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Tags Cliven Bundy , militia incidents , Nevada incidents

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Old 10th April 2014, 06:20 PM   #1
crescent
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Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher in clash with federal

Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher in clash with federal rangers

Quote:
From near and wide, armed men are trickling toward Cliven Bundy’s ranch, where the rancher’s fight with the federal government has become a rallying cry for militia groups across the United States.

On Wednesday, that dispute teetered at the edge of deadly conflict, when Cliven Bundy’s family members and supporters scuffled with rangers from the Bureau of Land Management sent to protect the federal roundup of Bundy’s cattle on public land.

One of Bundy’s seven sons was shot with a stun gun, and Bundy’s sister was knocked to the ground; but no one was seriously hurt, and no arrests were made.

By late Wednesday, three militia members — two from Montana and one from Utah — had arrived at the ranch 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas. Other militia groups have inundated the Bundy household with calls and pledges to muster at the site. Their stated goal: to protect the Bundys from tyranny.
Interesting times in Southern Nevada....
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Old 10th April 2014, 06:59 PM   #2
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I remember this happened with that couple that decided not to pay taxes a few years back and barricaded themselves in their home. Feds surrounded it, and intercepted nutjobs trying to bring them food and supplies.

I think movies about the plucky band of misfits bringing down the evil empire has given some people the wrong idea.
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Old 10th April 2014, 07:01 PM   #3
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That said the article suggests the BLM is being the sterotypically heavy-handed government agency, with the typical "**** you" 1st amendment areas
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Old 11th April 2014, 05:23 AM   #4
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I'm guessing white supremacists smell a new Ruby Ridge.

ETA: It's funny how in the comments section when people cite how the Bundy's don't have a constitutional right to the land, citing actual legal sources, the so called constitution loving righties dismiss it as leftist propaganda.

The constitution apparently starts and ends with the 2nd amendment for these people.

Last edited by uke2se; 11th April 2014 at 05:47 AM.
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Old 11th April 2014, 06:20 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by quixotecoyote View Post
That said the article suggests the BLM is being the sterotypically heavy-handed government agency, with the typical "**** you" 1st amendment areas
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm guessing white supremacists smell a new Ruby Ridge.

ETA: It's funny how in the comments section when people cite how the Bundy's don't have a constitutional right to the land, citing actual legal sources, the so called constitution loving righties dismiss it as leftist propaganda.

The constitution apparently starts and ends with the 2nd amendment for these people.
Indeed. Buckley lost the case back in '98 and was told a year ago that his cattle could be seized; a fairly typical freeloading FMOTL it appears.
More links.
The case.
The militia.
This should be amusing.
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Old 11th April 2014, 06:58 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by quixotecoyote View Post
That said the article suggests the BLM is being the sterotypically heavy-handed government agency, with the typical "**** you" 1st amendment areas
Which doesn't seem to be the case. My understanding is that the guy's family was using federal lands for grazing for many years. At some point the federal gov't said "you gotta pay in order to let your cattle graze here". Whether that was from day 1 or instituted later on, I dunno, but they paid the fee.

Then in the late 90s, they stopped paying the fee. Went to court, lost, and last year they were told by a court to stop or else their cattle would be seized. Surprise, surprise, one year later they are still letting the cattle graze and so the BLM is seizing the cattle.
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Old 11th April 2014, 09:02 AM   #7
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Thanks for the details of the dispute castmate1 and bonzombiekitty. Having lived in Las Vegas for some time, this is what I suspected when I read the OP.

What a lot of people don't realize, is that that BLM land is not 'public' land in they way we typically think of it. While it is owned by the federal government it is not open for public use. A lot of time the feds will keep ownership of the lends but lease rights to use the land (typically mining but sometimes ranching as well).
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Old 11th April 2014, 09:27 AM   #8
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Well, yep, now heavily armed revolutionary rightwingers are grouping for the start of a revolution.

In other news, a judge's relative was kidnapped in an attempt to influence the judiciary.

Welcome to Germany, 1933.
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Old 11th April 2014, 09:32 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by cwalner View Post
Thanks for the details of the dispute castmate1 and bonzombiekitty. Having lived in Las Vegas for some time, this is what I suspected when I read the OP.

What a lot of people don't realize, is that that BLM land is not 'public' land in they way we typically think of it. While it is owned by the federal government it is not open for public use. A lot of time the feds will keep ownership of the lends but lease rights to use the land (typically mining but sometimes ranching as well).
I liked the BLM statement of, basically, "to be fair to the other cattle owners, who are abiding by the law, we have to do this"

He's not just ripping off the government, he's cheating his fellow farmers.
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Old 11th April 2014, 09:35 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by cwalner View Post
What a lot of people don't realize, is that that BLM land is not 'public' land in they way we typically think of it. While it is owned by the federal government it is not open for public use. A lot of time the feds will keep ownership of the lends but lease rights to use the land (typically mining but sometimes ranching as well).
Ranching is much more widespread than mining, and nearly all grazing allotments are open to the public. Very little BLM land is not open to the public, although some bits and pieces charge fees and some areas are not accessible by vehicle. The public use is structured (designated roads and trails, permits required for commercial uses and such), but it is clearly there.

Wonkette has a good article on this, providing some more background. Bundy has made a lot of comments in the past about getting "physical", or using "force" to "take things back". He has not, to my knowledge ever made any clear cut overt threats of violence, but has made a great many statements that seem to strongly imply violence. I don't know if he is purposefully ambiguous or not, but a good bit of what he says is open to interpretation, and many people interpret his statements as threats.

I do agree that the first amendment areas were a bad idea - I didn't like the concept when the Bush administration started using them, and I still don't like it. BLM has since taken them down. A nice press kit with suggestions for where it might be safe to congregate would have been a better idea.

I work for the BLM, the office I work in is not involved with this, other than having a few of our LEOs assigned to the operation - I am following this out of personal interest but have no professional involvement, and I am pretty much just a low level peon with no authority anyway. The "Ranch Riot" video embedded in the OP article gives an idea of how amped up people are. I am just hoping this does not lead to violence.

Last edited by crescent; 11th April 2014 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 11th April 2014, 09:51 AM   #11
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Only with the Federal Government does it take 20 years to serve an eviction notice after stopping rent payments. ..
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Old 11th April 2014, 11:09 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by jj View Post
Well, yep, now heavily armed revolutionary rightwingers are grouping for the start of a revolution.

In other news, a judge's relative was kidnapped in an attempt to influence the judiciary.

Welcome to Germany, 1933.
Quick question.
In your metaphor, is it the militia or the BLM that are the Nazi's.
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Old 11th April 2014, 12:42 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Quick question.
In your metaphor, is it the militia or the BLM that are the Nazi's.

First, there's no metaphor. I'm simply referring to known historical facts.

As to your dishonest attempt to suggest that I might somehow endorse the criminal actions of right-wing fascist revolutionaries, well, that kind of dishonestly speaks only to your own conduct.

As an aside, the BLM, here, is only trying to do what Reagan, Bush 1, and Bush 2, among others, told them to do, which is pay their own way.
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Old 11th April 2014, 12:45 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by jj View Post
Well, yep, now heavily armed revolutionary rightwingers are grouping for the start of a revolution.

In other news, a judge's relative was kidnapped in an attempt to influence the judiciary.

Welcome to Germany, 1933.
It was a prosecutor's father and it was done by the Bloods Street Gang.

You attempt to conflate that with "rightwingers" in you Godwin post is clearly fraudulent
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Old 11th April 2014, 12:53 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm guessing white supremacists smell a new Ruby Ridge.

ETA: It's funny how in the comments section when people cite how the Bundy's don't have a constitutional right to the land, citing actual legal sources, the so called constitution loving righties dismiss it as leftist propaganda.

The constitution apparently starts and ends with the 2nd amendment for these people.
I'd be willing to bet a lot on the other side hope it ends up similar to Waco for the militia nuts.
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Old 11th April 2014, 01:00 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
It was a prosecutor's father and it was done by the Bloods Street Gang.

You attempt to conflate that with "rightwingers" in you Godwin post is clearly fraudulent
And your incredibly meaningless "refutation" misses the entire point, which is that the GOP, in concert with the media, has polarized the entire country to the point where people feel entirely free to act out.

Which is, of course, a classical historical point from 1930's Germany that you are simply avoiding.

ETA: Indeed, it was a prosecutor's relative. Sorry about that. The point still entirely remains, and is perhaps even made stronger.

Last edited by jj; 11th April 2014 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 11th April 2014, 01:06 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
I'd be willing to bet a lot on the other side hope it ends up similar to Waco for the militia nuts.
No, that would involve dead LEAs and kids.
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Old 11th April 2014, 01:18 PM   #18
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So this all seems to stem from Bundy's contention that the federal government can not legally own land within the borders of a state?
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Old 11th April 2014, 01:35 PM   #19
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Does he have a leg to stand on with regards to adverse possession?

Some of the comments I have seen on articles claim his family bought "perpetual grazing rights" back in the 1800's. Is that a thing?
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Old 11th April 2014, 01:47 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
Some of the comments I have seen on articles claim his family bought "perpetual grazing rights" back in the 1800's. Is that a thing?
Taylor Grazing Act (1934)

U.S. Grazing Service

No, it is not a thing. His family might have informally purchased rights from the local Indian tribe, way back when. It was not uncommon for ranchers to do that, but it would have had no legal standing.

From the Taylor Grazing act onward, grazing rights are leased. Leases last 10 years, and contain clauses allowing the BLM to make changes if the need arises. BLM made changes in 1993, so Bundy stopped paying. In 1998 the lease expired, which made it possible for someone else to pick it up. That someone else was Clark County.

Buying the lease and then intentionally not grazing cattle on it protected Desert tortoise habitat. This desert tortoise protection was done to compensate for the destruction of desert tortoise habitat caused by the growth of Las Vegas and other cities and towns in Clark County. The process was part of Clark County's Habitat Conservation Plan.

Last edited by crescent; 11th April 2014 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 11th April 2014, 01:53 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
Does he have a leg to stand on with regards to adverse possession?
Aside from the information provided above, you would think if there really were any leg on which to stand, it would have been argued in court(s). Given that this has been to court and they lost, it's hard to argue that they are making some justified claim.
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Old 11th April 2014, 02:09 PM   #22
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Besides, you can't 'convert' government property.

He is a squatter that overstayed his lease- by years and years. The Homestead Act ran out a few decades ago. 60's I think.
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Old 11th April 2014, 02:30 PM   #23
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If you read the court ruling it says the US has owned the title since it was purchased from Mexico in 1848.
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Old 11th April 2014, 02:36 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by jj View Post
First, there's no metaphor. I'm simply referring to known historical facts..
Ah. So you did not intend a metaphorical comparison. I would think that saying that this situation is literally akin to the rise of the Nazi's is rather over-the-top. But to be fair, I am sure the rancher's supporters are accusing the federal government of being Nazi's. I guess there is some sort of Godwinial balance to it all.
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Old 11th April 2014, 02:48 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by jj View Post
And your incredibly meaningless "refutation" misses the entire point, which is that the GOP, in concert with the media, has polarized the entire country to the point where people feel entirely free to act out.

Which is, of course, a classical historical point from 1930's Germany that you are simply avoiding.

ETA: Indeed, it was a prosecutor's relative. Sorry about that. The point still entirely remains, and is perhaps even made stronger.
Your suggestion that the media and the GOP have emboldened a gangster street gang like the Bloods to "act out" is so bizarre that I scarcely believe that you have even posted it.
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Old 11th April 2014, 04:13 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, that would involve dead LEAs and kids.
I way prefer dead righties on this kind of thing and no dead or harmed LEO's or kids.
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Old 11th April 2014, 06:24 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I way prefer dead righties on this kind of thing and no dead or harmed LEO's or kids.
I prefer no dead people, only some arrested lunatics. Unfortunately, it appears they are now in open revolt against the federal government.
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Old 11th April 2014, 07:15 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by jj View Post
I prefer no Republican dead people. Unfortunately, it appears they are now in open revolt against the federal government.
ftfy
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Old 11th April 2014, 07:21 PM   #29
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The guy involved is a local blowhard, and the only support he has from his own community is his family.

The reason he went on the interwebs with this is that the locals know he's full of **** as can be and has no support amongst local ranchers.

He had to drag know-nothings into the issue for support, and what he's got isn't much of anything past loud mouths and wanna-be's - I predict no effective violence on his part or from his supporters, but there will be arrests.
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Old 11th April 2014, 08:02 PM   #30
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Bundy was on Hannity. You can pretty much guess who Hannity was sympathetic with in this case.
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Old 11th April 2014, 08:35 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
ftfy
Now, that was dishonest, and is nothing more than a personal attack.

Your quote is a forgery. Have it removed.
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Old 11th April 2014, 08:36 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I predict no effective violence on his part or from his supporters, but there will be arrests.
Hopefully, you're right. I don't doubt there will be arrests, telling the feds to go away after you've lost in court a few times is really not going to work out well. Claiming you own land (or rights to land) you don't own, likewise.
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Old 11th April 2014, 08:44 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I do agree that the first amendment areas were a bad idea - I didn't like the concept when the Bush administration started using them, and I still don't like it. BLM has since taken them down. A nice press kit with suggestions for where it might be safe to congregate would have been a better idea.
I don't recognize the phrase "first amendment areas". I could guess but could you explain/give links?

TIA
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Old 11th April 2014, 09:24 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I don't recognize the phrase "first amendment areas". I could guess but could you explain/give links?

TIA
Also known as Free Speech Zones. I first started hearing of them when Bush was president. They would set them up sometimes at some distance from where Bush was speaking or staying, including his ranch in Texas.

If it were something used on a more limited basis it would not be so bad, but all too often it seems to be used to shunt protestors away from the person or event they are trying to influence.

In this case, Bundy and his supporters seem to have largely ignored the free speech zone/first amendment area, except for putting signs in them criticizing the concept of a free speech zone. It made the BLM look heavy handed and oppressive, and was very counter productive.
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Old 11th April 2014, 10:05 PM   #35
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White people. There's no understanding them.
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Old 12th April 2014, 05:50 AM   #36
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Let's open they'll be able to subdue this retard alive.
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Old 12th April 2014, 05:57 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Also known as Free Speech Zones. I first started hearing of them when Bush was president. They would set them up sometimes at some distance from where Bush was speaking or staying, including his ranch in Texas.

If it were something used on a more limited basis it would not be so bad, but all too often it seems to be used to shunt protestors away from the person or event they are trying to influence.

In this case, Bundy and his supporters seem to have largely ignored the free speech zone/first amendment area, except for putting signs in them criticizing the concept of a free speech zone. It made the BLM look heavy handed and oppressive, and was very counter productive.
All publicly available federal areas are required to have 1st amendment areas. They are set up in advance and approved in advance of anyone asking to use them, so no one knows what kind of groups might be using them. They are set up so that parking and people can use them without interfering with other users of public land. One would not be set up in a small, visitor-center parking lot, for example, because it could interfere with others trying to use the visitor center. A pull-out along the main road - still visible but less often used - would be more typical. These areas are not changed from group to group as they are pre-set.
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Old 12th April 2014, 07:43 AM   #38
kookbreaker
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
ftfy
That was pretty sickening. Reported.
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Old 12th April 2014, 09:34 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by jj View Post
And your incredibly meaningless "refutation" misses the entire point, which is that the GOP, in concert with the media, has polarized the entire country to the point where people feel entirely free to act out.

Which is, of course, a classical historical point from 1930's Germany that you are simply avoiding.

ETA: Indeed, it was a prosecutor's relative. Sorry about that. The point still entirely remains, and is perhaps even made stronger.
The GOP inspired the Bloods to kidnap a prosecutor's father?

The crazy is getting stronger in you by the day jj!
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Old 12th April 2014, 09:34 AM   #40
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The story is that the Feds are taking this guys land so they can give it to China.
Something about a big Solar Array farm...

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