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Tags diebold , election conspiracies , voting issues , voting machines

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Old 25th November 2007, 02:02 PM   #121
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Thanks, JDG!
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Old 25th November 2007, 02:09 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Father Dagon View Post
Thanks, JDG!
You are welcome.

The funny thing is; most will take what i presented as an anomaly.
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Old 25th November 2007, 02:23 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Always hated Fosters, even the imported stuff before they started brewing it domestically. Heineken is also brewed domestically now btw.

At any rate, I always found Foster's too sweet with a bad aftertaste.

And there's plenty of great beers brewed in America by the many different microbreweries. I'm still pissed off that Bell's is no longer distributed in Illinois, stupid beer distributuon monopolies. At least there's still Sierra Nevada, the Celebration Ale's will hit the stores shortly. My favorite beer period, imported or domestic.
But... You have Fat Tire in Chicago.
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Old 25th November 2007, 04:44 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Father Dagon View Post
No, but the mere possibility that you can hack into an electronic voting machine is a cause for grave, really grave concern.
This is such an idiotic argument. Why the hell is there such grave concern for electronic voting machines when the other machines have just as high of a chance for failure. Electronic, paper, and mechanical all have an equal chance of being [Rule 10]ed up and screwed around with.

Last edited by technoextreme; 25th November 2007 at 04:45 PM.
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Old 25th November 2007, 05:18 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by technoextreme View Post
This is such an idiotic argument. Why the hell is there such grave concern for electronic voting machines when the other machines have just as high of a chance for failure. Electronic, paper, and mechanical all have an equal chance of being [Rule 10]ed up and screwed around with.
It is more difficult to manipulate multiple paper ballots than change the code within a machine.
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Old 25th November 2007, 05:23 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME View Post
It is more difficult to manipulate multiple paper ballots than change the code within a machine.
what about the machine that counts the paper ballots?
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Old 25th November 2007, 05:30 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe View Post
what about the machine that counts the paper ballots?
You have the paper ballots to count by hand if there is a dispute.
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Old 25th November 2007, 05:37 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME View Post
You have the paper ballots to count by hand if there is a dispute.
but thats only if a discrepancy is noticed AND a hand recount is approved, otherwise the counting machine is just as susceptible as as an electronic voting machine

maybe we should always count all paper ballots by hand, just to make sure no one can even try anything?
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Old 25th November 2007, 05:42 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe View Post
but thats only if a discrepancy is noticed AND a hand recount is approved, otherwise the counting machine is just as susceptible as as an electronic voting machine

maybe we should always count all paper ballots by hand, just to make sure no one can even try anything?
I am arguing for continuing with the current safeguards. I am not arguing that having paper ballots negates cheating.

You seem to be arguing that the opportunity and ease of cheating is equal with and without paper ballots. Is this true?
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Old 25th November 2007, 05:52 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME View Post
I am arguing for continuing with the current safeguards. I am not arguing that having paper ballots negates cheating.

You seem to be arguing that the opportunity and ease of cheating is equal with and without paper ballots. Is this true?
Yes in fact if done correctly Im 100% positive that a computer would be more reliable than counting ballots by hand. In fact it's probably easier to destroy paper ballots than to tamper with a computer if it's done corretly.

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Old 25th November 2007, 05:54 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME View Post
I am arguing for continuing with the current safeguards. I am not arguing that having paper ballots negates cheating.

You seem to be arguing that the opportunity and ease of cheating is equal with and without paper ballots. Is this true?
i would say they are about equal

certainly you cant hack the actual paper ballot itself, but you can destroy it, or simply not feed it through the machine, or otherwise simply not count it, the opportunities might not be available to the same people as with a electronic voting machine, but there are still plenty of opportunities
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Old 25th November 2007, 06:40 PM   #132
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This thread shows, to me at least, that the USA really needs an organisation like our AEC
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Old 25th November 2007, 06:54 PM   #133
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As far as I know, ballot counting is done by large groups of people from the whole mainstream political spectrum. People that has all the reason to be vigilant against foul play and keeping their own noses clean.
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Old 25th November 2007, 08:34 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Father Dagon View Post
As far as I know, ballot counting is done by large groups of people from the whole mainstream political spectrum. People that has all the reason to be vigilant against foul play and keeping their own noses clean.
True but as Jerome inadvertently pointed they can screw up. Recounts of multiple counties showed that Nixon actually received too many votes in some counties.

Last edited by technoextreme; 25th November 2007 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 25th November 2007, 08:45 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
amazing how many non-citizens feel the need to pipe up on the US elections...
Have no fear, this Canadian will offer no opinion on the 2008 U.S. Presidential election. It's your mess, you deal with it.

Okay, joking aside, I will follow the U.S. election to the extent of wanting to know where the two candidates will stand on U.S.-Canadian relations, trade, and the current irritants that exist between the two countries.

I would say that in terms of the process I do find the American system, well, a bit crazy. But then I expect plenty of Americans would find the Canadian system a bit crazy.
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Old 25th November 2007, 09:12 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Have no fear, this Canadian will offer no opinion on the 2008 U.S. Presidential election. It's your mess, you deal with it.

Okay, joking aside, I will follow the U.S. election to the extent of wanting to know where the two candidates will stand on U.S.-Canadian relations, trade, and the current irritants that exist between the two countries.

I would say that in terms of the process I do find the American system, well, a bit crazy. But then I expect plenty of Americans would find the Canadian system a bit crazy.

I would say that the American election system is ******* straightway
stupid. One big smokescreen. Completely undemocratic with all the
dimwitted rules like having to register to a party like in some states.

Then there is this stupid Idea that you need Delegates for a candidate
to get nominated, then the candidate has to raise money (WTF?), then
it's not you as a citizen who's vote counts, it's the Electors vote that
goes to the candidate. Then if the Media doesn't like you, you can forget
about any coverage on your behalf. And only one candidate for the
Presidency for each party will be in the final round - if you like him or not.

And third parties are pretty much ignored.

And then there is the voting machines issue.

Sorry - this is no election-procedure, it's the stupidest thing
I ever heard of. No wonder that idiots get elected all the time. Nothing
from the above has something to do with democracy. But hey, let's
just name it Democrazy. This way the whole thing makes sense...


ETA: I take that back. Creationism is the stupidest thing I ever heard of...

Last edited by Oliver; 25th November 2007 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 25th November 2007, 09:47 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
I would say that the American election system is ******* straightway
stupid. One big smokescreen. Completely undemocratic with all the
dimwitted rules like having to register to a party like in some states.

Then there is this stupid Idea that you need Delegates for a candidate
to get nominated, then the candidate has to raise money (WTF?), then
it's not you as a citizen who's vote counts, it's the Electors vote that
goes to the candidate. Then if the Media doesn't like you, you can forget
about any coverage on your behalf. And only one candidate for the
Presidency for each party will be in the final round - if you like him or not.

And third parties are pretty much ignored.

And then there is the voting machines issue.

Sorry - this is no election-procedure, it's the stupidest thing
I ever heard of. No wonder that idiots get elected all the time. Nothing
from the above has something to do with democracy. But hey, let's
just name it Democrazy. This way the whole thing makes sense...
So, basically, there's no conspiracy to deliberately rig the election, just a poorly designed mechanism for electing people.

In which case this thread belongs in Politics not Conspiracy Theories.

"The system is screwed up" and "people are incompetent" are not conspiracies, not suspicious, and not unusual.
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Old 25th November 2007, 10:14 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by 1337m4n View Post
So, basically, there's no conspiracy to deliberately rig the election, just a poorly designed mechanism for electing people.

In which case this thread belongs in Politics not Conspiracy Theories.

"The system is screwed up" and "people are incompetent" are not conspiracies, not suspicious, and not unusual.
They are true though
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Old 25th November 2007, 10:17 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Redtail View Post
But... You have Fat Tire in Chicago.
Fat Tire <<<<<< Sierra Nevada

And as a further insult to Colorado, the Bears made a spectacular comeback against the Broncos today!


eta: full disclosure, I'm on my 6th 2006 Celebration Ale (left over from last year) as I type this...
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Old 25th November 2007, 11:55 PM   #140
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There are enouigh anomolies to cast doubt on whether or not the electronic devices work, or can be trusted. Like precincts where nearly everyone voted for things like Port Commisioners, but as many as ten percent did not vote for a congressman or president. Take the machines that recorded those votes apart and decompilel and forenscily examine their software, and proprietory secrets be damned.

The machines that recorded our vote were always owned by the people, not by a corporation when I was young. TRhere is no reason for that not to be so now. Nor did the corporations who made the machines have the sole right to know how they worked, and the sole right to calibrate them and record the data. There is no excuse for that now. Corporations have no right to own our voting system. This is an affront to all that it means to live in a free society. Should a coprporation decide that they will, by hook or crook, decide who will be the next president, there is no way to stop them if their software cannot be examined.

The gubenatorial election in Washington in 2004 was almost given to a snivelling little Republican punk who fought tooth and nail to prevent a hand recount. Seems a lot of ballots double-fed going through the counting machine. Additionally, a few ballots got shoved aside without being counted the first time through.

A machine does not care whether there is a discrepancy. A human does.
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Old 26th November 2007, 12:15 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by 1337m4n View Post
So, basically, there's no conspiracy to deliberately rig the election, just a poorly designed mechanism for electing people.

In which case this thread belongs in Politics not Conspiracy Theories.

"The system is screwed up" and "people are incompetent" are not conspiracies, not suspicious, and not unusual.

You should watch the HBO Documentary:
http://video.google.de/videoplay?doc...76866669054201

In the 2000 elections there was a case in Florida that showed
that Al Gores Votes were counted backwards. Al Gore had
MINUS 16,000 votes. And that's just the harmless introduction
of the documentary which reveals a whole series of shocking
details about what's going on behind the scenes - especially
on technical side where nobody has oversight about what's
going on within the machines ... until someone stumbled over
the Diebold FTP-Server and downloaded the software...

ETA: And yes - it's a political issue, that's why I started the
thread in politics. I have no Idea for what reason it was moved
here - or by whom....

Last edited by Oliver; 26th November 2007 at 12:16 AM.
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Old 26th November 2007, 12:53 AM   #142
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During the 2004 gubenatorily flap in Washington State, the GOP was whining constantly about Dems committing voter fraud and that dead people and felons were being counted to give Gregoire the lead. The Tacoma News Tribune did a little digging and tracked down three illegal voters. Two cast votes on behalf of their deceased spouses, for Dino Rossi. One, a convicted felon, voted Libertarian.
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Old 26th November 2007, 02:05 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
During the 2004 gubenatorily flap in Washington State, the GOP was whining constantly about Dems committing voter fraud and that dead people and felons were being counted to give Gregoire the lead. The Tacoma News Tribune did a little digging and tracked down three illegal voters. Two cast votes on behalf of their deceased spouses, for Dino Rossi. One, a convicted felon, voted Libertarian.
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Old 26th November 2007, 05:33 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by 1337m4n View Post
"The system is screwed up" and "people are incompetent" are not conspiracies, not suspicious, and not unusual.
and even then i dont the problem is with the election system itself, just witht he current 2 party political system

but then oliver has some funny ideas about how democracy should work, i recall a few months him saying the US wasnt a real democracy because we elect the president directly (as opposed to one being appointed by congress)
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Old 26th November 2007, 05:36 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
You should watch the HBO Documentary:
http://video.google.de/videoplay?doc...76866669054201

In the 2000 elections there was a case in Florida that showed
that Al Gores Votes were counted backwards. Al Gore had
MINUS 16,000 votes. And that's just the harmless introduction
of the documentary which reveals a whole series of shocking
details about what's going on behind the scenes - especially
on technical side where nobody has oversight about what's
going on within the machines ... until someone stumbled over
the Diebold FTP-Server and downloaded the software...

ETA: And yes - it's a political issue, that's why I started the
thread in politics. I have no Idea for what reason it was moved
here - or by whom....
No. You created a CT in your first post.
Quote:
A machine does not care whether there is a discrepancy. A human does.
Once again something that is only true in woo woo land. Humans screw up worst than a properly designed machine.

Last edited by technoextreme; 26th November 2007 at 05:38 AM.
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Old 26th November 2007, 06:30 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by technoextreme View Post
True but as Jerome inadvertently pointed they can screw up. Recounts of multiple counties showed that Nixon actually received too many votes in some counties.
Yeah, but if you have a system of analouge counting and where some 240-260 lost votes is frontpage news, I'll say it's a pretty good system.
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Old 26th November 2007, 11:22 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by technoextreme View Post
No. You created a CT in your first post.

Huh? How so?
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Old 26th November 2007, 11:28 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Huh? How so?
Quote:
Will they be rigged again since Diebold and Friends are still
running the party?
sounds like a conspiracy to me
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Old 26th November 2007, 01:38 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe View Post
sounds like a conspiracy to me

Well, okay - I'll grant you that - I should've said "discrepancies"
to be more picky about the wording instead using a sarcastic undertone.

Nevertheless - I started the thread in politics since the "discrepancies"
aren't woo, they're factual.
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Old 26th November 2007, 06:36 PM   #150
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For those who are interested in this issue - here's the
Wikipedia entry about "Premier Election Solutions,
formerly Diebold Election Systems, Inc." - explaining
all the problems with those systems and points out
the problems in the last elections :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier...ecurity_issues
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Old 26th November 2007, 07:05 PM   #151
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Hillary for Pres, Obama for VP, Bill for First Lady!!!!!
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Old 26th November 2007, 07:39 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
For those who are interested in this issue - here's the
Wikipedia entry about "Premier Election Solutions,
formerly Diebold Election Systems, Inc." - explaining
all the problems with those systems and points out
the problems in the last elections :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier...ecurity_issues
Um, Oliver, you're not seriously linking a Wikipedia entry to prove your case, are you? In a skeptics' forum?
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Old 26th November 2007, 07:42 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Um, Oliver, you're not seriously linking a Wikipedia entry to prove your case, are you? In a skeptics' forum?

Well, I could post a the summary about this
issue from Alberto Gonzales or Alex Jones
Website - but both refuse to provide valid
sources, in contrast to Wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier...olutions#Notes

Last edited by Oliver; 26th November 2007 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 26th November 2007, 07:46 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Well, I could post a the summary about this
issue from Alberto Gonzales or Alex Jones
Website - but both refuse to provide valid
sources, in contrast to Wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier...olutions#Notes
then why not link to the relevant sources?
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Old 26th November 2007, 07:53 PM   #155
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Let me add here that those who point to Cook County, Illinois in 1960 need to look a little harder at the election. Kennedy won the electoral college by a count of 303-219. Take away Kennedy's 27 electoral votes from Illinois and add them to Nixon's total and Kennedy still wins, 276-246.
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Old 26th November 2007, 08:39 PM   #156
JEROME DA GNOME
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Let me add here that those who point to Cook County, Illinois in 1960 need to look a little harder at the election. Kennedy won the electoral college by a count of 303-219. Take away Kennedy's 27 electoral votes from Illinois and add them to Nixon's total and Kennedy still wins, 276-246.
Lyndon Baines Johnson of Texas.
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Old 26th November 2007, 09:35 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Hillary for Pres, Obama for VP, Bill for First Lady!!!!!
No way is Bill a lady. He's not even a gentleman.
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Old 27th November 2007, 12:11 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
There are enouigh anomolies to cast doubt on whether or not the electronic devices work, or can be trusted. Like precincts where nearly everyone voted for things like Port Commisioners, but as many as ten percent did not vote for a congressman or president. Take the machines that recorded those votes apart and decompilel and forenscily examine their software, and proprietory secrets be damned.

The machines that recorded our vote were always owned by the people, not by a corporation when I was young. TRhere is no reason for that not to be so now. Nor did the corporations who made the machines have the sole right to know how they worked, and the sole right to calibrate them and record the data. There is no excuse for that now. Corporations have no right to own our voting system. This is an affront to all that it means to live in a free society. Should a coprporation decide that they will, by hook or crook, decide who will be the next president, there is no way to stop them if their software cannot be examined.

The gubenatorial election in Washington in 2004 was almost given to a snivelling little Republican punk who fought tooth and nail to prevent a hand recount. Seems a lot of ballots double-fed going through the counting machine. Additionally, a few ballots got shoved aside without being counted the first time through.

A machine does not care whether there is a discrepancy. A human does.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/..._stealing.html
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Old 27th November 2007, 01:00 AM   #159
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The Republicans had a chance to do the same thing that the Dems did about the contested ballots. They didn't. They probably knew it would not have been much help.

And we still do not know whether the electronic voting machines produced an accurate count. I somehow doubt it. The most heavily Democratic area of the state which used electronic machines went Republican? That's odd, to say the least.

Note, please, that the GOP tried to block a hand-recount. I suspected right away that they were hiding something.

Also note that the Secretary of State in Washington is a Republican. He probably won due to the endorsement of his predacessor, also Republican, who was widely respected by all parties for his honesty.

I don't think, after he so casually certified the electronic voting equipment, that we will see Mr Reed back for another term.
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Old 27th November 2007, 04:41 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Have no fear, this Canadian will offer no opinion on the 2008 U.S. Presidential election. It's your mess, you deal with it.

Okay, joking aside, I will follow the U.S. election to the extent of wanting to know where the two candidates will stand on U.S.-Canadian relations, trade, and the current irritants that exist between the two countries.

I would say that in terms of the process I do find the American system, well, a bit crazy. But then I expect plenty of Americans would find the Canadian system a bit crazy.
Well your dollar is called a Loony.

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