Vote Flipping

Oliver · 27th October 2008, 09:41 AM

I was just reading the DailyKos and it seems as if there are
voting machines that flip the vote, namely a machine named
ES&S Touch-Screen.

Anyone in here who voted on such a machine yet - or is likely
to vote on such a machine on Nov. 4?

And for the DailyKos haters - other Media is reporting the same
thing:

http://news.google.com/news?source=i...-8&sa=N&tab=wn

Let me guess: The ES&S machines also don't provide any
vouchers, right?

Oliver · 27th October 2008, 10:11 AM

Additional sources:
Salon: http://machinist.salon.com/blog/2008/10/27/early_voting/
NYT: The Electronic Voting Machine Glitches Begin
NYT: Electronic Voting: The Possibility of a Hack

BenBurch · 27th October 2008, 10:15 AM

Of course.

This is why Obama needs to win by a huge margin; The fix is in and we need to win by much, much more than can be fixed.

Oliver · 27th October 2008, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Of course.

This is why Obama needs to win by a huge margin; The fix is in and we need to win by much, much more than can be fixed.

Of course what? There are no vouchers?

Kaylee · 27th October 2008, 10:52 AM

Not all machines have a paper trail. That's just one of the many, many problems.

Here are some links:

http://www.blackboxvoting.org
http://www.verifiedvoting.org

http://www.wheresthepaper.org/news.html
(scroll down for section under Fraud and also furthur down for problems listed by year and state.

Or watch a movie:
http://www.stealingamericathemovie.org/
(can be downloaded and watched for free)

Oliver · 27th October 2008, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Kaylee

Not all machines have a paper trail. That's just one of the many, many problems.

Here are some links:

http://www.blackboxvoting.org
http://www.verifiedvoting.org

http://www.wheresthepaper.org/news.html
(scroll down for section under Fraud and also furthur down for problems listed by year and state.

Or watch a movie:
http://www.stealingamericathemovie.org/
(can be downloaded and watched for free)

I saw HBO's "Hacking Democracy", which was quite hair-raising,
but I guess that "stealing America" is new to me. But why in the
world would anyone allow any voting machine that doesn't provide
paper trails? [I guess "vouchers" is a wrong translation]

GStan · 27th October 2008, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Oliver

I was just reading the DailyKos and it seems as if there are
voting machines that flip the vote, namely a machine named
ES&S Touch-Screen.

Anyone in here who voted on such a machine yet - or is likely
to vote on such a machine on Nov. 4?

And for the DailyKos haters - other Media is reporting the same
thing:

http://news.google.com/news?source=i...-8&sa=N&tab=wn

Let me guess: The ES&S machines also don't provide any
vouchers, right?

They have to do something to neutralize all that ACORN fraud, don't they?

BenBurch · 27th October 2008, 11:32 AM

The reason it is allowed, Oliver, the WHOLE reason, was to allow the GOP to steal elections. The "Help America Vote" act the GOP pushed through after they needed the Supreme Court to steal the 2000 election made their win in 2004 possible and is going to be used to steal this one if they can.

See http://www.bradblog.com/ for the up-to-the-minute news on this issue from an objective source. (He is not a Democrat or a Liberal! And he is proof that I can get along with non-Democrats as he is a good friend of mine.)

GStan · 27th October 2008, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

The reason it is allowed, Oliver, the WHOLE reason, was to allow the GOP to steal elections. The "Help America Vote" act the GOP pushed through after they needed the Supreme Court to steal the 2000 election made their win in 2004 possible and is going to be used to steal this one if they can.

See http://www.bradblog.com/ for the up-to-the-minute news on this issue from an objective source. (He is not a Democrat or a Liberal! And he is proof that I can get along with non-Democrats as he is a good friend of mine.)

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/media/me...count_4-3.html

Oliver · 27th October 2008, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

The reason it is allowed, Oliver, the WHOLE reason, was to allow the GOP to steal elections. The "Help America Vote" act the GOP pushed through after they needed the Supreme Court to steal the 2000 election made their win in 2004 possible and is going to be used to steal this one if they can.

See http://www.bradblog.com/ for the up-to-the-minute news on this issue from an objective source. (He is not a Democrat or a Liberal! And he is proof that I can get along with non-Democrats as he is a good friend of mine.)

I honestly don't see how the "Help America Vote Act" improves anything.
But to say that House and Senate were conspiring against "we the people"
sounds absurd as well - to be honest.

And I also thought that the counties decide about what kind of voting
machines they will use in elections - or at least that the state decides.
Does HAVA overwrite State-regulation?

Oliver · 27th October 2008, 04:15 PM

Anyone having experience with voting machines yet in early voting states?

BenBurch · 27th October 2008, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by GStan

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/media/me...count_4-3.html

http://www.daveross.com/marklevine.html

Oh, yes, and the recounting under the standard of the FL Supreme Court has Gore winning. So nice try.

Elizabeth I · 27th October 2008, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

The reason it is allowed, Oliver, the WHOLE reason, was to allow the GOP to steal elections. The "Help America Vote" act the GOP pushed through after they needed the Supreme Court to steal the 2000 election made their win in 2004 possible and is going to be used to steal this one if they can.

See http://www.bradblog.com/ for the up-to-the-minute news on this issue from an objective source. (He is not a Democrat or a Liberal! And he is proof that I can get along with non-Democrats as he is a good friend of mine.)

Unless you were being funny, which I hope you were, because I think of you as much smarter than that.

dudalb · 27th October 2008, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Elizabeth I

Unless you were being funny, which I hope you were, because I think of you as much smarter than that.

It is sad to see Ben stray into CT territory based on his hatred of the GOP.

David Wong · 27th October 2008, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Elizabeth I

Unless you were being funny, which I hope you were, because I think of you as much smarter than that.

He may be, but at election time his brain vanishes and leaves a cloud of dust behind. Bizarre and sad to watch.

dudalb · 27th October 2008, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by David Wong

He may be, but at election time his brain vanishes and leaves a cloud of dust behind. Bizarre and sad to watch.

There is a lot of that going around. And Ben is not the worst case.

BenBurch · 27th October 2008, 10:00 PM

I'll be happy to find out I am wrong.

R.Mackey · 27th October 2008, 10:07 PM

Hypothetical, but honest, question: If vote theft is so widespread and easy, why do we only hear about the Republicans doing it? Do they just cheat better?

Are Democrats too busy trying to save the world? Thought never occurred to them?

Seriously, if this is real, why not cheat back? Or are they already doing so?

BenBurch · 27th October 2008, 10:12 PM

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." -Mahatma Gandhi, (attributed)

KoihimeNakamura · 27th October 2008, 11:32 PM

Ah, another vote CT

Sasha · 28th October 2008, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Anyone having experience with voting machines yet in early voting states?

I voted last weekend (I live a few miles north of Austin in Georgetown). They had a touch-screen voting thing but I have no idea what model or make it was. Every previous election I've voted in here had paper ballots. What kind of "experience" are you talking about?

Oliver · 28th October 2008, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by Sasha

I voted last weekend (I live a few miles north of Austin in Georgetown). They had a touch-screen voting thing but I have no idea what model or make it was. Every previous election I've voted in here had paper ballots. What kind of "experience" are you talking about?

Well, something like this, for example:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

WildCat · 28th October 2008, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by R.Mackey

Seriously, if this is real, why not cheat back? Or are they already doing so?

If this were real, it would be a simple thing to prove. After all, the machines can be tested and we even know who has acess to them.

This thread belongs in Conspiracy Theories.

Sasha · 28th October 2008, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Well, something like this, for example:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

No, I'm pretty sure Bush or Kerry weren't on my screen.

BenBurch · 28th October 2008, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

If this were real, it would be a simple thing to prove. After all, the machines can be tested and we even know who has acess to them.

This thread belongs in Conspiracy Theories.

Except that people have tried to get the machines tested in the past and found that since the election companies own all the machines, they could not get their hands on them. Also there is no way to verify what program loads were in place in the event. Also not only the machines themselves but the tabulators were in question. Also not only the machines but the NUMBER of machines (as they slow down the process) has been used to suppress turnout. Also, as we saw in Ohio in 2004 (and there were successful criminal prosecutions) recounts using the machines are trivially rigged.

WildCat · 28th October 2008, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Except that people have tried to get the machines tested in the past and found that since the election companies own all the machines, they could not get their hands on them. Also there is no way to verify what program loads were in place in the event. Also not only the machines themselves but the tabulators were in question. Also not only the machines but the NUMBER of machines (as they slow down the process) has been used to suppress turnout. Also, as we saw in Ohio in 2004 (and there were successful criminal prosecutions) recounts using the machines are trivially rigged.

Oh, BS. The machines are still there and can be tested. And if this was a vote-stealing scheme by the GOP and the company it's the worst scheme ever - it would have to be 100% successful to work, and it was found out the first day of early voting.

It's either operator error or a flaky touch screen. It's certainly not some elaborate but incredibly stupid vote-stealing scheme.

dudalb · 28th October 2008, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." -Mahatma Gandhi, (attributed)

Nice cop out, Ben.
Of course being an Illnois Democrat I can undestand why you don't want to discuss Democratic hanky panky.

dudalb · 28th October 2008, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Oh, BS. The machines are still there and can be tested. And if this was a vote-stealing scheme by the GOP and the company it's the worst scheme ever - it would have to be 100% successful to work, and it was found out the first day of early voting.

It's either operator error or a flaky touch screen. It's certainly not some elaborate but incredibly stupid vote-stealing scheme.

It's the "Diebold and the other companies are in on it" part that sends this into woo territory.
To be fair, I think the Dems have a lot of legit complaints about Florida in 2000..I do think some GOP electiion officials acted in a very biased manner in the aftermath....and we will probably never know what really happened.
But I have seen no convincing proof that the 2004 election was stolen.
And , beleive me, if I though the GOP was stealing every electiion, I would be the first to want some people hung.
I think it might be a good idea for states and counties to actually BUY the machines rather then rent them...it might be cheaper in the long run...but still, if there was an investigation I presume that the companies would have to turn over the machines if supeonaed.

ktesibios · 28th October 2008, 11:50 AM

Rigging a voting machine to change votes visibly, right in the voter's face, has got to be the stupidest possible way to attempt rigging an election. That's like a pickpocket using a flashing neon sign reading "SOMEONE IS PICKING YOUR POCKET" to distract the mark.

NWO Kitty's son is going to wish he'd kept that street-sweeping job.

Oliver · 28th October 2008, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by ktesibios

Rigging a voting machine to change votes visibly, right in the voter's face, has got to be the stupidest possible way

Yes. But Wildcat will tell you it's a conspiracy.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

By the way - why was the thread moved?

dudalb · 28th October 2008, 12:36 PM

Look, both parties are going to try to get away with crap. I don't see anybody (outside a few fanatic partisans who think their pary is made of angels and the other party of devils incarnate) denying that.
I just find the whole "The Machines are fixed at the factory, and electronic voting is part of conspiracy to steal elections" routine to be silly and ridiculous, and driven more by partisan fury then anything else.

LightinDarkness · 28th October 2008, 03:12 PM

Its part of the media/DNC propaganda campaign to make people believe that somehow the GOP can only "steal" elections and never win. The truth is that both parties are engaged in voter fraud, it just so happens that the DNC is far better at spinning the media to make itself look innocent.

But, because most American voters are dumb (see some of the people in this thread), they will believe it. Of course if you actually do some thinking it becomes clear this was a simple glitch: If the GOP was out to steal elections, why would they make it obvious that votes were being switched ON THE SCREEN SO THAT YOU CAN SEE IT? Smart enough to steal the elections of the most powerful country in the world, but not smart enough to make sure it isn't obvious?

Please. This is was a technology glitch, and the DNC propaganda artists went wild and the dumb voters ate it up.

DavidS · 28th October 2008, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

But why in the world would anyone allow any voting machine that doesn't provide paper trails?

I don't know what you mean by "paper trails" (nor am I yet convinced that you've settled on that, either), but "receipt-freeness" is an important property of election protocols.

The "secret" part of "secret ballot" is more important than many folks realize. Any election protocol that provides means to determine how any specific voter voted is more exposed to corruption by votes "bought" by giving the voter money or letting him keep his legs intact. Paying Bob for his vote is less attractive if you can't be sure Bob kept his end of the deal. Threatening Bob for his vote is less effective if he can tell you what you want to hear and you can't prove otherwise. If he can't be sure who they are and aren't, it's harder for the winner to use his new official powers to punish those who voted against him.

Be careful what you wish for.

Rasmus · 28th October 2008, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by DavidS

I don't know what you mean by "paper trails" (nor am I yet convinced that you've settled on that, either), but "receipt-freeness" is an important property of election protocols.

The "secret" part of "secret ballot" is more important than many folks realize. Any election protocol that provides means to determine how any specific voter voted is more exposed to corruption by votes "bought" by giving the voter money or letting him keep his legs intact. Paying Bob for his vote is less attractive if you can't be sure Bob kept his end of the deal. Threatening Bob for his vote is less effective if he can tell you what you want to hear and you can't prove otherwise. If he can't be sure who they are and aren't, it's harder for the winner to use his new official powers to punish those who voted against him.

Be careful what you wish for.

Paper trails are physical documentation on what has been voted, not on who voted. It is fairly easy to manipulate a database that records votes: All I have to do is change a couple of values.

If there are pieces of paper that how what has been voted these are a lot harder to manipulate.

There are concepts for electrical voting machines that will only register a vote if the voter has reviewed and approved a print-out of their vote.

In that case, you can easily look at the electronic records to decide who won, and whoever challenges that result (or the quality of the machines, or the integrity of those handling the machines) can simply count the prints.

At no time is there a connection of who actually voted what.

fezzic · 28th October 2008, 05:05 PM

I don't know how paper trails are supposed to help out or prove. Even if the machine printed a receipt that showed how I 'voted' how the heck can I be sure that the machine isn't lying to me.

I just went and voted early at City Hall. I chose the paper ballot which requires you to fill in a block with a ballpoint pen for each race. After filling it out, I am directed to insert the completed ballot into the slot of a machine and if it don't spit it back out the vote is 'valid' and accepted -- I don't think it scans and tallys at this point.

I walk out of City Hall with a piece of paper that identifies what Congressional and Representative district I can vote in that the ballot was for and a serial number of the ballot -- which gets tallied to my name (I had to fill out a simple application and produce picture ID, that is cross checked against the voter rolls, to get a ballot). I have no objective way of PROVING that my vote was or will be tallied faithfully. I have to take that on faith and trust.

If you have no faith or trust in the 'system' then there is NO manner of voting, paper trails, etc. that will suffice.

thaiboxerken · 28th October 2008, 05:14 PM

This must be a conspiracy theory, because only crackpot papers are reporting on it...you know, NPR, CNN, New York Times....Fox News.

PhantomWolf · 28th October 2008, 06:43 PM

Well the machine in the video that Oliver posted was keeping a paper track of what was being voted for. The moral of the story is exactly the same as if you are doing a paper ballot, make sure that it's completed correctly and as you want it before confirming your vote. If you screw up, or the machine screws up, make sure it's fixed. If you don't bother checking, then it's your own fault.

gnome · 28th October 2008, 07:09 PM

Every electronic voting system I've seen described, even paperless ones, show a final confirmation. If it has recorded the wrong vote, why would you confirm it? At that point you have the ability to demand another machine or a different method of voting...

It's not one-click shopping here...

I'm far more worried about manipulation after the fact.

defaultdotxbe · 28th October 2008, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

This must be a conspiracy theory, because only crackpot papers are reporting on it...you know, NPR, CNN, New York Times....Fox News.

the flaws in the systems are not the conspiracy theory, the conspiracy theory is the notion that they were designed that way with the intention of giving the election to the republicans

KoihimeNakamura · 29th October 2008, 12:59 AM

There are two ways this could be stupidity rather than malice:

1) Calibration error.
2) Pushing on the edges such that one then the next triggers.

I just don't see enough evidence that it's neither of the above.

27th October 2008, 09:41 AM	#1
Oliver Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 17,396	Vote Flipping I was just reading the DailyKos and it seems as if there are voting machines that flip the vote, namely a machine named ES&S Touch-Screen. Anyone in here who voted on such a machine yet - or is likely to vote on such a machine on Nov. 4? And for the DailyKos haters - other Media is reporting the same thing: http://news.google.com/news?source=i...-8&sa=N&tab=wn Let me guess: The ES&S machines also don't provide any vouchers, right?

27th October 2008, 10:11 AM	#2
Oliver Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 17,396	Additional sources: Salon: http://machinist.salon.com/blog/2008/10/27/early_voting/ NYT: The Electronic Voting Machine Glitches Begin NYT: Electronic Voting: The Possibility of a Hack
	Last edited by Oliver; 27th October 2008 at 10:13 AM.

27th October 2008, 10:15 AM	#3
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 37,538	Of course. This is why Obama needs to win by a huge margin; The fix is in and we need to win by much, much more than can be fixed.
	__________________ For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system?

27th October 2008, 10:52 AM	#5
Kaylee Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,229	Not all machines have a paper trail. That's just one of the many, many problems. Here are some links: http://www.blackboxvoting.org http://www.verifiedvoting.org http://www.wheresthepaper.org/news.html (scroll down for section under Fraud and also furthur down for problems listed by year and state. Or watch a movie: http://www.stealingamericathemovie.org/ (can be downloaded and watched for free)
Kaylee Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,229	Last edited by Kaylee; 27th October 2008 at 11:03 AM. Reason: fix link

27th October 2008, 11:26 AM	#7
GStan Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,350	Originally Posted by Oliver I was just reading the DailyKos and it seems as if there are voting machines that flip the vote, namely a machine named ES&S Touch-Screen. Anyone in here who voted on such a machine yet - or is likely to vote on such a machine on Nov. 4? And for the DailyKos haters - other Media is reporting the same thing: http://news.google.com/news?source=i...-8&sa=N&tab=wn Let me guess: The ES&S machines also don't provide any vouchers, right? They have to do something to neutralize all that ACORN fraud, don't they?
GStan Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,350	__________________ On why one would debate truthers at JREF..."Kind of like holidaying with a cult, without the inconvenience of having to give away the deed to your house." - Confuseling

27th October 2008, 10:24 AM	#4
Oliver Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 17,396	Originally Posted by BenBurch Of course. This is why Obama needs to win by a huge margin; The fix is in and we need to win by much, much more than can be fixed. Of course what? There are no vouchers?

27th October 2008, 11:09 AM	#6
Oliver Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 17,396	Originally Posted by Kaylee Not all machines have a paper trail. That's just one of the many, many problems. Here are some links: http://www.blackboxvoting.org http://www.verifiedvoting.org http://www.wheresthepaper.org/news.html (scroll down for section under Fraud and also furthur down for problems listed by year and state. Or watch a movie: http://www.stealingamericathemovie.org/ (can be downloaded and watched for free) I saw HBO's "Hacking Democracy", which was quite hair-raising, but I guess that "stealing America" is new to me. But why in the world would anyone allow any voting machine that doesn't provide paper trails? [I guess "vouchers" is a wrong translation]

27th October 2008, 11:32 AM	#8
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 37,538	The reason it is allowed, Oliver, the WHOLE reason, was to allow the GOP to steal elections. The "Help America Vote" act the GOP pushed through after they needed the Supreme Court to steal the 2000 election made their win in 2004 possible and is going to be used to steal this one if they can. See http://www.bradblog.com/ for the up-to-the-minute news on this issue from an objective source. (He is not a Democrat or a Liberal! And he is proof that I can get along with non-Democrats as he is a good friend of mine.)
	__________________ For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system?

27th October 2008, 11:41 AM	#9
GStan Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,350	Originally Posted by BenBurch The reason it is allowed, Oliver, the WHOLE reason, was to allow the GOP to steal elections. The "Help America Vote" act the GOP pushed through after they needed the Supreme Court to steal the 2000 election made their win in 2004 possible and is going to be used to steal this one if they can. See http://www.bradblog.com/ for the up-to-the-minute news on this issue from an objective source. (He is not a Democrat or a Liberal! And he is proof that I can get along with non-Democrats as he is a good friend of mine.) http://www.pbs.org/newshour/media/me...count_4-3.html
GStan Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,350	__________________ On why one would debate truthers at JREF..."Kind of like holidaying with a cult, without the inconvenience of having to give away the deed to your house." - Confuseling Last edited by GStan; 27th October 2008 at 11:42 AM.

27th October 2008, 11:43 AM	#10
Oliver Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 17,396	Originally Posted by BenBurch The reason it is allowed, Oliver, the WHOLE reason, was to allow the GOP to steal elections. The "Help America Vote" act the GOP pushed through after they needed the Supreme Court to steal the 2000 election made their win in 2004 possible and is going to be used to steal this one if they can. See http://www.bradblog.com/ for the up-to-the-minute news on this issue from an objective source. (He is not a Democrat or a Liberal! And he is proof that I can get along with non-Democrats as he is a good friend of mine.) I honestly don't see how the "Help America Vote Act" improves anything. But to say that House and Senate were conspiring against "we the people" sounds absurd as well - to be honest. And I also thought that the counties decide about what kind of voting machines they will use in elections - or at least that the state decides. Does HAVA overwrite State-regulation?

27th October 2008, 04:15 PM	#11
Oliver Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 17,396	Anyone having experience with voting machines yet in early voting states?

27th October 2008, 04:21 PM	#12
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 37,538	Originally Posted by GStan http://www.pbs.org/newshour/media/me...count_4-3.html http://www.daveross.com/marklevine.html Oh, yes, and the recounting under the standard of the FL Supreme Court has Gore winning. So nice try.
	__________________ For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system?

27th October 2008, 07:02 PM	#13
Elizabeth I Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Defending the Alamo Posts: 9,930	Originally Posted by BenBurch The reason it is allowed, Oliver, the WHOLE reason, was to allow the GOP to steal elections. The "Help America Vote" act the GOP pushed through after they needed the Supreme Court to steal the 2000 election made their win in 2004 possible and is going to be used to steal this one if they can. See http://www.bradblog.com/ for the up-to-the-minute news on this issue from an objective source. (He is not a Democrat or a Liberal! And he is proof that I can get along with non-Democrats as he is a good friend of mine.) Unless you were being funny, which I hope you were, because I think of you as much smarter than that.

27th October 2008, 07:05 PM	#14
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Originally Posted by Elizabeth I Unless you were being funny, which I hope you were, because I think of you as much smarter than that. It is sad to see Ben stray into CT territory based on his hatred of the GOP.

27th October 2008, 07:09 PM	#15
David Wong Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,773	Originally Posted by Elizabeth I Unless you were being funny, which I hope you were, because I think of you as much smarter than that. He may be, but at election time his brain vanishes and leaves a cloud of dust behind. Bizarre and sad to watch.

27th October 2008, 09:57 PM	#16
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Originally Posted by David Wong He may be, but at election time his brain vanishes and leaves a cloud of dust behind. Bizarre and sad to watch. There is a lot of that going around. And Ben is not the worst case.

27th October 2008, 10:00 PM	#17
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 37,538	I'll be happy to find out I am wrong.
	__________________ For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system?

27th October 2008, 10:07 PM	#18
R.Mackey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 7,854	Hypothetical, but honest, question: If vote theft is so widespread and easy, why do we only hear about the Republicans doing it? Do they just cheat better? Are Democrats too busy trying to save the world? Thought never occurred to them? Seriously, if this is real, why not cheat back? Or are they already doing so?
R.Mackey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 7,854

27th October 2008, 10:12 PM	#19
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 37,538	"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." -Mahatma Gandhi, (attributed)
	__________________ For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system?

27th October 2008, 11:32 PM	#20
KoihimeNakamura Creativity Murderer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: In 2.5 million spinning tons of metal, above Epsilion Eridani III Posts: 7,958	Ah, another vote CT
	__________________ Don't mind me.

28th October 2008, 04:24 AM	#21
Sasha Muse Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 652	Quote: Anyone having experience with voting machines yet in early voting states? I voted last weekend (I live a few miles north of Austin in Georgetown). They had a touch-screen voting thing but I have no idea what model or make it was. Every previous election I've voted in here had paper ballots. What kind of "experience" are you talking about?
Sasha Muse Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 652	Last edited by Sasha; 28th October 2008 at 04:25 AM.

28th October 2008, 08:13 AM	#23
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 59,856	Originally Posted by R.Mackey Seriously, if this is real, why not cheat back? Or are they already doing so? If this were real, it would be a simple thing to prove. After all, the machines can be tested and we even know who has acess to them. This thread belongs in Conspiracy Theories.
	__________________ Vive la liberté!

28th October 2008, 08:32 AM	#25
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 37,538	Originally Posted by WildCat If this were real, it would be a simple thing to prove. After all, the machines can be tested and we even know who has acess to them. This thread belongs in Conspiracy Theories. Except that people have tried to get the machines tested in the past and found that since the election companies own all the machines, they could not get their hands on them. Also there is no way to verify what program loads were in place in the event. Also not only the machines themselves but the tabulators were in question. Also not only the machines but the NUMBER of machines (as they slow down the process) has been used to suppress turnout. Also, as we saw in Ohio in 2004 (and there were successful criminal prosecutions) recounts using the machines are trivially rigged.
	__________________ For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system?

28th October 2008, 08:38 AM	#26
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 59,856	Originally Posted by BenBurch Except that people have tried to get the machines tested in the past and found that since the election companies own all the machines, they could not get their hands on them. Also there is no way to verify what program loads were in place in the event. Also not only the machines themselves but the tabulators were in question. Also not only the machines but the NUMBER of machines (as they slow down the process) has been used to suppress turnout. Also, as we saw in Ohio in 2004 (and there were successful criminal prosecutions) recounts using the machines are trivially rigged. Oh, BS. The machines are still there and can be tested. And if this was a vote-stealing scheme by the GOP and the company it's the worst scheme ever - it would have to be 100% successful to work, and it was found out the first day of early voting. It's either operator error or a flaky touch screen. It's certainly not some elaborate but incredibly stupid vote-stealing scheme.
	__________________ Vive la liberté!

28th October 2008, 10:03 AM	#27
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Originally Posted by BenBurch "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." -Mahatma Gandhi, (attributed) Nice cop out, Ben. Of course being an Illnois Democrat I can undestand why you don't want to discuss Democratic hanky panky.
	Last edited by dudalb; 28th October 2008 at 10:12 AM.

28th October 2008, 10:08 AM	#28
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Originally Posted by WildCat Oh, BS. The machines are still there and can be tested. And if this was a vote-stealing scheme by the GOP and the company it's the worst scheme ever - it would have to be 100% successful to work, and it was found out the first day of early voting. It's either operator error or a flaky touch screen. It's certainly not some elaborate but incredibly stupid vote-stealing scheme. It's the "Diebold and the other companies are in on it" part that sends this into woo territory. To be fair, I think the Dems have a lot of legit complaints about Florida in 2000..I do think some GOP electiion officials acted in a very biased manner in the aftermath....and we will probably never know what really happened. But I have seen no convincing proof that the 2004 election was stolen. And , beleive me, if I though the GOP was stealing every electiion, I would be the first to want some people hung. I think it might be a good idea for states and counties to actually BUY the machines rather then rent them...it might be cheaper in the long run...but still, if there was an investigation I presume that the companies would have to turn over the machines if supeonaed.
	Last edited by dudalb; 28th October 2008 at 10:11 AM.

28th October 2008, 11:50 AM	#29
ktesibios Worthless Aging Hippie Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,493	Rigging a voting machine to change votes visibly, right in the voter's face, has got to be the stupidest possible way to attempt rigging an election. That's like a pickpocket using a flashing neon sign reading "SOMEONE IS PICKING YOUR POCKET" to distract the mark. NWO Kitty's son is going to wish he'd kept that street-sweeping job.
	__________________ Ship me somewheres east of Suez, where the best is like the worst, where there ain't no ten commandments and a man can raise a small, bristly mustache.

28th October 2008, 12:36 PM	#31
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Look, both parties are going to try to get away with crap. I don't see anybody (outside a few fanatic partisans who think their pary is made of angels and the other party of devils incarnate) denying that. I just find the whole "The Machines are fixed at the factory, and electronic voting is part of conspiracy to steal elections" routine to be silly and ridiculous, and driven more by partisan fury then anything else.
	Last edited by dudalb; 28th October 2008 at 12:38 PM.

28th October 2008, 03:12 PM	#32
LightinDarkness Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,583	Its part of the media/DNC propaganda campaign to make people believe that somehow the GOP can only "steal" elections and never win. The truth is that both parties are engaged in voter fraud, it just so happens that the DNC is far better at spinning the media to make itself look innocent. But, because most American voters are dumb (see some of the people in this thread), they will believe it. Of course if you actually do some thinking it becomes clear this was a simple glitch: If the GOP was out to steal elections, why would they make it obvious that votes were being switched ON THE SCREEN SO THAT YOU CAN SEE IT? Smart enough to steal the elections of the most powerful country in the world, but not smart enough to make sure it isn't obvious? Please. This is was a technology glitch, and the DNC propaganda artists went wild and the dumb voters ate it up.

28th October 2008, 04:37 PM	#33
DavidS Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 623	Originally Posted by Oliver But why in the world would anyone allow any voting machine that doesn't provide paper trails? I don't know what you mean by "paper trails" (nor am I yet convinced that you've settled on that, either), but "receipt-freeness" is an important property of election protocols. The "secret" part of "secret ballot" is more important than many folks realize. Any election protocol that provides means to determine how any specific voter voted is more exposed to corruption by votes "bought" by giving the voter money or letting him keep his legs intact. Paying Bob for his vote is less attractive if you can't be sure Bob kept his end of the deal. Threatening Bob for his vote is less effective if he can tell you what you want to hear and you can't prove otherwise. If he can't be sure who they are and aren't, it's harder for the winner to use his new official powers to punish those who voted against him. Be careful what you wish for.
DavidS Muse Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 623

28th October 2008, 05:01 PM	#34
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,372	Originally Posted by DavidS I don't know what you mean by "paper trails" (nor am I yet convinced that you've settled on that, either), but "receipt-freeness" is an important property of election protocols. The "secret" part of "secret ballot" is more important than many folks realize. Any election protocol that provides means to determine how any specific voter voted is more exposed to corruption by votes "bought" by giving the voter money or letting him keep his legs intact. Paying Bob for his vote is less attractive if you can't be sure Bob kept his end of the deal. Threatening Bob for his vote is less effective if he can tell you what you want to hear and you can't prove otherwise. If he can't be sure who they are and aren't, it's harder for the winner to use his new official powers to punish those who voted against him. Be careful what you wish for. Paper trails are physical documentation on what has been voted, not on who voted. It is fairly easy to manipulate a database that records votes: All I have to do is change a couple of values. If there are pieces of paper that how what has been voted these are a lot harder to manipulate. There are concepts for electrical voting machines that will only register a vote if the voter has reviewed and approved a print-out of their vote. In that case, you can easily look at the electronic records to decide who won, and whoever challenges that result (or the quality of the machines, or the integrity of those handling the machines) can simply count the prints. At no time is there a connection of who actually voted what.
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,372	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

28th October 2008, 05:05 PM	#35
fezzic Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 499	I don't know how paper trails are supposed to help out or prove. Even if the machine printed a receipt that showed how I 'voted' how the heck can I be sure that the machine isn't lying to me. I just went and voted early at City Hall. I chose the paper ballot which requires you to fill in a block with a ballpoint pen for each race. After filling it out, I am directed to insert the completed ballot into the slot of a machine and if it don't spit it back out the vote is 'valid' and accepted -- I don't think it scans and tallys at this point. I walk out of City Hall with a piece of paper that identifies what Congressional and Representative district I can vote in that the ballot was for and a serial number of the ballot -- which gets tallied to my name (I had to fill out a simple application and produce picture ID, that is cross checked against the voter rolls, to get a ballot). I have no objective way of PROVING that my vote was or will be tallied faithfully. I have to take that on faith and trust. If you have no faith or trust in the 'system' then there is NO manner of voting, paper trails, etc. that will suffice.
fezzic Muse Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 499

28th October 2008, 05:14 PM	#36
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 31,711	This must be a conspiracy theory, because only crackpot papers are reporting on it...you know, NPR, CNN, New York Times....Fox News.
	__________________ 1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.

28th October 2008, 06:43 PM	#37
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 20,287	Well the machine in the video that Oliver posted was keeping a paper track of what was being voted for. The moral of the story is exactly the same as if you are doing a paper ballot, make sure that it's completed correctly and as you want it before confirming your vote. If you screw up, or the machine screws up, make sure it's fixed. If you don't bother checking, then it's your own fault.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

28th October 2008, 07:09 PM	#38
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 11,065	Every electronic voting system I've seen described, even paperless ones, show a final confirmation. If it has recorded the wrong vote, why would you confirm it? At that point you have the ability to demand another machine or a different method of voting... It's not one-click shopping here... I'm far more worried about manipulation after the fact.
	__________________ Last edited by gnome; 28th October 2008 at 07:10 PM.