|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
16th April 2012, 05:46 AM | #2081 |
Implicitly explicit
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Here. Or very nearly getting there, at least.
Posts: 2,129
|
|
16th April 2012, 05:55 AM | #2082 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 7,870
|
|
16th April 2012, 09:19 AM | #2083 |
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Biggest Little City in the World
Posts: 29,577
|
Aberhaten!
*Happy dance* |
__________________
"Oh god...What have you done, zooterkin? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!" - Cleon |
|
16th April 2012, 09:24 AM | #2084 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
|
|
__________________
Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
16th April 2012, 09:59 AM | #2085 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
|
|
16th April 2012, 10:08 AM | #2086 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
|
|
__________________
Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
16th April 2012, 10:11 AM | #2087 |
Slide Rulez 4 Life
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,127
|
|
__________________
It is sad that this is necessary: Argumentum Ad Hominem: "You are wrong because you are ugly." Not Ad-Hom: "You are wrong and you are ugly." [X's posts are] ...as good as having 24 hours of Justin Bieber piped into your ears! - kmortis |
|
16th April 2012, 10:24 AM | #2088 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
|
|
__________________
Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
16th April 2012, 10:30 AM | #2089 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,293
|
DOC: There are substantive differences in the following account that go beyond the rationalization in the hilited area. For example:
1) According to Matthew, Joseph and Mary are already living in Bethlehem when Jesus is born. They flee to Egypt to escape the persecution of Herod the Great, come back after he has died, but go to Nazareth to escape the attention of Herod's son Archelaus (however, another of Herd's sons, Antipas, is ruling Galilee). According to Luke, Joseph and Mary are already living in Nazareth and have to trek to Bethlehem for Jesus to be born there. Then they go back to Nazareth. There's no flight to Egypt, no slaughter of the innocents. These two nativity accounts directly contradict each other. You can't rationalize these differences away. 2) According to the Synoptic Gospels, the Last Supper was a Passover meal. According to John, jesus is crucified just before Passover. This is a direct contradiction. 3) According to the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus is too weakened to carry his cross all the way to Golgotha, and Simon of Cyrene is forced to carry it for him. According to John, Jesus carries it all the way. This is a direct contradiction. 4) According to Mark, there are no post-resurrection appearances of the risen Christ, only an empty tomb as evidence. According to Paul, in 1 Corinthians, Jesus first appears to Peter. According to John, He first appears to Mary Magdalene. According to Mark and Matthew, the angel tells the women at the tomb that the disciples are to go to Galilee, where Jesus will meet them. In Matthew, this is indeed where Jesus meets the disciples before ascending to heaven. According to Luke, Jesus expressly tells the disciples not to leave Jerusalem, and he meets them there. These are all direct contradictions. You can't rationalize them away. |
16th April 2012, 10:47 AM | #2090 |
Appearance of intelligence
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,154
|
Like women being unclean and rape and slavery being completely acceptable moral endeavors. And how sometimes, if you want to be right by god, you need to kill, rape, and enslave an entire group of people. Or maybe God will go easy on you and just ask you to sacrifice your own child.
Quote:
Quote:
I'll bet he's willing to try though. |
16th April 2012, 10:56 AM | #2091 |
"más divertido"
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 24,384
|
And that, ladies and germs, is why they call it "apologetics."
DOC, I would strongly urge you to never use this type of reasoning in real life. You will only end up in trouble.
|
16th April 2012, 03:24 PM | #2092 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
|
|
16th April 2012, 03:30 PM | #2093 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,768
|
|
__________________
My kids still love me. |
|
16th April 2012, 03:44 PM | #2094 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
|
There are one hundred failed bible prophecies here.
http://www.freethinkersbooks.com/100fbp.htm |
16th April 2012, 09:01 PM | #2095 |
Ovis ex Machina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sir Ddinbych
Posts: 7,001
|
|
17th April 2012, 02:29 AM | #2096 |
Michael McDonald 1967 - 2021
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,947
|
|
__________________
"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP |
|
17th April 2012, 02:55 AM | #2097 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
|
So why did well known Jewish attorney Jay Sekulow (who has argued several cases before the Supreme Court) convert to Christianity after reading and studying Isaiah chapter 53, and even seeking an explanation from a rabbi.
Joobz you have the right to your opinion, just as the author of the below website (who talks of 60 fullfilled prophecies) has the right to his. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...d43f70aa?pli=1 The fact that you keep saying I have not given 1 fulfilled prophecy gives me the right to keep saying the above. In the future to be honest you should say "in my opinion" you have not given 1 fulfilled prophecy. |
17th April 2012, 03:02 AM | #2098 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 5,399
|
|
__________________
"If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers |
|
17th April 2012, 03:07 AM | #2099 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,959
|
Do you translate the Hebrew language, and why are there so many translations of the Bible if it can be done?
At this link you can see Gateway lists 30 different translations of the Bible into the English Language. (hit the down arrow next to "page options" to see them) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...+1&version=NIV |
17th April 2012, 03:23 AM | #2100 |
Ovis ex Machina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sir Ddinbych
Posts: 7,001
|
|
17th April 2012, 03:45 AM | #2101 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
|
He could no longer resist his craving for bacon, obviously. Trying to misrepresent the case against you as nothing more than the opinion of a single other poster is so completely and transparently dishonest, DOC, that you're doing your fellow christians a far greater disservice than a million hostile atheists ever could. Your right to claim that you've presented evidence of fulfilled prophecies isn't being questioned. The veracity of the claim, however, is most certainly open to criticism and your displeasure with that criticism taking the form of "Bollocks!" is neither here nor there. It's not joobz' opinion. It's a matter of established fact. |
__________________
Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
17th April 2012, 03:55 AM | #2102 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
|
You actually think the bible was written as a single work all at once by a single author in a single, pure form of one language (that language being what we now know as Hebrew) and that the resulting work has been preserved intact for over two thousand years despite being written on non-existent paper, don't you? No wonder you're unable to produce any evidence from the bible to support your ridiculous claims - the book you're referring to as the bible doesn't even exist. |
__________________
Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
17th April 2012, 04:00 AM | #2103 |
Nasty Brutish and Tall
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canberra
Posts: 17,691
|
I'm starting to think that the main reason Complexity left is because DOC is so much more successful at turning people away from Christianity.
|
17th April 2012, 04:02 AM | #2104 |
Implicitly explicit
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Here. Or very nearly getting there, at least.
Posts: 2,129
|
Every era needs its own translations. We have several translations of Homer, Aeschylus, Racine and Shakespeare in Swedish, for instance, as well as of the Bible. New knowledge, the opportunity to modernise language to make it more easily accessible, the need to focus on different aspects of a work, all these things may lead to new translations. Also, believe it or not, translators are a strange breed; many of us enjoy fiddling about with language, and teasing out its inner secrets, so we do it for the sheer fun of it! Or because we think older translations are crap. Or because a publisher wants to sell more copies, and thinks a new translation might do the trick.
|
17th April 2012, 04:23 AM | #2105 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
|
The main point I'm taking away from all this, however, is that our noble translators have for too long been the unsung hero(ine)s of the story of civilisation and that moves must be made immediately to elevate them to their proper position as the True Revelators of History™ (with commensurate bestowing of obscene wealth and unmitigated power, of course). |
__________________
Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
17th April 2012, 04:31 AM | #2106 |
Implicitly explicit
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Here. Or very nearly getting there, at least.
Posts: 2,129
|
|
17th April 2012, 04:42 AM | #2107 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 7,870
|
|
17th April 2012, 05:08 AM | #2108 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,841
|
|
17th April 2012, 05:30 AM | #2109 |
Tergiversator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
|
I don't know. Why have so many Christians converted to Scientology?
Facts aren't opinion, regardless of your attempts at re-framing them as such. 1.) It is a FACT to say that events described in the book of revelation has not happened soon, (or at all), hence a failed prophecy. 2.) It is a FACT to say that Nebuchadnezzar did not end Egyptian wealth, hence The prophecy in Ezekiel is failed. I could go on, but the simple fact is you haven't presented ANY evidence demonstrating a single fulfilled prophecy. It isn't an opinion. It is a fact. Is it a fact that I keep saying it or is it an opinion? By your standards, you should say "in my opinion" I keep saying... To be honest, It is a fact that you have yet to demonstrate a single biblical prophecy as being fulfilled. I will provide evidence for this fact in my next post. |
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
|
17th April 2012, 05:47 AM | #2110 |
Tergiversator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
|
Hi DOC, Here's my evidence that you have yet to present a convincing argument in support of a single biblical prophecy.
DOC has successfully demonstrated a fulfilled biblical prophecy: 1 DOC DOC has failed to demonstrate that biblical prophecies have been fullfilled. 41 Joobz Foster Zygote jond abaddon mashuna zooterkin Mojo Lucian Amazer Helen Filippo Lippi Hokulele RoboTimbo FastEddieB joseph8th kmortis x RobDegraves Elizabeth I Lukraak_Sisser Mudcat ddt Mister Agenda* Whose opinion DOC labeled as Unbiased catsmate tsig Leumas Brainache Welshdean Rincewind Multivac pakeha dafydd TimCallahan Wildy Lrrr Cantab Sezme AdMan Alice Shortcake Sun Countess Agatha Doc has successfullly demonstrated that the OT is largely made up of incomprehensible gibberish: 14 Lucian Helen kmortis ddt Leumas Mudcat Welshdean Rincewind Multivac Brainache pakeha Cantab Sezme Nay_sayer Do you believe any of these[prophecies in a google list] came true? No:21 zooterkin joobz kerikiwi pakeha Mojo dafydd Lucian ddt welshdean Agatha Elizabeth I Craig B catsmate1 Helen carlitos abaddon Robotimbo Mudcat Welshdean Lrrr Rincewind So you believe these[prophecies in a google list] came true? Yes:0 |
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
|
17th April 2012, 06:03 AM | #2111 |
Heretic Pharaoh
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
|
Please add either myself or Aberhaten to the following categories:
|
__________________
Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon |
|
17th April 2012, 06:13 AM | #2112 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,145
|
|
17th April 2012, 06:17 AM | #2113 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 5,399
|
|
__________________
"If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers |
|
17th April 2012, 06:22 AM | #2114 |
a carbon based life-form
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
|
Prophesying Pointers
Why did the chicken cross the road?
DOC you seem a little vague on what's a prophecy. It has this form. 1. Prophet tells what's going to happen before it happens in enough detail to recognize the event. 2. Event happens as foretold. General and open ended statements do not qualify. "there will be wars" while trivially true is not a prophecy. "the city will be destroyed" gives no date so is not a prophecy. "California will break loose and sink in the ocean on 13 of Jan. 2013" is a prophecy. Now can you show us any? |
17th April 2012, 06:27 AM | #2115 |
a carbon based life-form
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
|
|
17th April 2012, 06:32 AM | #2116 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 38,373
|
|
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
|
17th April 2012, 06:37 AM | #2117 |
Michael McDonald 1967 - 2021
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,947
|
I think in the future, to be honest, you [Joobz] should say; "It is the opinion of all participants (that have expressed an opinion) in this thread that DOC has not given one fulfilled prophecy."
DOC, I think you should grow a pair, admit you've failed thus far and move on to a new, verifiable prophecy that is (ideally) extra-biblically verifiable. If you don't or can't, then your somewhat tarnished reputation for honesty and integrity may be damaged beyond economical repair. |
__________________
"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP |
|
17th April 2012, 06:46 AM | #2118 |
a carbon based life-form
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
|
|
17th April 2012, 06:57 AM | #2119 |
Biomechanoid
Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Texas (aka SOMD)
Posts: 32,151
|
Hell, I'd accept "California will break loose and sink in the ocean on 13 of Jan. 2013, plus or minus two weeks." is a prophecy. Of course, saying "California will break loose and sink in the ocean during a full moon, plus or minus two weeks" is distinctly NOT a prophecy. I'll leave it to the casual observer to suss out why.
Oh, welcome back, Pharaoh. |
__________________
-Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Munroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm |
|
17th April 2012, 06:58 AM | #2120 |
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Biggest Little City in the World
Posts: 29,577
|
DOC, there are many different translations of the Bible because there were many people who want to interpret it to support their opinions or beliefs. For example, your insistence that dolous really means "servant" is your translation solely to support your belief that Jesus could never support something as immoral as slavery, despite all the evidence to the contrary. When you have multiple people with multiple agendas and beliefs, of course you will have multiple translations.
Ask me a hard one. |
Thread Tools | |
|
|