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Tags Cliven Bundy , militia incidents , Nevada incidents

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Old 17th April 2014, 11:10 PM   #321
Red Baron Farms
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Taylor Grazing Act (1934)

U.S. Grazing Service

No, it is not a thing. His family might have informally purchased rights from the local Indian tribe, way back when. It was not uncommon for ranchers to do that, but it would have had no legal standing.

From the Taylor Grazing act onward, grazing rights are leased. Leases last 10 years, and contain clauses allowing the BLM to make changes if the need arises. BLM made changes in 1993, so Bundy stopped paying. In 1998 the lease expired, which made it possible for someone else to pick it up. That someone else was Clark County.

Buying the lease and then intentionally not grazing cattle on it protected Desert tortoise habitat. This desert tortoise protection was done to compensate for the destruction of desert tortoise habitat caused by the growth of Las Vegas and other cities and towns in Clark County. The process was part of Clark County's Habitat Conservation Plan.
Do you have Clark County's Habitat Conservation plan? Does it include grazing? It would be hard to maintain a grassland habitat without grazing by large herbivores. The only 1/2 way decent option besides grazing is fire management. Even that is destructive if used too much. I would be very curious to see what Clark County proposes to use to fill the ecological niche formerly held by bison and other large herbivores if not cattle.
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Old 18th April 2014, 12:32 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by SomedayGirl View Post
Actually, I was wondering about this. Why would the government have even bothered to try rounding up the thousand head of Bundy cattle? The animals are trespassing on federal land and are little more than destructive vermin. Kill them as you would any other invasive pest species and leave them where they lay. The whole thing could have been be over in a couple days.
I'm not sure if it really is a good idea to have a lot of rotting cattle in the landscape.
Legally, they are still property, which means that due process is required and the court order only permits impounding the cattle. No idea if the BLM could have asked for permission to kill.
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Old 18th April 2014, 12:36 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Do you have Clark County's Habitat Conservation plan?
Does this help (see Library tab on left)?
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Old 18th April 2014, 01:56 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by gabeygoat View Post
Do you eat beef? Then you eat the product of similar to worse treated cows.
No actually I do not. I do however own cattle and mine are well treated and cared for. Cows are generally kept for breeding. Steers are sold for meat.
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Old 18th April 2014, 05:31 AM   #325
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Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher in clash with...

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Do you have Clark County's Habitat Conservation plan? Does it include grazing? It would be hard to maintain a grassland habitat without grazing by large herbivores. The only 1/2 way decent option besides grazing is fire management. Even that is destructive if used too much. I would be very curious to see what Clark County proposes to use to fill the ecological niche formerly held by bison and other large herbivores if not cattle.
I don't think that this is grassland habitat.

http://www.clarkcountynv.gov/Depts/d.../Ecosystem.pdf

The area is shown as mostly Mohave desert scrub. From one of the legal documents I recall it being classed as "ephemeral"

Edit: here are the grazing rules for ephemeral forage areas.

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medial...e.dat/AppF.pdf

Note the date: 1968. This was hardly a recent change.
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Last edited by Alferd_Packer; 18th April 2014 at 05:42 AM.
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Old 18th April 2014, 06:20 AM   #326
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The land where Bundy grazes his cattle never belonged to Bundy or the Bundy family. Yet almost all of the pro Bundy screeds imply that a rancher is being kicked off his property.

Endless variations on the same big lie.
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Old 18th April 2014, 06:31 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by 12AX7 View Post
Indeed.

This is good because the 'nutters are about due for a new hero; Koresh and Weaver need a break.
Originally Posted by Janadele View Post
...completely unconcerned with instigating a deadly confrontation like Waco or Ruby Ridge.


I'll never understand why so many R.winger gunnutters choose lunatics, criminals and idiots as their heroes. Koresh, Weaver, Nugent et al.
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Old 18th April 2014, 07:26 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by 12AX7 View Post


I'll never understand why so many R.winger gunnutters choose lunatics, criminals and idiots as their heroes. Koresh, Weaver, Nugent et al.
Not to mention the claim is that the BLM isn't afraid of instigating such a confrontation, but the protesters are the ones aiming guns at the BLM workers. Where did I put that hypocrisy meter?
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Old 18th April 2014, 07:42 AM   #329
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Reid labeled the Bundy supporters as domestic terrorists:

Originally Posted by Reid
The senate majority leader labeled those who defended the rancher against a Bureau of Land Management cattle roundup "domestic terrorists" at a Thursday evening question-and-answer session hosted by the Las Vegas Review-Journal.
Also, looks like he touched base on some of the other laws Bundy feels don't pertain to him:

Quote:
"He doesn’t pay his taxes," Reid said. "He doesn’t pay his fees. And he doesn’t follow the law. He continues to thumb his nose at authority.”
Link
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Old 18th April 2014, 07:44 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I'd like to pursue the question but first I need to know if those numbers are real or are free-range ************.
Oh, B absolutely. lol But as it turns out the numbers aren't great for pursuing the idea of rounding the trespassers up to recoup operational costs.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams....CattleAuctions

NV didn't have an auction report for last week so going with a nearby state that did, UT, it seems live cattle are going for $150 a head as I'm reading it. Keeping in mind we're talking about a government operation so the costs will be quite a bit higher than they would be for a private venture (better more expensive equipment, higher paid personnel, etc.), with that kind of auction price is there any way it could be financially a better choice to have fed agents locate, round up, contain, and transport the animals for sale than it would be to simply identify and shoot them? (The cattle, not the agents.)
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Old 18th April 2014, 08:01 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Shouldn't he be arrested for at the very least criminal menacing for pointing a gun at anybody not a unlawful threat to him? WTF?
I'm not familiar with the state laws of Nevada. In Florida, it would constitute an assault with a deadly weapon assuming there was a victim (someone on the other end of that barrel who thought they were being threatened. I'd certainly say I'd feel like my life was in jeopardy if I was on the other end of a gun being wielded by someone like that.

Assault definition:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/.../0784.011.html

Assault with a deadly weapon:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/.../0784.021.html
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Old 18th April 2014, 08:12 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by SomedayGirl View Post
Oh, B absolutely. lol But as it turns out the numbers aren't great for pursuing the idea of rounding the trespassers up to recoup operational costs.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams....CattleAuctions

NV didn't have an auction report for last week so going with a nearby state that did, UT, it seems live cattle are going for $150 a head as I'm reading it. Keeping in mind we're talking about a government operation so the costs will be quite a bit higher than they would be for a private venture (better more expensive equipment, higher paid personnel, etc.), with that kind of auction price is there any way it could be financially a better choice to have fed agents locate, round up, contain, and transport the animals for sale than it would be to simply identify and shoot them? (The cattle, not the agents.)
Live cattle are priced in cents per pound, not dollars per each.
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Old 18th April 2014, 08:14 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Live cattle are priced in cents per pound, not dollars per each.
Is there any truth to Bundy's claim that the heads of cattle were worth approximately $1,000 each? I don't feel that the number is that far off as I grew up around several farms, but I feel like it is a bit exaggerated.
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Old 18th April 2014, 08:21 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Live cattle are priced in cents per pound, not dollars per each.
So when the report says:

Slaughter Steers: 1,200 Head: Choice 2-3 1100-1300 lbs 147.00-150.00.
Dressed Basis Choice 2-3 600-900 lbs carcasses 237.00-240.00.

...you need to move the decimal over two places and multiply by pounds? This seems like an idiotic way to report pricing but I'm not a cattle rancher (even though I live in TX). Sometimes you run up against a common industry practice that doesn't make much sense to outsiders and this may be one of those times.
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Old 18th April 2014, 08:25 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by SomedayGirl View Post
So when the report says:

Slaughter Steers: 1,200 Head: Choice 2-3 1100-1300 lbs 147.00-150.00.
Dressed Basis Choice 2-3 600-900 lbs carcasses 237.00-240.00.

...you need to move the decimal over two places and multiply by pounds? This seems like an idiotic way to report pricing but I'm not a cattle rancher (even though I live in TX). Sometimes you run up against a common industry practice that doesn't make much sense to outsiders and this may be one of those times.
Did you forget to register? When I first moved to TX they gave me a ranch in the high desert, a horse, a 10-gallon hat, my own oil well and an AR-15.
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Old 18th April 2014, 08:27 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Is there any truth to Bundy's claim that the heads of cattle were worth approximately $1,000 each? I don't feel that the number is that far off as I grew up around several farms, but I feel like it is a bit exaggerated.
Considering the current price of beef and live cattle, $1,000 each is in the right ballpark.
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Old 18th April 2014, 08:36 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by SomedayGirl View Post
So when the report says:

Slaughter Steers: 1,200 Head: Choice 2-3 1100-1300 lbs 147.00-150.00.
Dressed Basis Choice 2-3 600-900 lbs carcasses 237.00-240.00.

...you need to move the decimal over two places and multiply by pounds? This seems like an idiotic way to report pricing but I'm not a cattle rancher (even though I live in TX). Sometimes you run up against a common industry practice that doesn't make much sense to outsiders and this may be one of those times.
Indeed this is one of those times. Based on the apparent sad shape of Bundy cows I estimate $500-$700 per head, calves half that at best, but bulls are priced differently and often worth $thousands.

I do have relatives in the cattle raising business.

Last edited by AlBell; 18th April 2014 at 08:38 AM. Reason: Add last sentence
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Old 18th April 2014, 08:37 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Did you forget to register? When I first moved to TX they gave me a ranch in the high desert, a horse, a 10-gallon hat, my own oil well and an AR-15.
And a farmer's daughter with a boob job. And a case of Dr Pepper.
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Old 18th April 2014, 08:38 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
And a farmer's daughter with a boob job. And a case of Dr Pepper.
Sadly, no longer Dublin.
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Old 18th April 2014, 08:42 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Did you forget to register? When I first moved to TX they gave me a ranch in the high desert, a horse, a 10-gallon hat, my own oil well and an AR-15.
Dude, what??? All they gave me was an unlimited supply of fire ants, eight months of summer, and a highway project that's been continuously ongoing since 1947.
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Old 18th April 2014, 08:42 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Do you have Clark County's Habitat Conservation plan? Does it include grazing? It would be hard to maintain a grassland habitat without grazing by large herbivores. The only 1/2 way decent option besides grazing is fire management. Even that is destructive if used too much. I would be very curious to see what Clark County proposes to use to fill the ecological niche formerly held by bison and other large herbivores if not cattle.
Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer View Post
I don't think that this is grassland habitat.

http://www.clarkcountynv.gov/Depts/d.../Ecosystem.pdf

The area is shown as mostly Mohave desert scrub. From one of the legal documents I recall it being classed as "ephemeral"

Edit: here are the grazing rules for ephemeral forage areas.

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medial...e.dat/AppF.pdf

Note the date: 1968. This was hardly a recent change.
As Packie said, it is desert scrub although in recent years much has converted to annual grassland. In pre-contact days there was very little grass at all. It would have been woody shrubs - creosote, bursage, Joshua tree, black brush, cholla and beaver-tail cactus, and yucca interspersed with bare ground (itself with bio/mineral crusts) and the occasional bunch grass (bush muhly, Indian rice-grass, and a few others). In this environment, cows browse more than they graze. These days there are annual, non-native grasses present, but those are only green for about six weeks a year, tops.

The Mojave desert is not fire adapted. Fire kills the native brush and promotes the non-native grass. The native brush types have fire return intervals ranging from centuries to 10,000 years or more - the bare ground prevented lightning strike fires from spreading. That changed with the arrival of the brome and other non-native annual grass species. The native species show very little ability to recover from fire. The annual grasses can support fire return intervals as short as three years, further ensure that the native flora never recolonizes.

The area would have had few large herbivores prior to the cattle. Bighorn sheep and mule deer were about it, limited to proximity to water sources. Large areas would have been essentially unavailable to these herbivores. There were no bison that I have ever heard of in the Mojave - not in the rock art, not in the historical record.

Last edited by crescent; 18th April 2014 at 08:45 AM.
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Old 18th April 2014, 08:46 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by SomedayGirl View Post
Dude, what??? All they gave me was an unlimited supply of fire ants, eight months of summer, and a highway project that's been continuously ongoing since 1947.
I shot the horse with the AR-15 to lure the fire ants, then doused them with oil and set the lot on fire.

They admittedly stumped me on the summers and the perpetual highway construction.
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Old 18th April 2014, 09:14 AM   #343
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The BLM impact statement for the removal of trespass cattle mentions that wild burros are present in the area.
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Old 18th April 2014, 09:19 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
The BLM impact statement for the removal of trespass cattle mentions that wild burros are present in the area.
Those are not native either, they were probably not present until sometime after the Old Spanish Trail came into use (Bundy's property is quite close to the OST, it might even straddle it, I'm not sure).
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Old 18th April 2014, 09:25 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by daenku32 View Post
I had an outright yelling fight with a coworker about this issue.

It quickly escalated to trident fight and I may need to lay low for a while.

That second sentence was a joke. But I did have to walk away and go use the exercise bike at work gym for about 15 minutes just to work out the steam. It was the first time in 15+ years of my experience at work that I actually cursed at my fellow coworker.

The absolutely ridiculousness of Fox News has gotten me to the point where I literally want to yell.
You're not the only one.

I have a knee-jerk conservative co-worker that's been all over this story, facts be damned, and since Bundy "made the feds back off" he likes this story even more.

The fact that Bundy lost in court twice is problematic for him though, as well as Bundy ignoring the Nevada Constitution as well, but he's convinced BLM is up to no good.
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Old 18th April 2014, 09:55 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
The BLM impact statement for the removal of trespass cattle mentions that wild burros are present in the area.
Illegal immigrant burros or good old-fashioned, hard working American burros?
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Old 18th April 2014, 10:01 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
You're not the only one.

I have a knee-jerk conservative co-worker that's been all over this story, facts be damned, and since Bundy "made the feds back off" he likes this story even more.

The fact that Bundy lost in court twice is problematic for him though, as well as Bundy ignoring the Nevada Constitution as well, but he's convinced BLM is up to no good.
In many ways the storyline (at least the reshaped narrative) gives substance to ongoing suspicions about federal authority and misuse of it. It makes concrete some of the nebulous conspiracy stuff and shows (to this crowd) the true colors of the government. I accept at face value their outrage at the perceived tyranny.

Mix that with the cowboy ideals of freedom and individualism. Bake at Nevada desert temperatures for a week or two and I'm glad the BLM backed off. Time is their ally. The reactionary yahoos want confrontation and crisis. It's their lifeblood and reason for coming. Without the evil government, the exercise is pointless - which from my point of view, is exactly what the matter actually is: pointless.
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Old 18th April 2014, 10:15 AM   #348
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The push back I am seeing now is that the constitution forbids the federal government from owning land more than 10 square miles because of Article 1 section 8,

Quote:
To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square)...snip
Most of you will be familiar with the concept of quote mining and as I understand it Bundy uses section 8 in his argument that the federal government can not own the land in Nevada because it exceeds 10 square miles.

The full portion of section 8 makes it clear that the constitution is referring to the establishment of a federal capitol from which to run the government and, provided state consent, federal lands within states.

Quote:
To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
The other section the extremists are arguing about is Article IV section 3 clause 2

Quote:
The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.
This is being interpreted by people like this blog to mean that the US government can not actually own land... or something. He appears to combine articles I and IV for his convenience and blame the whole thing on "corrupt federal judges" without providing any evidence.

I think this is the heart of Bundy's claims.
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Last edited by Biscuit; 18th April 2014 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 18th April 2014, 10:23 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
As Packie said, it is desert scrub although in recent years much has converted to annual grassland. In pre-contact days there was very little grass at all. It would have been woody shrubs - creosote, bursage, Joshua tree, black brush, cholla and beaver-tail cactus, and yucca interspersed with bare ground (itself with bio/mineral crusts) and the occasional bunch grass (bush muhly, Indian rice-grass, and a few others). In this environment, cows browse more than they graze. These days there are annual, non-native grasses present, but those are only green for about six weeks a year, tops.

The Mojave desert is not fire adapted. Fire kills the native brush and promotes the non-native grass. The native brush types have fire return intervals ranging from centuries to 10,000 years or more - the bare ground prevented lightning strike fires from spreading. That changed with the arrival of the brome and other non-native annual grass species. The native species show very little ability to recover from fire. The annual grasses can support fire return intervals as short as three years, further ensure that the native flora never recolonizes.

The area would have had few large herbivores prior to the cattle. Bighorn sheep and mule deer were about it, limited to proximity to water sources. Large areas would have been essentially unavailable to these herbivores. There were no bison that I have ever heard of in the Mojave - not in the rock art, not in the historical record.
The reason I asked is that there are large areas of land in the west that were dry grasslands and reverted to desert scrub and sagebrush when the settlers exterminated the bison over most of their range. It seems strange to me that Bundy's ancestors "way back when" would have actually purchased grazing rights from the Native American Indians if the area in question was always sagebrush. Of course the grazing pattern of those bison herds was strongly migratory. That's different than cattle unless they are herded by cowboys and forced to move. Leaving them in one place is as destructive as removing them entirely. You must mob them up and move them daily.

I wish I was more familiar with that specific area Bundy is grazing. Because it may have always been sagebrush and desert scrub, or it may have been an area that reverted to that after the herds were hunted out and/or overgrazed by cattle. I really don't know for sure. I do know that the Mojave as well as the Sonoran have expanded tremendously due to mismanagement and/or human influence. And yes, Bison were in pretty much all that area, even if only migrating through certain areas periodically.

I am not letting Bundy off the hook here BTW. Even if the area was dry grassland, it has to be grazed in a very precise way or overgrazing occurs and the perennial grasses will die quickly. The methods and scientific understanding for grazing brittle areas like that are very new. I am just curious to figure out if this really always was desert scrub, or was it dry grassland that reverted to scrub?
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Old 18th April 2014, 10:54 AM   #350
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The Spanish passed through this area in the 1700's - no mention of bison. The Mormons began settling this far south in the 1850's and picked it up a notch when the Civil war started - no mention of Bison. No bison in the rock art - deer, bighorn, and rabbits are frequently represent in the rock art, though. There were bison further north, but there is nothing in the record to indicate their presence this far into the Mojave.

I don't know if Bundy's ancestors purchased grazing rights from the Indians or not - I know some ranchers did that, but not all. Bundy's ancestors might not have grazed right away - their base property is lowland, next to the Virgin river, they might have been primarily farmers who ran a few cattle on the side.

We know that the creosote and blackbrush hereabouts became established about 10,000 years ago. Creosote is clonal, and many individuals show indication that they have been cloning asexually for that long (although they produce viable seed as well). Blackbrush growth patterns are indicative of the same thing. American Indian roasting middens indicate that the agave has been a staple food source for several thousand years.
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Old 18th April 2014, 11:06 AM   #351
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The enviormental issues are important, but the main point is simply that Bundy was grazing his cattle on land he did not own and had no legal right to do so.Open and shut case.
The irony is if Nevada did own the land, I am betting they would also charge for grazing cattle on the State land, and Bundy would deny the rights of Nevada to the land and say the counry has the only legal rights....
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Old 18th April 2014, 11:16 AM   #352
Red Baron Farms
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The Spanish passed through this area in the 1700's - no mention of bison. The Mormons began settling this far south in the 1850's and picked it up a notch when the Civil war started - no mention of Bison. No bison in the rock art - deer, bighorn, and rabbits are frequently represent in the rock art, though. There were bison further north, but there is nothing in the record to indicate their presence this far into the Mojave.

I don't know if Bundy's ancestors purchased grazing rights from the Indians or not - I know some ranchers did that, but not all. Bundy's ancestors might not have grazed right away - their base property is lowland, next to the Virgin river, they might have been primarily farmers who ran a few cattle on the side.

We know that the creosote and blackbrush hereabouts became established about 10,000 years ago. Creosote is clonal, and many individuals show indication that they have been cloning asexually for that long (although they produce viable seed as well). Blackbrush growth patterns are indicative of the same thing. American Indian roasting middens indicate that the agave has been a staple food source for several thousand years.
Interesting. That 10,000 year mark coincides with the first human caused mass extinction of mega fauna, by early native Americans. Not the second mass extinction caused by white settlers. Sounds like, if you are correct, that if any grazing should be done at all, it should be sheep, not cattle. They are a much closer approximation of the mule deer and big horn sheep grazing/browsing patterns. If shepherded correctly, probably a better bet for restoring the ecosystem health. Once the niche is filled and the ecosystem recovers, the native wildlife will return in large numbers, or can be reintroduced.
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The enviormental issues are important, but the main point is simply that Bundy was grazing his cattle on land he did not own and had no legal right to do so.Open and shut case.
The irony is if Nevada did own the land, I am betting they would also charge for grazing cattle on the State land, and Bundy would deny the rights of Nevada to the land and say the counry has the only legal rights....
I disagree entirely. You may prefer to demonize one side while deifying the other, but in the end, the only important thing is doing what's right for environment and the public both. If that includes grazing, then either let him graze or find someone else to do it. I suspect it does include grazing since every biome on the planet evolved with some form of animal grazing, but likely in a way not being done by Bundy. Still not 100% sure on that.
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Old 18th April 2014, 11:18 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The enviormental issues are important, but the main point is simply that Bundy was grazing his cattle on land he did not own and had no legal right to do so.Open and shut case.
The irony is if Nevada did own the land, I am betting they would also charge for grazing cattle on the State land, and Bundy would deny the rights of Nevada to the land and say the counry has the only legal rights....
Open and shut as far as whether he had any legal right use the lands. To me the dispute is more in the way it was handled by authorities. Didn't they have other options. Could they have put a lien on Bundy's property (the cattle) that would be collected if they tried to sell them,freeze bank accounts or some other less confrontational way.
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Old 18th April 2014, 11:46 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Open and shut as far as whether he had any legal right use the lands. To me the dispute is more in the way it was handled by authorities. Didn't they have other options. Could they have put a lien on Bundy's property (the cattle) that would be collected if they tried to sell them,freeze bank accounts or some other less confrontational way.
It is NOT an open and shut case. This is the United States of America. You know? The nation of the people, by the people, for the people? When the government forgets that, it is our civic responsibility to remind them. We don't need lawyers or politicians or some random arbitrary fee deciding if he should graze those lands, we need scientists, ecologists, and range specialists determining when and if it is appropriate. When and if it is appropriate, then have the government work with the ranchers, not bully them like some dictatorship.
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Old 18th April 2014, 11:52 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
It is NOT an open and shut case. This is the United States of America. You know? The nation of the people, by the people, for the people? When the government forgets that, it is our civic responsibility to remind them. We don't need lawyers or politicians deciding if he should graze those lands, we need scientists, ecologists, and range specialists determining when and if it is appropriate. When and if it is appropriate, then have the government work with the ranchers, not bully them like some dictatorship.
He could have kept grazing those lands to his hearts content had he simple honored the lease he signed his own name to. He is the reason he can not graze on those lands because he violated the terms of his lease. It is open and shut. The only bully is Cliven Bundy.

This has nothing to do with the pre-amble of the U.S. constitution.
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Old 18th April 2014, 12:01 PM   #356
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Cliven Bundy isn't standing up for any noble cause. He is standing up for himself and his pocket book.

Quote:
The problem with Bundy’s stance is that he has no higher end in this fight than his own interests. Though it’s true that the federal government’s takeover of Nevada land is decidedly frustrating to many, there are other methods of protest—less flashy and attention grabbing, perhaps, but methods which appeal to both parties and grasp the importance of compromise and persuasion. But Bundy is not interested in such methods. Rather than using the avenues and pathways presented to him, Bundy has staunchly declared his own law and allegiances.

Unfortunately, reality doesn’t work this way. If only it did—we could rebel for paying stupid taxes, refuse to ever attend jury duty, sell whatever we want on the streets without a license. Maybe our world would be better for it—or maybe it would become chaotic and anarchical, characterized by a tyrannical majority that insists on whatever it wills for its own good.

We can sympathize with Bundy. But we should also remind him that true patriots pick their battles wisely — and they know when to concede.
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Old 18th April 2014, 12:02 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I imagine he would say that he is immune from prosecution because Second Amendment.

Beyond that, I have no idea.
Charges being discussed on the news are crossing state lines with a firearm with the intent to obstruct federal marshals, intent to and obstructing federal marshals. The right to own a gun doesn't give you the right to pull it on the cops. Calling yourself a well armed militia doesn't give you the right to use that militia against federal agents or any police for that matter.

I do hope they took pictures and are IDing these folks to later arrest when they get home. I'm sorry but I don't think you have the right to use your guns because you didn't like the court's outcome.

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Old 18th April 2014, 12:09 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Open and shut as far as whether he had any legal right use the lands. To me the dispute is more in the way it was handled by authorities. Didn't they have other options. Could they have put a lien on Bundy's property (the cattle) that would be collected if they tried to sell them,freeze bank accounts or some other less confrontational way.
The court order said something to the effect, pay up or the cattle will be seized. The cattle that were being seized were on federal lands, it's not like they went to his ranch and took them out of the barn.

I don't think the feds were wrong to not anticipate a crowd of extremist thugs coming from distant locations showing up with guns.

The made a wise choice to retreat and look at other options. I hope doing nothing is not one of those options they choose but I doubt it will be.
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Old 18th April 2014, 12:15 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
He could have kept grazing those lands to his hearts content had he simple honored the lease he signed his own name to. He is the reason he can not graze on those lands because he violated the terms of his lease. It is open and shut. The only bully is Cliven Bundy.

This has nothing to do with the pre-amble of the U.S. constitution.
It is my understanding that he did pay the lease...up until he made a protest in the way BLM made changes in 1993. (eta..in the middle of his lease BTW) Considering BLMs track record, those changes could have just as easily been bad as good. I don't know. I do know that when Clark County picked up the lease and decided all grazing was bad, very very unlikely to be a science based decision. More likely the exact opposite of what is needed for habitat restoration. As I have repeated many times. I am not entirely sure the exact management needed for that land. I am not familiar enough with that precise location to say for sure. But I can say with confidence that the old idea of simply resting the land and removing everything, and letting nature take it's course is scientifically proven wrong in the overwhelming majority of cases. Over resting land is just as destructive or more so than over grazing it. Sure you get a 1 or 2 year bump in vegetation, but then the biome collapses. It is especially critical in drylands.
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Old 18th April 2014, 12:22 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
Cliven Bundy isn't standing up for any noble cause. He is standing up for himself and his pocket book.



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Actually, Bundy is screwed.

Sure the BLM can't round up his cattle and sell them on the market.

But neither can he.

How many years have those cattle been running wild out there?
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