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Tags 2016 elections , bill clinton , Clinton conspiracies , donald trump , election conspiracies , presidential candidates

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Old 15th December 2015, 03:34 PM   #1
cmikes
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Donald Trump a Democratic plant?

First off, I've skimmed some of the threads in the 2016 Politics board, particularly the Trump thread, but I haven't read all (currently) 84 pages of it, so if this is covered elsewhere, my apologies. Also, there's currently no proof of the allegation that Donald Trump is a plant from the Democratic Party to split the vote and ensure a Hillary win, so it belongs more on this board in any case.

It's no secret that until very recently, Trump was a liberal Democrat much more in line with the current progressive outlook than any conservative strain of thought. An opinion piece from Jamie Weinstein at the Daily Caller goes over just some of Trump's recent liberal positions.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/13/im...oo-hard-to-do/


Quote:
His rhetoric on immigration also wouldn’t fly in a Democratic primary. But if he made the decision to position himself as a Democrat contender back in 2010, he would never have called for the deportation of all the illegal immigrants in the country. In fact, after Mitt Romney lost in 2012, Trump criticized the Republican contender’s rhetoric on immigration as “mean-spirited,” which suggests Trump’s instincts on illegal immigration may be less harsh than what we are seeing today

“The Democrats didn’t have a policy for dealing with illegal immigrants, but what they did have going for them is they weren’t mean-spirited about it,” Trump told Newsmax. “They didn’t know what the policy was, but what they were is they were kind.”

Basically, the piece makes the point that if Trump had the same positions he had in 2010, he would make a much stronger Democratic candidate than a Republican one. But we're supposed to believe that in just four years, his entire political outlook changed, more than that, that it did a complete 180 degrees flip? Yes, Reagan changed parties from Democrat to Republican also, but that was a process that took a fairly long time and the Democratic Party indisputably moved farther to the left during that time.

The most common conspiracy theory I've seen is that Trump is doing this as a strict quid pro quo with the Clintons. That, in exchange for running either as an easily beatable Republican nominee or a base splitting third party candidate, he'll be rewarded with special treatment by the second Clinton Administration. Either special tax breaks, government subsidies of some sort, deals to let him take whatever land he wants through eminent domain, or something else currently unknown.

To me, this conspiracy theory fails for a couple of reasons, but the biggest, in my opinion, is Trump's ego. My feeling is that Trump is way too much of an egotist to be playing second fiddle to anyone, particularly in a plan that requires him to deliberately lose what is, for him, a popularity contest.

I submit that a much more likely scenario takes advantage of Trump's ego, rather than works against it. It's been reported by several news outlets, including the Washington Post, that Trump had at least one conversation with Bill Clinton in the spring before he made the decision to run.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...5e2_story.html


Now, we of course have no idea what was actually said during that conversation, but it's easy to imagine something like this.

[Redneck accent]Don, I just want you to know that I've had a ton of people tell me how much they respect your opinion and think that if you ran it would be a great thing for this country and they would definitely support you. I think someone with your intelligence and charm could really make a difference.[/Redneck accent]

An exaggeration, of course, but no one's ever said that Bill Clinton isn't a master of telling people what they want to hear. I find this to be much more likely scenario than any kind of quid pro quo conspiracy.

Thoughts?
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Old 15th December 2015, 04:08 PM   #2
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He's a birther. And has great admiration for Joe Arpaio.
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Old 15th December 2015, 04:11 PM   #3
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Old 15th December 2015, 05:26 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Never ascribe to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by madness.
Indeed.
Seeing Mr. Trump as an almost pathological opportunist explains all past and current behaviour.

The OP makes the mistake of thinking that Donald Trump has a core set of political values and, like almost all Americans, would never adopt the exact opposite without a profoundly life-changing experience or the promise of wealth and power. Trump is not a Democrat or Republican or even a Libertarian. Trump is a Trumpist.
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Old 15th December 2015, 05:37 PM   #5
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Motivation is often very difficult to establish. But I tend to agree with Kurt Vonnegut Jr:

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be."

In the case of Trump- I really don't care who he believes himself to be: if he says and does awful things, then he is an awful man. I am certain that Stalin (to avoid bringing up Nazis) believed in his heart that he was forced to do dreadful things by circumstances, but that he was a good person who had only the best interests of the Soviet Union in mind. Well, I don't care what you are thinking, I only care what you are doing. In fact I am willing to reverse this concept: one may have the most evil and corrupt of hearts and only pretend to be a good person, but if you end up doing only good in this way as a way to hide your "true" evil nature, that's fine by me. You become the role you are playing, and if you give starving children food but inside your heart you hate them for it, so what? They are still being fed. This of course assumes that you don't at some point unmask and start doing evil. Think what you wish- but I will judge you by what you do.

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Old 15th December 2015, 05:50 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
To me, this conspiracy theory fails for a couple of reasons, but the biggest, in my opinion, is Trump's ego. My feeling is that Trump is way too much of an egotist to be playing second fiddle to anyone, particularly in a plan that requires him to deliberately lose what is, for him, a popularity contest.
A contest, yes. But I don't think Trump intends to win the presidency. I think he is just riding the popularity for all it's worth, and only the reason he has apparently 'changed his entire political outlook' is because that's where the audience is. He probably never expected to get this far...

After this is all over, what's the betting that Trump turns around and calls all his supporters racist morons?

OTOH, your idea that the Clintons put him up to it makes sense. Experts agree that Hillary is a despicable piece of work, and her husband is no better. The only question is: how many people did they kill to get the money to pay him?
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Old 15th December 2015, 06:36 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Never ascribe to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by madness.
..or a very strong desire to be president. If a Republican was in office he'd probably run as a moderate Democrat.
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Old 15th December 2015, 06:38 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
A contest, yes. But I don't think Trump intends to win the presidency.
Disagree. He really thinks he'd be the greatest president ever. And the healthiest, too.
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Old 15th December 2015, 06:47 PM   #9
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You guys really don't understand politics do you?

He is running to the right to get the nomination, he'll then soften to the middle. Most liberals will be pleasantly surprised at how left he is.

Did you know he loves your progressive income tax?
He's planning on raising taxes for the wealthy.
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Old 15th December 2015, 07:10 PM   #10
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I had been mentally composing a post very similar to the OP.

I think its a real possibility.

Scenario:

Bill Clinton asked Trump for his help getting his wife elected. I'll assume no "quid pro quo" per se´, but just that they'd owe Trump in some way for his help. After all, Trump has contributed to Hillary in the past.

He was tasked with going after the leading Republican candidate, as outrageously as possible. Question their faith or their looks or whatever. He's attacking Jeb Bush in a debate as I type this

And then, after demeaning the entire Republican field with his nonsense, he will eliminate himself with even more outrageous behavior. Then maybe run as a third party candidate, splitting the party and almost guaranteeing Hillary the presidency.

I imagine at this point he's wondering, "What the hell do I have to do? I've questioned John McCain's bravery. I've called Carly Fiorina ugly. I've even mocked a cripple! And these clowns still have me leading!"

Anyway, I'm usually quite far from being a conspiracy theorist. But right now, everything seems to fit the above hypothesis. It remains my best guess as to what's really going on here.

Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 15th December 2015 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 15th December 2015, 07:29 PM   #11
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I'm reasonably certain he's not a plant. He isn't green and seems capable of a large range of motion. But perhaps TragicMonkey can argue otherwise.
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Old 15th December 2015, 08:23 PM   #12
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I have a lot of plants in my back yard. They are all saner than Trump. Many of them are brighter, too.
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Old 15th December 2015, 08:32 PM   #13
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I don't know, but I found receipts on the intrawebs showing that Hillary bought coffee at a starbucks at 120 W 56th street, New York.
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Old 16th December 2015, 06:40 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Never ascribe to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by madness.
Or the willingness to say/do absolutely anything to get elected.
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Old 16th December 2015, 07:05 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
You guys really don't understand politics do you?

He is running to the right to get the nomination, he'll then soften to the middle.
I think the problem is understanding Trump. No one does.
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Old 16th December 2015, 07:13 AM   #16
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I had a Democratic plant once, a spider plant. When it died I replaced it with something much more conservative, a Ficus.


Either one would be a better POTUS than trump.
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Old 16th December 2015, 04:38 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I think the problem is understanding Trump. No one does.
Oh, he's easy to understand. If anything he can say or do will benefit Trump, he will say or do it and hang the consequences and everyone else.
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Old 16th December 2015, 04:50 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
He's a birther. And has great admiration for Joe Arpaio.
Or, if he is a democrat plant, he got everybody's attention by sounding like a loud birther, setting the stage for the official resolution of the birther issue.
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Old 16th December 2015, 05:06 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Or, if he is a democrat plant, he got everybody's attention by sounding like a loud birther, setting the stage for the official resolution of the birther issue.
That won't happen until Obama is hung from a tree in the courthouse square. Some traditions die hard.
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Old 16th December 2015, 05:17 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Or, if he is a democrat plant, he got everybody's attention by sounding like a loud birther, setting the stage for the official resolution of the birther issue.
If that's so, he's playing a very long game. Why wait until Obama's term is almost over?
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Old 17th December 2015, 02:31 PM   #21
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Quote:
Quote:
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Or, if he is a democrat plant, he got everybody's attention by sounding like a loud birther, setting the stage for the official resolution of the birther issue.

Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
If that's so, he's playing a very long game. Why wait until Obama's term is almost over?


I meant that if he is secretly working for Dems, maybe his role back then as a loud (and fake) birther was to secretly support Obama by helping make the birther issue go away by demanding a birth certificate, which then played a role in ending the birther issue.
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Old 17th December 2015, 03:02 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
I meant that if he is secretly working for Dems, maybe his role back then as a loud (and fake) birther was to secretly support Obama by helping make the birther issue go away by demanding a birth certificate, which then played a role in ending the birther issue.
If you were the Dems, would you hire that guy to run an eight-year con?
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Old 17th December 2015, 03:17 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
If you were the Dems, would you hire that guy to run an eight-year con?
Run an 8 yr con? IDK what you mean.

If he was a fake birther helping Obama, and is a fake republican helping Hillary today, I dont necessarily see it as an 8 yr con.

Besides, if I were the Dems and he had already performed the hypothetical birther con satisfactorily......Maybe I'd make a deal with him again to be a fake republican candidate for Hillary.

No 8 yr con needed AFAIK. What is your idea of 8 yr con?
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Old 17th December 2015, 05:20 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
You guys really don't understand politics do you?

He is running to the right to get the nomination, he'll then soften to the middle. Most liberals will be pleasantly surprised at how left he is.

Did you know he loves your progressive income tax?
He's planning on raising taxes for the wealthy.


One thing I don't understand about the whole Trump phenomenon is the constant attempts by the media to frame Trump as a Tea Party right wing candidate. On just about every issue he's proven to be a progressive or establishment Republican. He's for higher taxes, more government control of people, nationalized health care (he's praised other nationalized health care systems while claiming to be against Obamacare specifically). About the only position he had that could be considered to the right was border security, and he killed himself with the right on that by calling for an un-Constitutional religious test for immigrants. There are few more reliable ways to piss off the Tea Party than ignoring the Constitution.

But the easiest way to see that the Tea Party wing of the Republicans don't support Trump is to look at who he's hurting in the polls. Tea Party candidates like Cruz, Rubio, and to a lesser extent Carson are still in the race (although Carson is fading fast), it's the establishment candidates like Bush, Christie and Kasich that can't get any traction against Trump.
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Old 17th December 2015, 07:05 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Run an 8 yr con? IDK what you mean.

If he was a fake birther helping Obama, and is a fake republican helping Hillary today, I dont necessarily see it as an 8 yr con.

Besides, if I were the Dems and he had already performed the hypothetical birther con satisfactorily......Maybe I'd make a deal with him again to be a fake republican candidate for Hillary.

No 8 yr con needed AFAIK. What is your idea of 8 yr con?
He has been performing the Birther crap for eight years. If he is a fake Birther than he was conning the public in an 8-year con.

But rather than argue about the finer points of how Trump might be secretly helping the Dems, I will repeat that there is absolutely no reason to believe he has a secret agenda. He really is as shallow, as venal, and as opportunistic as he appears. He is so vain and so surrounded by yes-men that he really thinks he could be president and that he would be good at the job. He is a professional BSer who really believes the stuff that comes out of his mouth; that's why he feels no shame at all when it is pointed out that thousands-and-thousands is untrue.
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Old 17th December 2015, 07:58 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
He has been performing the Birther crap for eight years. If he is a fake Birther than he was conning the public in an 8-year con.

But rather than argue about the finer points of how Trump might be secretly helping the Dems, I will repeat that there is absolutely no reason to believe he has a secret agenda. He really is as shallow, as venal, and as opportunistic as he appears. He is so vain and so surrounded by yes-men that he really thinks he could be president and that he would be good at the job. He is a professional BSer who really believes the stuff that comes out of his mouth; that's why he feels no shame at all when it is pointed out that thousands-and-thousands is untrue.


I agree, that was the point I was making in my first post. I find it highly unlikely that Trump would be involved in any kind of conspiracy that didn't immediately benefit him in some tangible way. Especially one that would require him to look foolish or stupid in many ways. By the same token, someone that is completely defined by their own ego is very easily manipulated.

Again, no evidence, which is why I started this in the conspiracy sub-forum, but you have to wonder who put the bug in his ear about birtherism? After all, at the time, birtherism had been relegated to the fringes of the internet, to the same forums as the "Reptilian Overlords" and "George Bush destroyed the World Trade Center with lasers from SPACE!". And here comes Trump putting it back in the actual news and giving the Democrats and the media (but I repeat myself) a nice, big target to punch at.

I'll be the first to admit that there's not a speck of evidence to suggest that Donald Trump is being manipulated by somebody (or several somebodies) to look like an idiot all the time. But at a certain point you have to ask why every statement and decision he comes up with make the Republican Party, supposedly his chosen party, look worse?
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Old 18th December 2015, 04:18 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I think the problem is understanding Trump. No one does.
Are you saying that people who vote for Trump in opinion polls do it without understanding Trump?
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Old 18th December 2015, 05:02 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
I'll be the first to admit that there's not a speck of evidence to suggest that Donald Trump is being manipulated by somebody (or several somebodies) to look like an idiot all the time.
Certainly not evidence, per sé, but what do you suppose he and Bill Clinton discussed in their meeting?

It's secretive nature alone certainly leaves it open to rife speculation!
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Old 18th December 2015, 08:58 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
Are you saying that people who vote for Trump in opinion polls do it without understanding Trump?
I'm not Belz, but I do indeed believe that. They're responding to dog whistles. And Trump is just one of many things they don't understand.
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Old 21st December 2015, 08:06 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm not Belz, but I do indeed believe that. They're responding to dog whistles. And Trump is just one of many things they don't understand.


It's still very early in the election cycle. No votes have even been cast yet. I think that Trump's getting by now on name recognition alone at the moment. I know it's hard to believe for those of us that actually follow politics and the news on a regular basis, but a lot of people don't know who Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio are. More people probably know who Jeb Bush is, being a former governor and brother to George W, which explains his poll numbers.

This is shown somewhat by how much Trump's numbers fall when the polls are changed from just people to registered or likely voters. People that are registered to vote or have voted in recent elections are more likely to follow the news than people that haven't. I'm convinced that a lot of Trump supporters have pretty much no idea what his actual positions are, and are basing their support on the character he plays on his TV show, the tough, no nonsense businessman who can get things done.


ETA: Also, Trump is losing both in Iowa and New Hampshire, both early voting states where people do pay attention to politics before the year ends and the primaries actually start.

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Old 21st December 2015, 08:15 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Certainly not evidence, per sé, but what do you suppose he and Bill Clinton discussed in their meeting?

It's secretive nature alone certainly leaves it open to rife speculation!


I have no doubt that Clinton encouraged Trump to run. For all his other myriad faults, Clinton is a great politician. He knows the best chance for his wife to be elected President is Donald Trump as either the Republican nominee or a third party spoiler. Now, whether you want to call that a conspiracy, or just good politics comes down to semantics, I suppose.
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Old 21st December 2015, 10:46 AM   #32
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I think Trump is a a lot more dangerous than people have credited him. I'm not so sure it would be a cakewalk for a Hillary win if Trump got the nomination.
Everyone so far has underestimated his appeal, and they will continue to underestimate it. I have spoken to a number of friends and acquaintances who run the gamut from conservative to liberal, and many of them support Trump.
Why?

1) Because he is anti-establishment. The divide in Congress, inability to pass legislation, the government shutdown, lobbyists etc, all have convinced people that their government is inept, and the only cure is to bring in an outsider who can lead.
2) He is politically incorrect. Everyone loves the guy who isn't afraid of being marginalized by saying what he really believes. They see other candidates playing the political spin game, and Trump telling it as he sees it with no fear of political fallout. It's very appealing to most Americans.
3) Despite some of his rhetoric, he's moderate. This has been pointed out in the previous comments. And a moderate is our only chance to heal the political divide both within government and without.
4) He's a businessman. Notwithstanding all the talk about bankruptcies etc, the economy has always been the #1 issue in elections, and the successful businessman is very appealing to those who feel like he is the best chance to run that which is essentially a big business.

If it were just the above, I'd probably vote for Trump. I'm not even convinced he would be bad for foreign policy--he could probably sit down with his bro Putin and shoot the bull, they could swap stories about trophy wives and such.

My only issue with Trump is that he is a paranoid, delusional, egomaniac. He is the classic conspiracy theorist (another reason for his appeal with conservatives)--from the vaccination nonsense to theories about China being responsible for the global warming hoax, to the birther stuff--it's pure Anti-Science. Not to mention the scary rhetoric about banning whole classes of people in the name of 'security'

But to most people--this isn't a problem, just a minor diversion. Science and factual denial just doesn't register with the vast majority. They just want someone who seems tough and who says what they want to hear. That's what makes him such a dangerous candidate.

Once Trump becomes president, he will peel back the mask and reveal himself as the warlord alien-lizard that he actually is, and then it will be too late
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Old 21st December 2015, 04:32 PM   #33
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by stanfr View Post
[...] But to most people--this isn't a problem, just a minor diversion. Science and factual denial just doesn't register with the vast majority. They just want someone who seems tough and who says what they want to hear. That's what makes him such a dangerous candidate.
If you know anything about how Trump does high-level business deals then you will know that he is using exactly the same tactics to win over the US public. One of these "moves" is to agree with everything they like, become "one of them", develop a strong bond of similar likes and dislikes. It doesn't matter that you may be personally repulsed, as long as you get them thinking they are your buddy. Then you can start to push your side of any deal as buddy-to-buddy, rather than as face-to-face foes. It's the old "honey attracts more flies than vinegar" approach.

So here's Trump doing exactly that. He's tough like they want, and says what they want to hear. Classic, ain't it! Works a charm, seeing how many dimwits have fallen for it.
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Old 21st December 2015, 05:01 PM   #34
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All Trump has to do is run as a third party and Clinton will be a shoe-in.
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Old 21st December 2015, 05:12 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
All Trump has to do is run as a third party and Clinton will be a shoe-in.
I wonder if the Gay Old Party could survive?
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Old 21st December 2015, 05:19 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
I'm reasonably certain he's not a plant. He isn't green and seems capable of a large range of motion.
On the other hand, it might explain the hair.
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Old 21st December 2015, 05:24 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
On the other hand, it might explain the hair.
Do you also think of seaweed waving in the surf?
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Old 28th December 2015, 09:40 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
I'm reasonably certain he's not a plant. He isn't green and seems capable of a large range of motion. But perhaps TragicMonkey can argue otherwise.
Trump is not only a plant. Trump is a GOP GMO.

The GOP didn't want a Green candidate. So they had Monsato design a plant that added CO2 to the atmosphere instead of O2. Every time Donnie opens his mouth, more hot air comes out.

Perhaps Pappamundi can confirm my theory.
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Old 29th December 2015, 10:32 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
If you know anything about how Trump does high-level business deals then you will know that he is using exactly the same tactics to win over the US public. One of these "moves" is to agree with everything they like, become "one of them", develop a strong bond of similar likes and dislikes. It doesn't matter that you may be personally repulsed, as long as you get them thinking they are your buddy. Then you can start to push your side of any deal as buddy-to-buddy, rather than as face-to-face foes. It's the old "honey attracts more flies than vinegar" approach.

So here's Trump doing exactly that. He's tough like they want, and says what they want to hear. Classic, ain't it! Works a charm, seeing how many dimwits have fallen for it.
Trump is using sweet talk? When did that happen?
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Old 29th December 2015, 01:48 PM   #40
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Honey attracts more flies than vinegar but fresh poop attracts even more flies.

Who thinks attracting flies is competent campaigning?
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