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Tags 2016 elections , election conspiracies , election issues , hacking incidents , US-Russia relations , vladimir putin

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Old 15th December 2016, 02:07 PM   #41
Childlike Empress
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
They might, but if they do, they should take their Russia back, too.

The desperate morons running these stories sure want their late-90s Russia back. Which Putin broke. Meanie.

That feeling when your mad world-domination plans get thwarted in last second. Not nice.
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Old 15th December 2016, 02:12 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Anger?
Sure, I would say I'm angry that it's now starting to appear we have foreign meddling in affairs that were such a big deal during the Trump campaign. Any bad media for him was a tragedy, and he'd whine for days. Now we're finding out an entire country was working regularly to keep a candidate from getting elected and people are actually defending it? Yeah, I'd say I'm angry at that. How much hypocritical ******** can someone take before becoming that way? When would it be rational?
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Old 15th December 2016, 02:14 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Sure, I would say I'm angry that's now starting to appear we have foreign meddling in affairs that were such a big deal during the Trump campaign. Any bad media for him was a tragedy, and he'd whine for days. Now we're finding out an entire country was working regularly to keep a candidate from getting elected and people are actually defending it? Yeah, I'd say I'm angry at that. How much hypocritical ******** can someone take before becoming that way? When would it be rational?

Dude, you have been duped. The same people who told you on the day of election that Killary had a 98% chance of winning are now running these stories. You have to man up and realize that.
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Old 15th December 2016, 02:14 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yeah, that wasn't Obama's objection to Romney's position. Nice try, though. B for effort.
Yeah, clearly we should be providing arms to Islamsists so they can do battle with the Evil Empire, maybe even expel the Russians from Afghanistan.

I'm afraid you get another failing grade, but you're probably accustomed to it.
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Old 15th December 2016, 02:26 PM   #45
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OK, so is Trump going to go off on another attack against the CIA?

What happens when the CIA just refuses to bother with him any more? Oh wait, he'll just use his buddies at the FBI
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Old 15th December 2016, 02:28 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Yeah, clearly we should be providing arms to Islamsists so they can do battle with the Evil Empire, maybe even expel the Russians from Afghanistan.

I'm afraid you get another failing grade, but you're probably accustomed to it.
Also not Obama's point, or Romney's.

But hey, if you want to keep dancing around the issue, far be it from me to tell you otherwise.
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Old 15th December 2016, 02:31 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
They might, but if they do, they should take their Russia back, too. I'm guessing Russia might have done a thing or two since the 2012 US election that might warrant re-assessing Russia's level of threat.

What does your friend think?
My friend thinks that the conflict of strategic interests and values isn't actually new, and if Russia's subsequent actions surprised you, you're a rube.
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Old 15th December 2016, 02:45 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
My friend thinks that the conflict of strategic interests and values isn't actually new, and if Russia's subsequent actions surprised you, you're a rube.
And, yet, here we are.
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Old 15th December 2016, 02:47 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
The desperate morons running these stories sure want their late-90s Russia back. Which Putin broke. Meanie.
You mean the Russia that had just lost the cold war and was licking it's wounds from the dissolution of the Soviet Union?

You want that back?
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Old 15th December 2016, 03:18 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So... do the 80's still want their foreign policy back?

Asking for a friend.

The "I'm so old I can remember when" jokes practically write themselves, don't they?
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Old 15th December 2016, 03:42 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
You mean the Russia that had just lost the cold war and was licking it's wounds from the dissolution of the Soviet Union?

You want that back?

I don't want that back at all. You are obviously totally clueless about the timeline. The Russia Putin got President of had not "just lost the cold war", it had went through almost a decade of the most miserable conditions imaginable, comparable to what poor Ukraine lives through right now after the Nuland-supported coup of 2014. The 90s were horror for the Russian people, but paradise for "international investors".

I will recommend again the documentary "The rise and fall of the Russian oligarchs", the best material on the topic I came across in English language (a rare occasion, thanks to public broadcasting of Australia or Canada or what it was - I'm saying you get far better information in other languages). Learn:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 15th December 2016, 05:40 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
And, yet, here we are.
What you mean "we", white man? I haven't been surprised.
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Old 15th December 2016, 05:44 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Dude, you have been duped. The same people who told you on the day of election that Killary had a 98% chance of winning are now running these stories. You have to man up and realize that.
I think if you read the above in reverse order, with every third word translated to Redneck Klingon, it would have more validity.
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Old 15th December 2016, 06:33 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
The same people who told you on the day of election that Killary had a 98% chance of winning are now running these stories.
Nobody was telling us that any candidate had a 98% chance of winning. Therefore...

Originally Posted by pgwenthold
OK, so is Trump going to go off on another attack against the CIA?
Let me check...

Ah, here it is: - Trump! Season 2 episode 13 'Taking the Bait' - "Incensed by the CIA's revelations, Trump goes on the attack..."

Originally Posted by ServiceSoon
Has anybody considered that "if" Putin was responsible for meddling in US elections he is justified in doing so?
Anything's justified if the result is good. So say those of us who hate America!
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Old 15th December 2016, 06:46 PM   #55
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While I don't doubt the likelihood of this story, I don't see any reason to accept it.

Does two unidentified "senior intelligence officials" Trump one director of the FBI? We all know how that one turned out, don't we?

Just a comment on the discourse over the keyboard pic. Did anyone else type "blame russia" into an image search and see the same pic twice in the first line of results?
I can find an image online, download it, upload it to a host, and post it, in less than 30 seconds if the image I want appears imediately. Just sayin'.

If the story is true, and Putin is responsible for what is alleged, I hope America can one day maybe see the irony of it all.

The Circle Of Life.
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Old 15th December 2016, 07:56 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by shuize View Post
Yes, I've already taken some nice profits so far. That's why I was asking. But thank you for your concern.
Money is the traditional motivation for treason, so hey, at least you're consistently conservative. Damage to the country, the economy, and your own long term earnings? Doesn't matter, got a shiny now!

Russia successfully surpassing us and gaining a victory on a new field of warfare? Who cares, I made money!
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Old 15th December 2016, 07:57 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What you mean "we", white man? I haven't been surprised.
Yes, 'surprise' is the element of this story worth discussing.

What do you think should be done about this foreign attack on the US?
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Old 15th December 2016, 08:01 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
I think if you read the above in reverse order, with every third word translated to Redneck Klingon, it would have more validity.
Killery may be the name of a bird of prey
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Old 15th December 2016, 08:09 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Nobody was telling us that any candidate had a 98% chance of winning. Therefore...
Yeah they were. Huffington Post. I cited it in Fake News thread. Unfortunately HuffPo's readers were being told Hillary had a 98 percent chance of winning.

I say "unfortunately" because I mean it. I would much rather Hillary had won. But denying that anyone was giving her 98 percent odds is ... denial. It surprised me, that weekend before the election. What were they thinking?
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Old 15th December 2016, 09:17 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Money is the traditional motivation for treason, so hey, at least you're consistently conservative. Damage to the country, the economy, and your own long term earnings? Doesn't matter, got a shiny now!

Russia successfully surpassing us and gaining a victory on a new field of warfare? Who cares, I made money!

I'm so old, I can remember when left wing shills were hysterically claiming Trump's victory meant the market would "never" recover.

Forced to eat those words within a matter of hours, now they're throwing around accusations of "treason" for doing the smart thing and taking a profit at all-time highs.

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Old 15th December 2016, 09:21 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yes, 'surprise' is the element of this story worth discussing.
The element in question is Obama's utter failure to appreciate an obvious security threat, and the disastrous consequences that have followed from that willful ignorance. Why is that not an element worth discussing?

Oh, right: it paints Obama in a bad light, when the narrative is supposed to be about how terrible Trump is.

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What do you think should be done about this foreign attack on the US?
First, recognize that Romney was right, Obama was wrong, and Russia is still our enemy, and always has been under Putin. Second, recognize that this is far from the most important problem in our relationship with Russia. Iran and its nukes, and Russia's enabling of them, matter infinitely more. Third, start taking cyber security seriously for once. And fourth, look for opportunities to counter-attack in kind.
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Old 15th December 2016, 09:27 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
As long as you remember your choice when the market crashes and you have to pay for superfund cleanup of contaminated sites caused by deregulation, either one.
I sense sour grapes. Oh, and as for superfund sites, how does the EPA creating one fit into your whining?
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Old 15th December 2016, 09:38 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Dude, you have been duped. The same people who told you on the day of election that Killary had a 98% chance of winning are now running these stories. You have to man up and realize that.
LOL, I find it difficult to believe that you are actually that stupid, but I'm willing to be convinced. When will you man up and admit that nothing that comes out of the Boy King's puckered pie-hole can be believed?
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Old 15th December 2016, 09:54 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
LOL, I find it difficult to believe that you are actually that stupid, but I'm willing to be convinced. When will you man up and admit that nothing that comes out of the Boy King's puckered pie-hole can be believed?
You misunderstand. CE isn't pro-Trump, she's pro-Putin.
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Old 15th December 2016, 09:57 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Nobody was telling us that any candidate had a 98% chance of winning. Therefore...



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Old 15th December 2016, 09:58 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You misunderstand. CE isn't pro-Trump, she's pro-Putin.

I'm anti-Empire (except my own).
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Old 15th December 2016, 10:16 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
What do you think should be done about this foreign attack on the US?
Isn't it obvious? Invade Russia!
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Old 15th December 2016, 10:48 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You misunderstand. CE isn't pro-Trump, she's pro-Putin.
Ditto for Putin, but being pro-Putin means being pro-Trump if you want those sanctions lifted. I was just making fun of CE's advice to "man up and realize" something in the same post where he claims someone was duped.
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Old 15th December 2016, 11:11 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I'm anti-Empire (except my own).
You work for ExxonMobile?
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Old 15th December 2016, 11:33 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Also not Obama's point, or Romney's.

But hey, if you want to keep dancing around the issue, far be it from me to tell you otherwise.
It's funny because you're a hack sophist, and this looks like another doomed repeat of your discussion with tyr_13 from the Carrier thread. He argued the Carrier deal was bogus, but since you can rarely argue things on their merits you went on and on about how it was "good optics." In this debate, Obama got off one of the most memorable zingers of the campaign, and it helped him win the election (which was the main purpose of how and why he replied as he did), but now the "optics" standard is out and Romney (recently eager to join a pro-Putin Trump administration) is somehow deemed prescient.

Regardless, the fact of the matter is that ridiculous (early) 80s saber-rattling toward Russia is out, and the post Cold War environment has been different (fears of sudden nuclear annihilation have been replaced with year-long election meddling; supporting Jihadists to undermine Russia has been replaced by collaborating with Russia to destroy ISIS). You're just daft if you believe the Obama administration "forgot Russia was still our enemy," but then, playing the game of international relations is not like being a drunk at a bar who loudly threatens to kick someone's ass. At times it's more like the women who greet their romantic rivals with a hug and a fake compliment (or a reset button).

Unfortunately, Putin's not as naive as you; hell, his forces decided to mobilize against Clinton precisely because they believe Trump will be more amenable to their interests. The current orgy of Putin hate stems not from what Democrats fear the Russian autocrat might now do, but that he helped put Trump in power.
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Old 16th December 2016, 05:47 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
It's funny because you're a hack sophist, and this looks like another doomed repeat of your discussion with tyr_13 from the Carrier thread. He argued the Carrier deal was bogus, but since you can rarely argue things on their merits you went on and on about how it was "good optics." In this debate, Obama got off one of the most memorable zingers of the campaign, and it helped him win the election (which was the main purpose of how and why he replied as he did), but now the "optics" standard is out and Romney (recently eager to join a pro-Putin Trump administration) is somehow deemed prescient.
Oh, don't get me wrong: the zinger was good optics too. And as an election strategy, it was undoubtedly successful. The problem is that he didn't switch course for actual foreign policy, and that turned out disastrous. Or to be more specific, it turned out disastrous for American interests, though perhaps not to Obama's interests. After all, he's still got quislings like Ben Rhodes and rubes aplenty to cover for him.

The kicker is that the position I took on Trump, that he did a cynical maneuver which will benefit him even if it hurts others, is hardly a compliment to him. But that didn't matter: it wasn't the right insult, it contradicted the narrative that Trump is just stupid, and we can't allow anything that contradicts the narrative.

The narrative is everything.

Quote:
Regardless, the fact of the matter is that ridiculous (early) 80s saber-rattling toward Russia is out
Straw man.

Quote:
You're just daft if you believe the Obama administration "forgot Russia was still our enemy,"
You say that, and yet, you can't marshal any real argument against it.

Quote:
Unfortunately, Putin's not as naive as you;
Of course not. But Obama is.

Quote:
The current orgy of Putin hate stems not from what Democrats fear the Russian autocrat might now do, but that he helped put Trump in power.
Exactly: they seem Trump as the primary enemy, not Putin. Putin is ONLY a threat insofar as he helps Trump. All the other **** they pulled, that Obama did nothing about, doesn't matter. It can't matter, because if it did, then that would mean that Obama screwed up, and that contradicts the narrative.

But the narrative can only hold for so long. When the contradictions become to great, it fails, and Democrats have nothing to fall back on. Which is why they lost to Trump, despite how horrible a candidate he is. How pathetic is that?
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Old 16th December 2016, 08:03 AM   #72
tyr_13
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Originally Posted by shuize View Post
I'm so old, I can remember when left wing shills were hysterically claiming Trump's victory meant the market would "never" recover.

Forced to eat those words within a matter of hours, now they're throwing around accusations of "treason" for doing the smart thing and taking a profit at all-time highs.
No, your joy at the likely disaster and cheering foreign attacks on the US for the sake of your own profit is what makes it like treason. Did you thank Bin Laden after 9/11 because you had stock in coffin makers? Simply making 'a profit' is not enough to draw that criticism.

I wish you would remember when the massive problems crop up that it's from Trump's (and your own) shortsightedness and poor choices, but the party of personal responsibility will never, ever take any of their own. It's depressingly predictable. He'll blame the intellectuals like Mao, the gays like Putin, the Jews like Hitler, or whatever other scapegoat he can come up with (possibly all of them), and the right will pick up their brown shirts and 'take back' their country from the 'subversives'.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The element in question is Obama's utter failure to appreciate an obvious security threat, and the disastrous consequences that have followed from that willful ignorance. Why is that not an element worth discussing?

Oh, right: it paints Obama in a bad light, when the narrative is supposed to be about how terrible Trump is.
Because it's both wrong and off topic. It's a deflection from the very real issue that Trump isn't just dismissing Russian attacks on the US, he's called for them and continues to defend Russia. Trying to deflect from how terrible Trump is by talking about Obama's mistakes is silly. It's almost like you care much, much, much more about attacking liberals and Obama than about how to deal with the Trump/Putin bromance or the Russian attacks on the US.

It's wrong because the type of threat Obama dismissed wasn't the type of attack that took place.



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First, recognize that Romney was right, Obama was wrong, and Russia is still our enemy, and always has been under Putin.
First, recognize that Trump is allied with Putin, and that Trump's administration wants to oppose Putin even less than anything Trump wants, which is to help his own financial interests by lifting sanctions on Russia.

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Second, recognize that this is far from the most important problem in our relationship with Russia.
Why is that important?

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Iran and its nukes, and Russia's enabling of them, matter infinitely more.
Oh, so now you're actually defending Obama, because the nuke deal has done more to address that than anything anyone else has proposed that could actually be done successfully. What was that about Obama not doing anything?

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Third, start taking cyber security seriously for once. And fourth, look for opportunities to counter-attack in kind.
Is there any reason at all to believe that Trump would do either of those? These are things I actually agree with, which is why I'm being so critical of Trump here while you can only try to deflect madly.

Clinton was the one who was going to be harder on Russia. All your points mean that on this issue you would have aligned with Hillary. This was one area where she was much more aggressive than Obama.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I sense sour grapes.
Guess it's time to formally address this specific fallacious reasoning that's been repeated incessantly, often in the form of 'stage of grief'.

It's just an ad hom. That's all it is. It says nothing about the merits of the argument being presented. It doesn't matter if the anger is from grief or from your sports team losing; the merits of the criticism are unchanged.

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Oh, and as for superfund sites, how does the EPA creating one fit into your whining?
What exactly do you think you're arguing here? That the EPA is harmful? That we would be better without it? That business would do it better? No, you're just providing a knee-jerk reaction strike rather than deal with the actual criticism.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Exactly: they seem Trump as the primary enemy, not Putin. Putin is ONLY a threat insofar as he helps Trump. All the other **** they pulled, that Obama did nothing about, doesn't matter. It can't matter, because if it did, then that would mean that Obama screwed up, and that contradicts the narrative.

But the narrative can only hold for so long. When the contradictions become to great, it fails, and Democrats have nothing to fall back on. Which is why they lost to Trump, despite how horrible a candidate he is. How pathetic is that?

Wow, the irony meters better be turned off. You criticisms apply more to Trump than anyone else yet you constantly fight against the (absolutely true) narrative that Trump's ideas and appointees are going to be disastrous, 'because Obama'.

You should have supported Hillary if you didn't like Obama's laxness on Russia.

But attacking the left is more important than country or even your own ideas.
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Old 16th December 2016, 09:06 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The kicker is that the position I took on Trump, that he did a cynical maneuver which will benefit him even if it hurts others, is hardly a compliment to him. But that didn't matter: it wasn't the right insult, it contradicted the narrative that Trump is just stupid, and we can't allow anything that contradicts the narrative.

The narrative is everything.
You're attempting to clumsily re-write your opponents' narrative. In the case of the Carrier deal, the narrative was that Trump "lied his ass off." In general, Trump's viewed as wholly self-interested, fantastically narcissistic, and aggressively ignorant. His followers are stupid.

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You say that, and yet, you can't marshal any real argument against it.
Apart from Putin's maneuvering against Obama and his former Secretary of State? It's curious Obama would impose sanctions against his non-enemy. It's just daft to think the foreign policy establishment, for decades oriented expressly against Russia, would somehow fall under the spell of Obama's amnesia voodoo. Clinton knew what effect she would likely have five or six years back when she cast doubt on the fairness of Putin's re-election.

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Of course not. But Obama is.
Yeah, I remember when Obama "peered" into Putin's "soul."

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Exactly: they seem Trump as the primary enemy, not Putin. Putin is ONLY a threat insofar as he helps Trump. All the other **** they pulled, that Obama did nothing about, doesn't matter. It can't matter, because if it did, then that would mean that Obama screwed up, and that contradicts the narrative.

But the narrative can only hold for so long. When the contradictions become to great, it fails, and Democrats have nothing to fall back on. Which is why they lost to Trump, despite how horrible a candidate he is. How pathetic is that?
This sounds like crappy Marxism. Candidates win elections by casting false narratives all the time. You want this to sound inevitable, but the election was incredibly close (and Clinton's to lose, despite the fact she ended up winning more votes).

Back to what triggered this whole thing and the stupidity that "Romney was right." Russia is not our "number one geopolitical foe." It's easy to overstate Putin's long-term influence in the wake of this bitter, bitter election, but the guy oversees a take-what-you-can kleptocracy. It's a dangerous situation given his destructive capability and the disruption he's helping foster when it comes to international institutions, but China (neo-con hard-on no. 1) has a far more robust economy, and a leadership that takes a long view of history. Obama's line about 80s foreign policy was fine given all the nonsense Romney had been spouting on the campaign trail, especially regarding our military spending and hardware (referenced in my first post, and responsible for another Obama "zinger" from the same stupid debate).
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Last edited by Cain; 16th December 2016 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 16th December 2016, 10:22 AM   #74
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
You're attempting to clumsily re-write your opponents' narrative. In the case of the Carrier deal, the narrative was that Trump "lied his ass off."
That was only part of it. Tyr specifically claimed that Trump got "bent over" in the deal. Maybe other people did, but not Trump.

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In general, Trump's viewed as wholly self-interested, fantastically narcissistic, and aggressively ignorant.
A distinction without a meaningful difference here. If Trump knew what he was doing, even if it was acting in a wholly self-interested manner to the detriment of others, then it's not really ignorant, is it?

The narrative can't tolerate Trump not being stupid or ignorant.

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Clinton knew what effect she would likely have five or six years back when she cast doubt on the fairness of Putin's re-election.
And that effect was... nothing.

She hasn't slowed down Putin one bit.

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Yeah, I remember when Obama "peered" into Putin's "soul."
Tu quoque much? And I've never defended Bush on that account. But at least he had the balls to do something real about Putin's aggression.

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This sounds like crappy Marxism. Candidates win elections by casting false narratives all the time. You want this to sound inevitable, but the election was incredibly close (and Clinton's to lose, despite the fact she ended up winning more votes).
It shouldn't have been close. It should have been Clinton in a blow-out. But it wasn't, in large part because of the insular world view of Clinton and the rest of the Democratic machine.

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Back to what triggered this whole thing and the stupidity that "Romney was right." Russia is not our "number one geopolitical foe." It's easy to overstate Putin's long-term influence in the wake of this bitter, bitter election, but the guy oversees a take-what-you-can kleptocracy. It's a dangerous situation given his destructive capability and the disruption he's helping foster when it comes to international institutions, but China (neo-con hard-on no. 1) has a far more robust economy, and a leadership that takes a long view of history.
Because of trade, China has far less intrinsic conflict of interest with the US than Russia does. China benefits enormously from good relations with us, and wants global energy prices to be low. Russia, not so much. She gets by on her oil exports to Europe, and benefits when oil prices skyrocket. China is likely to be stronger than Russia, and there are certainly areas of conflict with Russia, but it isn't implacably hostile in anything close to the same manner.

So, wrong again.
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Old 16th December 2016, 10:35 AM   #75
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
You work for ExxonMobile?
Oh snap!
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Old 16th December 2016, 10:46 AM   #76
Giz
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
You should have supported Hillary if you didn't like Obama's laxness on Russia.
While I think Hilary is definitely better re: Russia than the Donald... she really hurt her chances of being taken seriously when she had photo-ops pressing a big reset button 'because the US had been unreasonably mean to poor old Vlad'.
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Old 16th December 2016, 01:13 PM   #77
ChrisBFRPKY
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I think it's kinda far reaching, these charges about Russia and Putin. Nobody on the Left even seems to consider Anthony Weiner. Why on Earth would we need the Russians as a source for inside info on Clinton when we have Weiner? Wouldn't Weiner have had access to everything Hillary while he was literally in bed with Huma? Geez, it's not rocket science. Maybe it's a case of not seeing the forest from the trees....

Chris B.
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Old 16th December 2016, 01:38 PM   #78
NoahFence
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I think it's kinda far reaching, these charges about Russia and Putin. Nobody on the Left even seems to consider Anthony Weiner. Why on Earth would we need the Russians as a source for inside info on Clinton when we have Weiner? Wouldn't Weiner have had access to everything Hillary while he was literally in bed with Huma? Geez, it's not rocket science. Maybe it's a case of not seeing the forest from the trees....

Chris B.
Why would Anthony Wiener want to get Donald Trump elected?
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Old 16th December 2016, 01:50 PM   #79
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I think I'm beginning to understand the narrative. It's Trump’s fault that Putin (allegedly) hacked White House comms. It's Putin's fault that Trump was elected.

The current administration are not to be held accountable for this (alleged) massive security breach on their watch. They're just victims like all the whiners who arrogantly lost an election.

That about it?
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Old 16th December 2016, 01:52 PM   #80
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Why is Putin driving a taxi? I would think he could get by on salary and graft??!!
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