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Tags Cliven Bundy , militia incidents , Nevada incidents

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Old 14th April 2014, 03:43 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
There's even a convenient and foolproof scapegoat already in place for Bundy to blame when he notices missing cattle. Think about it.
Area 51?
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Old 14th April 2014, 04:11 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Welfare rancher. I've never even heard of this but I'm not surprised in the least that a people will vilify at every opportunity social welfare programs, but support with arms this dolt that is receiving welfare as well. They color the welfare as some sort of God-Given right to the land, so it's all good though.

These idiots even sent an "emergency dispatch" type letter to Paul Watson of all people. Apparently they mixed up the word "conservative" with "conservation" and he wound up on their mailing list with predictably hilarious results.
Sounds more like a case of mistaken identity, seeing as there's a Paul J. Watson on the InfoWhoresWars staff.
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Old 14th April 2014, 04:19 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Yeah. Here we have people ready to fight back against a government they perceive as being corrupt and tyrannical. That's arguably the primary reason the Second Amendment exists. Yet other pro-Second Amendment folks are essentially throwing them under the bus.

That's another issue with the individual rights interpretation of the Second Amendment; everyone draws their own line. There's a complete lack of cohesion that would make any armed resistance at any given time less effective than, say, a well-regulated militia that can be mobilized on command to protect their state.
But we have this unconstitutional standing army now. Our founders never intended that.
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Old 14th April 2014, 05:45 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Please please please tell me you have a link for that.
He posted it on Facebook - not sure if I can copy and paste the entire doc though.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater
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Old 14th April 2014, 06:53 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
He posted it on Facebook - not sure if I can copy and paste the entire doc though.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater
Reading the conservative group letter you get the impression that the BLM seized the land from the state and started charging grazing fees in 1993. The 1998 court ruling points out that the Bundy family had been paying grazing fees to the BLM since 1954 and that the Federal government has owned the land since 1848.

The court document hints at what may be the real change. When Cliven Bundy's father controlled the ranch, the grazing fees were paid.
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Old 14th April 2014, 11:41 AM   #126
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Looks like they released the cattle that had been rounded up. I really hope this guy doesn't get away with this. The feds tried for years to resolve this dispute but Cliven insist on living by his own set of laws and no gets to continue his theft of resources because jerks with guns threatened law officers enforcing court orders.

Cliven has had every chance in the world to get on the right side of the law again and refuses to.
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Old 14th April 2014, 11:42 AM   #127
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This video shows the events on Saturday. It's actually a reasonably well edited video.

ETA: The Atlantic has a good write-upon some of the constitutional issues. It also has a good photo of a sniper aiming at the Federal LE Rangers.

Last edited by crescent; 14th April 2014 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 14th April 2014, 11:57 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
This video shows the events on Saturday. It's actually a reasonably well edited video.

ETA: The Atlantic has a good write-upon some of the constitutional issues. It also has a good photo of a sniper aiming at the Federal LE Rangers.
Someone wants to get hole-y.
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Old 14th April 2014, 12:15 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
Looks like they released the cattle that had been rounded up. I really hope this guy doesn't get away with this. The feds tried for years to resolve this dispute but Cliven insist on living by his own set of laws and no gets to continue his theft of resources because jerks with guns threatened law officers enforcing court orders.

Cliven has had every chance in the world to get on the right side of the law again and refuses to.
Our nation is full of people who stop thinking when someone waves an American flag and talks about patriotism while claiming to be a victim of the evil government. The right wing echo chamber that doesn't give a damn about reality has been doing its best to spead misinformation about this case. For now they have turned a FOTL idiot into a folk hero, mostly by lying about the facts and playing up the emotional appeal.
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Old 14th April 2014, 12:27 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
This video shows the events on Saturday. It's actually a reasonably well edited video.

ETA: The Atlantic has a good write-upon some of the constitutional issues. It also has a good photo of a sniper aiming at the Federal LE Rangers.
I like this bit at the end of the Atlantic article:
Quote:
... if legal and constitutional arguments could persuade the militia movement, there might not be a militia movement.
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Old 14th April 2014, 01:08 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Our nation is full of people who stop thinking when someone waves an American flag and talks about patriotism while claiming to be a victim of the evil government. The right wing echo chamber that doesn't give a damn about reality has been doing its best to spead misinformation about this case. For now they have turned a FOTL idiot into a folk hero, mostly by lying about the facts and playing up the emotional appeal.
Well said.

A friend of mine on fb posted that this event in Nevada was a perfect example of the need for a well regulated militia to protect rights and property. When I challenged him on that he claimed that this had nothing to do with cattle grazing but it was because Cliven was refusing to join a "Union." I Have asked for more details and posted a link to the actual court order from last year.
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Old 14th April 2014, 01:23 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by jhunter1163 View Post
He's a FMOTL who doesn't recognize the authority of the federal government; he's tried to pay the fees to the state of Nevada, who have told him that the fees should properly be paid to the feds, but he's not listening.
Again: Let him pay Clark County, or the state of Nevada. Governments are capable of sorting things out. If someone has paranoid delusions about the feds, but not (for some reason) other levels of government, let those governments work it out. It sounds like he wasn't trying to freeload, which negates the fairness issue. Sending in federal law enforcement just feeds the paranoia loop.

Maybe that's the deal that was reached?

ETA: Parallels with Waco. Malcolm Gladwell suggests that tragedy could have been avoided. It also involved local officials who knew the players and thought there was a better way to handle things:

Sacred and Profane: How not to negotiate with believers
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...urrentPage=all

Last edited by Minoosh; 14th April 2014 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 14th April 2014, 01:25 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer View Post
Area 51?


Pith nom.
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Old 14th April 2014, 01:30 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Again: Let him pay Clark County, or the state of Nevada. Governments are capable of sorting things out. If someone has paranoid delusions about the feds, but not (for some reason) other levels of government, let those governments work it out. It sounds like he wasn't trying to freeload, which negates the fairness issue. Sending in federal law enforcement just feeds the paranoia loop.

Maybe that's the deal that was reached?
It's never been confirmed that he tried the pay Clark County. In fact he didn't start making that claim until after the standoff started.

Quote:
An interesting note: When federal agents first deployed last week to shut down Gold Butte, Bundy did several interviews with well-known media outlets, including ABC News, Fox News and the L.A. Times.

TheBlaze also spoke with him for nearly an hour.

He never mentioned trying to make grazing fee payments to the county or being turned away by local officials. His explanations for using the land focused almost entirely on his so-called “pre-emptive rights,” which include the right to forage.

It wasn’t until Friday, more than a week after federal agents started impounding his “trespass cattle,” that Bundy started talking about trying to pay the county.

TheBlaze has not yet contacted the Clark County clerk’s office to confirm whether Bundy tried to make payment. We will include that information in this story when we receive it.
Mind you this story is from theblaze. link

Also he has paid the fees in the past, and paid them to the feds. He just decided one day it was no longer in his interest to pay these so he stopped.

Quote:
Mr. Bundy has stated repeatedly in the past that he does not recognize federal authority in Gold Butte, arguing instead that the state owns the land.

However, he hasn’t always taken such a strong stance against federal ownership of land located inside Nevada’s border. In fact, Bundy used to pay the Bureau of Land Management’s grazing fees “for years,” according to his daughter, Shiree Bundy Cox, but stopped in 1993 when he decided it wasn’t in his best interest.
Just because he is paranoid doesn't mean we should have a special set of laws for him. He knows who owns the land, he knows who he needs to pay, and he knows why. He is just refusing because he doesn't want to.
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Old 14th April 2014, 01:36 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Indeed. Buckley lost the case back in '98 and was told a year ago that his cattle could be seized; a fairly typical freeloading FMOTL it appears.
Not to be confused with welfare cheat of course.

Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I liked the BLM statement of, basically, "to be fair to the other cattle owners, who are abiding by the law, we have to do this"
He's not just ripping off the government, he's cheating his fellow farmers.
Yep.

Originally Posted by jj View Post
And your incredibly meaningless "refutation" misses the entire point, which is that the GOP, in concert with the media, has polarized the entire country to the point where people feel entirely free to act out....
Yep.

Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
Does he have a leg to stand on with regards to adverse possession?
Some of the comments I have seen on articles claim his family bought "perpetual grazing rights" back in the 1800's. Is that a thing?
It would appear the legs did not stand up in court.

Originally Posted by 16.5 View Post
Your suggestion that the media and the GOP have emboldened a gangster street gang like the Bloods to "act out" is so bizarre that I scarcely believe that you have even posted it.
While these guys would probably still exist, the GOP and all the 2nd Amendment Tea Party rhetoric likely encouraged the neighbors to show up armed and ready to shoot the rangers.

Evidence, for example:
Originally Posted by Iamme View Post
Bundy was on Hannity. You can pretty much guess who Hannity was sympathetic with in this case.
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The local republican party is having their convention today. When it was announced that the roundup was cancelled, they greeted the news with a standing ovation.

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
If the Bundy's were a bunch of hippies out there camping, conservatives would want the government to arrest them all.
Or illegal immigrants.


I'm glad the marshals/rangers backed off before a shootout, but I do hope they simply retreated to rethink the plan of attack. I don't know why they don't just confiscate this guy's bank account. He has to have a system of finances to sell those beef to market.

How about letting the buyers know if they buy that beef, the government has a lien on it?

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 14th April 2014 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 14th April 2014, 01:39 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Again: Let him pay Clark County, or the state of Nevada. Governments are capable of sorting things out. If someone has paranoid delusions about the feds, but not (for some reason) other levels of government, let those governments work it out. It sounds like he wasn't trying to freeload, which negates the fairness issue. Sending in federal law enforcement just feeds the paranoia loop.

Maybe that's the deal that was reached?
There is nothing left to pay - leases don't last forever. His lease expired on 1998. When leases expire, the rancher can automatically renew them with no competition. He didn't do that, so the rights went up for sale.

Clark County bought them, and picked up the lease. It then retired the lease, in concert with the BLM and the Fish and Wildlife Service.

This was done to protect good quality tortoise habitat as an offset for tortoise habitat elsewhere in the county that would be lost to development. Without that sort of offset, developers would be unable to develop land in tortoise habitat. There is no lease anymore, there is no legal right to graze cattle on the allotment anymore.

Had he worked with the BLM in 1993, he would have had a good chance to keep 150 AUMs out there (many other desert tortoise areas still have some cattle grazing, contrary to what many believe) - but he didn't. He could have paid his fees until 1998, and then sold the lease to Clark County for a good but of money - but he didn't.

He had a variety of ways to salvage something from this. He wants everything.

There was no deal, except to give the BLM all of 1/2 hour to leave. The BLM even had to abandon all of their equipment - the corral panels, trailers, lights, generators, tents and everything.
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Old 14th April 2014, 01:47 PM   #137
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According to the 1998 court ruling, the Bundy family paid grazing fees from 1954 to 1993. Cliven Bundy paid some of these fees as a representative of his father who owned the ranch.

Did Cliven take over control of the ranch in 1993? This may really be a story of a foolish son inheriting a ranch from a sensible father.
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Old 14th April 2014, 01:55 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

How about letting the buyers know if they buy that beef, the government has a lean on it?
I can see the ad now: Beef for sale. Extra Lien.
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Old 14th April 2014, 02:00 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How about letting the buyers know if they buy that beef, the government has a lean on it?
Lien. Made me chuckle, though.

ETA: Looks like marplots beet me to the punch.

Last edited by SezMe; 14th April 2014 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 14th April 2014, 02:01 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
According to the 1998 court ruling, the Bundy family paid grazing fees from 1954 to 1993. Cliven Bundy paid some of these fees as a representative of his father who owned the ranch.

Did Cliven take over control of the ranch in 1993? This may really be a story of a foolish son inheriting a ranch from a sensible father.
Yeah, that's what it sounds like.

Most disputes with the BLM are over the BLM grazing regs,which some ranchers consider to be too strict,but Cliven is just plain batcrap crazy with his refusal to pay the grazing fees.
This kind of thing has been going on since The Sagebrush Rebellion of the early 1980's.
Even many of the politicains out West who advocate the US public lands being turned over to the states to manage do not deny the US Government has ownership.
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Old 14th April 2014, 02:09 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Lien. Made me chuckle, though.

ETA: Looks like marplots beet me to the punch.
Busted, I wasn't thinking.

But it led to a good joke.
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Old 14th April 2014, 02:22 PM   #142
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Have the cattle shot for trespassing.
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Old 14th April 2014, 03:15 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Again: Let him pay Clark County, or the state of Nevada. Governments are capable of sorting things out. If someone has paranoid delusions about the feds, but not (for some reason) other levels of government, let those governments work it out.
To me, your proposal sounds no less absurd than my wanting to send my IRS check to my state capital, my state income tax check to the county treasurer, and my property tax check to Washington.




Quote:
It sounds like he wasn't trying to freeload, which negates the fairness issue. Sending in federal law enforcement just feeds the paranoia loop.
No. If you go read up on FMOTL, you will see that the entire purpose of the movement is to avoid paying any tax obligations and to avoid any laws that are inconvenient to the FMOTL believers. The threads in the JREF conspiracy sub-forum can get you up to speed. These guys are most assuredly freeloaders.

If sending the Feds in just feeds the paranoia, then what is the best way to deal with people who repeatedly and continuously break federal laws?
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Old 14th April 2014, 03:21 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post

No. If you go read up on FMOTL, you will see that the entire purpose of the movement is to avoid paying any tax obligations and to avoid any laws that are inconvenient to the FMOTL believers. The threads in the JREF conspiracy sub-forum can get you up to speed. These guys are most assuredly freeloaders.
Is Bundy a FMOTL? I know he's acting like it in some ways, but I didn't know he'd been identified as such.
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Old 14th April 2014, 03:24 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
There is nothing left to pay - leases don't last forever.
Thanks for informing me about the intergovernmental background.

I know of a bombing range that is also critical habitat - bombs and plane crashes sometimes having less of an impact of endangered species than, say, off-road recreation, because of mitigation measures in place, and maybe because a bombing range is considered by some to be more legitimate than a wildlife sanctuary.

Originally Posted by crescent View Post
There was no deal, except to give the BLM all of 1/2 hour to leave. The BLM even had to abandon all of their equipment - the corral panels, trailers, lights, generators, tents and everything.
However, I thought federal officials said "negotiations" led to this.
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Old 14th April 2014, 03:43 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
However, I thought federal officials said "negotiations" led to this.
Second Amendment negotiations. You know, the kind that Real American Patriots have with the henchmen of the tyrannical government.
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Old 14th April 2014, 03:49 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
However, I thought federal officials said "negotiations" led to this.
I am hearing both - Bundy claims that there were no negotiations, as does the BLM. The Sheriffs and LVPD claim there were negotiations. It seems as if the negotiations were between the Sheriff and one or more government officials above the agency level.
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Old 14th April 2014, 03:53 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
To me, your proposal sounds no less absurd than my wanting to send my IRS check to my state capital, my state income tax check to the county treasurer, and my property tax check to Washington.
Yes, I acknowledge the absurdity. I was looking for ways to forestall armed standoffs with the "feds" cast as villains. Turns out the lease payment situation was quite a bit more complicated than I realized.

Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
No. If you go read up on FMOTL, you will see that the entire purpose of the movement is to avoid paying any tax obligations and to avoid any laws that are inconvenient to the FMOTL believers.
In my limited personal experience, I have seen more wrath - and maybe qualitatively different wrath - directed at the federal government than at other jurisdictions. Maybe because it's higher profile, or works on a bigger scale, or invites more ideology-fueled controversy.

Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
If sending the Feds in just feeds the paranoia, then what is the best way to deal with people who repeatedly and continuously break federal laws?
I linked to the Malcolm Gladwell piece in an attempt to answer that question. I'm not sure there is any single "best way." In general I think keeping things low-key is advisable.
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Old 14th April 2014, 04:01 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I'm guessing white supremacists smell a new Ruby Ridge.

ETA: It's funny how in the comments section when people cite how the Bundy's don't have a constitutional right to the land, citing actual legal sources, the so called constitution loving righties dismiss it as leftist propaganda.

The constitution apparently starts and ends with the 2nd amendment for these people.
Indeed.

This is good because the 'nutters are about due for a new hero; Koresh and Weaver need a break.
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Old 14th April 2014, 04:27 PM   #150
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The BLM have so far spent an estimated $5 Million in their attempts to steal the cattle belonging to Cliven Bundy from the desert lands on which his family’s cattle have been grazing the sparse desert forage since 1870.
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Old 14th April 2014, 04:41 PM   #151
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Since 1870 the Bundy family have managed and improved the land in question.

The Bureau of Land Management has for decades been illegally destroying the grazing rights of ranchers, and setting up regulations detrimental to ranchers and in violation of the US Constitution.

The US Federal Government have since 1993 illegally taken control of land which under the Constitution belongs to the State. They have now sold the rights to much of it to China.
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Old 14th April 2014, 04:41 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
The BLM have so far spent an estimated $5 Million in their attempts to steal the cattle belonging to Cliven Bundy from the desert lands on which his family’s cattle have been grazing the sparse desert forage since 1870.
Actually we have had to spend an untold amount of money over the past 20 some years to get mr. Bundy to honor the obligations of a lease he executed or to remove his property from public lands to which he has no right to graze on as he failed to live up to the terms of the aforementioned lease.
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Old 14th April 2014, 05:34 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Our nation is full of people who stop thinking when someone waves an American flag and talks about patriotism while claiming to be a victim of the evil government. The right wing echo chamber that doesn't give a damn about reality has been doing its best to spead misinformation about this case. For now they have turned a FOTL idiot into a folk hero, mostly by lying about the facts and playing up the emotional appeal.
Where were the closed freeways by armed men for Westly Snipes?
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Old 14th April 2014, 05:34 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Since 1870 the Bundy family have managed and improved the land in question.

The Bureau of Land Management has for decades been illegally destroying the grazing rights of ranchers, and setting up regulations detrimental to ranchers and in violation of the US Constitution.

The US Federal Government have since 1993 illegally taken control of land which under the Constitution belongs to the State. They have now sold the rights to much of it to China.
I suggest reading the 1998 decision in US v. Cliven Bundy posted earlier in this thread. It should clear up a lot of your confusion.

For example, the US has held title to the land in question since 1848.

Last edited by Kestrel; 14th April 2014 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 14th April 2014, 05:36 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
I suggest reading the 1998 decision in US v. Cliven Bundy posted earlier in this thread. It should clear up a lot of your confusion.
I suggest reading the entire thread. You'll find that Mr. Bundy is not nearly as sympathetic a figure as some would lead you to believe.
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Old 14th April 2014, 05:36 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
It's never been confirmed that he tried the pay Clark County. In fact he didn't start making that claim until after the standoff started.



Mind you this story is from theblaze. link

Also he has paid the fees in the past, and paid them to the feds. He just decided one day it was no longer in his interest to pay these so he stopped.



Just because he is paranoid doesn't mean we should have a special set of laws for him. He knows who owns the land, he knows who he needs to pay, and he knows why. He is just refusing because he doesn't want to.
But armed squatters always win.
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Old 14th April 2014, 05:36 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
The BLM have so far spent an estimated $5 Million in their attempts to steal the cattle belonging to Cliven Bundy from the desert lands on which his family’s cattle have been grazing the sparse desert forage since 1870.
How old are those cows?

Maybe Bundy will agree to sell them all instead.

Seems to me though, if someone's cattle were grazing on my land, and they weren't removed when I wanted them gone, there'd be free steaks at my house.
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Old 14th April 2014, 05:39 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
How old are those cows?

Maybe Bundy will agree to sell them all instead.
More likely, he'll sell them at auction and the feds will swoop in and seize the proceeds.
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Old 14th April 2014, 05:43 PM   #159
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Cliven Bundy: "I abide by all of Nevada state laws. But I don’t recognize the United States government as even existing."

We need at least a #4 kook mallet for this guy.
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Old 14th April 2014, 05:46 PM   #160
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How about a few drone strikes to take out all the cattle, then a credit to Bundy for the "drone training" which is immediately deducted from his bill. Heck, he might only owe a few hundred thousand afterward.

Win for gov, win for Bundy, win for turtles and coyotes.

(No humans were harmed in the making of this scenario.)
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