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23rd April 2012, 02:32 PM | #2281 |
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"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP |
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23rd April 2012, 02:41 PM | #2282 |
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That is the most bizarre argument I have ever encountered. Here's a problem with Isaiah. He famously prophesies that the enemies of Ahaz, king of Judah, will not prevail against him: Isaiah 7
Quote:
Quote:
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23rd April 2012, 05:27 PM | #2283 |
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"If a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its ass on the ground."
- Elizabeth I's wonderful husband If wishes were horses, Beggars would ride. If turnips were watches, I would wear one by my side. And if "ifs" and "ands" were pots and pans, there'd be no work for tinkers. - Mother Goose |
23rd April 2012, 11:21 PM | #2284 |
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What Jewish revolts occurred in Jerusalem (during the Roman occupation) before 33 AD (about the time of Palm Sunday)?
And letting them have the parade would show the Romans just how much support Jesus had, and who were his big supporters. Better for everything to be out in the open so you can get easy and free information than to not know what's going on in secret. They could always bring him in at anytime. Also, preventing it might have caused more ill-will than allowing it. And there doesn't seem to be any writings of people saying, "Hey, wait a minute, I'd don't remember any big parade in Jerusalem 35 years ago." Or even "Hey wait a minute, I don't remember any guy name Jesus raising the dead or doing over 30 other miracles". |
23rd April 2012, 11:50 PM | #2285 |
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There are no secular writings of any sort making the least mention of Jesus for many decades after the alleged date of his death. This suggests the stories about him are false - nobody confirms them. To use this as an argument that they are true - nobody denies them - is very strange reasoning, to put it mildly.
In any case, the works of anti Christian writers were suppressed following the adoption of Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire and, much later, hostile references to Jesus were removed even from the Talmud by order of the Pope, contained in a Bull published in 1554. |
24th April 2012, 03:30 AM | #2286 |
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24th April 2012, 06:44 AM | #2287 |
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The Romans in the NT are portrayed as a sort of impersonal force of nature, it's the Jews and the Jewish leaders who are shown as being contorted with rage and determined to kill Jesus.
Of course, the belief that the Jews rejected Jesus is central to Christianity so it's no surprise that the central myths support that belief. |
24th April 2012, 06:47 AM | #2288 |
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24th April 2012, 07:06 AM | #2289 |
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Why the part that conflicts with reality of course
It's the same tired crap: 1)If something in the bible can't be verified then it's literally true 2)If something in the bible can be verified and it's true then it's literally true 3)If something in the bible can be verified and it's false then it's a metaphor, non-literal, different language, hard to understand crap etc funny how that works only for #3... |
24th April 2012, 07:49 AM | #2290 |
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How about the revolt led by Judas of Galilee as a reaction to the census imposed for taxation purposes by Quirinius in Iudæa Province around 6 CE? There were of course a great many other minor revolts during the Roman occupation, but this one stands out as an obvious answer for your question for two reasons:
Tell the truth, DOC. This response is just a paraphrase of the plot synopsis of the appropriate section of The Life of Brian, isn't it? Did you really think nobody here, of all places, would spot it for what it is? |
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24th April 2012, 08:05 AM | #2291 |
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24th April 2012, 08:33 AM | #2292 |
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24th April 2012, 08:37 AM | #2293 |
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24th April 2012, 11:05 AM | #2294 |
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Is DOC still asserting that ********? According to the history of paper, that while paper might not have been around in Jesus' time papyrus and parchment was. No doubt he's been explained this before, but the history of paper is an interesting one and vitally important to understand.
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24th April 2012, 11:42 AM | #2295 |
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Akhenaten has already mentioned Judas the Galilean. Here's another uprising. In Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, Chapter 3, item 2, Josephus tells us that Pilate used temple funds to build an aqueduct to bring water to Jerusalem. A number of Jews - Josephus says many ten thousands - massed and protested the appropriation of temple funds for a secular project. Pilate told them to disperse. When they refused to do so, he gave a signal to Roman soldiers dressed as Jews and mixed into the crowd, who were carrying concealed weapons, and these soldiers killed and wounded many of the protesters.
Antiquities Book 18, Chapter 4, item 1 tells of another potential uprising, this time among the Samaritans. when an armed multitude of them gathered in a village at the base of Mt. Gerrizim, Pilate sent troops of cavalry and foot soldiers to attack them. Yet, according to the gospels, we are supposed to believe that this brutal man was cowed by a mob demanding that Barabbas be released and Jesus be crucified. BTW, you still haven't explained why, in a few short days, the crowds welcoming Jesus had dissipated and another mob had assembled to demand his death. It's also odd, in the incident of Jesus blasting the fig tree and his driving the money changers out of the Temple, that he seems to be coming from Bethany to Jerusalem and back again on a regular basis without attracting any attention, either from crowds crying out, "Hosannah," or from the Romans. The Palm Sunday crowds seem to have forgotten Jesus rather quickly. As to people writing about Jesus, denying what was written in the gospels, you must remember that supernatural claims were quite common in hose days and likely to be shrugged off - just as Justin Martyr shrugged off those who claimed to have seen deceased emperors ascending to heaven in the smoke of the funeral pyres. You also have to remember that, at the time the gospels were written, between the years 70 and 90, nobody but the Christians were interested in such claims. Others would not be reading the gospels and wouldn't have bothered with the claims of a small heretical sect. Finally, you must remember that the gospels and other books of the New Testament were written in Greek for a culturally Greek audience. Paul's epistles, which antedate the gospels, were written to congregations in western Asia Minor (Galatians), in Greek cites around the Aegean Sea and in Rome. This audience would have been largely ignorant of the laws and customs of Judea (as the author of Mark was), as well as being ignorant of what did or did not happen to a minor messianic pretender - one who was scarcely mentioned (if at all) by Josephus. |
24th April 2012, 04:57 PM | #2296 |
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24th April 2012, 05:01 PM | #2297 |
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Here is item 2
2. But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews (8) were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition. But you left out item 3, the next paragraph: 3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm _____ I see no problem with Pilate not finding any guilt with Jesus. Item 2 above portrays the Romans and Jews as enemies. There is a saying that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". And Jesus was definitely an enemy of many of Jewish religious leaders of the day. |
24th April 2012, 05:25 PM | #2298 |
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Tim left it out because it has absolutely nothing to do with the question that you asked, namely: And now you're flailing about wildly in a transparent attempt to distract from the fact that the answer that was given shows that you are, as always, completely at a loss when it comes to actual history. Pathetic. |
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24th April 2012, 05:33 PM | #2299 |
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This story even makes the bible story make less sense and supports Tim's point.
It helps support the point that it is completely insane that the jews would first welcome jesus by a parade, and then a week later call for his head. Thank you for helping show just how illogical the bible story is. |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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24th April 2012, 05:37 PM | #2300 |
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24th April 2012, 05:48 PM | #2301 |
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24th April 2012, 05:51 PM | #2302 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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24th April 2012, 06:05 PM | #2303 |
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This thread is about prophecy, so when Josephus (that Tim brought up) is reported to use this wording in the very next paragraph from the one Tim brought in:
"for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold" as I show in the below link, that is relevant http://www.internationalskeptics.com...29#post8228629 Regarding item 3 (that mentions prophecy) here is what the scholars say: From the article: Historical Jesus The Testimonium of Flavius Josephus By Mark McFall Up until the enlightenment of the 18th century, early Christians thought this passage was a wonderful and thoroughly authentic attestation of Jesus and his resurrection, and it was often quoted. Then, during the enlightenment, the entire passage was questioned by at least some scholars. Today, however, there’s a remarkable consensus among both Jewish and Christian scholars that the testimonium at its core is authentic although there may be some interpolations as is seen in a survey conducted by the Josephan scholar, Louis Feldman. In covering all the relevant literature on the testimonium from 1937 to 1980, Feldman showed that 4 scholars regarded the testimonium as entirely genuine, 6 scholars regarded it as mostly genuine, 20 scholars accepted it with some interpolations, 9 scholars regarded it with several interpolations, and 13 scholars regarded it as being totally an interpolation." (See: www.earlychristianwritings.com/testimonium.html ). http://www.frontline-apologetics.com..._Josephus.html |
24th April 2012, 06:32 PM | #2304 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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24th April 2012, 07:13 PM | #2305 |
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Your assertion that "this thread is about prophecy" is only telling half the story, DOC. The thread is about fulfilled prophecies and zombie Jesus only becomes relevant to the discussion after you've established that he actually existed and that he did the resurrection thing. |
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24th April 2012, 07:21 PM | #2306 |
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25th April 2012, 05:38 AM | #2307 | ||
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25th April 2012, 07:06 AM | #2308 |
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25th April 2012, 07:20 AM | #2309 |
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25th April 2012, 09:59 AM | #2310 |
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Alas, I got confused with the evidence of fulfilled prophecies in the NT and the evidence for truth in the NT.
Ah, well. Anyway, DOC, care to name a prophecy in the OT which was actually fulfilled? TimCallahan destroyed that 60 Prophecy list, so how about moving on to something you can demonstrate? |
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25th April 2012, 10:14 AM | #2311 |
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The ramblings of an xian propaganda site don't help.............
I note that neither McFall nor other xians explain why Origen stated that Josephus did not mention Jesus. The pro-authenticity arguments are dealt with quite well here. |
25th April 2012, 11:14 AM | #2312 |
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DOC, we've already dealt with the following regarding the failure of fulfillment of Bible prophecies:
1) Fall of Nineveh 2) Fall of Tyre 3) Nebuchadnezzar's invasion of Egypt 4) Conquest of Babylon 5) New Testament fulfillment of Old Testament Prophecies In all of these we've reached something of an impasse. Most of us see them as absolute failures. You alone maintain they were fulfilled. Neither side is likely to back down. Do you know of any other Bible prophecies you would assert were dramatically fulfilled? If so, we could discuss those. If not, it would seem we've exhausted this topic. |
25th April 2012, 11:23 AM | #2313 |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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25th April 2012, 12:13 PM | #2314 |
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25th April 2012, 04:36 PM | #2315 |
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Emphasis mine
DOC, if your stuck for ideas, try this one I mentioned earlier in the thread;
Quote:
I'm of the opinion that this is obviously a failure on Jesus' part and is indicative of the inherent and obvious failings of the bible. If you ignore this then your M.O. would suggest that I'm right. |
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"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP |
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25th April 2012, 05:19 PM | #2316 |
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A rock tomb the ''heart of the Earth''? I know that the bible is full of misinformation but that is pushing it a bit.
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25th April 2012, 05:27 PM | #2317 |
Michael McDonald 1967 - 2021
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Let's not give him an out here Dafydd, I don't want DOC to
BTW: Do you ever go to bed? BTW2: Next time I'm in Belgium is there any chance I can have a rifle through your record collection? ETA: Record = CD/MP3 for all you whipper-snappers. |
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"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP |
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25th April 2012, 05:30 PM | #2318 |
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25th April 2012, 05:42 PM | #2319 |
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"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." Carl Sagan 1934 - 1996 RIP |
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25th April 2012, 05:45 PM | #2320 |
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