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20th April 2012, 07:22 AM | #2201 |
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20th April 2012, 07:23 AM | #2202 |
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Good points both. It might serve well to remind DOC that he needs to reconcile the picture on the previous page with this: Ezekiel 26 But only after he's answered this, of course: |
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20th April 2012, 07:40 AM | #2203 |
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20th April 2012, 07:49 AM | #2204 |
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20th April 2012, 07:56 AM | #2205 |
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20th April 2012, 08:16 AM | #2206 |
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20th April 2012, 08:20 AM | #2207 |
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Did DOC go off on another 10 day sabbatical/retreat?
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20th April 2012, 09:18 AM | #2208 |
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Going once more to DOC's link, here are prophecies 11 through 19 of the 60:
11. He pre-existed creation- Mic 5:21, Pet 1:20 I'm assuming this is a typo, since the last verse in Micah 5 is verse 15. Micah 5:2 says of the Messiah that, ". . . his origin is from old, from ancient days." The only real assertion that Jesus pre-existed creation is in the opening of the Gospel of John. In any case, finding fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies in the New Testament is hardly stunning, since the authors of the gospels used and abused the Hebrew scriptures to find anything they could claim to be prophetic. Further, there's no basis to believe that anything extraordinary about Jesus, particularly his miracles, are anything but fiction. Consider the walking dead in Matthew's account of the Passion. Since there's no corroborating evidence of this incident - even among the other gospels - it is most likely Matthew's invention. 12. He shall be called Lord- Ps 110:1, Acts 2:36 This is hardly a prophecy, that his followers hailed him as "Lord." 13. Called Immanuel (God with us)- Isa 7:14, Mt 1:22-23 I've already explained this one in my previous post on the subject of these 60 prophecies. The Immanuel prophecy was meant to be fulfilled during the time of the Assyrian Empire. In any case, this is redundant and shouldn't be accorded the status of yet another prophecy. 14. Prophet- Deut 18:18-19, Acts 3:18-25 Gee! The messiah would be a prophet! How astounding! Of course, what Jesus prophesied, the end of the world in his generation didn't take place. 15. Priest- Ps 110:4, Heb 5:5-6 Wow! Here's another one! He'd be a priest - although Jesus in fact was not a priest. 16. Judge- Isa 33:22, Jn 5:22-23 17. King- Ps 2:6, Jn 18:33-37 Ditto for these two. His followers, writing in the New Testament called him judge and king. 18. Anointed by the Spirit- Isa 11:2, Mt 3:16-17 Isaiah 11:2 says that, "the Spirit of the LORD will rest upon him." Matthew 3:16, 17 are simply Matthew's account of the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist. Jesus rises out of the water and see the Holy Spirit descending on him like a dove. The verses also say the heavens were opened and a voice from heaven says, "This is my beloved son with whom I am well pleased." Again, there's no corroborating evidence, even among the other gospels. For example, Mark has the voice from heaven say, "You are my beloved son . . . " making the whole thing a subjective epiphany. 19. His zeal for God- Ps 69:9, Jn 2:15-17 The Gospel of John simply refers back to Ps. 69:9 to make Jesus "fulfill" what isn't even a prophecy in the Old Testament. By the way, this is from John's version of the cleansing of the Temple, which the Synoptic Gospels place at the end of Jesus' ministry. John places it at the beginning. Thus, the whole incident is suspect. Again, as with the first ten, prophecies 11 through 19 are without substance. They are a series of unverifiable claims made in the New Testament that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament. |
20th April 2012, 10:07 AM | #2209 |
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To help us get back to the OP, I shall post an updated list of where we stand regarding the arguments made.
DOC has successfully demonstrated a fulfilled biblical prophecy: 1 DOC DOC has failed to demonstrate that biblical prophecies have been fullfilled. 43 Joobz Foster Zygote jond abaddon mashuna zooterkin Mojo Lucian Amazer Helen Filippo Lippi Hokulele RoboTimbo FastEddieB joseph8th kmortis x RobDegraves Elizabeth I Lukraak_Sisser Mudcat ddt Mister Agenda* Whose opinion DOC labeled as Unbiased catsmate tsig Leumas Brainache Welshdean Rincewind Multivac pakeha dafydd TimCallahan Wildy Lrrr Cantab Sezme AdMan Alice Shortcake Sun Countess Agatha Akhenaten/Aberhaten lowpro Doc has successfullly demonstrated that the OT is largely made up of incomprehensible gibberish: 16 Lucian Helen kmortis ddt Leumas Mudcat Welshdean Rincewind Multivac Brainache pakeha Cantab Sezme Nay_sayer Akhenaten lowpro Do you believe any of these[prophecies in a google list] came true? No:23 zooterkin joobz kerikiwi pakeha Mojo dafydd Lucian ddt welshdean Agatha Elizabeth I Craig B catsmate1 Helen carlitos abaddon Robotimbo Mudcat Welshdean Lrrr Rincewind Akhenaten Lowpro So you believe these[prophecies in a google list] came true? Yes:0 |
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20th April 2012, 10:41 AM | #2210 |
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20th April 2012, 12:51 PM | #2211 |
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20th April 2012, 08:40 PM | #2212 |
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Going once more to DOC's link, here are prophecies 20 through 27, concerning the ministry of Jesus:
Concerning His ministry: Prophesied---Fulfilled 20. Preceded by a messenger- Isa 40:3, Mt 3:1-3 Matthew 3:1 - 3 as Matthew often does, claims something happened, in this case, John the Baptist preaching, then claims it to be the fulfillment of a prophecy, in this case Isa. 20:3. 21. To begin in Galilee- Isa 9:1-2, Mt 4:12-17 The same is true of this prophecy. 22. Ministry of Miracles- Isa 35:5-6, Mt 9:35;11:4 Again, Isaiah predicts it. Matthew claims it happened, Again, there is no outside corrroboration of the miracles sopposedly wrought by Jesus. 23. Teacher of parables- Ps 78:1-4, Mt 13:34-35 Again, it's the same old claim (Mt. 13: 34, 35): Al this Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed he said nothing to them without a parable. Thuis was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet: z" I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world." And the "prophecy" isn't really that; it's a psalm. 24. He was to enter the temple- Mal 3:1, Mt 21:10-12 Wow, Jesus entered the temple, something any messianic pretender would naturally do. 25. Enter Jerusalem on donkey- Zech 9:9, Mt 21:1-7 This, once again, is Matthew trying desperately to make jesus fulfill a prophecy (Zech. 9:9). In this instance, he goes to absurd lengths to get the prophecy right and only succeeds in getting it wrong. Zechariah 9:9 says: Rojoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Lo, your king comes to you; triumphant an victorious is he, humble and riding on an ass, on a colt, the foal of an ass. Here Zechariah uses a west Semitic poetic convention twice. The convention is to repeat the name of a personage or even a beast with slight variation. Since Zion is the temple mount in Jerusalem, the daughter of Zion and the daughter of Jerusalem are the same woman. Likewise, the ass and the colt, te foal of an ass are the same beast. Matthew says that by Jesus telling his discipled to bring the ass and its foal, he was fulfilling the words of Zechariah, and even quotes Zech. 9:9. However, writing in Greek, centuries after the time of Zechariah, he misses the Semitic poetic convention. The results are rather hilarious (Mt. 21:6, 7, emphasis added): The disciples went and did as Jesus had directed them; they brought the ass and the colt, and put their garments on them, and he sat thereon. So, to "fulfill" the prophecy to the letter, Matthew has Jesus riding into Jerusalem on two animals at the same time, like a circus stunt rider. Christian apologists often try to say that he only rode on the colt, which followed its mother, who was being led by one ofthe disciples. However, this, of course, is not what the verse says. It says he sat on both beasts at the same time. 26. Stone of stumbling to Jews- Isa 28:16; Ps 118:22 1 Pet 2:6-8 Again, this is the same old trick of writing something in the New Testament to deliberately reflect =something in the Jewish scriptures, then to claim it's a prophecy fulfilled. 27. Light to Gentiles- Isa 49:6, Acts 13:46-48. Ditto for this one. |
20th April 2012, 09:24 PM | #2213 |
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Great minds, as they say. See #2152. |
20th April 2012, 10:19 PM | #2214 |
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21st April 2012, 04:59 AM | #2215 |
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I've already answered this question. The verse could be interpreted as conditional since God gave two commands in the verse; what if the Jews don't obey those commands. Also he could have easily been referring to invading heathen armies (since he was talking about invasions in the previous chapter) and the prophecy could have been intended for their lifetimes. If I say a Yankee fan will never enter this house. I obviously mean during my lifetime, but I don't actually say that, it's implied.
Also it's not practical to believe that he also meant such people as traders and caravans who might pass through the large city for economic reasons. |
21st April 2012, 05:11 AM | #2216 |
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21st April 2012, 05:19 AM | #2217 |
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Joobz how come you are allowed to continuously (possibly 15 to 20 times) give the opinions of people, but I'm no longer allowed to give the opposite opinion (concerning prophecy) of attorney Jay Sekulow. That's not fair.
Plus the fact it is a bandwagon fallacy with no new relevant information given (other then some anonymous person's opinion). Just let the posts speak for themselves. Also this is a skeptic website. You parading your poll is like me parading a poll taken at a Tea party convention (where there was a debate about Obama's performance) that states 98% of those that heard the debate think Obama is not doing a good job. |
21st April 2012, 05:22 AM | #2218 |
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No you haven't. You made up some special pleading nonsense and typed it in the space underneath the question. Not the same thing as answering at all, and that's why you'll find that the question will be repeated until you do actually answer. Are you able to point out the word 'if' in the verse? If the answer is 'no' then your argument collapses. None of this is even hinted at in the verse in question. This 'could have' garbage is nothing more than you making up stuff. It's not now and never has been part of the prophecy. Absolute rubbish. The meaning you are claiming is not at all implicit in the words you have used, much less is it obvious. This prophecy, like your desperate, straw-clutching argument is an utter failure. |
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21st April 2012, 05:23 AM | #2219 |
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21st April 2012, 05:25 AM | #2220 |
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21st April 2012, 05:26 AM | #2221 |
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Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
No if there Doc. And beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I suppose that many inhabitants found their clothes beautiful. Failed prophecy Doc, why can't you admit it? |
21st April 2012, 05:29 AM | #2222 |
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21st April 2012, 05:31 AM | #2223 |
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21st April 2012, 05:38 AM | #2224 |
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Because this: speaks directly to the topic, while that stuff that you seem determined to keep talking about in defiance of the Mod Box has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Neither is it joobz' directive. It's a running poll of the effectiveness of your arguments, nothing more and nothing less. What's this 'no new relevant information given' bilge anyway? Quite apart from anything else, none of your own posts have ever presented 'new relevant information'. |
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21st April 2012, 06:02 AM | #2225 |
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21st April 2012, 06:05 AM | #2226 |
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21st April 2012, 06:08 AM | #2227 |
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I know. But when they are shown to have failed, DOC has to twist himself into knots to redefine words and "interpret" what was clearly written. But then, based on his rewriting of whichever prophecy he's apologizing for, he forgets that his interpretation no longer qualifies it as a prophecy.
He's just shooting himself in the foot. |
21st April 2012, 06:13 AM | #2228 |
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21st April 2012, 07:40 AM | #2229 |
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As it happens, DOC, I use the BibleGateway site all the time, and yet I've never seen this translation there: Isaiah 52:1 Which leads me to believe that you have in your possession a version of the Bible with which nobody else seems to be familiar. Don't you think you should share this great discovery with the rest of Christendom? I'm sure there'd be quite a to-do about it. |
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21st April 2012, 08:01 AM | #2230 |
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21st April 2012, 08:43 AM | #2231 |
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21st April 2012, 09:03 AM | #2232 |
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21st April 2012, 09:11 AM | #2233 |
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That was done by Alexander the Great, who built a causeway to besiege the island city, and it caused the surroundings to silt up.
DOC seems to believe that Alexander's successful expedition is somehow a fulfilment of the prophecy that Nebuchadrezzar would destroy the city, which he didn't. But I ask, if fishermen dried their nets there while it was still an island "in the midst of the sea" - and we can be sure they did - could that have been a fulfilment? But more rational beings would surely think that the prophecy means that the site would stop being a city, and become a mere rock casually used by fisher folk. And as a city it would be lost forever. As Google Earth shows, that has not happened. |
21st April 2012, 09:38 AM | #2234 |
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Yep. A city of 40,000 people that wouldn't have been there at all if the prophecy had been fulfilled. Which would still be wrong because even though Alexander had a bit of tanty and wrecked half the city he didn't destroy it any more than Nebuchadnezzar did. No, because the first part of the prophecy - "and they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock" - would still be missing from the scenario. Wildy and I aren't hallucinating after all? That's a relief. |
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21st April 2012, 09:38 AM | #2235 |
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No DOC, it's not.
Your attorney quote was about his conversion, an ill-disguised 'appeal to authority', if you will. By the way, what is the Tea party and what does it have to do with bibical prophecy? Joobz' poll is about how the forum members here view your efforts to show there have actually been fulfilled bibical prophecis. Do you get the difference, DOC? Here's the OT quote: "Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean." Here's your answer "I've already answered this question. The verse could be interpreted as conditional since God gave two commands in the verse; what if the Jews don't obey those commands. Also he could have easily been referring to invading heathen armies (since he was talking about invasions in the previous chapter) and the prophecy could have been intended for their lifetimes. If I say a Yankee fan will never enter this house. I obviously mean during my lifetime, but I don't actually say that, it's implied. Also it's not practical to believe that he also meant such people as traders and caravans who might pass through the large city for economic reasons. " Do you see any problem with your interpretation, DOC? |
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21st April 2012, 09:42 AM | #2236 |
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That's my problem with the bible. All believers have their own interpretation. If the bible was the holy word of god then there could only be one interpretation.
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21st April 2012, 10:32 AM | #2237 |
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21st April 2012, 11:01 AM | #2238 |
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Not necessarily. Our old mate Isaiah has another bit of a prophecy with a sea dragon in it. Isaiah 27:1 It's supposed to be about the redemption of Israel and I think Matty was cribbing from it when he wrote that stuff about Jeebus coming "not to bring peace, but to bring a sword". Ezekiel was hoping for nasty things to happen to the Egyptians at the Ezekiel 29:3 Izzy and Zeke totally didn't like Egyptians very much. |
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21st April 2012, 11:14 AM | #2239 |
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Once more into the link (i.e. 60 "fulfilled" prophecies about Jesus)
The day Jesus was crucified Prophesied---Fulfilled 28. Betrayed by a friend- Ps 41:9, Jn 13:18-27 29. Sold for 30 pieces of silver- Zech 11:12, Mt 26:14-15 30. Thirty pieces thrown in Temple- Zech 11:13, Mt 27:3-5 31. Thirty pieces buys potters field- Zech 11:13, Mt 27:6-10 Taking these four prophecies as a block I might point out that the earliest report of post resurrection appearances by Jesus, found in 1 Corinthians 15, says in v. 6 that, after appearing to Cephas (Peter), Jesus appeared to the twelve. Apparently, when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians ca. CE 50 - 60, the grand myth of the betrayal by Judas had yet to be formulated. Once it was formulated, the gospel writers, particularly Matthew and John, scoured the Hebrew scriptures to find verses - even in the Psalms - that could be used as prophecies for this fictional event. Think about the actions of Judas. What would be the point of his betrayal. If he were really money hungry enough to betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, why would he have been hanging around with an itinerant teacher who preached a doctrine involving voluntary poverty? So, we are supposed to believe that Judas hung around with Jesus for about three years, wandering around Galilee, then, suddenly, without apparent cause, betrayed him. Then we have the two contradictory stories of his death: Matthew saying he hanged himself (as did Ahithophel after he had betrayed King David); Luke saying (in Acts) his guts burst out as he was looking down at the field he'd bought with the 30 pieces of silver. Fundamentalist apologists have some ingenious ways to try to reconcile the two disparate accounts; but its all mental gymnastics and special pleading in the end. 32. Forsaken by His disciples- Zech 13:7, Mk 14:27+50 33. Accused by false witnesses- Ps 35:11+20-21, Mt 26:59-61 34. Silent before accusers- Isa 53:7, Mt 27:12-14 35. Wounded and bruised- Isa 53:4-61, Pet 2:21-25 36. Beaten and spit upon- Isa 50:6, Mt 26:67-68 37. Mocked- Ps 22:6-8, Mt 27:27-31 38. Fell under the cross- Ps 109:24-25, Jn 19:17, Lk 23:26 Again, these are simply the gospel writers claiming something happened, then scouring the Hebrew scriptures for "prophecies" that were somehow fulfilled in the gospels. It's not worth going into detail for each of them. However, to show to what degree the gospel writers were reaching, let's consider the supposed prophecy in # 38. Did Ps. 109:24-25 really predict Jesus falling under the cross? Let's look at these verses: My knees are weak through fasting; my body has become gaunt. I am the object of scorn to my accusers; when they see me, they wag their heads. Somehow, I don't see a cross here or even anyone falling. So, this is a prophecy that isn't. This is the case with many of the 60. Like a heavily padded resume, the list of 60 prophecies proves upon examination to be without substance. |
21st April 2012, 12:07 PM | #2240 |
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Humber-physics 101: The treadmill has no ground equivalent. This means that the belt is not the road, but the Earth. ... That means the belt is also a privileged and unique perspective. If not then the treadmill collapses to the real world equivalent of a real treadmill, with different objects at different velocities in the same frame. Either way, no motion. |
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