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Tags Cliven Bundy , Freeman on the Land , militia incidents , Oregon incidents

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Old 3rd January 2016, 09:51 AM   #41
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by ehcks View Post
A treehugger chains themselves to a tree and says "If you cut this down, it could kill me."

These guys broke into a building and are saying "If you try to remove me, I will kill you."

I do think there's a difference. Is it too subtle?
I read that they are saying "If you shoot at us, we will shoot back". They are saying that guns are for self defense in the event that authorities start shooting.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 09:55 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
You think people showing up with guns and promising to never leave without a fight unless the government does exactly what they want in contravention of law and public will isn't terrorism?
I'm the kind of guy who wants to reserve the term terrorism for acts of violence in certain contexts. At this point, it's an occupy protest as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 09:57 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I read that they are saying "If you shoot at us, we will shoot back". They are saying that guns are for self defense in the event that authorities start shooting.
What could possibly go wrong.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 09:58 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
All occupying protesters say the same thing. Treehuggers promise to never leave either.

This is Rancher Lives Matter and it's not much different than Black Lives Matter.
They are doing this in advocacy of breaking a good and just law. They aren't trying to make the world a just place they want to be able to rape land that isn't theirs.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is the reason i equated it to federal abuse of indigenous peoples. The feds commit a number of abuses against them that they ostensibly have the right to do. Governments generally have their powers limited by required equitible treatment of all parties. Mass ownership of western states is inheritly inequitable treatment of semi sovereign states.
How is it in anyway inequitable? They declared the land a wildlife preserve as they should have. Better to have it preserved and managed by the Feds than in the hands of private landowners. What is wrong with this?

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Governments, just ones anyway, do not get the ability to function as private property owners. The choice was form western states and give up the land and form new sovereigns, or don't form them. The choice they made violates the principles of federalism.
How do you justify the highlighted? They do have that right. Especially, as in this case, to preserve land for wildlife.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:01 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
They are doing this in advocacy of breaking a good and just law. They aren't trying to make the world a just place they want to be able to rape land that isn't theirs.
I'm not saying I agree with the ranchers and what they want. I'm saying what they are doing isn't terrorism.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:06 AM   #46
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So...what'll happen when people show up to work in the morning?
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:07 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm not saying I agree with the ranchers and what they want. I'm saying what they are doing isn't terrorism.
They dug in with lots of guns saying they'll kill anyone that tries to prevent them from getting their way. That sure sounds like bullying with terror to me.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:08 AM   #48
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IMO, they are not going to show up to work tomorrow because their work place is occupied by protesters.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:09 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
They dug in with lots of guns saying they'll kill anyone that tries to prevent them from getting their way. That sure sounds like bullying with terror to me.
I read a different quote. They said that they will shoot back if shot at.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:11 AM   #50
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So this bunch of private Oregoneans doesn't recognize and respect the property, laws and jurisdiction of the federals.

Do they recognize and respect the State of Oregon?
What is the position of the State of Oregon here on the relevant issues? The OR governor, the OR legislature, the OR courts, the OR population other than the occupiers?
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:13 AM   #51
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At first the protesters said they had about 150 guys at the building. Then they stopped talking about numbers. Reporters say only about a dozen cars are parked there.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:17 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Governments, just ones anyway, do not get the ability to function as private property owners.
Really? Is this an internationally-recognised standard?
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:17 AM   #53
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I just posted this to the SGU forum on the same topic:



Bear in mind that one can attempt to explain, without in any way meaning to justify.

For High School speech class, I had to memorize the following:

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace - but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

This is the closing paragraph of Patrick Henry's speech before the Virgina Convention. I still can recite it from memory. Full text here: http://www.history.org/almanack/life...ics/giveme.cfm

Most Americans learn this in school. There are also the stories of Minutemen, Paul Revere, the Boston Tea Party, the Whiskey Rebellion and on and on. The flag with "Don't Tread On Me". The motto "Live Free Or Die".

Growing up in the 1950's, I was exposed to all of this. People living outside the U.S. may not understand any of this.

I guess my point is, these apparently bizarre actions do sometimes spring from early education - or indoctrination, if you will.

I just hope nobody gets hurt here.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:21 AM   #54
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The FBI's definition of domestic terrorism: Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;

Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (

ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.

Sure seems to meet the criteria laid in subpoint two.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:24 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm not saying I agree with the ranchers and what they want. I'm saying what they are doing isn't terrorism.
ter·ror·ism

noun
the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

Semantic quibble in 5, 4, 3,...
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:29 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
They wouldn't be irregulars. They would be lunatics.
Doesn't irregular mean they do not know whether to **** or go blind? I say let them do both - in jail. That way they can occupy a government building to their heart's content. And mine.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:35 AM   #57
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To get a first regional perspective, I turned to "The Oregonian", and the first article I opened, is this:

Burns residents confront militia over fears of violence

Written a day ago, and then already, some in the local population feared violence. Some pointed out threats of violence by militia supporters on social media. This was downplayed by militia leader Brandon Curtiss - a man from Idaho. The Bundys are from Nevada. With that in mind, I sympathize with this comment:
Quote:
These yahoos are all about state rights, then they show up in our state and try to impose their assinign ideas on us. Go back to Idaho Curtiss! We don't want you here!
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:36 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I read that they are saying "If you shoot at us, we will shoot back". They are saying that guns are for self defense in the event that authorities start shooting.
That will go down happily for me even if it is just a properly equipped small National Guard unit. Though I am fine with the torching the building after blocking all exits thing.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:40 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I read that they are saying "If you shoot at us, we will shoot back". They are saying that guns are for self defense in the event that authorities start shooting.
Wounded Knee started with an accidental discharge of a firearm.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:42 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Doesn't irregular mean they do not know whether to **** or go blind? I say let them do both - in jail. That way they can occupy a government building to their heart's content. And mine.
"Irregular", to them, means they're filming "Hot Shots: Part Troisičme".
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:42 AM   #61
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Can you imagine if these people were Muslim or frankly, any shade of brown with facial hair?
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:43 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Can you imagine if these people were Muslim or frankly, any shade of brown with facial hair?
You haven't been out that way much? The biggest danger to the man on the street there is the man in the pickup with six rifles on the rack.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:44 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
They dug in with lots of guns saying they'll kill anyone that tries to prevent them from getting their way. That sure sounds like bullying with terror to me.
No, that sounds like an irregular force engaging in a military action of used by regular forces.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:45 AM   #64
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Just go all Waco on them.

That'll show 'em!
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:46 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Sama View Post
You haven't been out that way much? The biggest danger to the man on the street there is the man in the pickup with six rifles on the rack.
I'm referring to the outrage - or lack thereof.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:47 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
How do you justify the highlighted? They do have that right. Especially, as in this case, to preserve land for wildlife.
I am being careful with my word choice. This is an issue against a wrong, but Constitutional power. People protest against things that fall into that bucket all the time (keystone pipeline for example).
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:48 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Wounded Knee started with an accidental discharge of a firearm.
The leader of this group needs to have great control of his guys. A bad situation is a trigger happy suicidal maniac in the ranks who will just start shooting. I would imagine that most of these guys have families and that most don't want to leave them as widows and fatherless children. A nutjob with no wife or children might take matters into his own hands and drag down others around him.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:48 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Sama View Post
ter·ror·ism

noun
the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

Semantic quibble in 5, 4, 3,...
That would mean every armed conflict in human history is terrorism. That definition is meaningless.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:52 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The leader of this group needs to have great control of his guys. A bad situation is a trigger happy suicidal maniac in the ranks who will just start shooting. I would imagine that most of these guys have families and that most don't want to leave them as widows and fatherless children. A nutjob with no wife or children might take matters into his own hands and drag down others around him.
Ahh.. I see.

Not only are they good guys with guns, they're responsible gun owners.

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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:59 AM   #70
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Some detailed background:
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-no...cart_big-photo
Some of the items:
Originally Posted by The Oregonian
Who's involved: Ammon Bundy, son of Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy, is acting as the leader, conducting a steady stream of media interviews. Other key militia leaders have joined him, including Ryan Payne, an Army veteran from Montana involved in last year's armed standoff in Nevada with federal agents; Blaine Cooper, an Arizona militiaman who also participated in the Nevada standoff, and Jon Ritzheimer, who made headlines last year for anti-Muslim rhetoric. Days before the refuge takeover, Ritzheimer posted what struck some as a farewell video to his family.
Reminds me of a couple of neo-nazi rallies in my little hometown in recent years - pretty much all the participants were from outside (as were the left-anarchist counter-protestors), all shuttled in by train and bus.
Originally Posted by The Oregonian
...
Militia response: Members of state and national militia organizations issued statements Saturday denouncing the occupation. Several leaders said they knew nothing of plans to occupy the refuge. Many remain in the Burns area.

Community reaction: Harney County residents are mad and concerned about the occupation. Militia members, including some of the occupiers, vowed in a community meeting with residents on Friday that they intended no violence. Burns-area schools will remain closed the entire week. They were scheduled to re-open Monday after the holiday break.
Sounds like these violent fools are waging their baby war against the local population (or like The Oregonian is a den of bloody liberals )
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Old 3rd January 2016, 10:59 AM   #71
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The government doesn't own the land, the public owns it. The feds should emphasize that point because this nonsense of, 'it's government against the people' narrative needs to be countered.

As for terrorism vs occupy movements, if people peacefully occupy a building and are willing to be arrested, that is a protest even if they break the law. If people occupy a building and threaten to defend themselves with firepower, that crosses to the criminal side of the continuum beyond civil disobedience. If people blow a building up, or light arson fires, that moves into the terrorism section of the continuum.

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Old 3rd January 2016, 11:01 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That would mean every armed conflict in human history is terrorism. That definition is meaningless.
war

noun
1.
a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state.

Told ya.

ETA: Nice try at dodging "war" but you failed.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 11:12 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Sama View Post
war

noun
1.
a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state.

Told ya.

ETA: Nice try at dodging "war" but you failed.
Something can fall into more than one category. In this case, if the war is using violence (as implied by the armed part) and the aim is political, then it also meets the definition of terrorism.

Your use of this definition is risible.

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Old 3rd January 2016, 11:15 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Something can fall into more than one category.
Yeah, via quibbling.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 11:16 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Can you imagine if these people were Muslim or frankly, any shade of brown with facial hair?
It wouldn't be all that different, really. The vast majority of people would think they were dangerous lunatics, and a few idiots would make excuses for them. The only thing that would change would be the identity of the idiots.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 11:17 AM   #76
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It is clear to me these people are engaging in criminal behavior.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 11:23 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Sama View Post
Yeah, via quibbling.
Squares are rectangles.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 11:29 AM   #78
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If you're playing for something then you won.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 11:30 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Something can fall into more than one category. In this case, if the war is using violence (as implied by the armed part) and the aim is political, then it also meets the definition of terrorism.

Your use of this definition is risible.
It isn't a war. It is an attempt at domestic terrorism according to the FBI's definition posted upthread.
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https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
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Old 3rd January 2016, 11:34 AM   #80
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,373
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
It isn't a war. It is an attempt at domestic terrorism according to the FBI's definition posted upthread.
Do they have a definition for an irregular force engaged in armed conflict against the government? As a law enforcement entity, they wouldn't need to make a distinction.
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