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Tags Cliven Bundy , Freeman on the Land , militia incidents , Oregon incidents

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Old 5th January 2016, 08:20 AM   #361
Biscuit
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
VanilliaISIS sent out the following message as to what they need:

--Things we could use:
cold weather socks
snacks
energy drinks
equipment for cold weather
snow camo
gear
anything you think will help.--

Great planning ****tards.

Someone tweeted: You guys are like a 10 year old who planned on running away with a jar of peanut butter and a sleeve of Ritz.
They really didn't think this through. We should send them burkas to keep warm, Korans to read, and hummus to eat. Jackets and sweaters with Obama's face all over them.

Why do they need snow camo? We know where they are.

I think we have a pretty clear cut case of seditious conspiracy.

Quote:
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
The government can not allow this to be swept under the rug like they did at the Bundy ranch. So far no one has been hurt but if these guys aren't arrested and charged after giving up their occupation in search of lunchables this will keep happening and someone will get hurt.
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Old 5th January 2016, 08:21 AM   #362
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These guys are already falling out of the news cycle. They need some death to get back to the top.

The best way to get these fellas out of the building is let leak there is going to be a drone strike. They'll scurry like rats, just like Bunkerville. Oh, better still, wait a couple days and they'll create the rumor themselves.

I wouldn't mind if these folks took over a couple of buildings in the middle of nowhere. It keeps them out of trouble, out of sight, on their own dime.
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Old 5th January 2016, 08:24 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Also: Who here is surprised by this?
For a bunch of people who work for everything they have, they seem to be very devoted to government handouts.
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Old 5th January 2016, 08:24 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
VanilliaISIS sent out the following message as to what they need:

--Things we could use:
cold weather socks
snacks
energy drinks
equipment for cold weather
snow camo
gear
anything you think will help.--

Great planning ****tards.

Someone tweeted: You guys are like a 10 year old who planned on running away with a jar of peanut butter and a sleeve of Ritz.

Harney County is the size of Massachusetts. County law enforcement consists of the sheriff's office, with half a dozen people.

The Malheur NWR headquarters is five miles east of Oregon 205 and thirteen miles west of Oregon 78. There is only one paved road giving access to the site. The authorities might have to keep that road open to the east of Voltage, Oregon (population approximately zero), but there is no reason to keep that road open between Oregon 205 and Voltage so long as the Malheur NWR headquarters site remains occupied.

These geniuses have placed themselves under voluntary house arrest. It may well be cheaper for the authorities to keep them there than to incarcerate them in a more conventional jail or prison.
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Old 5th January 2016, 09:05 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
There was a reporter who was allowed access and took pictures for her tweet stream. One picture was of their 'supply depot' and it was pathetic, like someone grabbed the extra sleeping bag in the hall and grabbed the boxes of food in the top pantry cabinet that rarely get used and picked up a couple bags of chips on the way over to the building.
I don't see why it matters much if the road is not blocked. They can resupply at any time. People can bring them whatever they ask for. Some guys could even go home for a meatloaf dinner and come back the next day.

Their list of "needs" might be more like the things that they didn't get for Christmas and now is the chance to get that stuff for free.
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Old 5th January 2016, 09:16 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I don't see why it matters much if the road is not blocked. They can resupply at any time. People can bring them whatever they ask for. Some guys could even go home for a meatloaf dinner and come back the next day.

Their list of "needs" might be more like the things that they didn't get for Christmas and now is the chance to get that stuff for free.
Could be.
It is just that most appear to be from other states and possible broke.
Sovereign Citizens tend to have trouble with gas money.
One of the reasons there are so few there.
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Old 5th January 2016, 09:18 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
I think we have a pretty clear cut case of seditious conspiracy.

Quote:
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

The government can not allow this to be swept under the rug like they did at the Bundy ranch. So far no one has been hurt but if these guys aren't arrested and charged after giving up their occupation in search of lunchables this will keep happening and someone will get hurt.
I'm not so sure that it is bona fide sedition, nor is it bona fide terrorism. I still think that it looks like a bona fide occupy protest.

CNN says that they have narrowed their demands to two. The occupation will end when...

1. The Hammonds are freed.
2. The Federal government gives up control of the Malheur National Forest.

The definition of sedition you cited speaks of using force for certain demands. These guys aren't using force, and their blustery threat that they will shoot back if fired upon isn't bona fide force either.

I'm not defending them and what they are doing but these are my opinions.
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Old 5th January 2016, 09:18 AM   #368
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http://twitter.com/amandapeacher/sta...007232/photo/1

Kookbreaker, I agree.
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Old 5th January 2016, 09:27 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm not so sure that it is bona fide sedition, nor is it bona fide terrorism. I still think that it looks like a bona fide occupy protest.

CNN says that they have narrowed their demands to two. The occupation will end when...

1. The Hammonds are freed.
2. The Federal government gives up control of the Malheur National Forest.

The definition of sedition you cited speaks of using force for certain demands. These guys aren't using force, and their blustery threat that they will shoot back if fired upon isn't bona fide force either.

I'm not defending them and what they are doing but these are my opinions.
So you think if law enforcement just walks in, guns holstered, and says "you're all under arrest" , they'll all put down their guns and go quietly?
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Old 5th January 2016, 09:29 AM   #370
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Perhaps due to federal inaction, it appears that vigilantes are preparing to retake the refuge.

Quote:
The nearby town of Burns has seen a rapid influx of birders who are determined to eject the illegal occupiers. The birders possess a number of advantages when it comes to combat in open terrain, according to those familiar with the hobby.

“They are masters of disguise who know how to blend into the outdoor environment, whereas the enemy, with their pickups, massive guns, and loud obnoxious personalities, tend to stick out like a sore thumb.”

The birders are also exceptionally skilled at spotting the enemy first so they will have the full advantage of surprise, and their uniform of loose fitting garments and comfortable walking shoes means they are quick and light on their feet, much like the Viet Cong during the Vietnam war. They are also equally ruthless when pushed.

“Just try referring to them as bird watchers instead of birders and see what happens. I guarantee that you will never do it again.”
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Old 5th January 2016, 09:38 AM   #371
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I hope this happens, but I bet they will burn the building down in an accident soon after.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...-power-cut-off
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Old 5th January 2016, 09:42 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It isn't a centralized power argument, it is a sovereignty argument. I would be equally upset if I found out the European Union actually owned 50% of Croatia as terms for entry. It would offend our ideas of Croatian dignity.
Bob, I see that you're a mystic. You sup on Great Truths that we -- alas! -- lesser mortals can't swallow.

You should publish.
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Old 5th January 2016, 09:51 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Finster View Post
So you think if law enforcement just walks in, guns holstered, and says "you're all under arrest" , they'll all put down their guns and go quietly?
Rule of So.
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Old 5th January 2016, 09:53 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Also: Who here is surprised by this?
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
For a bunch of people who work for everything they have, they seem to be very devoted to government handouts.
Getting an SBA loan guarantee is pretty low on the "handouts" menu. Almost as bad as saying they drove on government-provided roads to get to the park.

I'd be the first to call hypocrite, but not based on this little factoid. Surely there are better things to illustrate his ugly character traits? Like, for example, what he actually says.
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Old 5th January 2016, 09:54 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Toke View Post
Could be.
It is just that most appear to be from other states and possible broke.
Sovereign Citizens tend to have trouble with gas money.
One of the reasons there are so few there.
Well trouble getting people to accept the money they printed in exchange for gas anyway.
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Old 5th January 2016, 09:55 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm not so sure that it is bona fide sedition, nor is it bona fide terrorism. I still think that it looks like a bona fide occupy protest.
So that is what sit ins needed, guns to kill anyone who challenged them. Imagine the selma march if they had the capability to shoot back when they tried to stop them.
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Old 5th January 2016, 09:57 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Getting an SBA loan guarantee is pretty low on the "handouts" menu. Almost as bad as saying they drove on government-provided roads to get to the park.

I'd be the first to call hypocrite, but not based on this little factoid. Surely there are better things to illustrate his ugly character traits? Like, for example, what he actually says.
Well getting grazing at 15% of the market rate should be considered a handout, even if you don't really have to pay.
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:02 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So that is what sit ins needed, guns to kill anyone who challenged them. Imagine the selma march if they had the capability to shoot back when they tried to stop them.
Rule of So.
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:05 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Rule of So.
It would really have helped everything. All protesters need to be armed and willing to kill law enforcement officials who get in their way.
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:16 AM   #380
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:16 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Getting an SBA loan guarantee is pretty low on the "handouts" menu. Almost as bad as saying they drove on government-provided roads to get to the park.

I'd be the first to call hypocrite, but not based on this little factoid. Surely there are better things to illustrate his ugly character traits? Like, for example, what he actually says.
Umm, no. Getting an SBA loan guarantee may not be the hardest thing out there but it is a damn sight easier than just driving on a public road.
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:21 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Rule of So.
Wow, what a brilliant, clever and nuanced answer.

Without the so, because apparently that makes a huge difference -

Do you think if law enforcement just walks in, guns holstered, and says "you're all under arrest" , they'll all put down their guns and go quietly?

If not, what do you think would happen and how does that fit with it being a "bona fide occupy protest"?
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:31 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm not so sure that it is bona fide sedition, nor is it bona fide terrorism. I still think that it looks like a bona fide occupy protest.

CNN says that they have narrowed their demands to two. The occupation will end when...

1. The Hammonds are freed.
2. The Federal government gives up control of the Malheur National Forest.

The definition of sedition you cited speaks of using force for certain demands. These guys aren't using force, and their blustery threat that they will shoot back if fired upon isn't bona fide force either.

I'm not defending them and what they are doing but these are my opinions.
I think it is.

Quote:
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
They are attempting to use force to free the Hammonds thus preventing the execution of a law of the united states.

They used force to take over a federal building and are refusing to leave, threatening violence if anyone tries to make them leave. Just because no one was there to stop them from occupying it doesn't mean it wasn't taken by force. They have no right to be there. They have no right to stay there.

Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
I hope this happens, but I bet they will burn the building down in an accident soon after.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...-power-cut-off
I was going to post to a similar article. Over the weekend they stated they had gas generators if the power were to be shut off. Hopefully they use them indoors without ventilation.
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:31 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Finster View Post
Wow, what a brilliant, clever and nuanced answer.

Without the so, because apparently that makes a huge difference -

Do you think if law enforcement just walks in, guns holstered, and says "you're all under arrest" , they'll all put down their guns and go quietly?

If not, what do you think would happen and how does that fit with it being a "bona fide occupy protest"?
1. It presumes actions that need not follow
2. It assumes a standard by which criminals in a bank surrounded by SWAT would be considered seditious.
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:32 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Umm, no. Getting an SBA loan guarantee may not be the hardest thing out there but it is a damn sight easier than just driving on a public road.
You know you have to pay the loan back, right? Any savings comes from interest rates - with a guarantee, I can get an interest rate or loan I might not be able to without it. On the other hand, driving on publicly built and maintained roads gives me immediate benefits.

The two are not so far apart as one might imagine on the basis of financial rewards.
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:33 AM   #386
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I'll say they sure didn't bring much food but maybe they were hoping to live on all the flags they brought. There seems to be no shortage of those. Flag soup anyone?
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:34 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Finster View Post
Do you think if law enforcement just walks in, guns holstered, and says "you're all under arrest" , they'll all put down their guns and go quietly?
I think this is very likely to happen. I hope it does.
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:34 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
1. It presumes actions that need not follow
2. It assumes a standard by which criminals in a bank surrounded by SWAT would be considered seditious.
Banks are not federal property.
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:35 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
1. It presumes actions that need not follow
2. It assumes a standard by which criminals in a bank surrounded by SWAT would be considered seditious.
The thing is that it comes down to motives. Most bank robbers are not doing it to advance a political agenda contrary to the US government.
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:41 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Sama View Post
What are the protesters’ demands?

$5 million in cash and safe passage to 1874.
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:46 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I think this is very likely to happen. I hope it does.
I hope so too and maybe they will. I don't know about very likely but it's certainly possible they may not follow through if confronted but they have made it clear that their intent is not to surrender peacefully.
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:48 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Finster View Post
Wow, what a brilliant, clever and nuanced answer.

Without the so, because apparently that makes a huge difference -

Do you think if law enforcement just walks in, guns holstered, and says "you're all under arrest" , they'll all put down their guns and go quietly?

If not, what do you think would happen and how does that fit with it being a "bona fide occupy protest"?
You created a strawman and I'm not much interested in biting on it. The Feds are not going to walk in with holstered guns and announce arrests. They aren't going to do that. The closest thing that they might do (but won't) is send in an unarmed negotiator.

IMO, the guns carried by these protesters are symbols. They are not going to shoot first but they don't mind if you think that they will shoot first. They cannot defeat the government with their armament and their numbers and they know that. The guns are primarily their symbols of unity amongst themselves. A gun on the hip is firstly meant to be seen by their fellow protesters (we are on the same page) and secondarily meant to be seen by others (we mean business). It's posturing, puffery, bluster and role playing. They won't pull the trigger unless somebody else does it first.
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:55 AM   #393
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Authorities plan to cut off power to militia at occupied Oregon refuge. “After they shut off the power, they’ll kill the phone service,” the government official added. “Then they’ll block all the roads so that all those guys have a long, lonely winter to think about what they’ve done.”
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:56 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Getting an SBA loan guarantee is pretty low on the "handouts" menu. Almost as bad as saying they drove on government-provided roads to get to the park.

I'd be the first to call hypocrite, but not based on this little factoid. Surely there are better things to illustrate his ugly character traits? Like, for example, what he actually says.
They did drive on government provided roads to a government provided building. And no doubt they are not paying for the water and power there.

As for a loan guarantee, it still requires the government take the risk, probably meaning a lower interest loan for Bundy.

Come on, the Bundy family owes the government millions for letting Bundy cattle graze on public lands, which was earlier pointed out costs taxpayers more than the fees cover.

These guys, like so many like them, are blind to their use of tax funded goods and services all the while stamping their ignorant feet crying boo-hoo, I can't act like all that publicly owned land is mine for the taking.
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:57 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
Authorities plan to cut off power to militia at occupied Oregon refuge. “After they shut off the power, they’ll kill the phone service,” the government official added. “Then they’ll block all the roads so that all those guys have a long, lonely winter to think about what they’ve done.”
They should have done that already.
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Old 5th January 2016, 10:58 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You created a strawman and I'm not much interested in biting on it. The Feds are not going to walk in with holstered guns and announce arrests. They aren't going to do that. The closest thing that they might do (but won't) is send in an unarmed negotiator.

IMO, the guns carried by these protesters are symbols. They are not going to shoot first but they don't mind if you think that they will shoot first. They cannot defeat the government with their armament and their numbers and they know that. The guns are primarily their symbols of unity amongst themselves. A gun on the hip is firstly meant to be seen by their fellow protesters (we are on the same page) and secondarily meant to be seen by others (we mean business). It's posturing, puffery, bluster and role playing. They won't pull the trigger unless somebody else does it first.
A year and a half ago, some of those guns were aimed squarely at federal employees. That was not symbolic, it was a flat out overt threat to the lives of federal law enforcement who were carrying out court orders. The guy who claims he positioned the snipers that day is at the refuge.

It might symbolic now that the Oath Keepers and Militia are mostly not supporting the Bundistanis this time around, leaving the Bundistanis potentially outgunned. But if they had the numbers, those guns would be for more than just show - and I am pretty sure they expected much more support than they have been getting.

They may act relaxed right now, but there is no federal law enforcement in sight. Were a federal presence to appear, posture and readiness would become very different.

Last edited by crescent; 5th January 2016 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 5th January 2016, 11:04 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
They did drive on government provided roads to a government provided building. And no doubt they are not paying for the water and power there.

As for a loan guarantee, it still requires the government take the risk, probably meaning a lower interest loan for Bundy.
The article notes that government-backed SBA loans are given for businesses that have trouble securing private loans.

Now, I suspect that this is not exactly complete. I suspect that businesses get SBA loans because a) they qualify, and b) they are CHEAPER than private loans would be. If a bank will lend you money at 8% for an unsecured loan, but you can get it at 4% through the SBA, of course you go through the SBA. But you aren't doing it because you can't get private funding, you are doing it because it's cheaper through the government program.

But ultimately, it means, yes, you are accepting government assistance.
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Old 5th January 2016, 11:06 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You created a strawman and I'm not much interested in biting on it. The Feds are not going to walk in with holstered guns and announce arrests. They aren't going to do that. The closest thing that they might do (but won't) is send in an unarmed negotiator.

IMO, the guns carried by these protesters are symbols. They are not going to shoot first but they don't mind if you think that they will shoot first. They cannot defeat the government with their armament and their numbers and they know that. The guns are primarily their symbols of unity amongst themselves. A gun on the hip is firstly meant to be seen by their fellow protesters (we are on the same page) and secondarily meant to be seen by others (we mean business). It's posturing, puffery, bluster and role playing. They won't pull the trigger unless somebody else does it first.
That's why armed robbery is a good comparison. "Just give us what we want and nobody gets hurt." Nobody has to pull the trigger for it to be considered a violent crime and a threat to the public.

How many years in prison is typical for armed robbery on US federal land?
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Old 5th January 2016, 11:08 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You created a strawman and I'm not much interested in biting on it. The Feds are not going to walk in with holstered guns and announce arrests. They aren't going to do that. The closest thing that they might do (but won't) is send in an unarmed negotiator.

IMO, the guns carried by these protesters are symbols. They are not going to shoot first but they don't mind if you think that they will shoot first. They cannot defeat the government with their armament and their numbers and they know that. The guns are primarily their symbols of unity amongst themselves. A gun on the hip is firstly meant to be seen by their fellow protesters (we are on the same page) and secondarily meant to be seen by others (we mean business). It's posturing, puffery, bluster and role playing. They won't pull the trigger unless somebody else does it first.
How is that a strawman? That's exactly what they would do for a non-violent sit-in or occupy protest, if this is equivalent why not handle it the same way? If there is no threat of violence why on earth would they need a negotiator?

Is it really your position that using weapons to intimidate doesn't count as using force unless you shoot first?

If you rob someone at gunpoint is it not using force unless you shoot them?
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Old 5th January 2016, 11:09 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
They did drive on government provided roads to a government provided building. And no doubt they are not paying for the water and power there.

As for a loan guarantee, it still requires the government take the risk, probably meaning a lower interest loan for Bundy.
Correct.

Quote:
Come on, the Bundy family owes the government millions for letting Bundy cattle graze on public lands, which was earlier pointed out costs taxpayers more than the fees cover.
Isn't that part of their dispute, that the government doesn't (or shouldn't) have the right to charge for land use? From their point of view it wouldn't be government largess they are accepting, but some right they have already.

It's only hypocritical if I disagree with their interpretation. (Which I do.)
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