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Tags Cliven Bundy , militia incidents , Nevada incidents

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Old 15th April 2014, 08:06 AM   #201
crescent
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So he is locally a lone nut? I would have thought you would get a couple other nuts just by random sample.
He's got some local support, and his own family is quite large and supports him as well (14 kids, plus spouses and grandkids).

You can kind of judge it by how the various county commissions reacted. My County's commission voted to request that the cows not be transported through here. The local republican party was happy to hear that the roundup was over, but I will give them credit and just assume that they were just happy that it did not lead to violence. None of the locals I have spoken to support Bundy - and this is the talk of the town. The cooments sections of the local papers are about a 50/50 mix, but it has been my experience that comments sections tend bring out a conservative response that that is not proportionate to the population.

The next County over (further from Bundy) also asked that the cattle not be moved through there. They voted that if the roundup occurred, they would unilaterally roundup the wild horses in their county that they feel are destroying the range. When it was actually time to do that, the county scaled back enormously and focused on capturing released/abandoned domestic horses on private land. (Something they probably could have been doing all along).

The next county from them (even further from Bundy) supported Bundy. On of the commissioners from that county assumed that the Clark County commissioners supported Bundy, so he called one of the Clark County Commissioners up to ask how he could help. The Clark county guy told him off in words that are not repeatable here.

Watch the video of Bundy giving orders to the Clark County Sheriff - now try to imagine that Sheriff having any love for Bundy, considering that Bundy has been pulling this kind of attitude for a generation now.
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Old 15th April 2014, 08:17 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
There are posts being shared on facebook that paint a picture of the BLM seizing his land and then forcing him to pay rent for it. No matter of fact presentation seems to work on dissuading people sharing such things that it is hogwash.
My friend on fb is now saying he has no problem with the cattle being seized from public land but the LEO from BLM took the cattle off Bundy's private property. I have asked for proof of this but it has so far come in the form of crickets chirping.
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Old 15th April 2014, 08:38 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
My friend on fb is now saying he has no problem with the cattle being seized from public land but the LEO from BLM took the cattle off Bundy's private property. I have asked for proof of this but it has so far come in the form of crickets chirping.
One of my FB friends is posting pro Bundy links so fast that he doesn't have time to respond to comments.

Funny thing is that he owns livestock and lives nearby. In this area, it's common for ranchers to lease grazing rights on public land. He should be well versed on how grazing leases work, but you wouldn't know that from the FB posts.
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Old 15th April 2014, 09:05 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Bundy... what an unfortunate last name in that it conjures up for me two associations: (1) Ted Bundy; and (2) Al Bundy.
(3) Carol M. Bundy , (4) King Kong Bundy , (5) Olivia Newton Bundy (actually, this one is cool IMO)
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Old 15th April 2014, 09:28 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
My friend on fb is now saying he has no problem with the cattle being seized from public land but the LEO from BLM took the cattle off Bundy's private property. I have asked for proof of this but it has so far come in the form of crickets chirping.
Even if they had done that (again there is no evidenc of that) that is the kind of thing the federal government does when you owe them a million dollars. Seizing assets goes well beyond bank accounts.
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Old 15th April 2014, 09:42 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
Ignorant city slickers and others who have no conception of pioneer heritage and inheritance, land and stock management, the actual protections of the US Constitution, and the actual distinctions between State and Federal legal powers and responsibilities should refrain from flippant comments on that of which they know nothing.

There were many young calves, and many cows calving. The separated calves would have died.

Evidence of BLM equipment being used to dig indicates many cows also died.

Steers and young stock are not usually tagged or branded. Many cows also are not. There is no legal requirement to brand stock. Unless sold privately, ear tags are required before stock can be sold.
Sorry to break this to you, but Bundy can assert till he's blue in the face that he has hereditary title or somesuch other fantasy based entitlement to use the land in question, but he doesn't and he's lost twice in the courts.

The reality here is that he simply believes that somehow he isn't obliged to follow the law - never a good basic premise to operate under - and every "fact" that he asserts that support his claims is not, has not and does not prevail as evidence before a court of law. His only course of action is to make noise, paint himself as victim and wait for other deluded folks to race to his defense.

I've read both cases he lost as well as his response to the MSJ, and it's not much farther advanced from the standard FOTL nonsense - he asserts he's not subject to the rule of law because "he doesn't have a contract with the Federal government" flat-out ******** of the worst sort (I've seen worse though, an individual that I know asserted as the first answer to the criminal complaint was that he has never spelled his name in all capital letters, so the individual named in the indictment was not him...he went to prison) and Bundy is not going to prevail in a court of law using the facts that he asserts.

You might want to read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_...dalupe_Hidalgo

Bundy claims hereditary rights to graze from 1870, but it appears to me (and the court that cited this treaty) that the 1848 treaty would trump anything outside of actual title to the property, and Bundy has yet to show any such title in his possession.
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Old 15th April 2014, 09:44 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
He's got some local support, and his own family is quite large and supports him as well (14 kids, plus spouses and grandkids).

You can kind of judge it by how the various county commissions reacted. My County's commission voted to request that the cows not be transported through here. The local republican party was happy to hear that the roundup was over, but I will give them credit and just assume that they were just happy that it did not lead to violence. None of the locals I have spoken to support Bundy - and this is the talk of the town. The cooments sections of the local papers are about a 50/50 mix, but it has been my experience that comments sections tend bring out a conservative response that that is not proportionate to the population.

The next County over (further from Bundy) also asked that the cattle not be moved through there. They voted that if the roundup occurred, they would unilaterally roundup the wild horses in their county that they feel are destroying the range. When it was actually time to do that, the county scaled back enormously and focused on capturing released/abandoned domestic horses on private land. (Something they probably could have been doing all along).

The next county from them (even further from Bundy) supported Bundy. On of the commissioners from that county assumed that the Clark County commissioners supported Bundy, so he called one of the Clark County Commissioners up to ask how he could help. The Clark county guy told him off in words that are not repeatable here.

Watch the video of Bundy giving orders to the Clark County Sheriff - now try to imagine that Sheriff having any love for Bundy, considering that Bundy has been pulling this kind of attitude for a generation now.
That's pretty much what I've heard from my friends there.
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Old 15th April 2014, 10:05 AM   #208
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From what I have heard, Americans For Prosperity has created ads portraying Bundy as a folk hero. The agenda should be obvious, fire up the rabble with a pack of lies for the November election. It also adds one more Federal agency to the right wing hate list. An advantage for those in the mining and oil business who would prefer a hobbled BLM watching over their operations on public land.
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Old 15th April 2014, 10:14 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Sorry to break this to you, but Bundy can assert till he's blue in the face that he has hereditary title or somesuch other fantasy based entitlement to use the land in question, but he doesn't and he's lost twice in the courts.
I count four times. Twice in 2013 and twice in 1998. Bundy appealed the 1998 decision, the rejection of his appeal is at the end of the Scribd document posted here.

The Tea Party dismisses the court rulings with the assertion that Federal Judges are all puppets of the evil Harry Reid.

Bundy will almost certainly lose more court cases this year. A criminal contempt of court charge is probably in the works.
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Old 15th April 2014, 10:18 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
From what I have heard, Americans For Prosperity has created ads portraying Bundy as a folk hero. The agenda should be obvious, fire up the rabble with a pack of lies for the November election. It also adds one more Federal agency to the right wing hate list. An advantage for those in the mining and oil business who would prefer a hobbled BLM watching over their operations on public land.
Nice that the Koch brothers have his back.
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Old 15th April 2014, 11:02 AM   #211
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http://benswann.com/exclusive-source...on-bundy-home/

"Sheriff Richard Mack of the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association has revealed... that he has received intelligence from multiple, credible sources inside the BLM and the Las Vegas Metro that there is “no question” that the federal government is planning a raid on the Bundy home and the homes of their children who live on the property. According to Mack, the so-called retreat was nothing more than theatrics. “It was a ploy to get people to back off, to get people out of the way. They weren’t expecting us to get this amount of people here. They were surprised by the numbers and so they wanted a way to get us out of here. This was a ploy to get us out of here and then they’re going after the Bundys.” Mack said that when he was at the Bundy ranch on Saturday there were an estimated 600 to 800 protesters present when federal agents were releasing the cattle."
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Old 15th April 2014, 11:17 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
http://benswann.com/exclusive-source...on-bundy-home/

"Sheriff Richard Mack of the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association has revealed... that he has received intelligence from multiple, credible sources inside the BLM and the Las Vegas Metro that there is “no question” that the federal government is planning a raid on the Bundy home and the homes of their children who live on the property. According to Mack, the so-called retreat was nothing more than theatrics. “It was a ploy to get people to back off, to get people out of the way. They weren’t expecting us to get this amount of people here. They were surprised by the numbers and so they wanted a way to get us out of here. This was a ploy to get us out of here and then they’re going after the Bundys.” Mack said that when he was at the Bundy ranch on Saturday there were an estimated 600 to 800 protesters present when federal agents were releasing the cattle."
While this is complete BS from a kook (Sheriff Mack, not the poster), I certainly hope the feds do get this guy. He's a criminal.
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Old 15th April 2014, 11:20 AM   #213
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I threw together a quick timeline on my lunch break today:

Quote:
Federal Land Management
1784 - Ordnance Act: Land to be mapped. Define which areas can be settled and which belong to Indians. Settle disputes and regulate homesteading. Land is used as payment for soldiers in the Revolutionary War
Ordnance Survey 1786, part of Treasury Department – carry out Ordnance Act.
Constitution 1789 – Allows federal go to manage property. The fed was already managing land and the Constitution did not specify any changes. Constitution established that Indian Tribes are sovereign, and that lands allocated to Indians are not available for Homesteading.
1812 – Louisiana Purchase, war of 1812. Land Office created out of the Ordnance Survey – map Louisiana Purchase, regulate homesteading. Land used to pay soldiers
1848 – Mexican American War ends with treaty of Guadalupe-Hildago. Interior Dept established, Land Office moved to Interior. Interior also manages Indian related issues, mining and geology.
1853 – Gasden Purchase. New land managed by Interior.
1861 – Civil War – land used to pay soldiers.
1862 – Homestead Act – size of homesteads increased.
1864 – Nevada becomes a state. Nevada Constitution contains clauses recognizing federal land ownership, recognizing federal supremacy, and authorizing us of force by feds to maintain supremacy.
1864 – Yosemite Land grant – some land removed from homesteading availability to be preserved in natural state. Civil War ends.
1876 – Yellowstone National Park established – more land removed from homesteading to be preserved in Natural state.
1877 – Bundy’s ranch homesteaded (This is what Bundy claims, at least, I have not verified it). His family would have filed paperwork with the Land Office.
1905 – Antiquities Act, Grand Canyon National Monument. More land removed from homesteading. In this era more and more National Parks start to get designated. The President can now use Executive Order to remove lands from availability for homesteading.
1905 – US Forest Service established – about 80 million acres withdrawn from homesteading, managed for timber resources.
1915 National Park Service established.
1933 – Taylor Grazing Act, grazing on Lands Office Lands and Forest Service lands is regulated by newly created Grazing Service. Grazing rights are leased on a 10-year basis, not owned. Ranchers can, however, own water rights independent of grazing leases.
1937 - Bankhead–Jones Farm Tenant Act. As a result of the Great Depression and the dustbowl, some homesteads are abandoned and brought back into Federal ownership.
1946 – Grazing Service and Land Office merged to form Bureau of Land Management.
1953 – Bundys begin paying for leases on Bunkerville allotment (according to 1998 court ruling)
1964 – Wilderness Act
1968 – National Environmental Policy Act
1973 – Endangered Species Act. Bundys continuously pay grazing fees from 1973 through1993 (according to 1998 ruling).
1976 -- Federal Lands Management and Policy Act – consolidates dozens of acts into one, provides structure and function to BLM. This is the BLM’s “Organic Act”. FLPMA ends Homesteading in the contiguous U.S.
1979 – Grazing fees raised to $1.35 per Cow/Calf Pair (Animal Unit) per month. They have not been raised since then.
1980 –Desert Tortoise listed as Threatened. At first, this designation only applies only to Beaver Dam slope in Utah, about 15 miles northeast of Bunkerville.
1986 – Homesteading ends in Alaska. End of Homesteading in America.
1990 – Desert tortoise listed as threatened through Mojave desert – including Bunkerville
1993 –Cliven Bundy stops paying fees. He attempts to pay Clark County, which returns the check. The check would have been insufficient relative to the number of cows he already had out.
1994 – Desert tortoise Critical Habitat is designated, including much of the Bunkerville allotment.
1998 - First Court decision against Bundy. Clark County leases the Grazing rights to Bunkerville allotment and, in concert with the BLM and Fish and Wildife Service, retires them. End of legal grazing on Bunkerville allotment.
It might have a few errors and typos, as I threw it together mostly from memory and in a rush while trying to not get crumbs on my keyboard

We use the courts to settle disputes over what is or is not unconstitutional. By definition, the Supreme Court is never wrong. The only way to nullify a Supreme Court decision is to pass a Constitutional Amendment through the electoral process. All of the laws and agencies in my timeline have been challenged, and have been found to be constitutional. Federal ownership of land has been challenged and has been found to be constitutional. Bundy is ignoring Article III of the U.S. Constitution, which has already been used to determine that the Property Clause of the Article IV allows for federal retention of land. Article III procedures have determined that the Supremacy Clause renders Bundy's amendment 10 invalid; the Constitution of the State of Nevada spells this out in very clear terms.

Last edited by crescent; 15th April 2014 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 15th April 2014, 11:26 AM   #214
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A tactical retreat made sense, Janadele. It shouldn't be a surprise that's all it was. What is a surprise is the 24 hour news coverage hasn't arrived on scene yet.
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Old 15th April 2014, 11:27 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
http://benswann.com/exclusive-source...on-bundy-home/

"Sheriff Richard Mack of the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association has revealed... that he has received intelligence from multiple, credible sources inside the BLM and the Las Vegas Metro that there is “no question” that the federal government is planning a raid on the Bundy home and the homes of their children who live on the property. According to Mack, the so-called retreat was nothing more than theatrics. “It was a ploy to get people to back off, to get people out of the way. They weren’t expecting us to get this amount of people here. They were surprised by the numbers and so they wanted a way to get us out of here. This was a ploy to get us out of here and then they’re going after the Bundys.” Mack said that when he was at the Bundy ranch on Saturday there were an estimated 600 to 800 protesters present when federal agents were releasing the cattle."
Crack is whack.

I'll bring the popcorn.
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Old 15th April 2014, 11:36 AM   #216
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What's missing from this dramady is Bundy's lawyer. Where's the well-spoken guy in the nice suit, advocating the merits of his client's position?

I don't have much hope for the guy if he can't attract a lawyer to the bright lights of free publicity. Maybe his case really is that bad.
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Old 15th April 2014, 11:36 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
He's got some local support, and his own family is quite large and supports him as well (14 kids, plus spouses and grandkids).

[snipped for thread aesthetics]
Thanks for the local insight, very interesting indeed.


Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
From what I have heard, Americans For Prosperity has created ads portraying Bundy as a folk hero. The agenda should be obvious, fire up the rabble with a pack of lies for the November election. It also adds one more Federal agency to the right wing hate list. An advantage for those in the mining and oil business who would prefer a hobbled BLM watching over their operations on public land.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Nice that the Koch brothers have his back.
This needed a cite so I looked around. The DailyKos has the specific details of the Kochtopus tentacles in NV.

The Nevada Standoff Has Nothing To Do With "Tyranny," "Sovereignty," "Freedom," or Cows.
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Old 15th April 2014, 11:42 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
http://benswann.com/exclusive-source...on-bundy-home/

"Sheriff Richard Mack of the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association has revealed... that he has received intelligence from multiple, credible sources inside the BLM and the Las Vegas Metro that there is “no question” that the federal government is planning a raid on the Bundy home and the homes of their children who live on the property. According to Mack, the so-called retreat was nothing more than theatrics. “It was a ploy to get people to back off, to get people out of the way. They weren’t expecting us to get this amount of people here. They were surprised by the numbers and so they wanted a way to get us out of here. This was a ploy to get us out of here and then they’re going after the Bundys.” Mack said that when he was at the Bundy ranch on Saturday there were an estimated 600 to 800 protesters present when federal agents were releasing the cattle."
Is that the same Richard Mack who said, "“We were actually strategizing to put all the women up at the front. If they are going to start shooting, it’s going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZd61_9hofE

A real peach, that guy.
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Old 15th April 2014, 11:44 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by SomedayGirl View Post
Is that the same Richard Mack who said, "“We were actually strategizing to put all the women up at the front. If they are going to start shooting, it’s going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZd61_9hofE

A real peach, that guy.
What, are they short on children and puppies?
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Old 15th April 2014, 12:26 PM   #220
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This reminds me of the Browns case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_and_Elaine_Brown

I hope this one ends just as bloodlessly (and Bundy comes out looking just as stupid). There was a blog with rather amusing coverage of the trial:
http://www.redcrayons.net/
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Old 15th April 2014, 12:33 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The only way to nullify a Supreme Court decision is to pass a Constitutional Amendment through the electoral process.
Except the Supreme Court can reverse past Supreme Court decisions, right? For example, "separate but equal."
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Old 15th April 2014, 12:36 PM   #222
marplots
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Originally Posted by daggerstab View Post
This reminds me of the Browns case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_and_Elaine_Brown
"Edward Brown is scheduled for release on July 26, 2045, when he would be about 103 years old. Elaine Brown is scheduled for release in November 2042; she would also be about 102 years old if released at that time."

At least they have something to look forward to.
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Old 15th April 2014, 12:54 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Except the Supreme Court can reverse past Supreme Court decisions, right? For example, "separate but equal."
Well, there is that, and, uh, well.....

I'm not lawyer, you know. I was more trying to make the point that there is no "second amendment solution" to dealing with laws one does not like. There are courts and ballot boxes for that.
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Old 15th April 2014, 01:17 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
What, are they short on children and puppies?
Most puppies, including our 10 week old springer, would have the sense to run as fast as they can away from this sorry bunch.
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Old 15th April 2014, 02:14 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
What, are they short on children and puppies?
Children and puppies are a little small to use as human (and canine) shields, don't you think?
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Old 15th April 2014, 02:16 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I was more trying to make the point that there is no "second amendment solution" to dealing with laws one does not like. There are courts and ballot boxes for that.
I'm not sure what people mean when they invoke "second amendment remedy" phrases. I'm torn between running like hell and attempting to engage in clarifying dialogue. (Hurling abuse at them is a third option, but not why I come to this website.)

"Do you mean, people should shoot cops who enforce unjust laws?" I'd like to hear an answer to that, granting in advance that laws can be unjust. Or sincerely construed as such.
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Old 15th April 2014, 02:18 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Even if they had done that (again there is no evidenc of that) that is the kind of thing the federal government does when you owe them a million dollars. Seizing assets goes well beyond bank accounts.
That is a really good point.

If the lease is a 10 year deal and expired in 1998, after 5 years of non payment, I wonder if it was Cliven who signed it in 1988 and 1978 or his father and then Cliven assumed it. Either way he has failed to live up to his end of the deal and faces legal forfeiture of his assets.
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Old 15th April 2014, 02:36 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by elbe View Post
Children and puppies are a little small to use as human (and canine) shields, don't you think?
Stitch them together into a vest.
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Old 15th April 2014, 02:38 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Particularly if the "will be eaten" applies to the contract signer and not his livestock.
Alferd Packer would agree to that.
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Old 15th April 2014, 02:40 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by SomedayGirl View Post
Is that the same Richard Mack who said, "“We were actually strategizing to put all the women up at the front. If they are going to start shooting, it’s going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZd61_9hofE

A real peach, that guy.
Wow! Why didn't Washington think of that strategy at Valley Forge!?

What scum, letting women die to make a PR stunt.
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Old 15th April 2014, 02:46 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
What's missing from this dramady is Bundy's lawyer. Where's the well-spoken guy in the nice suit, advocating the merits of his client's position?

I don't have much hope for the guy if he can't attract a lawyer to the bright lights of free publicity. Maybe his case really is that bad.
I do believe that he is a pro se litigant.

Which is probably why the courts have been so lenient with him.
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Old 15th April 2014, 03:05 PM   #232
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What surprises me is that the gubmint didn't just swoop down in the dead of night with their black helicopters and confiscate the cattle that way, like they've been doing for years anyway.
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Old 15th April 2014, 04:15 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by elbe View Post
Children and puppies are a little small to use as human (and canine) shields, don't you think?
At first glance, yes. But as with Captain America's shield, they can be thrown effectively.
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Old 15th April 2014, 04:19 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
Wow! Why didn't Washington think of that strategy at Valley Forge!?
There simply weren't enough television sets at the time to make a broadcast worthwhile.
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Old 15th April 2014, 05:10 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by elbe View Post
Children and puppies are a little small to use as human (and canine) shields, don't you think?
These are beef-fed kids. They are bigger than normal, and bullet proof.

Good to see that they have adopted tactics used by Hamas and Somali fighters and other well respected military organizations.
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Old 15th April 2014, 05:27 PM   #236
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This event reminds me of an old joke.

Guy looks at his friend, holding a cinder block.
Drops cinder block on his own foot.
"Damn! My foot hurts. You see how much my foot hurts!"

I think Jim Morrison wrote "Strange Days" for times like these.
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Old 15th April 2014, 09:33 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
Wow! Why didn't Washington think of that strategy at Valley Forge!?

What scum, letting women die to make a PR stunt.
And absurdly sexist. Women can fire and maintain arms just well as men can.
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Old 15th April 2014, 09:34 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post

Hah! Well, it's not as if we need more evidence that Mr. Bundy is ridiculously ignorant.

Originally Posted by marplots View Post
What's missing from this dramady is Bundy's lawyer.

Pretty sure his lawyer is a gun at this point.

Originally Posted by SomedayGirl View Post
Is that the same Richard Mack who said, "“We were actually strategizing to put all the women up at the front. If they are going to start shooting, it’s going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZd61_9hofE

A real peach, that guy.

Hmm... Wasn't there some group in the Middle East that the civilized world was condemning for using women and children as meat shields to deter counter-attacks?

Last edited by Cl1mh4224rd; 15th April 2014 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 15th April 2014, 10:06 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
Wow! Why didn't Washington think of that strategy at Valley Forge!?

What scum, letting women die to make a PR stunt.
Its an entirely rational military strategy given the situation they are in. The catch is that its one that modern governments are increasingly used to dealing with and have developed strategies to counter.
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Old 16th April 2014, 03:06 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
And absurdly sexist. Women can fire and maintain arms just well as men can.
Yes. Of course the strategy itself is based on the sexism of the public for being more concerned over a woman being shot than a man.
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