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21st April 2012, 12:25 PM | #2241 |
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There are a few reasons why:
1.) it is on topic. It directly addresses the observed strengths of your arguments in support of biblical prophecies 2.) I have been continually updating it as people have voiced their opinions. As such, it contains new information relevant to the discussion. Because his opinion isn't related to the OP. Of course, Jay Sekulow is more than welcome to join in and state if he agrees or disagrees with your premise. It would seem your real complaint is that No one has said you have made a convincing argument. 1.) each post contains new information. 2.) It is relevant information. 3.) It suggests you have failed to make a convincing argument. Why don't you let my post speak for itself? It is a skeptic website. A website dedicated to critical thinking. As such, this poll is likely to be a very fair analysis regarding the logical and rational strength of your arguments. The fact that you can't even logically support a single solitary prophecy is no one else's problem but your's. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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21st April 2012, 12:26 PM | #2242 |
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You are allowed to bring up the opinion of Sekoluw. Others are allowed to point out how wrong that opinion is.
It is not a bandwagon fallacy. The poll demonstrates that you have failed to convince the named people of your argument about fulfilled biblical prophecy. Your Tea Party poll would be very appropriate in answering the question: 'are the delegates convinced Obama is not doing a good job?' |
21st April 2012, 12:57 PM | #2243 |
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Minor quibble of no real relevance--it's just something that bugs me: while it's true that most of us do not post under our real, complete names (with the notable exception of TimCallahan), we do post under names; therefore, we are not some anonymous people. We are some pseudonymous people. This does not negate your argument. What everyone else has said negates your argument.
Yup, it's clearly not conditional. Indeed, the grammar of the clauses indicates a cause and effect relationship: Make yourself pretty, Jerusalem, because you won't be sullied by the uncircumcised and unclean any more. |
21st April 2012, 02:27 PM | #2244 |
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I'm on said list, I have no qualms in stating quite clearly that you have done a horrible job in proving even a single one of these supposed prophecies has come true.
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21st April 2012, 02:46 PM | #2245 |
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21st April 2012, 02:50 PM | #2246 |
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Continuing with the 60 prophecies in DOC's link, here are more of those dealing with the Crucifixion:
39. Hands and feet pierced- Ps 22:16, Jn 20:24-28 Does Ps. 22:16 actually say, " . . . they have pierced my hands and feet,"? Well, it does in English translations. However, the Hebrew word thus translated, q'aru, actually means to "dig into." There is another Hebrew word, daqar that actually means to stab or pierce. It' the word used in Zech. 12:10 (They will look upon him whom they have pierced). Let's put the phrase from Ps. 22:16 quoted above into context by quoting it in its entirety: Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have dug into my hands and feet. The psalmist likens his enemies to a pack of dogs. Typically, when a pack of dogs takes down its prey, the dogs (wolves, etc.) immobilize the animal by seizing it legs or feet to either drag it down or immobilize it. Then one of the pack clamps its jaws on the victim's windpipe, or they tear its guts out. this doesn't sound much like the Crucifixion. 40. Crucified with thieves- Isa 53:12, Mt 27:38 Did Is. 53:12 actually predict the messiah would be crucified with thieves? Let's take a look at the verse: Therefore I ill divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors It's quite a stretch to make numbered with the transgressors to fit crucified with thieves. 41. Prayed for enemies- Isa 53:12, Lk 23:34 The last line of Isa. 53:12 is used again to cover Lk. 23:34, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." the "Song of the Suffering Servant" (Isa. 53) was mined by the gospel writers as a source of material for the Passion. In other words, the Passion narrative was made to fit the scriptures. 42. Rejected by His own people- Isa 53:3, Jn 19:14-15 Isaiah 53:3 says: "He was dispised and rejected by men . . ." not by his own people. Thus, it is, once again, stretching things to make it cover the Jews rejecting Jesus in Jn. 19:14, 15. 43. Hated without cause- Ps 69:4, Jn 15:25 In Jn 15:25 Jesus says, "It is to fulfill the word that is written in their law, 'They hated me without cause.' . . ." What he is referring to is Ps. 694a: More in number than the hairs on my head are those who hate me without cause . . . . This psalm, like many, is a lament. It's also traditionally considered a psalm of David. So Jesus is, in this narrative, claiming to be a descendant of David. Once more, this is not a prophecy. 44. Friends stood aloof- Ps 38:11, Lk 22:54,23:49 45. People wag their heads- Ps 22:7;109:25, Mt 27:39 46. People stared at Him- Ps 22:17, Lk 23:35 These three verses from the Psalms, which are, again, laments, were used by various gospel writers to flesh out and add pathos to the Passion. The lament that his enemies "stare and gloat over me," from Ps. 22:17 is used here to be a "prophecy" of Lk. 23:35a, 'And the people stood by watching . . . ." Again, it's really stretching things to make this verse from the Psalms a prophecy. I'll do more on the not-so-fabulous 60 in later posts. |
21st April 2012, 02:52 PM | #2247 |
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21st April 2012, 05:05 PM | #2248 |
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Okay, finishing up the prophecies on the Crucifixion here are numbers 47 through 56 in DOC's link.
47. Cloths (sic) divided and gambled for- Ps 22:18, Jn 19:23-24 Again, we return to Psalm 22, a lament. Verse 18 says: they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots. John 19:23, 24 do indeed say the soldiers divide Jesus' clothes among themselves and cast lots for a seamless tunic he was wearing. This was, in fact, a priestly garment. Only John says Jesus was wearing such an article of clothing. It's pretty obviously his invention, since Jesus, a carpenter from Galilee, would not have owned this very special sort of tunic. At the end of verse 24, John tells the reason for the soldiers casting lots for Jesus' clothes (a rather unlikely event, since said clothing would have been drenched in sweat and stained with blood): This was to fulfill the scripture, "They parted my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots." So, once again, the author of John scoured the scripture to find a "prophecy" (actually a psalm) he could fulfill. 48. Became very thirsty- Ps 22:15, Jn 19:28 Again, John says this was done to fulfill scripture. It's the same-old same-old. 49. Gall and vinegar offered Him- Ps 69:21, Mt 27:34 Actually, the Gospel of John says that vinegar and hyssop, rather than gall, were offered to Jesus Mark just says vinegar was offered. Luke doesn't mention the incident. Hyssop would have helped deaden the pain. In Ps. 69:21 the psalmist (supposedly David) complains that his enemies gave him poison for food and vinegar to drink. It's really rather doubtful that the Romans would have cared about those being tortured to death being thirsty. 50. His forsaken cry- Ps 22:1, Mt 27:46 Yes. both Mark and Matthew say that Jesus cried, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me." This would be inexplicable except for the fact that this is the opening of Psalm 22, supposedly written by King David. Hence, this is a literary device to to link Jesus and David. 51. Committed Himself to God- Ps 31:5, Lk 23:46 Again, having Jesus quote a Psalm verse is a literary device, not a prophecy. 52. Bones not broken- Ps 34:20, Jn 19:32-36 This one is rather amusing. putting it in context Ps. 34:19, 20 say (emphasis added): Many are the afflictions of the righteous; but the LORD delivers him out of them all. He keeps all his bones; not one of them is broken. The LORD obviously did not deliver Jesus out of his affliction. Thus, John is misusing the psalm in his effort to make it into a prophecy. 53. Heart broken- Ps 69:20; 22:14, Jn 19:34 The incident where a Roman soldier spears Jesus in the side, and blood and water come out, is only found in John. Psalm 69:20 only says that insults have broken the psalmist's heart. Psalm 22:14 says, "I am poured out like water." In both cases it's really stretching things to try to make these verses prophetic of the Crucifixion. Once again, the resume has been padded. 54. His side pierced- Zech 12:10, Jn 19:34+37 John again claims Jesus was speared to fulfill scripture. Yet, none of the Synoptic Gospels mentions this incident, so significant in John. Again, the spearing of Jesus would seem to be John's invention. 55. Darkness over the land- Amos 8:9, Lk 23:44-45 Amos 8 is an apocalyptic prophecy of the end of Israel, not of the Crucifixion. 56. Buried in rich man's tomb- Isa 53:9, Mt 27:57-60 Yes, our present translation of Isa. 53:9 reads: And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. However, there are problems with this verse. The rich man doesn't fit unless Isaiah was saying the rich are wicked. Some variant translations substitute the words "evildoers" or "satyrs' in place of "rich man." As to whether the body of Jesus was actually given to Joseph of Arimathea, we only have the words of the gospel writers. In fact, as a condemned criminal, found guilty of sedition and put to the most degrading form of death the Romans used, Jesus may not have even been accorded a decent burial. The Romans may well have cast his body into a common open grave, covered it in lime and eventually buried it as the pit began to fill up. In my next post on this subject I'll finish the 60 prophecies. |
21st April 2012, 05:55 PM | #2249 |
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21st April 2012, 10:55 PM | #2250 |
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Thanks for your analysis of DOC's 60 prophecies, TimCallahan.
What a dishonest and misleading list that is, to be sure! |
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21st April 2012, 11:19 PM | #2251 |
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Do we need to concern ourselves with seamless priestly garments here? Surely this is simply another example (like Matthew's donkey multiplication exercise) of a gospel misinterpretation of a poetic parallelism. The parting and casting lots are two statements of the same event, but John thinks two processes are involved, so he invents an indivisible garment in an attempt to make sense of his own misreading of the psalm.
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22nd April 2012, 12:13 AM | #2252 |
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I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten I sometimes think the Bible was inspired by Satan to make God look bad. And then it backfired on Him when He underestimated the stupidity of religious ideologues. -MontagK505 |
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22nd April 2012, 01:48 AM | #2253 |
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Please add me to "has failed to demonstrate that biblical prophecies have been fullfilled" please.
DOC, this list is only falicious if it is used to demonstrate anything other than what it is. A list of presidents who believed(for example) is evidence for presidents that believed, not whether that belief is true. Most everyone, including me, has explained this to you many times and either there is a serious disconnect going on or some fairly aggrevious intellectual dishonesty. |
22nd April 2012, 05:14 AM | #2254 |
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22nd April 2012, 05:29 AM | #2255 |
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22nd April 2012, 05:51 AM | #2256 |
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22nd April 2012, 05:59 AM | #2257 |
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22nd April 2012, 06:16 AM | #2258 |
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22nd April 2012, 08:31 AM | #2259 |
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22nd April 2012, 08:50 AM | #2260 |
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Nice one Aberhaten, I salute you. Incidentally, what do you use for making these extraordinary pics? |
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22nd April 2012, 09:15 AM | #2261 |
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That one (like most) was done with Corel PaintShop Photo Pro X3. I made it for the late lamented NT Evidence thread but I received a prophecy that it would be needed again so I've kept it handy.
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22nd April 2012, 09:27 AM | #2262 |
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22nd April 2012, 09:35 AM | #2263 |
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22nd April 2012, 11:20 AM | #2264 |
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Okay, here's one last dip into DOCs link, prophecies 57 through 60:
57. Raised from the dead- Ps 16:8-11, Acts 2:24-31 All that this passage from Psalm 16 says that could relate to resurrection is verse 10: For thou dost not give me up to Sheol or let thy godly one see the pit. Acts 2:24 - 31 quotes Ps. 16:8 - 11 as a prophecy of Jesus being raised from the dead. Of course, since there's no contemporary report outside the New Testament of Jesus being raised from the dead, there's really no way to test and either verify or falsify this claim. 58. Begotten as Son of God- Ps 2:7, Acts 13:32-35 Psalms 2:7 says: I will tell you a decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my son, today I have begotten you." This would seem to be a formula of kingly adoption, particularly in that God tells the psalmist, who already exists, that He has begotten him "today." Again, the passage in Acts merely quotes the passage from Psalms and declares it a prophecy. 59. Ascended to God- Ps 68:18, Eph 2:8-10 This claim of prophecy frankly puzzles me. Here's Ps. 68:18 (emphasis added): Thou didst ascend the high mount, leading captives in thy train, and receiving gifts among men, even among, the rebellious, that the LORD GOD may dwell there This psalm is full of such warlike imagery. It has nothing to do with Jesus ascending into heaven after his resurrection. What's even more puzzling is what it has to do with Eph. 2:8 - 10: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. This is a statement of the doctrine of salvation by grace. It would appear that the compiler of the 60 prophecies made an error in quotation here. 60. Seated beside God- Ps 110:1, Heb 1:3+13 The quote from Ps. 110:1 is: The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool." As with many of the psalms, this one is full of warlike imagery. Consider verses 5 and 6: The Lord is at your right hand; he will shatter kings on the day of his wrath. he will execute judgment among the nations, filling them them with corpses; he will shatter chiefs over the wide earth. Both verses 3 and 13 in Hebrews 1 speak of Jesus sitting at the right of God, and Heb. 1:13 does quote Ps. 110:1. Again, quoting a passage from the Psalms and claiming it to be prophetic of an unsubstantiated claim one makes is hardly prophecy. All in all, the supposedly impressive list of 60 "prophecies" from the Hebrew scriptures allegedly fulfilled by Jesus is utterly without substance. |
22nd April 2012, 01:30 PM | #2265 |
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22nd April 2012, 02:16 PM | #2266 |
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22nd April 2012, 02:25 PM | #2267 |
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23rd April 2012, 11:23 AM | #2268 |
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Here's one last thought about DOC's link, the 60 Old Testament prophecies supposedly fulfilled in the New Testament: One has to accept the historicity of the gospels to believe that the various prophecies and the quotations from the Psalms were fulfilled in the life of Jesus. Leaving aside the many miracles reported in the gospels, can we accept the other events reported in them as historically true? In a word, "No."
Consider the pageant of Palm Sunday. What do have to believe to accept it as true? We have to believe that the Romans, who had already put down a number of Jewish revolts, would stand idly by while some guy enters Jerusalem and is treated like a king, with crowds throwing down their garments so his donkey didn't have to walk on bare earth. These same crowds are crying out, "Hosannah!" which means, "Save us!" Yet the Romans seem utterly unconcerned by this. Later, the mob turns against Jesus - though we aren't told why there's this sudden reversal - and Pontius Pilate is actually afraid of the mob. Thus he delivers Jesus up to be crucified and frees Barabbas, a man the Romans have already found guilty of insurrection. Yet, according to Josephus, Pilate was rather brutal when he was confronted by an angry mob, and there's no record of the Romans having a policy of remanding the death sentence (particularly in the case of insurrection) to honor local holidays. I could go on; but the main point is this: Whether it's the fate of the city of Tyre or the life of Jesus, the only way one can make the prophecies of the Bible come out right is to ignore history and archaeology. I think it's time to end this thread. |
23rd April 2012, 11:35 AM | #2269 |
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23rd April 2012, 11:39 AM | #2270 |
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23rd April 2012, 11:49 AM | #2271 |
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23rd April 2012, 11:54 AM | #2272 |
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23rd April 2012, 12:30 PM | #2273 |
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Don't get me wrong fellas, I'm fully aware of DOC's M.O., but his wriggling, grammatical twisting, obfuscation and paucity of truth cannot usurp the immense amount of historical and archaeological evidence. No matter how he serves it to us.
ETA: Sorry Pharoah, I forgot to thank you for the 'graphic design' tip earlier. |
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"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP |
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23rd April 2012, 12:58 PM | #2274 |
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How many zeros? Jabba |
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23rd April 2012, 01:14 PM | #2275 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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23rd April 2012, 01:40 PM | #2276 |
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23rd April 2012, 02:05 PM | #2277 |
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Odd the book of Isaiah never seemed to bother Jesus who quoted it several times. It also didn't seem to bother the Jews or their copyists for the 800 years before Christ came. You'd think if they thought the prophecy failed they wouldn't have held Isaiah in high regard or at least they would have had the copyists change the verse. It's a difficult verse from our view but if Jesus and the Jews for 800 years didn't seem to have a problem with Isaiah, then I really don't either (for that reason and for the multiple other reasons I gave in my post above).
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23rd April 2012, 02:14 PM | #2278 |
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Yeah, but he condoned slavery. So his opinion is worth much.
because it was a prophecy that hadn't happened yet......? I understand you come from the "Anything goes" version of biblical interpretation. Just don't expect anyone to be convinced by such weak arguments. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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23rd April 2012, 02:15 PM | #2279 |
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1) You have no idea how Jesus felt about it. You have nth-hand copies of generation-removed writings of unclear authorship claiming to be about Jesus, and letters from Paul politicizing and re-organizing the church, but nothing to actually detail what Jesus felt. 2) Perhaps it doesn't bother the Jews for the same reasons that the bible's innumerable contradictions, immoralities, falsehoods, fables and incorrect statements don't bother you; they're blinkered by their pre-existing belief. |
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23rd April 2012, 02:18 PM | #2280 |
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It's not odd at all. The people who made up the words for the mythical Jesus to say were copying them from the older sources to make it look like the old prophecies were coming true. And you know this how? Because that's what it says in the Bible? That's the way the inerrant word of teh LAWD works, is it? Change a phrase here and there to make things match up? Balderdash. It couldn't be any more straightforward. Which bit of it are you having trouble understanding? If it's good enough for some 2000-year-old mythical character to believe in then it's good enough for you, eh DOC? This whole ridiculous post is just one long the-bible-is-true-because-it-says-it-is load of drivel. |
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