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Old 24th December 2008, 02:11 PM   #121
PhantomWolf
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Originally Posted by Seymour Butz View Post
So what are they then? Inexperienced with the subject matter?

And so, those that fell for the junk on LC ?

Also, these claims of the NWO isn't new either. There's been crazy talk about the UN taking over the US, etc since the 70's. And I've been through that and have seen the same arguments before. And so, I have experience with it, and wasn't swayed by the same sounding arguments.
I tend to use the word "Ignorant." I know that some people see negative conatations with the word, but in reality everyone is ignorant about something be it brain surgery, space flight, italian cooking, opera, the complete works of Dickens, or structural mechanics and engineering. Being ignorant is not a bad thing by itself, but it does allow people who peddle conspriacies to play the "expert" card and drag you down the garden path. We see it a lot on the Apollo Hoax crowd, they often claim to have studied the Apollo Records for 30 years. I have studied it for about 10 and I can gurantee I know more about it that many that claim to have studied it since it happened, but becuase they do know a little, and they do know more than most, they can appear to be experts to the ignorant. The issue comes to when those that are ignorant have the choice to educate themselves on the topic. Looking at those that used to believe and now don't, and those that still believe the split is clear. Those that still believe have decided that they aren't interested in furthering their understanding, in fact most have gotten so much to the point of "I know it all" they ignore or invalidate any further information that disputes what they have already been told. This is willful ignorance. Those that used to believe but now don't choose to over come their ignorance on the topic and looked further, found the material that disputed what they were told, and weighed the evidence on both sides. It was their willingness to learn that opened them to the truth and made them true truther seekers, and finders.
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Old 4th January 2009, 11:08 PM   #122
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Hey everyone! I've been trolling for a little while, but I thought this would be a good thread for my first post. There was a chapter in my life where I would have considered myself a twoofer.

How I became a truther: I remember seeing the original Loose Change, and I remember considering it a complete lump of garbage. I was maybe 15 or 16 at the time, however I thought it was such a low quality piece in terms of production, research, content, that I dismissed it quickly and never gave 9/11 truth much consideration.

Fast forward to July 2008 or so, I was in and out of a few spells of clinical depression. Lots of time feeling lonely and isolated, and in that time I hung out online a lot. Opie and Anthony were getting boring, and I didn't really like listening to music constantly. This led me to discover Alex Jones, and this was simply because his show was on the top of the shoutcast list.

It was very seductive to hear about this counter-culture, fighting the evil bankers and oligarchs who control society from the shadows. Feeling like the world as I knew it was a farce was very motivating, and that led me to spend a few hours a day either listening to Jones, watching his or other related documentaries, or "researching" (googling) sites that further solidified my confirmation bias.

Why I changed my mind: After a few months of constant exposure to these oh so liberating conspiracy theories, I just started to feel dirty. Mostly because of the content of the Alex Jones show. It was cool thinking the government was something other than it seemed, however for four hours a day, Jones would go on and on about things I couldn't help but think of as completely absurd.

Anyone who has heard his show probably knows he thinks Ron Paul is some sort of demigod, that 1984 is becoming reality, and that the U.S. Government is a ring of Luciferian pedophiles playing to the interests of the Tri-Laterals, Bilderbergers, Bohemians, etc. This inspired me to do real research which led me to countless independent researchers with material that obliterated most of my beliefs acquired from Jones, including Gravy's excellent work which led me here.

Reflections from today: Well, I never really had the chutzpah to promote these beliefs in public, but I do remember thinking negatively about "sheeple" who bought in to the whole system of society. I don't blame myself because the movement is founded on false claims and misrepresentations and it survives by stigmatizing the "disinformation agents" who provide unbiased looks at the evidence.

Apart from the time I gave hearing their messages, the only thing I really gave to the movement (however indirectly) was the money I spent on an Immortal Technique t-shirt and on that crappy Ron Paul book. Best of luck with your writing, ref, and hopefully this was somewhat helpful.
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Old 5th January 2009, 11:21 PM   #123
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a)
Actually, the first time a friend posted a link on a forum to loose change my immediate reaction was “if this is another one of those movies that blames 9/11 on Bush I'm going to tear it a new one.” I was 17, and would have voted for Bush in 2004 had I been old enough. I was certain that I knew everything about the world and could spout the republican party line on pretty much any issue. Upon Viewing Loose Change though, something changed. All that time I had defended republicans and Bush in my “liberal” part of the country, yet at the same time I was harboring feelings of dishonesty. Loose Change was the video, as sad as it may sound, that really got me to think about my political opinions, and about what I actually knew about the world. As I began to read more on 9/11 and on political issues in general, I began to see that I had been misrepresenting facts and dishonestly making claims. It wasn't necessarily the content of Loose Change that caused me to change, but it did alert me to new ideas and challenges to what I had believed. This process led to the deconstruction of my political beliefs, and it only so happened to coincide with my encounter with 9/11 Truth.
I began to read up on democrats, greens, socialists and libertarians, attempting to find some group I could identify with, yet my ideas never fully fit in with any of them. 9/11 truth, on the other hand, didn't have a party line, a set of core beliefs or any one particular leader. 9/11 Truth, as far as I was concerned, stressed the ideas of individual thought, “evidenced” claims and freedom like no other political group. It felt truly American. In my experiences with local 9/11 truth groups, people earned respect based on how much they knew about the subject and by how much they were willing to act. I encountered many intelligent people, including lawyers, college professors and talented authors, all united by 9/11 truth. Of course I recognize now, as many of you will as you read this, that this environment exists in many other political groups, but at the time I thought these were characteristics solely of the 9/11 truth movement.

b)
I found my way out of the truth movement through more and deeper research. I was encouraged by many of the posts and links on this forum and by websites such as 911myths to reconsider my new beliefs and to track down the origins of the claims. As a physics and political science double major I developed many necessary skills to logically address the arguments of the 9/11 Truth movement and weigh them against their debunking arguments. In the end I was forced to admit to myself that I was wrong, and had to move on.

c)
In retrospect, I'm not embarrassed or upset by my encounter with the 9/11 Truth movement. It was a time of my life where I learned first hand the importance of thinking logically and rationally, and never taking anyones word for something, whether they be David Ray Griffin or President Bush. I think most people go through a similar experience sooner or later. For a time I considered the media to be NWO controlled, but hey, I still know many republicans who hate the “liberal media,” many democrats who think the media has a republican bias and socialists who think it's a bourgeois enterprise. Likewise, I think no less of someone compelled by misconstrued evidence presented by “experts” on 9/11 than I do of those who were convinced by much of the evidence leading up to the Iraq war. We all have our biases and most of what we read or view is biased, but what I've learned is that we can be better and happier people if we view the world logically and rationally and try to find out what is true, not what we want to be true.
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Old 6th January 2009, 03:55 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by grenerd View Post
a)
Actually, ...
...
Evidence?

Last edited by Brainache; 6th January 2009 at 03:58 AM.
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Old 6th January 2009, 04:06 AM   #125
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Thanks thought_fugitive and grenerd for registering and posting your stories

This thread really has exceeded the expectations, thanks to all the contributors.
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Old 25th August 2009, 01:33 AM   #126
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a) How did you once become a truther?

Had troubles with the Collapse of the towers, they didnt look like what i expected them to look like (as if i ever saw such a collapse before ) then started debating with friends, and searched the web and came across the Truth movement. And propably read and watched every single theory out there. the more i red and watched, the more my suspicions got enforced and the more time i pendt with 9/11 the less i criticaly thought.


b) What convinced you back from truther to non-truther?
mainly Gregory Urich and Dr. Greening convinced me about the collapse. partially also JREFers like Mackay and Newton bits.

c) What are your thoughts nowadays about your time as a truther? insane
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Old 25th August 2009, 03:17 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
a) How did you once become a truther?

Had troubles with the Collapse of the towers, they didnt look like what i expected them to look like (as if i ever saw such a collapse before ) then started debating with friends, and searched the web and came across the Truth movement. And propably read and watched every single theory out there. the more i red and watched, the more my suspicions got enforced and the more time i pendt with 9/11 the less i criticaly thought.


b) What convinced you back from truther to non-truther?
mainly Gregory Urich and Dr. Greening convinced me about the collapse. partially also JREFers like Mackay and Newton bits.

c) What are your thoughts nowadays about your time as a truther? insane
Many thanks for your reply, DC.

I've quoted your post in the General Skepticism & Paranormal Forum, because it seems noteworthy too.

Originally Posted by DC View Post
well i know most will laugh now, but actually before 9/11 i was already a sceptic light.

it was more like hanging out on conspiracy theory fora helped me loosing my sceptical skills. i got convinced of stuff i would normaly not get confinced of without evidence. I stopped listening to "the other side" and it turned almost in a sort cult. when i realized it i started posting here on JREF and faced the challange of people demanding evidence or atleast a sound theory.
But in the case of 9/11 it was actually other truthers (Gregory Urich and Dr, Greenings) that helped opening my eyes again.

by the time i arived on JREF the debunkers gave already up on beeing nice and polite. I dont really blame them, i can understand it, but it wasnt helpfull for me.

But in the case of other woo, like Homeopathy, wonderhealings, psychics mindreading and Bigfoot, it is a great forum. Mayn many well educated and literate people debating mostly on a high level that do provide evidence and good sources.

sometimes one can get the impression the scpetics here all think alike.
but reaing a few posts in the Politics sections debunks that.

i would say, sceptics can indeed convince openminded people.
but Naysayers claiming to be sceptics cannot convince openminded people
sceptics cannot convince closeminded people claiming to be openminded.
I'm glad Mr Mackey and Newtons Bit got a mention, and am glad to see the forum helped you find truth in other matters.

Are you embarrased about defending Da Twoof in the CT forum for so long?

You shouldn't be too much. It takes as long as it takes.
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Old 25th August 2009, 03:23 AM   #128
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Oh, I didn't know Dictator Cheney had also abandoned the CT's.

Nice, welcome DC!
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Old 25th August 2009, 03:59 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by orphia nay View Post
Many thanks for your reply, DC.

I've quoted your post in the General Skepticism & Paranormal Forum, because it seems noteworthy too.



I'm glad Mr Mackey and Newtons Bit got a mention, and am glad to see the forum helped you find truth in other matters.

Are you embarrased about defending Da Twoof in the CT forum for so long?

You shouldn't be too much. It takes as long as it takes.
well sort of yes. on the other hand, i was convinced something is wrong and thus i had to inform you people, you seem to not have know it.
well i didnt know then i was wrong
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Old 25th August 2009, 04:12 AM   #130
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DC, I picked up a while ago that your views had changed, and I've noticed how long it takes to lose a reputation - I hope everybody's reading now.

I have one question specifically for you, since you've seen every side now: How did it feel to believe that the US Government was capable of mass murder of its own people? Frightening, empowering, something else? It's something I've only briefly considered, and I'd be interested to know how your reaction differed from mine.

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Old 25th August 2009, 04:23 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
DC, I picked up a while ago that your views had changed, and I've noticed how long it takes to lose a reputation - I hope everybody's reading now.

I have one question specifically for you, since you've seen every side now: How did it feel to believe that the US Government was capable of mass murder of its own people? Frightening, empowering, something else? It's something I've only briefly considered, and I'd be interested to know how your reaction differed from mine.

Dave
frightening.

alot people claimed I belive it simply because it is less scary than a bunch of Terrorists. Thats not the case, i find Terrorists alot less frightening than a Government turning against its own people.
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Old 25th August 2009, 11:44 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Evidence?
Seriously? Just to be sure before you render me speechless. The guy is explaining his journey and you are asking for evidence? Did you actually read the post?
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Old 25th August 2009, 12:14 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by releaseeabode View Post
Seriously? Just to be sure before you render me speechless. The guy is explaining his journey and you are asking for evidence? Did you actually read the post?
There's this thing called a sense of humour, releaseeabode. You should try one, they're quite the fashion these days.

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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 25th August 2009, 12:21 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
There's this thing called a sense of humour, releaseeabode. You should try one, they're quite the fashion these days.

Dave


Or, failing that, he should learn to note the use of smilies. They can be quite the useful hint.
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Old 25th August 2009, 12:22 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
well sort of yes. on the other hand, i was convinced something is wrong and thus i had to inform you people, you seem to not have know it.
well i didnt know then i was wrong
Trying to save us from being wrong about 911; kind of naive to think you had ultimate knowledge. But thanks for the warning, it takes guts to say what you believe while being told otherwise. Thanks for taking the time to try and inform others about what you believed was true.

As for warning us about 911 using delusions from other people without checking them out is not so great.

I have found, I believe and have seen, people like you who have figured out a lesson the hard way, worked your way up, are the best leaders and experts in the field. You did the hard work, got dirty in the pit of ignorance and built your own means of escape while others fell back in, or are hiding their original failure.

I learned things about the WTC while posting to your old 911 nonsense. I figured you had the ability to understand 911 issues. You could correct minor errors in some of the smallest details but still insisted on the delusions being true. To move from the world of delusions to reality is a greater step than I have made warning you 911 truth was a lie.
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Old 25th August 2009, 01:39 PM   #136
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a) How did you once become a truther?
On 9/11 for a brief moment I thought to myself, "I wonder how long for conspiracy theories to surface." And even though it would be six more years until I came across conspiracy sites, I knew they were around pretty much from the very beginning. It doesn't take a genius to know that 9/11 was going to generate conspiracy claims regardless of the official story. It simply doensn't matter. Period!!! Anyways, in June of 2007 I came across 911 Research and thought to myself, "WOW!" So thats when I started reading all kinds of sites like rense, 911 review, what really happened, etcc... and thought about all the questions they were asking and claims they were making. But even then I didn't become a truther. I was never 100% convinced because I thought to myself, "If all this is true then why is Bush still in office? I mean in a country in which presidents and many government people have been impeached, tried, and convicted of far lesser crimes." I knew they had to be answers to many if not all of their questions. Otherwise why is Bush getting away with the biggest crime of the century? So that is when I came across Loose Change and found it even more overwhelming. But even then I wasn't 100% convinced. So in November of 2008 I came across screw loose change and other debunking sites and the rest is history.

b) What convinced you back from truther to non-truther? I was reading all the debunking sites especially 911 myths, which is the best of all debunking sites. And I came across some things that I didn't recall in some sites and found the answers to many questions conspiracy theorists were asking. the answere is there if you bother to look for it.

c) What are your thoughts nowadays about your time as a truther? What mistakes you made back then? Were you 100% convinced, agressively promoting the truth? Whatever comes to your mind.
I was never a truther 100% but I did find most of their stuff extremely overwhelming until I got alot of answers to my questions (mainly because of the conspiracy sites) and thought that the conspiracy questions do have answers. The difference is that conspiracy theorists never look for them. They look for unanswered questions, errors, contradictions, and coincidences. And once they find them they go, "uh huh!" And spread it and make wild accusastions when they find something that looks suspicious. I am 100% convinced that 9/11 was not an inside job. Like all the conspiracy theories, the 9/11 claims are based on nothing more but pure speculation. Period!!!
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Old 25th August 2009, 01:51 PM   #137
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I already posted this in a different thread, but thought I'd paste it in the thread that's most relevant

a)How did you once become a truther? I am not looking for answers, like "watching Loose Change". If possible, I'd like you to write in a bit more detailed manner, like "I watched Loose Change, and started surfing the internet. All I could find were more truther sites, which further reinforced my truther status... etc" or something like that.

It all started when I met Amanda…A girl I fell madly in love with. She was passionate about politics and helped to work on the Gore 2000 campaign. She showed me Terrorstorm (which was the hype that came before Loose Change from none other than Alex Jones. I was impressed with all of the news articles and seemingly reliable sources from which he gathered his information. Combining that with his charisma and high energy, I bought it…Hook, line and sinker. I investigated for a while and sort of fell off. But when Loose Change came out, It seemed to me that they had pretty solid evidence for the Inside Job case….And of course, the fancy editing and catchy music just woo’d me right back in.
I can almost remember the moment I went from curious party to full fledged truther…I was at work (where our internet restrictions we’re nonexistent) and it was a slow day. I decided to watch AJ’s Endgame. Afterwards. I remember stepping outside for a smoke break and seeing all of the buildings in Downtown Denver resemble prison walls, closing me in. I saw people shuffling to and from work and felt as if they we’re all willing slaves, bending to the will of their “corporate masters” and then I noticed that I was one of them…It scared the hell out of me. (even though I worked for a “corporate master”, kind enough to let me watch videos online at work, gave me pretty decent pay and I had NO right to really complain)
I started helping We Are Change hand out DVD’s, spreading the word to my friends and spreading the “documentaries” like a virus. I influenced a lot of people in my circle of friends. In retrospect, it was a pretty effective and fast brainwashing I went through. It’s amazing how powerful Woo can be sometimes.


b) What convinced you back from truther to non-truther? Once again, I hope you do not respond something like "truthers are dumb", but a bit more specific.

Once I saw Zeitgeist Addendum I thought I REALLY had it all figured out and tried to start a local Z:Movement chapter. It was then I thought I was equipped mentally to take on the skeptics, whom I thought would love the idea of the Zeitgeist Movement (a “scientific method” pseudo science based, godless society? What’s more to love? Right? WRONG!!!)
So I took to JREF with all that I had learned and jumped into the skeptics Zeitgeist forums. I got pwned with questions I couldn’t even begin to answer and when I looked up answers to those questions, it was then I realized that it was all a silly utopian fantasy, sprinkled with pseudo skepticism and a Technocratic, communist-like agenda disguising itself as peace….
Furthermore, I had watched Screw Loose Change: The Not FREAKIN’ Again Edition a year prior and was pretty shocked at what I had seen. But still wrapped up in 9/11 denial, I didn’t take it seriously enough (not to mention Loose Change Final Cut came out the very day I watched Screw Loose Change)
When I noticed that the skeptics didn’t do a final cut version of SLC and I saw various other convincing clips from the LC crew, I fell right back into the woo….I was fortunate enough to have skeptics present me with evidence about 9/11 That I’d never even heard of (not even in SLC) and I was speechless. I felt like I knew absolutely nothing as the truth was slapping me hard in the face.
I came to terms with the fact that I was (IN REALITY) Supporting a sort of soft hate group cult. I finally came to the realization that I needed to atone (so to speak, I’m an atheist by the way, but just making a point) So I used the same My Space page that I had used forever, to spread malicious lies and to attack the government…to instead inform all of my Truther friends of what they we’re really a part of. My screen name went from Domestic Errorism to “Woo”gasm Recovery Unit overnight and now…I’m a changed man.

c) What are your thoughts nowadays about your time as a truther? What mistakes you made back then? Were you 100% convinced, agressively promoting the truth? Whatever comes to your mind.

When I look back, it’s really hard to even imagine how far gone I was…I was reading everything I could on INFOWARS and trying to take it with a grain of salt, but I just couldn’t help but pay attention to it. I was bombarded with so much info that I never had enough time to really look into anything. I definitely regret some of the things I said in the past…I was aggressively promoting the “twoof” and now I’m aggressively promoting the TRUTH. I am even considering burning copies of screw loose change to hand out across the street from where We Are Change hands out their propaganda on the 11th of every month (with Gravy’s permission of course)
Now, I feel not only liberated, but happy again. I no longer feel miserable, powerless, enslaved, paranoid or angry anymore.

I feel normal again. Like…everything is out of my control, but it’s ALSO out of everyone else’s control, including the fabled “Elite.” Now that I feel this way, I feel not only empowered (I know it's ironic but stay with me) but wiser because of it.

Empowered to know that I have just as many opportunities (within reason) as anyone else...Wiser because I was willing to admit to myself that I knew nothing and should probably just shut up, sit down and learn something.
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Old 25th August 2009, 03:16 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by releaseeabode View Post
Seriously? Just to be sure before you render me speechless. The guy is explaining his journey and you are asking for evidence? Did you actually read the post?
You just tossed fruit at the guy. Note how he already ducked. This is a sign of fun and merriment. Please observe. also for me:
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Old 25th August 2009, 03:25 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Sunray Breaker View Post
It all started when I met Amanda…
well this isn't going to tell us anything about how Do-Over Dylan got started.

Excellent excellent post and story. Insights galore, and points I can personally sympathize with. No time for my own story right now, and no need to flood the place. Ref, good thread - the right formula I guess for bringing us outta the woodwork.
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Old 25th August 2009, 10:15 PM   #140
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a) How did you once become a truther? I am not looking for answers, like "watching Loose Change". If possible, I'd like you to write in a bit more detailed manner, like "I watched Loose Change, and started surfing the internet. All I could find were more truther sites, which further reinforced my truther status... etc" or something like that.

I was in a very vulnerable situation dealing with a very ill wife and being hundreds of miles from friends/family. I Don't even remember how I happened upon Loose Change 2nd edition, but I fell for it hook line and sinker. I became involved in the internet truther community in between 100 mile commutes to spend time with my wife in the ICU and my menial part time job. I felt as though despite being powerless to help my wife, I did have the power to save my country from an infinite and somewhat vague evil force that was seeking to destroy it. At the time I was also using prescription pain medicine to counteract the constant anxiety associated with the mortally-ill-spouse situation. Anyone familiar with the euphoric effects of these drugs knows they often provide the user with plenty of easily misplaced enthusiasm.

b) What convinced you back from truther to non-truther? Once again, I hope you do not respond something like "truthers are dumb", but a bit more specific.

Well, conflicts between myself and skeptics sometimes left me feeling, well, wrong. This combined with the seemingly endless amount of ridiculous BS coming from the 'fringe' of the truth movement, and the realization that these 'fringe' elements with their complete inability to use logic were in fact the original founding cornerstones of the truth movement. The doubt was continually compounding, and eventually I severed myself from the 'truth movement'. It took quite a while, but I began to look at it all considering the possibility that I was wrong. I looked into a lot of skeptical rebuttals of the CT dogma without blinders or confirmation bias... and realized I had in fact been wrong.


c) What are your thoughts nowadays about your time as a truther? What mistakes you made back then? Were you 100% convinced, agressively promoting the truth? Whatever comes to your mind.

I look back a bit ashamed, but I know I had fallen into a trap when I was at my weakest. I was never 100% convinced, I do not think i ever had a solid opinion on the pentagon and i was convinced flight 93 had indeed crashed in Shanksville. Looking back I think towards the end i was doing a lot of backpedaling, perhaps an internal psychological damage control. That gray area between truther and skeptic was filled with me mostly trying to pretend it never happened. I had convinced literally a dozen people of I knew in real life to believe something that wasn't true. I remember the manager of a local Pizza Hut, a friend and co-worker, looking at me the day after i gave him the dvd to take home, asking, "Wow, what do we do? What do we do?" and not being able to answer him, or anyone else who came to me "the next day" who had fallen for it. Thankfully none of them, as far as I know, went on to tell others, or distribute dvds, or anything else I had been foolish enough to do.
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Old 25th August 2009, 11:18 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
You just tossed fruit at the guy. Note how he already ducked. This is a sign of fun and merriment. Please observe. also for me:
I can assure you I tossed fruit at no one.

That was grenerd's first post on here, and his/her last from the looks of it!!!!

Given the subject that grenerd was posting on and the depth of personal analysis he/she was going into it hardly seems appropriate to start demanding evidence and throwing fruit at the poster. I would like to understand from Brainache exactly what the motivation was so, stop apologising for him and let's hear it.
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Old 25th August 2009, 11:56 PM   #142
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Thanks to all the new contibutors, fascinating read!
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Old 26th August 2009, 12:32 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by releaseeabode View Post
I can assure you I tossed fruit at no one.

That was grenerd's first post on here, and his/her last from the looks of it!!!!

Given the subject that grenerd was posting on and the depth of personal analysis he/she was going into it hardly seems appropriate to start demanding evidence and throwing fruit at the poster. I would like to understand from Brainache exactly what the motivation was so, stop apologising for him and let's hear it.
He's not apologizing. He's patiently explaining the very simple meaning of a very simple post.

Future derail attempts will be reported.
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Old 26th August 2009, 12:50 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by ref View Post
Thanks to all the new contibutors, fascinating read!
I enjoyed it as well, some very open posts.

I do worry however, that some of the posters have substituted one cult for another and will just get drawn into another set of fundamentalist beliefs.
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Old 26th August 2009, 01:10 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by releaseeabode View Post
I enjoyed it as well, some very open posts.

I do worry however, that some of the posters have substituted one cult for another and will just get drawn into another set of fundamentalist beliefs.
Are you saying skepticism = fundamentalism?

Prop that one up with reasoning, if you would be so kind.

We keep seeing this "one cult for another" argument over and over again, and I'm not sure if it's just 'sour grapes' or that kind of understated derision cigarette smokers have for people who've just quit successfully.

Do you expect us to believe your agenda actually entails concern for the well-being of other people? I thought it was about getting "THE TRUTH" out there - as soon as you all can agree on what "THE TRUTH" actually consists of.

Collaborative efforts become more difficult when you look around you and realize that your movement is shrinking. It was already irrelevant, now it's circling the drain of extinction.

Neener neener.

How's about you direct your activism towards problems in this world that actually exist rather than trying to push a fabrication that doesn't?
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Old 26th August 2009, 01:19 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by releaseeabode View Post
I enjoyed it as well, some very open posts.

I do worry however, that some of the posters have substituted one cult for another and will just get drawn into another set of fundamentalist beliefs.
If you mean fundamentalist beliefs like demanding evidence grounded in mathematics, physics and reality before making wild claims, then that's a fundamentalist belief system I wish everyone had.
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Old 26th August 2009, 01:22 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts View Post
Are you saying skepticism = fundamentalism? ...
I edited out the unnecessary BS from your post and will answer your question directly.

No.

just as saying Atheism = Fundamentalism is not true either.
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Old 26th August 2009, 01:33 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by releaseeabode View Post
I enjoyed it as well, some very open posts.

I do worry however, that some of the posters have substituted one cult for another and will just get drawn into another set of fundamentalist beliefs.
I would not see how one could compare skepticism and 9/11 truth as opposed (or even simply separate) cults. 9/11 truth, christianity, anti-vaccination all IMO qualify as cults because amongst other traits, they have 2 very important ones: conclusion and delusion. Their foundation is a conclusion (vaccines cause autism, 9/11 was an inside job, etc) which is protected by delusion which prevents the cult members from critically considering evidence to the contrary of their founding conclusion. Skepticism however is not at all a conclusion, but rather a process, and furthermore this process relies heavily on the critical consideration of all the evidence. It would make one lousy cult.
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Old 26th August 2009, 01:37 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Temecula View Post
...Skepticism however is not at all a conclusion, but rather a process, and furthermore this process relies heavily on the critical consideration of all the evidence...
Exactly the point. Absolutes will breed cults and, judging by some of the behaviour patterns on here it already has.
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Old 26th August 2009, 01:38 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by EnJaySee View Post
If you mean fundamentalist beliefs like demanding evidence grounded in mathematics, physics and reality before making wild claims, then that's a fundamentalist belief system I wish everyone had.
Flippant nonsense. Ignored are you.
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Old 26th August 2009, 01:43 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by releaseeabode View Post
Exactly the point. Absolutes will breed cults and, judging by some of the behaviour patterns on here it already has.
How did you get that out of what he said?

The skeptical process almost never supports the absolute conclusion.

The 9/11 Truth Movement was never about a process. They had the answer already figured out, and then just worked backwards trying to prop up a flimsy conclusion with even flimsier scientific conclusions.

Your reading comprehension skills betray you.
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Old 26th August 2009, 01:45 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by JoeyDonuts View Post
How did you get that out of what he said?

The skeptical process almost never supports the absolute conclusion.

The 9/11 Truth Movement was never about a process. They had the answer already figured out, and then just worked backwards trying to prop up a flimsy conclusion with even flimsier scientific conclusions.

Your reading comprehension skills betray you.
Yeah, I guessed you were about making cheap points rather than being open and honest. After some of the great posts in here you have thrown it all back in their faces posting this nonsense.

Welcome to my ignore list.
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Old 26th August 2009, 01:50 AM   #153
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Please don't mangle the basic concept laid out in my post. There is no absolute conclusion in skepticism.
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Old 26th August 2009, 01:52 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Trying to save us from being wrong about 911; kind of naive to think you had ultimate knowledge. But thanks for the warning, it takes guts to say what you believe while being told otherwise. Thanks for taking the time to try and inform others about what you believed was true.

As for warning us about 911 using delusions from other people without checking them out is not so great.

I have found, I believe and have seen, people like you who have figured out a lesson the hard way, worked your way up, are the best leaders and experts in the field. You did the hard work, got dirty in the pit of ignorance and built your own means of escape while others fell back in, or are hiding their original failure.

I learned things about the WTC while posting to your old 911 nonsense. I figured you had the ability to understand 911 issues. You could correct minor errors in some of the smallest details but still insisted on the delusions being true. To move from the world of delusions to reality is a greater step than I have made warning you 911 truth was a lie.
thanks

but hey, when we get hit on 2012 by Planet X, dont blame me for not warning you, ok? j/k
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Old 26th August 2009, 01:57 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by releaseeabode
Yeah, I guessed you were about making cheap points rather than being open and honest. After some of the great posts in here you have thrown it all back in their faces posting this nonsense.

Welcome to my ignore list.
If you bothered to look around, you'd see that I'm one of the posters here who is sympathetic towards discourse with 9/11 truthers. The problem is, I don't feel the need to wear baby gloves when I do it. You started this off with an insulting and baseless crack at the forum community here, which like it or not, you're a part of as well. You come in with that kind of attitude, and someone is going to call you on it.

If you're going to ignore everyone that tells you that your conclusions are scientifically incorrect and your attitude sucks; then I'm going to be in good company.

I sincerely hope one day you look at yourself and your beliefs with the kind of objectivity and courage that Temecula has shown.
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Old 26th August 2009, 02:00 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by releaseeabode View Post
I can assure you I tossed fruit at no one.

That was grenerd's first post on here, and his/her last from the looks of it!!!!

Given the subject that grenerd was posting on and the depth of personal analysis he/she was going into it hardly seems appropriate to start demanding evidence and throwing fruit at the poster. I would like to understand from Brainache exactly what the motivation was so, stop apologising for him and let's hear it.
Lol. Sorry, internet humor so often fails, mate. It was a "bad joke" to simply ask for "evidence" of someone's experience, especially when it's detailed and earnest. Historically, bad jokes have been met with rotten fruit. A "comedian" will sometimes follow a "bad joke" with a pantomime duck, to avoid the fruit (often tomatoes). No one usually throws stuff anymore, but the gag persists. The smilie thus was to clarify that "evidence?' was a joke. A good-natured ribbing to the newbie.

I hope now that will clarify the situation.

disclaimer: I only presume that's what Brainache meant, and cannot be construed as speaking for him in any capacity.

Or was it more sinister? We'll never know for sure...
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Old 26th August 2009, 02:04 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Temecula View Post
Please don't mangle the basic concept laid out in my post. There is no absolute conclusion in skepticism.
It's funny how two people can be agreeing on a basic concept and one of those people still believes that they are not.

I am saying that absolutes breed fundamentalism, or am I imagining that I posted that?
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Old 26th August 2009, 02:06 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Lol. Sorry, internet humor so often fails, mate. It was a "bad joke" to simply ask for "evidence" of someone's experience, especially when it's detailed and earnest. Historically, bad jokes have been met with rotten fruit. A "comedian" will sometimes follow a "bad joke" with a pantomime duck, to avoid the fruit (often tomatoes). No one usually throws stuff anymore, but the gag persists. The smilie thus was to clarify that "evidence?' was a joke. A good-natured ribbing to the newbie.

I hope now that will clarify the situation.

disclaimer: I only presume that's what Brainache meant, and cannot be construed as speaking for him in any capacity.

Or was it more sinister? We'll never know for sure...
OK, I get it. If that's what Brainache was doing then I withdraw my criticism except to say it was a bit hard on a newbie to throw that kind of humour out on a first post. It certainly went over my head.

Hopefully, Brainache can clarify when he gets the chance.

Thanks for taking the time to offer some clarification.

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Old 26th August 2009, 02:14 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by releaseeabode View Post
I am saying that absolutes breed fundamentalism, or am I imagining that I posted that?
You did post it. As a non-sequitur.

Temecula posted "Skepticism is a process."

You quoted that phrase and added on "Absolutes breed fundamentalism."

Where's the connecting reasoning between the two? If you are alleging that the members of this forum who do not believe that the events of 9/11 were orchestrated by the Bush Administration or some shadowy elite cabal are somehow jingoistic torch-brandishing fundamentalists in the same vein as suicide bombers and the Westboro Baptist Church, you'd better connect the two with some kind of statement or show yourself to be intellectually dishonest.

Let me say right now that if I'm misrepresenting anything you've said, point it out and I'll retract it if it's in error. Too many stupid arguments start over communication problems. If I've got you pegged wrong, I'd rather know that sooner than later.
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Old 26th August 2009, 02:20 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by releaseeabode View Post
OK, I get it. If that's what Brainache was doing then I withdraw my criticism except to say it was a bit hard on a newbie to throw that kind of humour out on a first post. It certainly went over my head.

Hopefully, Brainache can clarify when he gets the chance.

Thanks for taking the time to offer some clarification.
I recommend you take a breath, slow down, and observe patterns some more until you can be more or less sure of what's going on here. You can't even understand a basic joke (due to perhaps some filter?) and are here saying the forum is like a cult.

There is soooome sort of truth to something like that, a prevailing ethos, and sometimes it gets thicker than I'd like, but hey, that's a forum. Getting in a tizzy isn't going to help you any. Productively sticking on topic will.
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