew and Luke.
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Old 15th April 2012, 07:45 PM   #2033
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
Exactly. If the bible was the inspired word of god, why wouldn't god have told them the truth regarding meteors?
We are left with only a few conclusions:
1.) God intentionally lied to people about reality.(withholding information and letting people form false opinions is a form of lying)
2.) The bible wasn't inspired by god. Which would only mean that either god doesn't exist, or that the bible is a false representation of his will.
Neither is a correct point. The Gospels are not divinely inspired as if God made them right it down, they're testaments to what the authors saw (at least superficially; we know that the gospels we have are not the originals of the writers, but words put to paper of their testimonies; chinese telephone and all)

As far as I know, God didn't write the Bible, and I doubt that's even up for discussion, so why try making it one of the choices? That's hardly fair...

To take it seriously, God couldn't have intentionally lied to people because God didn't speak as if the writers were some stenographer... people only wrote their interpretation of events (or more accurately...mythological stories), right? And yes there will always be uneducated Christians who think the Bible is the unerring word of God, and they're wrong AND stupid, but let's not assume every Christian is like this, though some are.

( I should add I'm not here to be an apologist, but my ************ sensor works regardless of whether I am a Christian or not.
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Old 15th April 2012, 07:51 PM   #2034
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Originally Posted by Lowpro View Post
Neither is a correct point. The Gospels are not divinely inspired as if God made them right it down, they're testaments to what the authors saw (at least superficially; we know that the gospels we have are not the originals of the writers, but words put to paper of their testimonies; chinese telephone and all)

As far as I know, God didn't write the Bible, and I doubt that's even up for discussion, so why try making it one of the choices? That's hardly fair...

To take it seriously, God couldn't have intentionally lied to people because God didn't speak, people only wrote their interpretation of events, right? And yes there will always be uneducated Christians who think the Bible is the unerring word of God, and they're wrong AND stupid, but let's not assume every Christian is like this, though some are.

The bible has multiple stories of god directly talking to people.
So, again, my argument stands.

ETA:
I guess we could add a third option of:
The authors were lying. But that would still fall under the category 2.
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Last edited by kmortis; 16th April 2012 at 08:24 AM. Reason: fixed quote tag
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Old 15th April 2012, 07:55 PM   #2035
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
The bible has multiple stories of god directly talking to people.
So, again, my argument stands.
Yea but you're being obtuse. In Exodus/Deutoronomy God talks directly to people IN THE STORY. That's not the same trying to say God WROTE THE STORY (or at least, a stenographer was right next to everyone typing it up)

Your point does not stand joobz.
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Old 15th April 2012, 07:58 PM   #2036
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Sorry I noticed the edit after my post, so I'll address it in this one:

Quote:
I guess we could add a third option of:
The authors were lying. But that would still fall under the category 2.
Bingo, and while saying the authors were lying may be a bit harsh (I prefer to think that the authors were writing fiction in the first place...)

It doesn't fall under category 2 however because you're accusing God of deception. HOWEVER I do like to think this makes an interesting case that if the AUTHORS made God first (probably the most likely thing...) then God would be an agent within a deceiving story...
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Old 15th April 2012, 07:59 PM   #2037
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Originally Posted by Lowpro View Post
Yea but you're being obtuse. In Exodus/Deutoronomy God talks directly to people IN THE STORY. That's not the same trying to say God WROTE THE STORY (or at least, a stenographer was right next to everyone typing it up)

Your point does not stand joobz.
I never stated that god wrote the bible. such a statement would be foolish. but clearly, the bible is supposed to be the inspired word OF god. If it contains errors, than either god 'lied'* in inspiring people, or that the information did not come from god (e.g., wasn't the inspired word).

I say lie to include lies of omission. It would be just as decietful to tell a falsehood as to withhold information critical information leaving people in ignorance. For instance, If Jesus was the son of god, then he would know Germ theory. Yet he never once shares this information... What does that say?
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Old 15th April 2012, 08:04 PM   #2038
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Originally Posted by joobz View Post
I never stated that god wrote the bible. such a statement would be foolish. but clearly, the bible is supposed to be the inspired word OF god. If it contains errors, than either god 'lied'* in inspiring people, or that the information did not come from god (e.g., wasn't the inspired word).

I say lie to include lies of omission. It would be just as decietful to tell a falsehood as to withhold information critical information leaving people in ignorance. For instance, If Jesus was the son of god, then he would know Germ theory. Yet he never once shares this information... What does that say?
Look you don't understand what "Inspired word of God" means. It doesn't mean "Inspired word FROM God"

I just think blaming God is the ultimate strawman when you should be blaming the authors for the many many many many many errors in the Bible.

Also... how the hell do you expect Jesus to know about Germ Theory? There is no reason why we should expect the Son of God to be omnipotent because omnipotent wasn't a characteristic of God then. Seriously that's like asking if Noah saves the Penguins and Kiwi's too....of course he couldn't have. They had no idea ABOUT penguins and Kiwis. Look if you're not going to assume God exists, then why must you force an argument that must assume God exists. Isn't it more accurate to just argue the truth here, that the authors of the books of the Bible were people, not God and that they're stuck with the rules of being people (ie when you don't know tits for pancakes about penguins you aren't going to include them, and when you don't know about microbes you're probably not going to include them either?)
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Old 15th April 2012, 08:10 PM   #2039
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Originally Posted by Lowpro View Post
Look you don't understand what "Inspired word of God" means. It doesn't mean "Inspired word FROM God"
I call shenanigans on the distinction you are attempting to make. Especially since we have a variety of books which claim to state the words of god directly.

My argument is the logical conclusion if god is real. He is either directly deceitful or does not care to actually share truth. The alternative solution is that the bible is NOT of god, either because the authors lied about it. This says nothing regarding whether or not god is real.
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Old 15th April 2012, 08:12 PM   #2040
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Originally Posted by Lowpro View Post
Also... how the hell do you expect Jesus to know about Germ Theory? There is no reason why we should expect the Son of God to be omnipotent because omnipotent wasn't a characteristic of God then.
I think you mean omniscient.
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC.
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