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Old 20th April 2012, 02:52 AM   #2161
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
Isis wept. The bloke in that video is a loon and a half. I'll bet he has no trouble at all believing in fulfilled prophecies.

He's got the self-righteous, I-don't-need-to-know-stuff-cos-I've-found-jeebus, atheism-is-a-religion sound just about right though.
He can't even read his own website name correctly, so I don't think I'd trust him for anything else.
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Old 20th April 2012, 03:03 AM   #2162
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
He can't even read his own website name correctly, so I don't think I'd trust him for anything else.


Exactly. I also found the idea of making a YouTube of his website by pointing a webcam at it as it appears on a monitor to be fairly . . . unique.
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Old 20th April 2012, 04:28 AM   #2163
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Yes, unique IS one way of describing that.
Wouldn't it be awesome to have at least one, unique fulfilled bibical prophecy to discuss here?
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Old 20th April 2012, 04:41 AM   #2164
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Yes, unique IS one way of describing that.
Wouldn't it be awesome to have at least one, unique fulfilled bibical prophecy to discuss here?
No camel has ever gone through the eye of a needle, but that is not a prophecy, just common sense.
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Old 20th April 2012, 05:07 AM   #2165
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
So the fact that a religion has roots in the distant past means that it must be true?
Strawman

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Islam is around 1500 years old and people are still talking about it. Buddhism is 2500 years old and people are still talking about it.

You're going to have to do better than that.
Those religions don't have their basis in a singular historical event. It doesn't make sense for Christianity to even exist without a resurrection.

Also Islam spread originally by the sword; and Buddhism is based in a philosophy, it is not dependent on a singular historical event as Christianity is.
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Old 20th April 2012, 05:17 AM   #2166
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Strawman



Those religions don't have their basis in a singular historical event. It doesn't make sense for Christianity to even exist without a resurrection.

Also Islam spread originally by the sword; and Buddhism is based in a philosophy, it is not dependent on a singular historical event as Christianity is.
[OT]Highlighted the total fail here.
Islam is based upon the alleged revelation of The Word Of Allah™ by the Angel Gabriel to his Prophet Mohammed. A rather singular event if I've ever heard of one.

I'll give you Buddhism. Even if you take only Siddhartha Guatama, it was more of a process than an event that led him to his eventual ideas. Rather fitting, considering what his ideas were.

And Chrisitianity also spread by the sword, so there's nothing unique there.[/OT]

And NONE of this has to do with prophesy. Keep it up and it'll all be whisked away for a Rule 11 violation. Same for the Jay Suklow cra...stuff.
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Old 20th April 2012, 05:19 AM   #2167
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Maybe not just anyone. You need to be a saint. The passage, from Matt 27, is very garbled The graves were opened at the time of Jesus' death, but the zombie saints stayed put in their open graves until Jesus was resurrected, whereupon they climbed out and started wandering about! To their credit, the other gospels do not contain this laughable tale.
If God exists miracles are possible. Something had to turn a bunch of scared apostles into bold evangelists that shook up the world, greatly contributed to the extinction of the Greek and Roman gods, and whose actions even play a big part in our upcoming election.
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Old 20th April 2012, 05:19 AM   #2168
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
But something happened shortly afterward which is why the biggest church in the world is located in the heart of the Roman Empire (Rome) and why we are discussing all of this 2000 years later.
So the fact that a religion has roots in the distant past means that it must be true? Islam is around 1500 years old and people are still talking about it. Buddhism is 2500 years old and people are still talking about it.

You're going to have to do better than that.
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Strawman
There is absolutely no way you could have gotten an "A" in any logic course. You have no idea what any logical fallacies are but you hear names for them and randomly regurgitate them at inappropriate times.

Foster Zygote's comment was not a strawman, it was a description of what you yourself had posted. It was the logical extension of what you're trying to pass off as evidence.

What you meant to say about your own post was that you were engaging in the fallacy of "special pleading". You're saying that Christianity is true because it has been around for 2000 years but other relgions aren't true even though they've been around as long or longer because Christianity is special. Can you explain why that is a fallacy?

Oops! Sorry kmortis, you were posting as I was.

DOC, what does this have to do with all of the failed prophecies in the Bible?

Last edited by RoboTimbo; 20th April 2012 at 06:00 AM.
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Old 20th April 2012, 05:21 AM   #2169
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Also Islam spread originally by the sword; and Buddhism is based in a philosophy, it is not dependent on a singular historical event as Christianity is.
No religion is dependent on a single event. They are all amalgamations of varied mythologies and philosophies dolled and doctored up to frame a certain desired social construct.

Then apologetics are formed to address inconsistencies and contradictions as necessary.

By the way, the sword was no secret to christians. Ask Simon Peter.
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Old 20th April 2012, 05:22 AM   #2170
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If God exists miracles are possible.
You have to establish the former to access the latter. So far, no.
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Old 20th April 2012, 05:24 AM   #2171
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Originally Posted by kmortis View Post
[OT]Highlighted the total fail here.
Islam is based upon the alleged revelation of The Word Of Allah™ by the Angel Gabriel to his Prophet Mohammed. A rather singular event if I've ever heard of one.
.
Then why did they need the sword to originally grow if this alleged historical event was so earth shattering. Christianity grew peacefully during its first 300 years in the brutal Roman Empire, where several emperors even made it illegal to have Christian writings.

Last edited by DOC; 20th April 2012 at 05:26 AM.
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Old 20th April 2012, 05:25 AM   #2172
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Something had to turn a bunch of scared apostles into bold evangelists that shook up the world, greatly contributed to the extinction of the Greek and Roman gods, and whose actions even play a big part in our upcoming election.
Appeal to tradition, and, so what?
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Old 20th April 2012, 05:25 AM   #2173
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If God exists miracles are possible. Something had to turn a bunch of scared apostles into bold evangelists that shook up the world, greatly contributed to the extinction of the Greek and Roman gods, and whose actions even play a big part in our upcoming election.
As we've never seen miracles, we have to conclude that no god(s) exist then. Thank you for clearing that up.

Or are you saying that something had to turn a bunch of scared Saudis into bold terrorists who shook up the world, ending their own lives as they ended others? If you say that's different, you are engaging in the fallacy of special pleading.

But what does this have to do with all the failed prophecies in the Christian Bible?
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Old 20th April 2012, 05:26 AM   #2174
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Then why did they need the sword to originally grow if this alleged historical event was so earth shattering.
Turn that around.
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Old 20th April 2012, 05:34 AM   #2175
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
There is absolutely no way you could have gotten an "A" in any logic course. You have no idea what any logical fallacies are but you hear names for them and randomly regurgitate them at inappropriate times.

Foster Zygote's comment was not a strawman, it was a description of what you yourself had posted...
Where did I post this?

"So the fact that a religion has roots in the distant past means that it must be true?"
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Old 20th April 2012, 05:34 AM   #2176
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Where did I post this?

"So the fact that a religion has roots in the distant past means that it must be true?"
Strawman. I never said you posted that.
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Old 20th April 2012, 05:40 AM   #2177
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
So the fact that a religion has roots in the distant past means that it must be true?


Strawman


Well. no. It was a reference to you pointing out that:

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
. . . we are discussing all of this 2000 years later.


You only get to call "Strawman!" when you can point out that someone is attributing words to you that you didn't actually use.

Failness.


Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Islam is around 1500 years old and people are still talking about it. Buddhism is 2500 years old and people are still talking about it.

You're going to have to do better than that.


Those religions don't have their basis in a singular historical event.


Even though this is untrue, so bloody what?


Originally Posted by DOC View Post
It doesn't make sense for Christianity to even exist without a resurrection.


No it doesn't. Time to pack it all in then, I guess.


Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Also Islam spread originally by the sword; and Buddhism is based in a philosophy, it is not dependent on a singular historical event as Christianity is.


Apparently you've forgotten the Crusades and a whole heap of other historical events that demonstrate the bloody history of Christianity, or are you just pretending to have forgotten? There's another word for that sort of thing.
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Old 20th April 2012, 05:41 AM   #2178
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Strawman
DOC, I'd love to read a detailed explanation of how my query qualifies as a strawman argument.

Quote:
Those religions don't have their basis in a singular historical event.
The claimed appearance of the angel Gabriel to Mohamed certainly qualifies as a single event.

Quote:
It doesn't make sense for Christianity to even exist without a resurrection.
Christianity, as we know it now, is based on belief in the claim of Jesus' resurrection from the dead. It says nothing about the truth of the claim. If large numbers of people can come to believe a false claim about an angel appearing to Mohamed, then large numbers of people can come to believe a false claim about Jesus rising from the dead.

Quote:
Also Islam spread originally by the sword;
So what? Christianity was spread by the sword as well.

Quote:
...and Buddhism is based in a philosophy, it is not dependent on a singular historical event as Christianity is.
Let's pretend that you aren't wrong about that: So what? Seriously, explain why a claim is more valid if it describes a single event rather than related events occurring over days, months or years.
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Old 20th April 2012, 05:47 AM   #2179
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If God exists miracles are possible.


There's your problem. Been staring you in the face the whole time, hasn't it?


Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Something had to turn a bunch of scared apostles into bold evangelists that shook up the world, greatly contributed to the extinction of the Greek and Roman gods . . .


No it doesn't. You aren't even able to demonstrate that these apostles even existed so there's no honest way you can ascribe motivations to them.

Further, I'd point out that referring to the extinction of other gods is obviously tacit acknowledgement of their previous existence.

Take it from one who knows, this is Not A Good Look for an alleged monotheist.


Originally Posted by DOC View Post
. . . and whose actions even play a big part in our upcoming election.


And so the relentless search for the most irrelevant statement in the history of everything continues.
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Old 20th April 2012, 05:48 AM   #2180
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Then why did they need the sword to originally grow if this alleged historical event was so earth shattering. Christianity grew peacefully during its first 300 years in the brutal Roman Empire, where several emperors even made it illegal to have Christian writings.
In it's earliest history, Islam grew by word of mouth, just like Christianity. The fact that they had the means and opportunity to fight religious wars a few centuries earlier than Christianity does nothing to invalidate Islam or validate Christianity.
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Old 20th April 2012, 05:54 AM   #2181
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If God exists miracles are possible.
And if Santa Clause exists then he might bring me a pony.

Quote:
Something had to turn a bunch of scared apostles into bold evangelists that shook up the world, greatly contributed to the extinction of the Greek and Roman gods, and whose actions even play a big part in our upcoming election.
That "something" was the same thing that turned the followers of Mohamed into a religion that shook up the world, contributed to the extinction of worship of the old gods, and whose actions play a major part in world events today.

You're still engaging in special pleading.
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Old 20th April 2012, 05:59 AM   #2182
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Where did I post this?

"So the fact that a religion has roots in the distant past means that it must be true?"
Post # 2132. You specifically claimed that there has to be something to Christianity because it has been around for some 2000 years and if it wasn't true it would have faded away and been forgotten. The problem is that there are a number of religions that are still going strong after many generations.
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Old 20th April 2012, 06:03 AM   #2183
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Then why did they need the sword to originally grow if this alleged historical event was so earth shattering.

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.
- Arnaud Amalric, Abbot of Cîteaux and Papal Legate
Good question, DOC.


Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Christianity grew peacefully during its first 300 years in the brutal Roman Empire, where several emperors even made it illegal to have Christian writings.


If I was a proto-Christian doing my thing in an empire that I thought would string me up, nail me to a tree, feed me to some lions or light me up like a candle I'd be being pretty peaceful about it too, although the fact is it wasn't the religious pursuits of the Christians that got them in trouble so much as their seditious meddling and all-round unwillingness to play by the rules.

Just like today, in other words.

Once the ball got rolling, however, it was a bit of a different story though, wasn't it? Face it DOC, the Romans were extremely tolerant when it came to the religions of those they conquered and in many cases they adopted those religions as their own.

Christianity, on the other hand, has never learned to play nice with the other kids. And never will.
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Old 20th April 2012, 06:07 AM   #2184
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If God exists miracles are possible. Something had to turn a bunch of scared apostles into bold evangelists that shook up the world, greatly contributed to the extinction of the Greek and Roman gods, and whose actions even play a big part in our upcoming election.
So you've given up on the failed bible prophecies? Very wise of you.
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Old 20th April 2012, 06:13 AM   #2185
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Then why did they need the sword to originally grow if this alleged historical event was so earth shattering. Christianity grew peacefully during its first 300 years in the brutal Roman Empire, where several emperors even made it illegal to have Christian writings.
Peacefully? Ever heard of Constantine? He was handy with a sword.
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Old 20th April 2012, 06:16 AM   #2186
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If God exists miracles are possible. Something had to turn a bunch of scared apostles into bold evangelists that shook up the world, greatly contributed to the extinction of the Greek and Roman gods, and whose actions even play a big part in our upcoming election.
Ron L. Hubbard's nonsense has some rabid acolytes too. Does that prove the existence of Xenu?
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Old 20th April 2012, 06:16 AM   #2187
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If God exists miracles are possible.


As we've never seen miracles, we have to conclude that no god(s) exist then. Thank you for clearing that up.


It's almost as if DOC has completely forgotten that the last 30 times he attempted this stupid argument it was shot down in exactly the same way.
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Old 20th April 2012, 06:18 AM   #2188
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.
- Arnaud Amalric, Abbot of Cîteaux and Papal Legate
Good question, DOC.





If I was a proto-Christian doing my thing in an empire that I thought would string me up, nail me to a tree, feed me to some lions or light me up like a candle I'd be being pretty peaceful about it too, although the fact is it wasn't the religious pursuits of the Christians that got them in trouble so mush as their seditious meddling and all-round unwillingness to play by ther rules.

Just like today, in other words.

Once the ball got rolling, however, it was a bit of a different story though, wasn't it? Face it DOC, the Romans were extremely tolerant when it came to the religions of those they conquered and in many cases they adopted those religions as their own.

Christianity, on the other hand, has never learned to play nice with the other kids. And never will.
Christianity usurped pagan rituals and festivals. It was a case of if you can't beat them, join them. The farce of Christmas and the stupid story of the birth of Jesus is a case in point. Easter too.
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Old 20th April 2012, 06:19 AM   #2189
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
It's almost as if DOC has completely forgotten that the last 30 times he attempted this stupid argument it was shot down in exactly the same way.
It does make one wonder how his memory works.
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Old 20th April 2012, 06:22 AM   #2190
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Ron L. Hubbard's nonsense has some rabid acolytes too. Does that prove the existence of Xenu?
And a whole bunch of people packed up and went to live in the harsh wilderness because Joseph Smith claimed to have been given a set of golden plates by an angel. Mormonism is still going strong today, so it must be true.
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Old 20th April 2012, 06:27 AM   #2191
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If God exists miracles are possible. Something had to turn a bunch of scared apostles into bold evangelists that shook up the world, greatly contributed to the extinction of the Greek and Roman gods, and whose actions even play a big part in our upcoming election.
The believers in Jesus' miraculous resurrection may have shaken up some communities, and converted a minority to the belief in their religion, but note that they never converted the people of whom Jesus was one, and from whom he sprang, and who were the alleged observers of the event! This is the biggest failure of credibility in the foundation of any religion I know! Tom Paine's account of this failure (Age of Reason Part 1 Ch 2) is worth citing here. (My italics.)
Quote:
But the resurrection of a dead person from the grave, and his ascension through the air, is a thing very different as to the evidence it admits of, to the invisible conception of a child in the womb. The resurrection and ascension, supposing them to have taken place, admitted of public and ocular demonstration, like that of the ascension of a balloon, or the sun at noon-day, to all Jerusalem at least. A thing which everybody is required to believe, requires that the proof and evidence of it should be equal to all, and universal; and as the public visibility of this last related act was the only evidence that could give sanction to the former part, the whole of it falls to the ground, because that evidence never was given. Instead of this, a small number of persons, not more than eight or nine, are introduced as proxies for the whole world, to say they saw it, and all the rest of the world are called upon to believe it. But it appears that Thomas did not believe the resurrection, and, as they say, would not believe without having ocular and manual demonstration himself. So neither will I, and the reason is equally as good for me, and for every other person, as for Thomas.

It is in vain to attempt to palliate or disguise this matter. The story, so far as relates to the supernatural part, has every mark of fraud and imposition stamped upon the face of it. Who were the authors of it is as impossible for us now to know, as it is for us to be assured that the books in which the account is related were written by the persons whose names they bear; the best surviving evidence we now have respecting that affair is the Jews. They are regularly descended from the people who lived in the times this resurrection and ascension is said to have happened, and they say, it is not true. It has long appeared to me a strange inconsistency to cite the Jews as a proof of the truth of the story. It is just the same as if a man were to say, I will prove the truth of what I have told you by producing the people who say it is false.

Last edited by Craig B; 20th April 2012 at 06:29 AM.
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Old 20th April 2012, 06:45 AM   #2192
Fast Eddie B
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This discussion has just reminded me of this scene from "Last Temptation":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1ulq07LIMM
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Old 20th April 2012, 06:49 AM   #2193
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
It's almost as if DOC has completely forgotten that the last 30 times he attempted this stupid argument it was shot down in exactly the same way.


It does make one wonder how his memory works.


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Old 20th April 2012, 06:52 AM   #2194
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OK, apparently I was too subtle before. Let me make this clear, even for those in the cheap seats.


Mod WarningThe spread of Christianity, the foundation of other religions, the conversions of Jewish lawyers are all OFF TOPIC. Get back to the veracity of biblical prophesy.
Responding to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By:kmortis
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Old 20th April 2012, 06:58 AM   #2195
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Originally Posted by kmortis View Post
OK, apparently I was too subtle before. Let me make this clear, even for those in the cheap seats.


Mod WarningThe spread of Christianity, the foundation of other religions, the conversions of Jewish lawyers are all OFF TOPIC. Get back to the veracity of biblical prophesy.
Responding to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By:kmortis
We could, if Doc would just answer our questions. I'll try again. Doc, would you agree that the prophecy about uncircumcised men entering Jerusalem has failed? If it has not failed, when do you expect a ban on uncut willies to be enforced?
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Old 20th April 2012, 07:03 AM   #2196
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Originally Posted by kmortis View Post
OK, apparently I was too subtle before. Let me make this clear, even for those in the cheap seats.


Mod WarningThe spread of Christianity, the foundation of other religions, the conversions of Jewish lawyers are all OFF TOPIC. Get back to the veracity of biblical prophesy.
Responding to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By:kmortis
Really, it's that simple? I'm not aiming for a suspension, but how can you rein in anything when it comes to Biblical prophecy? I'm not a regular contributor to this thread, but I follow (read) it. How do you define what is outside of the Bible?

You actually said that the spread of Christianity was outside of Biblical prophesy. Care to explain that?
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Old 20th April 2012, 07:07 AM   #2197
Craig B
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Originally Posted by kmortis View Post
OK, apparently I was too subtle before. Let me make this clear, even for those in the cheap seats.


Mod WarningThe spread of Christianity, the foundation of other religions, the conversions of Jewish lawyers are all OFF TOPIC. Get back to the veracity of biblical prophesy.
Responding to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By:kmortis
Very well, then. Here's a more "on topic" passage from Tom Paine, Examination of the Prophecies
Quote:
These repeated forgeries and falsifications create a well- founded suspicion that all the cases spoken of concerning the person called Jesus Christ are made cases, on purpose to lug in, and that very clumsily, some broken sentences from the Old Testament, and apply them as prophecies of those cases; and that so far from his being the Son of God, he did not exist even as a man -- that he is merely an imaginary or allegorical character, as Apollo, Hercules, Jupiter, and all the deities of antiquity were. There is no history written at the time Jesus Christ is said to have lived that speaks of the existence of such a person, even as a man.
The Jesus story "fulfills" the prophecies merely because it was made up from the prophecies, as I showed above (#2152) from the two donkeys story in Matthew. Paine stated this two centuries ago. He was right.

Last edited by Craig B; 20th April 2012 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 20th April 2012, 07:11 AM   #2198
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
How could I ever do that when (besides my other posts) there is Isaiah chapter 53, and also the verse in Ezekiel 26 that accurately prophecizes Tyre will become a place over which fisherman will place their nets.




Am I missing something here?


Apart, that is, from the fact that Isaiah 53 has nothing at all to say about Tyre.
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Last edited by Akhenaten; 20th April 2012 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 20th April 2012, 07:13 AM   #2199
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
No, Tyre has yet to be turned into a piscatorial theme pub.
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Old 20th April 2012, 07:17 AM   #2200
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
Perhaps. Zoom in and you may see fishermen's nets hanging out to dry, somewhere near the shore, and DOC will claim it to be a fulfilment of Biblical prophecy.
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