Santa Claus

SOdhner · 4th December 2017, 07:01 PM

My skeptic parenting has paid off. My son has thought about the whole Santa thing and, based on the fact that I've told him magic isn't real, he has realized that there can't really be flying reindeer - and so Santa must have a jet pack.

Baby steps.

BobTheCoward · 4th December 2017, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by SOdhner

My skeptic parenting has paid off. My son has thought about the whole Santa thing and, based on the fact that I've told him magic isn't real, he has realized that there can't really be flying reindeer - and so Santa must have a jet pack.

Baby steps.

I'm so excited when my kid is older to tell her santa Claus has been real this whole time. That this human concept of giving without receiving is beautifully powerful and we manifest it as a loving person to help children see what is magical about it.

smartcooky · 5th December 2017, 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by SOdhner

My skeptic parenting has paid off. My son has thought about the whole Santa thing and, based on the fact that I've told him magic isn't real, he has realized that there can't really be flying reindeer - and so Santa must have a jet pack.

Baby steps.

What!!? Santa isn't real!!?

Devastated I am...devastated!!

Octavo · 5th December 2017, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

What!!? Santa isn't real!!?

Devastated I am...devastated!!

I thought you were smartcooky?

lionking · 5th December 2017, 02:24 AM

Not another annual "Santa is an evil influence on kids, let's ban this unskeptical custom" thread.

We did the Santa thing for many years for our seven kids and it hasn't harmed the skeptical and athiest bunch. We are doing the same with our grandkids.

Porpoise of Life · 5th December 2017, 02:39 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Not another annual "Santa is an evil influence on kids, let's ban this unskeptical custom" thread.

We did the Santa thing for many years for our seven kids and it hasn't harmed the skeptical and athiest bunch. We are doing the same with our grandkids.

Atheist, yeah right. With seven kids, you've got to be Catholic

Darat · 5th December 2017, 02:51 AM

Originally Posted by SOdhner

My skeptic parenting has paid off. My son has thought about the whole Santa thing and, based on the fact that I've told him magic isn't real, he has realized that there can't really be flying reindeer - and so Santa must have a jet pack.

Baby steps.

Well he has evidence that part of the story you've told him is true - he gets presents - so he knows that any theory about Santa Claus has to account for that. I'd say that's a big conceptual leap.

P. S. Now you can really screw him up, give him no presents on Christmas Day and tell him Santa Claus doesn't give presents to those that doubt him!

lionking · 5th December 2017, 02:53 AM

Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life

Atheist, yeah right. With seven kids, you've got to be Catholic

Indeed, combined with the fact that my middle name is Patrick, my surname is of bog Irish Galway derivation, I was an (unmolested) altar boy, my father was a Marist Brother for a brief period and uncles and aunts were priests and nuns.

Despite my athiest commitment I still attend religious weddings and funerals. And I love Christmas and it's associated rituals. Long live Santa.

Darat · 5th December 2017, 02:55 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Not another annual "Santa is an evil influence on kids, let's ban this unskeptical custom" thread.

We did the Santa thing for many years for our seven kids and it hasn't harmed the skeptical and athiest bunch. We are doing the same with our grandkids.

You didn't read the opening post did you? His parents are obviously telling him the story of Santa Claus but the kid is starting to think for himself and saying "something isn't quite right with this" and attempting to work it out for himself.

Isn't part of the joy of being a parent experiencing kids growing up and becoming their own person?

Foolmewunz · 5th December 2017, 03:01 AM

My kid (see avatar) decided to give up the game. He's pretty much an avowed atheist at nine and has been for a while. He confessed that he really figured it out about three years ago, but was playing along for the collection of loot.

It's pretty clear here when they're in school. Even the "international" (read Euro/American furriners or "farang") schools are majority Thai. Some are kids of Thai couples who have lived overseas, some just well-off Thais who want an international education for their kids, and most of 'em are from mixed western/Thai couples. BUT, still there are kids from the sub-continent and Thailand who make no reference to or celebrate Christmas. Christmas Day is not a holiday here, other than for the schools.

So he worked it out on his own when he had cousins arriving over the holiday period and none of them were reporting on what they got from Santa.

lionking · 5th December 2017, 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

You didn't read the opening post did you? His parents are obviously telling him the story of Santa Claus but the kid is starting to think for himself and saying "something isn't quite right with this" and attempting to work it out for himself.

Isn't part of the joy of being a parent experiencing kids growing up and becoming their own person?

I did read the OP. Me and my wife wanted to entrench the Santa ritual, and took pride in continuing it. Kids work it out themselves obviously, but in my experience they loved the ritual. "Lying" to them that Santa was real was not a bad thing in my view. I took more joy in the kids going along with the myth.

What pisses me off is that some hold that this is an unskepitical position to take. I know that this is not what the OP is doing, but it has been done in the past.

JJM 777 · 5th December 2017, 03:15 AM

I have never directly said to my kids that Santa Claus doesn't exist. Though we always bought all the presents when the kids were with us in the shop. So the inevitable happened last Christmas, as my 7-year-old son said with enthusiasm and intended humour: Let's wrap these in present paper -- and then we will pretend that Santa Claus brought them!

There was something profoundly hilarious in that moment.

Pixel42 · 5th December 2017, 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Not another annual "Santa is an evil influence on kids, let's ban this unskeptical custom" thread.

I don't think anyone is saying that, are they?

Personally I think the Santa Claus story is an excellent way of training kids to be sceptical. They work it out eventually, and can then apply the same reasoning process to other myths. I always say I stopped believing in god shortly after I stopped believing in Father Christmas, and for exactly the same reason.

P.J. Denyer · 5th December 2017, 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

What!!? Santa isn't real!!?

Devastated I am...devastated!!

I'm sorry for your distress. That information should OBVIOUSLY have been hidden in spoiler quotes. Perhaps the mods could also add a warning to the thread title that it contains disturbing information.

Foolmewunz · 5th December 2017, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

I don't think anyone is saying that, are they?

Personally I think the Santa Claus story is an excellent way of training kids to be sceptical. They work it out eventually, and can then apply the same reasoning process to other myths. I always say I stopped believing in god shortly after I stopped believing in Father Christmas, and for exactly the same reason.

Hilited: I take it you haven't been around for our semi-regular Why Do You Think It's Okay to Lie to Your Kids About Santa thread. Lionking and I have waded into that debacle a couple of times. It gets rather rancorous.

Armitage72 · 5th December 2017, 06:21 AM

It's only a matter of time before the idea of one man traveling around the world in a single night leads to the logical realization that Santa uses regional subcontractors. The real reason that different parts of the world call Santa by different names, depict him in different outfits, and have him accompanied by different assistants is that Santa uses a large number of local individuals to distribute gifts in his name while using variants of his image. Then there are also the associated gift-givers who choose not to use the Santa name and image, like Befana.

Darat · 5th December 2017, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by Armitage72

It's only a matter of time before the idea of one man traveling around the world in a single night leads to the logical realization that Santa uses regional subcontractors. The real reason that different parts of the world call Santa by different names, depict him in different outfits, and have him accompanied by different assistants is that Santa uses a large number of local individuals to distribute gifts in his name while using variants of his image. Then there are also the associated gift-givers who choose not to use the Santa name and image, like Befana.

And UPS!

SOdhner · 5th December 2017, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

What!!? Santa isn't real!!?

WHOA WHOA WHOA. Hang on. Nobody is saying that Santa isn't real. I just said that my son figured out that the reindeer can't fly. Man, you don't need to jump to conclusions like that.

Originally Posted by lionking

Not another annual "Santa is an evil influence on kids, let's ban this unskeptical custom" thread.

I hope not! I wasn't trying to start anything like that, I just thought it was a funny bit of skeptical thinking to share.

Originally Posted by Darat

Well he has evidence that part of the story you've told him is true - he gets presents - so he knows that any theory about Santa Claus has to account for that. I'd say that's a big conceptual leap.

Yeah, he's clearly thinking about it a lot. I think he's also trying to figure out the delivery method - does Santa have to go into each house? Can he, like, throw the presents?

Originally Posted by Darat

P. S. Now you can really screw him up, give him no presents on Christmas Day and tell him Santa Claus doesn't give presents to those that doubt him!

My wife might literally kill me.

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

He confessed that he really figured it out about three years ago, but was playing along for the collection of loot.

My realization about Santa was very much like my eventual switch to atheism. I questioned it and pretty quickly realized something was fishy, but I gave it another year before admitting it to myself (not for fear of not getting presents, just because I didn't quite feel ready to say I didn't believe in Santa).

I don't really understand how any kids don't already know - every Christmas special is all "Nobody believes in me!" "Everyone knows Santa is fake!" etc. and while obviously they're wrong in the world of the movie I still feel like that would start to put the idea in my head. Gosh, the kids in that movie make fun of the other kid because he believes in Santa. Is that... something I shouldn't believe in? Huh...

ddt · 5th December 2017, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

And UPS!

Uninterruptible Parcel Supply?

JesseCuster · 5th December 2017, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Not another annual "Santa is an evil influence on kids, let's ban this unskeptical custom" thread. :mad.

You're right, it's not 'another annual "Santa is an evil influence on kids, let's ban this unskeptical custom" thread'.

BobTheCoward · 5th December 2017, 07:42 AM

Is he old enough to use Wikipedia?

Myriad · 5th December 2017, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by SOdhner

My skeptic parenting has paid off. My son has thought about the whole Santa thing and, based on the fact that I've told him magic isn't real, he has realized that there can't really be flying reindeer - and so Santa must have a jet pack.

Baby steps.

A learning opportunity for the danger of overlooking alternative hypotheses.

Ask him: how can he be so sure it's not the reindeer that have the jet packs?

SOdhner · 5th December 2017, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Is he old enough to use Wikipedia?

Yeah, but he won't. I'm the one looking stuff up about this (namely, what age is normal for them to figure this out). He's ten, which is a little older than average but he's also doing home school so there's less outside influence.

Beerina · 5th December 2017, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by SOdhner

My skeptic parenting has paid off. My son has thought about the whole Santa thing and, based on the fact that I've told him magic isn't real, he has realized that there can't really be flying reindeer - and so Santa must have a jet pack.

Baby steps.

But...jet packs exist. They aren't very good, duration-wise, but they exist.

SOdhner · 5th December 2017, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

But...jet packs exist. They aren't very good, duration-wise, but they exist.

That's why I said 'baby steps'. His next realization will be that Santa, being an immortal with a large team of engineers, has actually perfected some sort of awesome futuristic transportation that makes our "jet packs" look like pathetic toys.

JohnG · 5th December 2017, 08:31 AM

That life-changing moment when you go from "Ho! Ho! Ho!" to "Oh?! Oh! Oh..."

BobTheCoward · 5th December 2017, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by SOdhner

Yeah, but he won't. I'm the one looking stuff up about this (namely, what age is normal for them to figure this out). He's ten, which is a little older than average but he's also doing home school so there's less outside influence.

Why won't he? I have a 2 year old so im asking to calibrate my own expectations.

SOdhner · 5th December 2017, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Why won't he? I have a 2 year old so im asking to calibrate my own expectations.

His specific personality. He won't research anything we don't force him to. He's smart, he thinks about stuff and how it works, he has a good head for strategy... but really he wants to be bouncing on the trampoline, kicking something over the fence, or playing video games. He'll ponder stuff, but he won't look it up.

EDIT: Note that we got him when he was four, and a decent amount of this was already baked in. Would he look stuff up more if we had had him since infancy? Maybe, maybe not. But if your 2yo is your biological kid the apple may fall closer to the tree. Or... not. Kids, man.

Spock Jenkins · 5th December 2017, 09:36 AM

Santa's middle name is "Amazon", and he drops gifts off on our front porch periodically throughout the holiday season. They end up under the tree "the night before Christmas".

My kids all play along. We leave letters from Santa, they leave cookies and milk for Santa. It's all in good fun. They drop hints that they know what's up, but the older ones have been good about not ruining the fun for their younger siblings.

Beerina · 5th December 2017, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by SOdhner

That's why I said 'baby steps'. His next realization will be that Santa, being an immortal with a large team of engineers, has actually perfected some sort of awesome futuristic transportation that makes our "jet packs" look like pathetic toys.

Well, the pieces are all there.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

paulhutch · 5th December 2017, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by SOdhner

My skeptic parenting has paid off. My son has thought about the whole Santa thing and, based on the fact that I've told him magic isn't real, he has realized that there can't really be flying reindeer - and so Santa must have a jet pack.

Baby steps.

At some point he'll likely appreciate this James Randi classic:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

ddt · 5th December 2017, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by paulhutch

At some point he'll likely appreciate this James Randi classic:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Do reindeer have free will?

The Don · 6th December 2017, 02:26 AM

Amazingly enough, just before Christmas, it's been found that a relic of Saint Nicholas is approximately the right age......

Quote:

A fragment of bone claimed to be from St Nicholas - the 4th-Century saintly inspiration for Father Christmas - has been radio carbon tested by the University of Oxford.

The test has found that the relic does date from the time of St Nicholas, who is believed to have died about 343AD.

While not providing proof that this is from the saint, it has been confirmed as authentically from that era.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-42239197

Porpoise of Life · 6th December 2017, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Amazingly enough, just before Christmas, it's been found that a relic of Saint Nicholas is approximately the right age......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-42239197

Quite timely, December 6th is st. Nicholas' Day!

Oystein · 6th December 2017, 07:03 AM

In Germany, children have to contend with three mythical gift-bringers: Nikolaus, Weihnachtsmann (literally: christmas-man; Father Christmas), and the Christkind (Christ child). I never grasped the latter when I was a child myself, I thought of the Christkind as a girl-angel - it never occurred to me that the baby boy Jesus is the christ child! The other two are tricky to be separated: Nikolaus of course has his own day, today, December 6th. But I always believed he made a return on Holy Night, I thought he and Weihnachtsmann are the same. Then, on Sunday, I accompanied a friend and her two children to the local christmas market, where a St. Nik - or Weihnachtmann? - was handing gift bags to children. My friend explained that she wants her kids to differentiate between St. Nikolaus, a bishop with mitra, white-and-gold gown and bishop's staff, and the Weihnachtsmann in red and white coat and fur with reindeer, who is a commercial, American invention by coca-cola. And I agreed with her. But yesterday, I remembered that Americans call the Weihnachtsmann "Santa Claus", with is none other than Saint Nicolas! They are the same after all!

I am glad I don't believe in any of the three, or else I would worry I might get a few extra days in limbo for thinking wrong about them!

Porpoise of Life · 6th December 2017, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by Oystein

In Germany, children have to contend with three mythical gift-bringers: Nikolaus, Weihnachtsmann (literally: christmas-man; Father Christmas), and the Christkind (Christ child). I never grasped the latter when I was a child myself, I thought of the Christkind as a girl-angel - it never occurred to me that the baby boy Jesus is the christ child! The other two are tricky to be separated: Nikolaus of course has his own day, today, December 6th. But I always believed he made a return on Holy Night, I thought he and Weihnachtsmann are the same. Then, on Sunday, I accompanied a friend and her two children to the local christmas market, where a St. Nik - or Weihnachtmann? - was handing gift bags to children. My friend explained that she wants her kids to differentiate between St. Nikolaus, a bishop with mitra, white-and-gold gown and bishop's staff, and the Weihnachtsmann in red and white coat and fur with reindeer, who is a commercial, American invention by coca-cola. And I agreed with her. But yesterday, I remembered that Americans call the Weihnachtsmann "Santa Claus", with is none other than Saint Nicolas! They are the same after all!

I am glad I don't believe in any of the three, or else I would worry I might get a few extra days in limbo for thinking wrong about them!

And both of them are actually Wotan!
(Well, according to the theory that the tradition of midwinter giftgiving by a whitebearded man who rides through the skies was a pagan tradition that couldn't be stamped out by the church, so they just adopted it.)

Darat · 7th December 2017, 02:01 PM

Nonsense, it was the Hogfather!

aleCcowaN · 7th December 2017, 03:40 PM

Santa IS real!

There's a lot of evidence: millions of presents and knick knacks bellow Xmas trees and in sockets, all appearing almost at the same time. Use Occam's razor: what is more reasonable? an amazingly nice person doing the same kind of good deed all around the world using the same modus operandi or a humongous bunch of heterogeneous people who wouldn't know each other but conspire to provide a false "Santa"? C'mon!

Besides, Santa is a giver and not a taker. It's the religion attached to Xmas the one that takes concrete things a gives just promises. Those faith mongers are the ones who are indubitably wrong.

Apology · 8th December 2017, 10:31 PM

Pssht, it's not important to convince your kids that Santa exists. For maximum control, you need to convince them that KRAMPUS exists.

I also used to leave my nephew a present from "Willy the One-eyed Elf" every year. He finally got the joke when he was about fifteen and I must say, the prank was well worth the wait.

Trebuchet · 9th December 2017, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Nonsense, it was the Hogfather!

Which I happen to be reading right now. Not one of my favorites, but any Pratchett is pretty good.

4th December 2017, 07:01 PM	#1
SOdhner Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,742	Santa Claus My skeptic parenting has paid off. My son has thought about the whole Santa thing and, based on the fact that I've told him magic isn't real, he has realized that there can't really be flying reindeer - and so Santa must have a jet pack. Baby steps.

5th December 2017, 01:31 AM	#3
smartcooky Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 9,155	Originally Posted by SOdhner My skeptic parenting has paid off. My son has thought about the whole Santa thing and, based on the fact that I've told him magic isn't real, he has realized that there can't really be flying reindeer - and so Santa must have a jet pack. Baby steps. What!!? Santa isn't real!!? Devastated I am...devastated!!
	__________________ _{As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. - Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920}

5th December 2017, 01:40 AM	#4
Octavo Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: South Africa Posts: 3,485	Originally Posted by smartcooky What!!? Santa isn't real!!? Devastated I am...devastated!! I thought you were smartcooky?
	__________________ This signature is intended to imitate people.

5th December 2017, 02:24 AM	#5
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 42,336	Not another annual "Santa is an evil influence on kids, let's ban this unskeptical custom" thread. We did the Santa thing for many years for our seven kids and it hasn't harmed the skeptical and athiest bunch. We are doing the same with our grandkids.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

5th December 2017, 02:51 AM	#7
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 83,373	Originally Posted by SOdhner My skeptic parenting has paid off. My son has thought about the whole Santa thing and, based on the fact that I've told him magic isn't real, he has realized that there can't really be flying reindeer - and so Santa must have a jet pack. Baby steps. Well he has evidence that part of the story you've told him is true - he gets presents - so he knows that any theory about Santa Claus has to account for that. I'd say that's a big conceptual leap. P. S. Now you can really screw him up, give him no presents on Christmas Day and tell him Santa Claus doesn't give presents to those that doubt him!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

4th December 2017, 09:20 PM	#2
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 14,076	Originally Posted by SOdhner My skeptic parenting has paid off. My son has thought about the whole Santa thing and, based on the fact that I've told him magic isn't real, he has realized that there can't really be flying reindeer - and so Santa must have a jet pack. Baby steps. I'm so excited when my kid is older to tell her santa Claus has been real this whole time. That this human concept of giving without receiving is beautifully powerful and we manifest it as a loving person to help children see what is magical about it.

5th December 2017, 02:39 AM	#6
Porpoise of Life Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 4,443	Originally Posted by lionking Not another annual "Santa is an evil influence on kids, let's ban this unskeptical custom" thread. We did the Santa thing for many years for our seven kids and it hasn't harmed the skeptical and athiest bunch. We are doing the same with our grandkids. Atheist, yeah right. With seven kids, you've got to be Catholic

5th December 2017, 02:53 AM	#8
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 42,336	Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life Atheist, yeah right. With seven kids, you've got to be Catholic Indeed, combined with the fact that my middle name is Patrick, my surname is of bog Irish Galway derivation, I was an (unmolested) altar boy, my father was a Marist Brother for a brief period and uncles and aunts were priests and nuns. Despite my athiest commitment I still attend religious weddings and funerals. And I love Christmas and it's associated rituals. Long live Santa.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

5th December 2017, 02:55 AM	#9
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 83,373	Originally Posted by lionking Not another annual "Santa is an evil influence on kids, let's ban this unskeptical custom" thread. We did the Santa thing for many years for our seven kids and it hasn't harmed the skeptical and athiest bunch. We are doing the same with our grandkids. You didn't read the opening post did you? His parents are obviously telling him the story of Santa Claus but the kid is starting to think for himself and saying "something isn't quite right with this" and attempting to work it out for himself. Isn't part of the joy of being a parent experiencing kids growing up and becoming their own person?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

5th December 2017, 03:01 AM	#10
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 38,948	My kid (see avatar) decided to give up the game. He's pretty much an avowed atheist at nine and has been for a while. He confessed that he really figured it out about three years ago, but was playing along for the collection of loot. It's pretty clear here when they're in school. Even the "international" (read Euro/American furriners or "farang") schools are majority Thai. Some are kids of Thai couples who have lived overseas, some just well-off Thais who want an international education for their kids, and most of 'em are from mixed western/Thai couples. BUT, still there are kids from the sub-continent and Thailand who make no reference to or celebrate Christmas. Christmas Day is not a holiday here, other than for the schools. So he worked it out on his own when he had cousins arriving over the holiday period and none of them were reporting on what they got from Santa.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

5th December 2017, 03:07 AM	#11
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 42,336	Originally Posted by Darat You didn't read the opening post did you? His parents are obviously telling him the story of Santa Claus but the kid is starting to think for himself and saying "something isn't quite right with this" and attempting to work it out for himself. Isn't part of the joy of being a parent experiencing kids growing up and becoming their own person? I did read the OP. Me and my wife wanted to entrench the Santa ritual, and took pride in continuing it. Kids work it out themselves obviously, but in my experience they loved the ritual. "Lying" to them that Santa was real was not a bad thing in my view. I took more joy in the kids going along with the myth. What pisses me off is that some hold that this is an unskepitical position to take. I know that this is not what the OP is doing, but it has been done in the past.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

5th December 2017, 03:15 AM	#12
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,060	I have never directly said to my kids that Santa Claus doesn't exist. Though we always bought all the presents when the kids were with us in the shop. So the inevitable happened last Christmas, as my 7-year-old son said with enthusiasm and intended humour: Let's wrap these in present paper -- and then we will pretend that Santa Claus brought them! There was something profoundly hilarious in that moment.
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,060

5th December 2017, 03:28 AM	#13
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 10,524	Originally Posted by lionking Not another annual "Santa is an evil influence on kids, let's ban this unskeptical custom" thread. I don't think anyone is saying that, are they? Personally I think the Santa Claus story is an excellent way of training kids to be sceptical. They work it out eventually, and can then apply the same reasoning process to other myths. I always say I stopped believing in god shortly after I stopped believing in Father Christmas, and for exactly the same reason.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

5th December 2017, 03:29 AM	#14
P.J. Denyer Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 4,413	Originally Posted by smartcooky What!!? Santa isn't real!!? Devastated I am...devastated!! I'm sorry for your distress. That information should OBVIOUSLY have been hidden in spoiler quotes. Perhaps the mods could also add a warning to the thread title that it contains disturbing information.
P.J. Denyer Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 4,413	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

5th December 2017, 04:33 AM	#15
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 38,948	Originally Posted by Pixel42 I don't think anyone is saying that, are they? Personally I think the Santa Claus story is an excellent way of training kids to be sceptical. They work it out eventually, and can then apply the same reasoning process to other myths. I always say I stopped believing in god shortly after I stopped believing in Father Christmas, and for exactly the same reason. Hilited: I take it you haven't been around for our semi-regular Why Do You Think It's Okay to Lie to Your Kids About Santa thread. Lionking and I have waded into that debacle a couple of times. It gets rather rancorous.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

5th December 2017, 06:21 AM	#16
Armitage72 Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 2,189	It's only a matter of time before the idea of one man traveling around the world in a single night leads to the logical realization that Santa uses regional subcontractors. The real reason that different parts of the world call Santa by different names, depict him in different outfits, and have him accompanied by different assistants is that Santa uses a large number of local individuals to distribute gifts in his name while using variants of his image. Then there are also the associated gift-givers who choose not to use the Santa name and image, like Befana.

5th December 2017, 06:28 AM	#17
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 83,373	Originally Posted by Armitage72 It's only a matter of time before the idea of one man traveling around the world in a single night leads to the logical realization that Santa uses regional subcontractors. The real reason that different parts of the world call Santa by different names, depict him in different outfits, and have him accompanied by different assistants is that Santa uses a large number of local individuals to distribute gifts in his name while using variants of his image. Then there are also the associated gift-givers who choose not to use the Santa name and image, like Befana. And UPS!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

5th December 2017, 06:52 AM	#18
SOdhner Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,742	Originally Posted by smartcooky What!!? Santa isn't real!!? WHOA WHOA WHOA. Hang on. Nobody is saying that Santa isn't real. I just said that my son figured out that the reindeer can't fly. Man, you don't need to jump to conclusions like that. Originally Posted by lionking Not another annual "Santa is an evil influence on kids, let's ban this unskeptical custom" thread. I hope not! I wasn't trying to start anything like that, I just thought it was a funny bit of skeptical thinking to share. Originally Posted by Darat Well he has evidence that part of the story you've told him is true - he gets presents - so he knows that any theory about Santa Claus has to account for that. I'd say that's a big conceptual leap. Yeah, he's clearly thinking about it a lot. I think he's also trying to figure out the delivery method - does Santa have to go into each house? Can he, like, throw the presents? Originally Posted by Darat P. S. Now you can really screw him up, give him no presents on Christmas Day and tell him Santa Claus doesn't give presents to those that doubt him! My wife might literally kill me. Originally Posted by Foolmewunz He confessed that he really figured it out about three years ago, but was playing along for the collection of loot. My realization about Santa was very much like my eventual switch to atheism. I questioned it and pretty quickly realized something was fishy, but I gave it another year before admitting it to myself (not for fear of not getting presents, just because I didn't quite feel ready to say I didn't believe in Santa). I don't really understand how any kids don't already know - every Christmas special is all "Nobody believes in me!" "Everyone knows Santa is fake!" etc. and while obviously they're wrong in the world of the movie I still feel like that would start to put the idea in my head. Gosh, the kids in that movie make fun of the other kid because he believes in Santa. Is that... something I shouldn't believe in? Huh...

5th December 2017, 06:53 AM	#19
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 19,576	Originally Posted by Darat And UPS! Uninterruptible Parcel Supply?
	__________________ "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen

5th December 2017, 07:29 AM	#20
JesseCuster Muse Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 829	Originally Posted by lionking Not another annual "Santa is an evil influence on kids, let's ban this unskeptical custom" thread. :mad. You're right, it's not 'another annual "Santa is an evil influence on kids, let's ban this unskeptical custom" thread'.
JesseCuster Muse Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 829

5th December 2017, 07:42 AM	#21
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 14,076	Is he old enough to use Wikipedia?

5th December 2017, 07:50 AM	#22
Myriad Hyperthetical TLA Winner Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: A pocket paradise between the sewage treatment plant and the railroad Posts: 14,045	Originally Posted by SOdhner My skeptic parenting has paid off. My son has thought about the whole Santa thing and, based on the fact that I've told him magic isn't real, he has realized that there can't really be flying reindeer - and so Santa must have a jet pack. Baby steps. A learning opportunity for the danger of overlooking alternative hypotheses. Ask him: how can he be so sure it's not the reindeer that have the jet packs?
	__________________ A zømbie once bit my sister...

5th December 2017, 07:52 AM	#23
SOdhner Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,742	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Is he old enough to use Wikipedia? Yeah, but he won't. I'm the one looking stuff up about this (namely, what age is normal for them to figure this out). He's ten, which is a little older than average but he's also doing home school so there's less outside influence.

5th December 2017, 08:14 AM	#24
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 29,262	Originally Posted by SOdhner My skeptic parenting has paid off. My son has thought about the whole Santa thing and, based on the fact that I've told him magic isn't real, he has realized that there can't really be flying reindeer - and so Santa must have a jet pack. Baby steps. But...jet packs exist. They aren't very good, duration-wise, but they exist.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

5th December 2017, 08:22 AM	#25
SOdhner Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,742	Originally Posted by Beerina But...jet packs exist. They aren't very good, duration-wise, but they exist. That's why I said 'baby steps'. His next realization will be that Santa, being an immortal with a large team of engineers, has actually perfected some sort of awesome futuristic transportation that makes our "jet packs" look like pathetic toys.

5th December 2017, 08:31 AM	#26
JohnG Pedantic Bore Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Abandon All Hope Posts: 6,801	That life-changing moment when you go from "Ho! Ho! Ho!" to "Oh?! Oh! Oh..."
	__________________ Do not weep. Do not wax indignant. Understand. - Baruch Spinoza You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. - Harlan Ellison

5th December 2017, 08:59 AM	#27
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 14,076	Originally Posted by SOdhner Yeah, but he won't. I'm the one looking stuff up about this (namely, what age is normal for them to figure this out). He's ten, which is a little older than average but he's also doing home school so there's less outside influence. Why won't he? I have a 2 year old so im asking to calibrate my own expectations.

5th December 2017, 09:35 AM	#28
SOdhner Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,742	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Why won't he? I have a 2 year old so im asking to calibrate my own expectations. His specific personality. He won't research anything we don't force him to. He's smart, he thinks about stuff and how it works, he has a good head for strategy... but really he wants to be bouncing on the trampoline, kicking something over the fence, or playing video games. He'll ponder stuff, but he won't look it up. EDIT: Note that we got him when he was four, and a decent amount of this was already baked in. Would he look stuff up more if we had had him since infancy? Maybe, maybe not. But if your 2yo is your biological kid the apple may fall closer to the tree. Or... not. Kids, man.
	Last edited by SOdhner; 5th December 2017 at 09:37 AM.

5th December 2017, 09:36 AM	#29
Spock Jenkins Muse Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 735	Santa's middle name is "Amazon", and he drops gifts off on our front porch periodically throughout the holiday season. They end up under the tree "the night before Christmas". My kids all play along. We leave letters from Santa, they leave cookies and milk for Santa. It's all in good fun. They drop hints that they know what's up, but the older ones have been good about not ruining the fun for their younger siblings.
Spock Jenkins Muse Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 735

6th December 2017, 02:26 AM	#33
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 25,269	Amazingly enough, just before Christmas, it's been found that a relic of Saint Nicholas is approximately the right age...... Quote: A fragment of bone claimed to be from St Nicholas - the 4th-Century saintly inspiration for Father Christmas - has been radio carbon tested by the University of Oxford. The test has found that the relic does date from the time of St Nicholas, who is believed to have died about 343AD. While not providing proof that this is from the saint, it has been confirmed as authentically from that era. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-42239197

6th December 2017, 03:27 AM	#34
Porpoise of Life Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 4,443	Originally Posted by The Don Amazingly enough, just before Christmas, it's been found that a relic of Saint Nicholas is approximately the right age...... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-42239197 Quite timely, December 6th is st. Nicholas' Day!

6th December 2017, 07:03 AM	#35
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 16,228	In Germany, children have to contend with three mythical gift-bringers: Nikolaus, Weihnachtsmann (literally: christmas-man; Father Christmas), and the Christkind (Christ child). I never grasped the latter when I was a child myself, I thought of the Christkind as a girl-angel - it never occurred to me that the baby boy Jesus is the christ child! The other two are tricky to be separated: Nikolaus of course has his own day, today, December 6th. But I always believed he made a return on Holy Night, I thought he and Weihnachtsmann are the same. Then, on Sunday, I accompanied a friend and her two children to the local christmas market, where a St. Nik - or Weihnachtmann? - was handing gift bags to children. My friend explained that she wants her kids to differentiate between St. Nikolaus, a bishop with mitra, white-and-gold gown and bishop's staff, and the Weihnachtsmann in red and white coat and fur with reindeer, who is a commercial, American invention by coca-cola. And I agreed with her. But yesterday, I remembered that Americans call the Weihnachtsmann "Santa Claus", with is none other than Saint Nicolas! They are the same after all! I am glad I don't believe in any of the three, or else I would worry I might get a few extra days in limbo for thinking wrong about them!
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

6th December 2017, 07:13 AM	#36
Porpoise of Life Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 4,443	Originally Posted by Oystein In Germany, children have to contend with three mythical gift-bringers: Nikolaus, Weihnachtsmann (literally: christmas-man; Father Christmas), and the Christkind (Christ child). I never grasped the latter when I was a child myself, I thought of the Christkind as a girl-angel - it never occurred to me that the baby boy Jesus is the christ child! The other two are tricky to be separated: Nikolaus of course has his own day, today, December 6th. But I always believed he made a return on Holy Night, I thought he and Weihnachtsmann are the same. Then, on Sunday, I accompanied a friend and her two children to the local christmas market, where a St. Nik - or Weihnachtmann? - was handing gift bags to children. My friend explained that she wants her kids to differentiate between St. Nikolaus, a bishop with mitra, white-and-gold gown and bishop's staff, and the Weihnachtsmann in red and white coat and fur with reindeer, who is a commercial, American invention by coca-cola. And I agreed with her. But yesterday, I remembered that Americans call the Weihnachtsmann "Santa Claus", with is none other than Saint Nicolas! They are the same after all! I am glad I don't believe in any of the three, or else I would worry I might get a few extra days in limbo for thinking wrong about them! And both of them are actually Wotan! (Well, according to the theory that the tradition of midwinter giftgiving by a whitebearded man who rides through the skies was a pagan tradition that couldn't be stamped out by the church, so they just adopted it.)

7th December 2017, 02:01 PM	#37
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 83,373	Nonsense, it was the Hogfather!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

7th December 2017, 03:40 PM	#38
aleCcowaN imperfecto del subjuntivo Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer... Posts: 9,373	Santa IS real! There's a lot of evidence: millions of presents and knick knacks bellow Xmas trees and in sockets, all appearing almost at the same time. Use Occam's razor: what is more reasonable? an amazingly nice person doing the same kind of good deed all around the world using the same modus operandi or a humongous bunch of heterogeneous people who wouldn't know each other but conspire to provide a false "Santa"? C'mon! Besides, Santa is a giver and not a taker. It's the religion attached to Xmas the one that takes concrete things a gives just promises. Those faith mongers are the ones who are indubitably wrong.
	__________________ Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.