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Old 15th December 2008, 08:10 AM   #1
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All of You, Who Once Believed in 9/11 Truth, Share Your Experiences

I am looking for written experiences from people who used to be on the truther side, but are not anymore. I know there are many on this board. What I'd especially like to know are follows:

a) How did you once become a truther? I am not looking for answers, like "watching Loose Change". If possible, I'd like you to write in a bit more detailed manner, like "I watched Loose Change, and started surfing the internet. All I could find were more truther sites, which further reinforced my truther status... etc" or something like that.

b) What convinced you back from truther to non-truther? Once again, I hope you do not respond something like "truthers are dumb", but a bit more specific.

c) What are your thoughts nowadays about your time as a truther? What mistakes you made back then? Were you 100% convinced, agressively promoting the truth? Whatever comes to your mind.


I can give examples from my own experiences.

a) Conspiracy theories were very remote to me before 9/11 truth. Of course, I had heard that there were some JFK conspiracy theories, but had never gone through any of the claims in detail. Then all of a sudden, I was exposed to some truther propaganda. I went surfing the internet and found only more and more stuff reinforcing the conspiracy point of view. I guess it was the lack of any previous exposure to any conspiracy theories, combined with the massive amounts of conspiracy material so easily found in the internet, that made me a truther for a short while. I had no experience dealing with this kind of false claims. I thought at least most of the stuff had to be for real.

b) I started debating my (conspiracy) point of view, but every time I came out disappointed. I always thought I had a weaker case. But still, I could support my case pretty cleverly, if I only distorted some evidence a little bit, ignored some other evidence, etc. Until I reached the point, when I was so frustrated with it all, I knew I had no case. I knew very well the points each side was making. It was a non-contest. I became a debunker overnight. But it took me a couple of months of trutherism and defending my weak points, before I fully realized I was wrong.

c) I am somewhat embarrassed, that I was lured into the conspiracy world so easily. I had always thought I was critical of evidence. I had always thought I cannot be fooled. And there I was, claiming WTC demolition. But that time also taught me a lot. One has to be very careful with stuff that sounds exiting, but you have no previous experience with. Because once you take the first wrong step, it is very easy to convince yourself with further evidence supporting the wrong conclusion, while twisting in your mind the evidence that doesn't.


Share your thoughts, all people that once believed even some of the truther stuff. I might do some writing about this subject, if I get enough material.
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Old 15th December 2008, 08:46 AM   #2
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a) How did you once become a truther?

I had always enjoyed being skeptical pretty much anything, and as an angst ridden teen, (twenty something actually) government conspiracy's fascinated me, by believing them I felt as if I was smarter than people who believed the official story, and telling people made me feel superior, cause at the time (like Dec 2001, saying the government was behind the attack was a pretty wild thing, and did atcaully make you controversial). I used to read Rense all the time (I considered it the REAL news, and all the MSM stuff was just BS). At that time I would have been 20. So it wasn't really facts that made me a truther, just wanting the be superior. Then I just accepted it and didnt' follow it for years, I just assumed the government was lying. Then I saw loose change and the fire was re-ignited.

b) What convinced you back from truther to non-truther?

The first chink in my armour was a fourm called Protestwarrior, which I trolled at, and thoes guys just made me look like a chump...so I avoided dissenting opinions in order to settle my cognitive dissonance. Then the South Park episode...that lead me to Screw Loose change, which lead me here and the Gravy's sites.

c) What are your thoughts nowadays about your time as a truther?

Embarrassed. I will see people who I haven't seen in years, and they still think I believe that...sadly some of them do now, because of me. So now I try to educate people in Real life, and clown CTists on the Internets for lulz.
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Old 15th December 2008, 09:52 AM   #3
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A) I was never a 9/11 Truther but in the years running up to 9/11 I was following Michael Ruppert pretty closely, watching some of the early DVD's that were downloadable back then. Visiting copvcia.com and reading about oil and drug-running. At this point in my political orientation I was very anti-imperialist (and still am) but I guess I found just reading about American crimes to be thrilling in some respect, and there was some of the self-satisfaction mentioned above in feeling that I had an "inside story" on a lot of stuff.

b) Now, I still think I do have an "inside story" on policy decisions but its now an educated one. I dropped Ruppert after a few years, I remember watching one documentary and it was paced really badly and there were some shots of Ruppert and some "colleagues" talking outside of a place he was running a seminar at - and I just got a real "clubby" vibe from the movie. Seemed to me that these people were all reinforcing each other in certain shared assumptions and I guess I reacted to that and decided to go elsewhere for my information. Nowadays I tend to seek more balanced, careful prose and discourse - I wanted to know WHY decisions came to be made and Ruppert and crew, despite outlining some basic elements of self-interest that are uncontroversial, didn't really go too far in outlining how, on an institutional/organization perspective, policy becomes shaped.

I came to realize that the people in power were not the base individuals I had thought they were. This CS Lewis quote describes what I came to realize quite well:

"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices."
- C.S. Lewis

When the towers fell, I didn't feel like at a loss for answers. The "official story" was - on its face - plausible. It fit into a pattern of blowback that America has been caught up in for the last half century of meddling in the Middle East. I was not surprised at all that terrorists in the region would want to inflict harm. As it happened after my flirtation with CT theory, and as I was coming to study foreign policy and world history more closely, I found that the events fit rather neatly in there. I knew America didn't "need" 9/11 to start foreign wars or to spy on Americans - the motive just made way more sense when laid at the feet of Al Qaeda (or Al Qaeda-like terrorists) than to be some kind of self-inflicted, and needlessly complex, conspiracy.

c) Since my flirtation was relatively short-lived and I didn't end up going that far down the rabbit hole my thoughts on my "time as a truther" are not that significant. To be honest I think Ruppert comes out a lot better than many of the wackjobs out there and I think there are parts of his "research" which stand up pretty well. Its just that there's a lot of things these research approaches miss: the world is simplified into a manichean struggle between the "controllers" and the unwashed masses. And when I think back to that time I see it as part of a longer journey of growing awareness - maybe even a necessary step to get me where I am today.

When you look back and see the way your ideas have evolved, even the mis-steps can be seen as useful. And since I can plug the work of Ruppert into a larger schema that I think is "more correct", I think there are sometimes still some nuggets of value you can extract from people like him. Less-so from people like Fetzer and Icke anyway..
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Old 15th December 2008, 10:52 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by ref View Post
a) How did you once become a truther? I am not looking for answers, like "watching Loose Change". If possible, I'd like you to write in a bit more detailed manner, like "I watched Loose Change, and started surfing the internet. All I could find were more truther sites, which further reinforced my truther status... etc" or something like that.
I have to confess that I was secretly a truther. "Secretly", because I never expressed my thoughts about this topics. I was quite unsure if a plane had struck the Pentagon, because I had heard of many people claiming that it wasn't a plane which stroke the Pentagon. But I was strongly against stoopid theories involving a controlled demolition which brought down the Twin Towers, as it seemed obvious to me that two planes launched at full speed DID destroy the towers. At this time, I didn't realize that my statement was also contradictory: I admitted that 19 people had hijacked the planes, but I wasn't quite sure about the Pentagon and the Shanksville planes.

Then, I watched the first minutes of "911 Mysteries", whose link was provided by a truther; I wasn't pleased with the claims that all witnesses in Manhattan were part of the inside job. I didn't like the tone of despise used to describe the "official" story.

Next part in my answer to b.

Quote:
b) What convinced you back from truther to non-truther? Once again, I hope you do not respond something like "truthers are dumb", but a bit more specific.
The answer to "9/11 Mysteries" was a guide. "9/11 Mysteries Guide". I started to read carefully this guide. On my PC. On my PSP. In my bed. In my bathroom. Every claim in "9/11 mysteries guide" debunked the original clip. Every. I was astonished to see all the documentation about who said these claims. I was quite surprised that "9/11 Mysteries" was essentially propaganda.

My doubts about 9/11 were vanishing. I started to finally believe that the so-called "official" story was the right version about what happened on that tragical day.

While reading "9/11 Mysteries Guide", I got soon on Gravy's site. A LOT of documentation. All 9/11 conspiracy theories were presented, and debunked. Then, I read later on "Loose Change Guide", while surfing on the internet. The main critics were quite the same compared to "9/11 Mysteries Guide". Sloppy research, "leaders" of Truth Movement who were frauds, lies... I was convinced.

Then I met a hardcore french truther on a forum, and I began to practice debunking. It was quite funny to see his logical flaws: he didn't trust he governments, because they were the governments, nah. He used other "conspiracies" to prove that 9/11 was an inside job. He used every truthy claim to prove the inside job. Then he disappeared.

But I felt I was a newbie at debunking. That's why I registered on a skeptical forum from Québec (Hi Pardalis), so I could ask some questions about debunking 9/11 conspiracies. Like Edna Cintron.

Nowadays, I'm still learning, but I strongly fight trutherism as it has the same ways of arguing like Shoah denialism: pissing on victims' graves, pissing on psychological victims, spreading lies, and wanting to open a "debate" in order to spew their hatred of thoughts shared by a majority of people, jsut because it was a majority.

Quote:
c) What are your thoughts nowadays about your time as a truther? What mistakes you made back then? Were you 100% convinced, agressively promoting the truth? Whatever comes to your mind.
As I wasn't totally 100% convinced by the twoof, I didn't feel the necessity of spreading the truth. Now, I wish I had known Gravy's site sooner, I wish I had never heard of trutherism which is only motivated by hatred of America.
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Old 15th December 2008, 11:16 AM   #5
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I actually was never a truther but do have to thank a truther for prompting me look at 9-11 and get back into keeping up on current events.
While I vehemently disgreed with him it did promt me to look at the things that I believed and evaluate them.
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Old 15th December 2008, 11:50 AM   #6
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a) NTSB Data

b) I am still a Truther, just not a "truther"

c) I have never worked with such a group of loony toons in my life. Pass me an aspirin.
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Old 15th December 2008, 12:47 PM   #7
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Richard Dawkins was more likely to turn a creationist than I was a truther.
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Old 15th December 2008, 12:50 PM   #8
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And ref- you are not American right? Did you have anti-American attitudes that helped "tip the scale?"
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Old 15th December 2008, 02:01 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by UNLoVedRebel View Post
And ref- you are not American right? Did you have anti-American attitudes that helped "tip the scale?"
This wasn't directed at me, but it reminded me. Yhea, I was totally anti-Amerian, I was of the opinion that the US was the Evil Empire, and everything they did was evil etc. The anti American sentiment coupled with attaching an inflated sense self worth to 'truther' theories (ie: I'm so much smarter than these sheeple) is what I think allows the movement so called to continue in the face of monumental evidence to the contrary; albeit in a feeble state.
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Old 15th December 2008, 03:12 PM   #10
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c) i was very easily convinced by the fancy videos, cool soundtracks, and the thoughts of meeting hot chicks in cut off "9-11 was an inside job" t-shirts out in LA.
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Old 15th December 2008, 03:29 PM   #11
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I was never a believer in MIHOP but I did believe in LIHOP. Hanging out on the Myspace 9/11 truth groups I saw arguments from both sides and I honestly couldn't comprehend the sheer foolishness of almost every MIHOP supporter I spoke with. I saw plenty of infighting among truthers and that coupled with weak and non-existant arguments prompted me to read Gravy's Loose Change guide (even though I always thought LC was a bunch of baloney). I then watched Screw Loose Change and 9/11 Deniers Speak - Exposing The 9/11 "Truth" Movement. Then I read Gumboot's paper on Norad and since then I question the intelligence (lack of) of any 9/11 truther that believes in MIHOP. If I ever feel "pulled" to return to the ranks of truther idiocy, I just go to LCF and the thought disappears.

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Old 15th December 2008, 04:00 PM   #12
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I actually tilted towards "truther" for a time, swayed by the LIHOP-lite/incompetence stance of "Fahrenheit 9/11". But I was never really spurred into action by any of it. It was fairly easy at the time for an anti-Bush type such as myself to believe that the warning bells that were there (the 8/6/01 PDB, the tip about Muslims at flight schools, the James Woods tip, et cetera) could go unexplored and 9/11 happened because partisan hacks were just sitting on their duffs. That actually seemed plausible.

What pushed me away from trutherism was, ironically enough, the spam campaign for their movement, the main truthist videos and the theories they'd adopted. Specifically, Loose Change.
Through a (non-troofer) friend, I'd found reddit.com, a social news site that offered me many useful and interesting stories I probably wouldn't have found searching the internet on my own. I would come to know not long after that that reddit was riddled with truthism, many users offering helpful missives like "9/11 was an inside job, watch Loose Change" and "WAKE UP SHEEPLE!" when they weren't upvoting any and every troofer link and downvoting anything that disagreed with their view. It was through this venue that I discovered Loose Change. Well, part of it. I followed a heavily-upvoted link to youtube and saw a clip from version 1, I suppose. Specifically, it was the stuff about the pods, alleging that the planes fired missiles into the buildings "seconds" before impact. I could clearly look at that video and see that the damning "flash" that they showed from multiple angles "seconds before impact"... came when the nose of the plane first penetrated the exterior wall of the building. Equipped with this lack of trust in their claims, I followed another troofer link on reddit to Loose Change version 2. Then I struck out on my own and found the Screw Loose Change viewer guide and video. SLC put the unhinged, open-ended rambling of Loose Change into the proper perspective. I tried to look for some sort of LIHOP-lite or incompetence, but it seemed that form of truthism had been swallowed by the CD/Larry said pull/Pentagon "mystery" crowd. I also looked for some sort of alternate narrative from the truthers... couldn't find one, just a bunch of "what about such-and-such" and similar loaded questions that they asked even though they already knew the answer you were supposed to arrive at. Not long afterwards, after seeing the outright idiocy of the "Larry said pull" stuff that reddit's truthists were now pushing, I gave voice to my anti-truthism there; the responses I received from the resident truthists (stupid, sheeple, gov't shill, do some research, insults, threats and so on) convinced me that truthism was not the way to go, that the "movement" had nothing constructive to offer except a superiority complex for those that bought in at face value.

I guess if I had to offer any thoughts about my time as a "truther", if one could even call it that... I sometimes think "what if". I share more in common with truthers than I really care to admit. I think what if I had been a teenager at this time... would I have been one of those who bought in, for the sake of being different and controversial if nothing else? But I also think, what if the focus of the movement landed on something potentially more plausible like LIHOP-lite or incompetence, something that could have galvanized anti-Bush sentiment. You know, instead of claiming the man is stupid, yet somehow he masterminded the biggest conspiracy in the history of ever to pull off a false flag attack that would wound the economy in the short-term and in the long-term ruin his legacy and weaken his party with its goals. Would truthism have actually meant something if it was something that wasn't absolutely ridiculous on its surface?
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Old 15th December 2008, 04:09 PM   #13
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i also hate Bush. it was very very easy for me to believe that Bush would be involved in such a scheme of murder and deceit. but then i realized, that no matter how much I hate Bush, it is not right for me..or anyone else..to blaim him for deaths that the evidence just doesn't convict him of.

yet..i will admit....that a part of me still does hopes and prays, that someday, some evidence does come out making it clear that Bush had some hand in either making it happen, or allowing it to take place.

but, until the evidence proves it, I am no truther.
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Old 15th December 2008, 04:16 PM   #14
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I wouldn't go as far as to say I hate Bush, I'm not an American and so to me he's more of a passing inconvenience. I dislike him and think he's got the intellectual abilities of a Chimp. I actually found it funny that Americans voted for him, and in the end I had to put that down to them not liking their leaders to be smarter than they are, and well with Bush they hit the jackpot, the entire population of the US is smarter, including some that live in zoos.

My main reasons for never accepting the 9/11 Theories is because, a) they'd absurd, b) because they'd require Bush to be some sort of genius mastermind, and clearly he's not, and c) they'd require the US government to be sort of competent and able to keep a secret. As I said, the theories are absurd.
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Old 15th December 2008, 04:22 PM   #15
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When pomeroo first had the LC kids on his show, it looked like he was being introduced to these nutty ideas. He had a big "WTF" expression on his face, as if he was thinking, "you cannot be serious." I had the same look on my face when I watched the first nutty conspiracy videos.
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Old 15th December 2008, 04:24 PM   #16
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i remember how scared my mom was when i spouted all the conspiracy theories at her. she was not happy at all that i was saying all these things.

i text messaged my ENTIRE family: "i have seen a new video, which shows compelling evidence, that our own government was responsible for 9-11!!"

i got zero responses...=)

but the point is, i felt like i had discovered something HUGE!! something that made me part of history. i felt like...a revolutionary. like someone who could help change the world.

and then..i woke up to the boring truth.

i admit, defending Bush...sucks. it sucks big time. but i do feel a great sense of decency..a great sense of conscience, that i am somehow fighting to defend the truth, and bring light to the truth, of that horrible day. i know i am doing the right thing.

..but it still sucks defending Bush and Cheney. thank God for their lies and criminal acts in Iraq. i can always rail against them for that.

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Old 15th December 2008, 09:07 PM   #17
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Used to believe that a jolly fat guy in red suit would come the chimney on Dec 25 with
all sort of neat toys - that is until some kid at school told me it was my parents putting
the stuff under the tree....
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Old 15th December 2008, 11:54 PM   #18
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Thanks for your thoughts, everyone. Great posts.

To UNLoVedRebel: I am not American. But eventhough I disliked Bush, I had no anti-American attitudes in general, so that wasn't an issue with me.
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Old 15th December 2008, 11:56 PM   #19
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nice thread. i was a "truther" for all of the 90 minutes I spent to watch Loose Change (2nd Edition) and then did research on my own to see that 100% was bunk. does being a truther for 90 minutes count? I hope not...
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Old 16th December 2008, 04:08 AM   #20
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a) How did you once become a truther?

It stemmed, I believe, from the ferocious resentment I was harbouring towards Bush and Blair for the pack of lies and manipulation they pushed our way to justify the wars in the Middle East. I'll stress here that this was not "anti-American" feeling. As a Brit and a natural Labour voter I cannot adequately express my hatred for Tony Blair. I'll put GWB in exactly the same class.
Then, watching a couple of "Truth" videos that were being discussed on an unrelated forum. This cracked the damn, so to speak. Yes, thought I, those #######'s are well capable of that. I must admit that finally seeing the collapse of WTC7 was shocking.
Much investigoogling led (naturally) to finding countless "sources" and I was steaming so much that the ol' brain wasn't in a fit state to realise they were merely recycling the same bilge.

b) What convinced you back from truther to non-truther?

I expressed some opinions here and received some slaps in the face (some tactful, some not) with good plain information. But - having a good scientific background - I was able to see that at least some of the tripe I was pushing was just flat wrong. This gave pause for serious thought. Plus, here and elsewhere, I was beginning to find links to the debunking sites. Of course a lot of this could have been avoided simply by putting "9/11" +"debunk" into Google in the first place, but I suppose the desire to believe in something wacky can lead one astray.

c) What are your thoughts nowadays about your time as a truther?

Mostly embarrassment, especially as the whole business flared and died in a matter of a couple of months and I should really have had the wit to notice that I was getting much too excited, too quickly, about the whole 9/11 "truth" business. That's never a healthy sign. But it highlights very strongly (again) for me that the power of self-deception is very strong in the human race.

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Old 16th December 2008, 04:41 AM   #21
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Is the LIHOI position considered a "truther" position? I guess I can't answer the question either way because I'm still LIHOI (with qualifiers).

It's fascinating to read the stories of others though, so I'm subscribing to this thread.
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Old 16th December 2008, 05:47 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by ref View Post
a) How did you once become a truther?
By being pigeonholed by "skeptics". I accidentally came across some truther arguments - I do not recall where - and thought some of it was not so easy to debunk. Most people I knew where very dismissive, and did not even want to discuss such stuff; they found it too far away from what they believed and were not willing to question their beliefs. Mostly as an exercise in skepticism, I began a blog asking people to debunk some of the evidence I thought was particularly interesting.
Then I came across Scholars for 9/11 Truth and joined out of interest - mistakenly thinking that in that group the evidence was going to be truly critically examined.

Originally Posted by ref View Post
b) What convinced you back from truther to non-truther?
When I set up a discussion forum on the papers of the Scholars' Journal - supposedly peer-reviewed - I got suspended from the club by uncle Fetzer. After consulting some other members I resigned, having become convinced that I did not want to be a member. Regardless of the merits of certain arguments, I came to the conclusion that truthers, for various reasons, were not people that I wanted to be associated with.
I still believe some kind of LIHOP might be true by the way, but I consider it bare of any practical or political interest.

Originally Posted by ref View Post
c) What are your thoughts nowadays about your time as a truther?
I see nothing to be ashamed of. I was never fully convinced, but merely pushing the conspiracist line in order to see how far it could go. Hardly anybody, here or elsewhere, understood that. It got me lots of flak from both sides. Indeed: the one thing that it has taught me is that the people debating this stuff are only ever comfortable in doing so when they have convinced themselves that you belong to one or the other side. I find that pretty stupid, and very unconstructive.
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Old 16th December 2008, 02:10 PM   #23
Grizzly Bear
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a) How did you once become a truther?
I was quite young when the attacks happened... 14 or so. As far as the buildings go, I wasn't surprised at the results. At the time I was pretty agnostic as to whoever was responsible, I wasn't much into politics at that age


b) What convinced you back from truther to non-truther?
I wasn't necessarily a truther to begin with, but I probably would have fallen for the controlled demolition mantra if I hadn't started my architecture education around 2002 or so in high school. I was unaware of any of the conspiracy theories until late last year, and I started watching Loose Change and listening to arguments such as the one our dear friend Spreston just posted. Much of their argumentation conflicted with the methodologies I've learned to take on in studying buildings for various applications; IE design, structures, materials, methods, etc. I found that many arguments they set forth make absolutely no effort to do any of the aforementioned to convince me why the towers should not have collapsed, and the train of thought that they use basing everything on apparent surface features that arbitrarily resemble certain characteristics, as well as their constant quote mining were more than enough to indicate to me that the movement did not have any intellectually honest intentions. I've refined my studies since joining here.


c) What are your thoughts nowadays about your time as a truther?
Thankfully I didn't stoop to believing it any more than to a cosmetic level. It would have shamed me as a student pursuing a career in architecture, simple as that.
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Old 17th December 2008, 11:38 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by ref View Post
a) How did you once become a truther?
A few years ago the American Book Centre in Amsterdam gave away free DVD's at their counter. There was a picture of UA175 flying into the South Tower (and some text like "What is this?" pointing at the flash on the nose cone). I took it home because I wanted to know more about 9/11. Little did I know that it was a conspiracy movie (I can't recall the name). After watching it fast forwarding through it, I dumped it in the bin. A little later I came across Loose Change on the interweb, and after watching that trainwreck --->

Quote:
b) What convinced you back from truther to non-truther?
---> I Googled "debunk Loose Change" and ended up at Loose Change Guide. On that site, some guy named Mark refered to the JREF forums, and that's how I ended up here.

Quote:
c) What are your thoughts nowadays about your time as a truther?
The only conspiracy I ever believed, was the JFK one. But after finding out how the 9/11 conspiracy theories 'work' (ie, how 'proof' is found etc.) I concluded that the JFK conspiracies work the same way, and stopped believing in them after reading up on them on these boards, and also after watching a BBC documentary reconstructing how the magic bullet did in fact not traverse a magical path (had to do with the arrangement of the seats, ie. frontseat sat lower and more to the middle (iirc))
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Old 17th December 2008, 05:42 PM   #25
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I spent about 6 months believing that the Neocons LIHOP to further the PNAC agenda. Thats when I started hearing about this forum, but didn't come on here until 2 months later. Coming here was the beginning of the end for my conspiracy ignorance.

In other words, it was the evidence of all of those I spoke with that shot down all the BS i accumulated from the conspiracy sites.
I have a deep appreciation for those here and this forum on just that reason alone.
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Old 17th December 2008, 06:40 PM   #26
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[quote=ref;4272088]
a) How did you once become a truther?

Okay, I was sitting at my kitchen table with 2 of my children. (teenagers) We were making prank phone calls with a Mr. Rogers soundboard I found on ebaums world.
(Yeah yeah I know...but screw it... us middle aged schmucks still like to have juvenile fun.)

Well, I came across the "Pentalawn" video. I believe it was from "Hunt The Boeing." This lead me to a google search for 911 conspiracies. I read a few sites, watched Avery's LC II, and I found it interesting. I brought this up to one of my staff members at work. He was one of those dudes that believes that there is a place in Virginia that has recordings of ALL cell phones and keeps them on record for 6 months. Oh, and he has a "friend" that actually works there. He was not a truther, but was telling me about the evil government and what they are capable of. He was going to do his own "research" and get back to me. Thank Christ I put him on the overnight shift soon after that!!

I was watching video after video. I was starting to see the B.S. pretty quickly. I so desperately wanted Bush to be a part of this, so I held on to the most teeniest amount of hope that he could still get busted for all this.

Unfortunately, while trying to debunk the Who Killed John O'Neil video, I stumbled across you folks here at Jref.

Since then you guys & gals have all but destroyed what little hope I did have in getting Bush thrown in jail.

Thanks a lot!

b) What convinced you back from truther to non-truther?

Although I do not think I was a truther, I was looking for answers to questions that I had. Gravy, Mike from 911 Myths, and the rest of you slam dunked EVERY question I had regarding 911. This is why I don't believe I was a truther. I was asking question....and listening to the answers.

c) What are your thoughts nowadays about your time as a truther?

I had fun. To be quite honest, I have to thank the truthers for allowing me to expand some of my interests. I now have a little knowledge in so many different fields that I never would have even considered. Heck, I had never heard the word thermite before Steven Jones! DNA extraction and identification was very interesting to me as well.

However, learning about the victims was the most rewarding of all that I have learned. Most of the world only saw the numbers, few saw the names, and far fewer saw the faces.

I looked into so many of the lives of those that perished. From Mark Bingham to David Charlebois to Nicole Miller. They were all real and they are all still so very missed.

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Old 18th December 2008, 09:35 AM   #27
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A, B, and C)
I've told this story before but it's a good one so here it goes: The first time I can remember hearing that the government had something to do with 9/11 was when I saw "Fairy Tale 9/11" from Michael Moore. I thought to myself, "Self, if they made a movie about it, it has to be true, right?" I wanted to research more for myself but I didn't have a computer at the time and had a lot of stuff going on so it kinda just ended with me accepting that my government LIHOP'd it up. I brought some of this stuff up to my dad who turned me on to the Pop. Mechanics debunking site which seemed to have perfectly reasonable explainations to all of the CT's.

Fast Forward to last year or so: I was making my monthly trip to the local head shop to stock up on black light posters and random products made from hemp, when I saw a Ron Paul sign outside. Since I always vote for who the wise rasta-haired cashier tells me will legalize it, I asked "So whats the deal with Ron Paul, man?" to which he replied, "He's the only one that makes sense, man." As I waited for my friend to buy a giant hand-chair, the scruffy pothead walked around the counter and towards me. He motioned to hand me something and much to my disappointment it wasn't that sticky-icky, but a piece of paper that read, "Google: Zeitgeist, and learn the truth."

Feeling very Matrix-ish at this point, I quickly loaded the oversized hand-chair into my truck and made a b-line for the interwebs. I watched Zeitgeist and thought it made sense. I was poor and unsuccessfull and here was why. The Federal Reserve, bilderbergers, NWO, CENTCOM, Henry Kissenger, and Carl Rove were all keeping me down. Now that I was on Google Video, I had a whole library of CT movies to watch for free. There was Endgame (and like 900 other Alex Jones Movies), 9/11 in Plane Site, The Truth and Lies of 9/11 w/ Ruppert, America: Freedom to Fascism, LC part 1,2,3, part 3 uncut, part 3 uncut edited and then cut again, etc. I literally spent 2 weeks watching what I thought was a worldwide conspiracy being unveiled before my very eyes. I listened to some of Alex Jones' Shows and heard him talking about credible things like the Trans Texas Corridor (which I was involved in protesting against in my states capitol) and I guess it kinda made all the waaaay out there 9/11 stuff seem..... not so crazy. I began talking to family and friends about what I had seen. I showed my friends some of the videos, and none of them are debunkers or physicists, and so they even started to get fired up too. I remember it being a feeling that our government had betrayed its people, killed 3000 of them, and then covered it up, so I was going to help. In some way I wanted to take part in righting this wrong that was somehow my fault. I felt that by me not caring, that I was somewhat responsible for letting a criminal government get out of hand and kill 3,000 people. Crazy right?!!?!

So right as I'm about to print out a thousand-million "9/11 was an inside Jobby Job" fliers to staple around my area, I remembered my dad saying the word "debunked" when he had last referred me to the Popular Mechanics site so I typed in "Debunk Loose Change". Once I sat through the "Hardfire" episode with Gravy pwning Bermas and Avery, my stomach felt sick! I then repeated the cycle I had gone through with the CT videos, but only this time it was debunking videos like "Screw Loose Change", "9/11 deniers speak", "Dylan Avery Shut UP" or whatever that Unsecured Coins video was called.

After the nausea passed, I was just pissed! I couldn't believe I had been lied to and at the expense of 3,000 dead victims. After learning just the basics about debunking 9/11, I began to call into the Alex Jones Show to confront him and Jason Bermas about the things they were saying. My calls led to AJ calling me back at home and going ape-poop on me about how "me, and Mark Roberts, and all my JREF buddies were going to be judged and hung by a jury of our peers for our crimes." This made me even more mad because he bothered me at work for something he didn't have the guts to answer on-air for his audience. After that call I got in touch with Marky X about the incident and he posted my story here on JREF. Ive been rocking out, with my you-know-what out here ever since.

Thinking back I really didn't do anything to regret, but I do have to admit that my credibility with my friends is shot. I had to let them all (or both) down and tell them we weren't going to change the world after all. I had to walk in a room in front of my friends and admit that I had been duped, and that's a crappy feeling man.....real crappy. I'd rather feel crappy than blindly accuse victims or victims family members of being murderers. After hearing Avery talk about Bernard Brown Sr. as if he had something to do with his sons death, I realized how mad/sad Mr. Brown would be if he ever heard that idiot say those things about him after losing his son. I still makes me soooo angry to think about it all.....

Thanks Again Marky X, Gravy, Pomeroo, Unsecured Coins, and the rest of you who saved me from further wasting my time and cred. I coulda been stuck "Metz'd" out in the middle of nowhere.
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Old 18th December 2008, 10:17 AM   #28
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a) How did you once become a truther? It actually did start with Youtube/Google videos of 9/11. During the afternoons I just couldn't stop watching that. And from Dylan Avery I went to Alex Jones whom I saw wondering around those kids, and I was curious about his claims, so I listened to him. And I just took in everything he said. From Info wars to skull and bones to Owl worshiping. I took it all in. I got to the Bildeberg group, then black helicopters interacting with lights near crop circles, then abductions and UFO videos to New Age interpretations of them, then 2012. I became a Raelean at one point, seeing design in nature (these aliens supposedly created every tree and bird and animal thanks to their creativity), and from the Elohim(the aliens of the Raelian cult) I went to grays and of course, the reptilians. Of course, the reptilians were behind every triangular architecture and ancient symbolics found ANYWHERE, including Mars, and probably were the Illuminati, thinking of taking over the world with a New World Order, using Fugifilm zeppelins with some occult technology to look into our houses and spread mind controlling poison through contrails. Obviously, 9/11 was just one step in their plan.
And yes, all of this reinforced this conviction I had in my mind that there was something going on.
And being a young person, still thinking that I had a long life ahead of me, where I could try and strive to do something great, this was a very nasty punch in the face. And I mean that. And all of this just fell on me in a matter of weeks. I was...what? 16, 17? It wasn't pleasant at all. You got this feeling of chronic frustration and powerlessness. All you could do was smile at your family and watch movies. I spoke of this to my mother and she was always "I'm telling you, watch movies." she would shake her head with laugh when I told her than I knew a lot more than her. Now I understand her.
I got to the point where I could just lie in bed all day. Only getting up of course, "wanting to know more" and watching more videos.

b) What convinced you back from truther to non-truther? Once again, I hope you do not respond something like "truthers are dumb".
It was this website actually. And from here to podcasts and Point of Inquiry to a whole myriad of articles and weekly stuff that just gets me thinking.
My God, were it not for James Randi and the people in these forums I would have lost my mind, I'm sure of it. Forever. Were it not for people like you I would have lost my mind.
These forums taught me common sense again. It's like you forget about common sense when you look into this stuff. But you still think you're using it. You're using it but with a conclusion already in mind. It's hard to explain.
I think something MORE than common sense got me ticking.
But yes, from these forums all my UFO/cryptozoology beliefs just went out the window, and even though I was sad in a way to learn that it wasn't true, I'm glad I'm more truthful to myself. I really try to be honest about stuff like this now.

c) What are your thoughts nowadays about your time as a truther? What mistakes you made back then? Were you 100% convinced, agressively promoting the truth? Whatever comes to your mind.
My thoughts from back then...As I said, it wasn't pleasant.
But what a lesson, you know?...On human psychology and gullibility and the power of innocent misinterpretation, no matter where it comes from.
What's better to learn about their mentality than to actually believe a whole range of crazy stupid beliefs out there? And still come out of it with the drive and excitement to listen to skeptical podcasts every week and reading science news from time to time.
What mistakes? It really was an innocent mistake to just listen to these people, and not think it through. And only listening to their perspective.
I WAS 100% convinced, but I wasn't promoting it. I was aware that I might sound pretty nuts. And i mean nuts to the extreme. It wasn't just 9/11 was an inside job look at this video". That was heartfelt certainty that made you look out the window and feel angry at the world.
I recently went to a concert with a friend of mine and we were waiting for someone to pick us up there was this young man wondering around in the rain smoking, and after a while he came close to us, asking us if we had a cigarette, we said "no we don't smoke". He said "Cool, cool. So how are you?"
A bit cold I said and this rain could stop for a while.
this rain, yes." he said "You know that this rain (at this point I was thinking that he was a global warming denier or something similar), this rain s because extraterrestrials are fiddling with the (don't recall what he said now).
He went on about mind control and whatnot (REALLY crazy amount of blatant obvious non sequiturs) but......he didn't look crazy to me. I was listening to him and I didn't see insanity there.
I guess that's what you get from being "one of them" for a while. You understand them, in a way.

I hope this reply is worth anything.

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Old 18th December 2008, 10:17 AM   #29
Oliver
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a) How did you once become a truther?

I was enjoying the possibility of watching documentaries for free at video.google.com when I stumbled over Loose Change. The possibillity of those allegations being true made me quite curious and as a result, I signed up at the LooseChange Forum.

b) What convinced you back from truther to non-truther?

Well, I simply asked logical questions that contradicted some of the conspiracy claims and demanded answers at the Loose Change Forum. So I got banned for that - which really annoyed me and I signed up again asking why they banned me for bringing up evidence against the fake Osama video, which got me banned again. All in all I got banned a hundred times or so. And for quite a while I thought LIHOP could be true. But that vanished realizing the governments incompetence in many aspects - plus the huge pile of evidence and details regarding all the perpetrators.

c) What are your thoughts nowadays about your time as a truther?


I wouldn't say that I was a real truther because while I didn't fully believe in the "rough official version I knew of" any longer after watching Loose Change and other conspiracy stuff, I also didn't take the Conspiracy Theories as face value. Simple research concerning the facts, logic and Mark's Loose Change Guide was quite helpful until I found the JREF-Forum, which also had a lot of people with reasonable/logical answers to my very specific questions.
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Old 18th December 2008, 11:09 AM   #30
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A) Watching some video like In Plane Site. They provided data, I found it comprelling and saw no reason to disagree.

b) Someone showed me data that proved beyond doubt that the information provided in the video was in fact lies. For example, video says there was no plane debris, shows pictures that show no plane debris. I comes to conclusion there was no plane debris since there was none in any of the pictures there. In discussion, someone provides 100s of pictures of plane debris, comparison charts that compare the debris to the parts used in the plane, etc. Thus proving the original claim 100% wrong.

c) I don't consider it wasted time. In the search for truth we can't be expected to get the right answers the first time. For me it was simply a rational conclusion based on an unknown lack of complete data. Once the missing data was provided, the conclusion changed. What DOES scare me are the people who are given this missing data and continue to withhold a belief that could not possibly be correct.
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Old 19th December 2008, 04:31 AM   #31
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Incredible stories. Thanks for sharing them. And Dan + Hourglassmemory, welcome back from the dark side! Your examples show, that people with the deepest conspiracy beliefs still have hope of changing their course

I wrote a thread about this topic: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=131026

I wrote it before Dan's post, after reading these latest contributions I might make a couple of additions. Thanks a million.
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Old 19th December 2008, 11:33 PM   #32
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a) How did you once become a truther?

9-11-2001, I was working in NYC. Mngmt had pulled out a few TVs so we could watch the news. A co-worker muttered to me: "I smell a rat. Something about this just doesn't add up", and I agreed with them, although I honestly had no idea why.

Fast forward: when I was about 22, I had gone back to school to get my B.S., while simultaneously launching a start-up company. After 2-3 years of a 20 hour / 6-day-per-week work/school schedule, I started to burn out. One night, after smoking some pot to relax, I was surfing the web and came across an Alex Jones video. Before this I was a big George Carlin fan, and I wrongly assumed Jones was coming from the same anti-establishment pov as Carlin, which made me a lot more receptive to his message.

The combo of weed + lack of sleep + work overload + seeds of doubt planted years before created a short-circuit in my brain. It was an epiphany, and I took the "inside job" bait hook, line and sinker.

b) What convinced you back from truther to non-truther?

Unlike my "epiphany moment" on the way to crazyville, the trip back was much slower, and much more deliberate.

It began as I noticed a shocking lack of consistency among the truth movement. Everyone had their own pet theory (who did it, how they did it), and argued bitterly about this. Some theories (i.e. remote-controlled planes) were asinine, but others remained rather reasonable to me.

For example: the my pet goat footage from Michael Moore's documentary still gives me chills. (In this clip, Bill Maher explains more or less what I was thinking when I first saw it).

And then, I reexamined this footage with a cliche in mind:

Never attribute to malice that which can be attributed to incompetence.

Slowly but surely I researched and debunked specific claims. For example: jet fuel does not burn hot enough to melt steel, however, steel warps long before it gets hot enough to melt. When I began placing the facts into context, the claims of "inside job" were far less convincing.

c) What are your thoughts nowadays about your time as a truther?

Today when asked I say that: "9-11 was the JFK assassination of my generation". By this I mean: I remain somewhat agnostic about it, but have yet to see actual proof of any conspiracy. It is possible that multiple gunmen shot JFK; it is possible that some explosives were planted in the Twin Towers; it is possible there is a God- but I have no proof, and these theories seem less plausible to me the more I study them.

At the same time- never say never. For example: once upon a time, the giant squid was considered folklore; an urban legend passed on by drunk sailors. However, it was eventually shown to be real- one day, one of these monsters washed up on shore, and the debate was over. For all I know, a UFO will crash into the White House someday, Bigfoot will be found in a bear trap, and Dick Cheney will make a deathbed confession.

Do I expect this will happen? No. I maintain it is a remote possibility- just like it is possible I will win the lottery, despite it being extremely unlikely.

All said, I am grateful for my experience. It allowed me to strengthen my critical thinking skills, and expose myself to some legitimate political issues. It forced me to reevaluate the quality of our media, and to better understand the nuances of the current political climate.

Like my signature says: I remain a conspiracy theorist to this day. For example: I believe that several competing oligarchies have undue influence in the modern world. However, this is not to say I believe this to be an illuminati/Zionist/alien lizard plot. Most importantly: I now understand the threshold of evidence required to prove my case. Eg: I cannot prove that George Bush is an alien lizard, but I can demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that people who attend Ivy League schools tend to network with one another, and cooperate on various projects (just like I once worked with several classmates when launching my business).

EDIT: Just read your "5 steps" article, and I think it is absolutely fantastic. In my "epiphany moment" I made it to step 3, got right to the edge of step 4, and then returned to step 2. I have been stuck in step 2 ever since (I would argue step 2 is where all skeptics belong).

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Old 20th December 2008, 12:10 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Hourglassmemory View Post
<snippity snip>

I hope this reply is worth anything.
Although I had nothing to do with the debunking of 9/11 fantasies on this forum early on like Gravy and others, it made my day to see that there are people like you who can be converted by seeing the rational arguments seen here. I wonder how many people were convinced by the" OCT" and then forever converted only after joining the twoofer forums. I would be willing to bet my life vs. a ham sandwich that the answer is zero.
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Old 20th December 2008, 12:40 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
I simply asked logical questions that contradicted some of the conspiracy claims and demanded answers at the Loose Change Forum. So I got banned for that - which really annoyed me and I signed up again asking why they banned me for bringing up evidence against the fake Osama video, which got me banned again. All in all I got banned a hundred times or so.
This is probably not an exaggeration. Oliver, all by himself, got most of Germany banned from LCF (they got so pissed that they IP range-banned him). Thinking about that still brings a smile to my face.

A beautiful piece of work, Oliver. You should be proud. I hope the NWO put a nice token of their appreciation in your pay envelope.
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Old 20th December 2008, 02:59 AM   #35
Orphia Nay
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Great thread.

Thanks, ref, and thanks everyone who has replied.

I was wondering how you all feel about people who think truthers are idiots, and who say so. I'm wondering if I should tone down some of my comments.

I liked johnnyclueless' post:

Quote:
In the search for truth we can't be expected to get the right answers the first time. For me it was simply a rational conclusion based on an unknown lack of complete data. Once the missing data was provided, the conclusion changed. What DOES scare me are the people who are given this missing data and continue to withhold a belief that could not possibly be correct.
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Old 20th December 2008, 03:20 AM   #36
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The only thing I ever thought in the way of 'trutherism' was the fate of Flight 93. Until more information was released I had considered strongly that it was shot down. It seemed logical at the time. It was the last of the hijacked airplanes that day and I truly believed that there was a possibility that it was intercepted.

I don't feel at all embarrassed about considering that. There are probably a few non-'truthers' even today who think Flight 93 actually was shot down.
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Old 20th December 2008, 04:36 AM   #37
DaN K. StAnLeY
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Quote:
I was wondering how you all feel about people who think truthers are idiots, and who say so. I'm wondering if I should tone down some of my comments.
I think most "hardcore" truthers are a little on the unstable side. The ones who continue to ignore evidence and believe outlandish theories always seem like they could also be scientologists if 9/11 truth wasn't around. In my experience, laziness and being new to the internet at the time were both huge factors in my lapse in judgement. Once I finally found some good evidence (like the 9/11 commission report online) and saw a couple videos ( like SLC) I was whipped back to reality and mad as hell. All of the debunking stuff I have read all makes sense to me and is a sound explaination for the events of 9/11. If you continue to ignore solid evidence just so you can make a niche for yourself in CT radio shows, then I think you are an idiot. It's all about finding the debunking websites and not being too lazy to read the 9/11 commission report or at least the NIST FAQ's page.

I don't think ALL truthers are idiots. I just think most of them haven't heard of JREF yet,LOL!!
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Old 20th December 2008, 09:18 AM   #38
zaphod2016
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Originally Posted by orphia nay View Post
I was wondering how you all feel about people who think truthers are idiots, and who say so. I'm wondering if I should tone down some of my comments.
Some truthers are idiots, some are brilliant, yet misguided. The same could be said of skeptics, or any other group.

As far as your question goes: what is your goal?

If your goal is to help truthers overcome their misconceptions, I'd argue you'll get more flies with honey than with vinegar.

If your goal is to amuse yourself and your fellow skeptics, flame on- just don't expect to change any opinions.

Off topic: where is your avatar from? It looks eerily familiar to me, but I can't place it.
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Old 20th December 2008, 11:56 AM   #39
chillzero
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Originally Posted by zaphod2016 View Post
Off topic: where is your avatar from? It looks eerily familiar to me, but I can't place it.
Think the following to yourself:

Noo ne noo ne noo noo noo ne noo (*sound of squeaky wheels*)
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Old 20th December 2008, 11:56 AM   #40
Bobert
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SEVERAL of you have posted and it has led me to believe that you are not Government Loyalists.
I was under the impression that EVERYONE who posts in the CT forum is a GLTM!
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