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Tags Cliven Bundy , Freeman on the Land , militia incidents , Oregon incidents

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Old 4th January 2016, 06:50 AM   #241
quadraginta
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
See this is what we get for giving them representation. We should have kept the west as non voting territories.

I wouldn't have earlier, but I am starting to find merit in that position.
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Old 4th January 2016, 06:55 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Okay. It's obvious you don't want to be taken seriously.
I assure you, I mean every word. I don't like that my country has shifted from federalism to nationalism. I believe strongly in our federalist system, but people have given it so much power to it that we have lost our character as sovereign states. I don't think it has been an improvement.
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Old 4th January 2016, 06:56 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Here is a map with federal land, holy guacamole, there's a lot.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...deral_Land.jpg

Yeah? And?

So what.

There was no state there when the Federal government took control of that land. The people who agreed to join the U.S. knew exactly what they were agreeing to.

They didn't mind the least little bit when it was the wealth and strength of the U.S. which enabled them to gain, preserve, consolidate, and maintain their control over the region as a state.

They didn't (and don't) mind reaping the benefits.

So now a handful of malcontents of dubious mental acuity and emotional stability want it to be different.

So what?
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Old 4th January 2016, 06:57 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Or the Mexicans.

Or the Spanish.

Or the French.

Or ...
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Old 4th January 2016, 07:03 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Here is a map with federal land, holy guacamole, there's a lot.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...deral_Land.jpg
I see that map clearly shows that Southern Nevada, and Las Vegas in particular, is owned by the Federal government. I suspect things are not as they are made to appear.
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Old 4th January 2016, 07:04 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Yeah? And?

So what.

There was no state there when the Federal government took control of that land. The people who agreed to join the U.S. knew exactly what they were agreeing to.

They didn't mind the least little bit when it was the wealth and strength of the U.S. which enabled them to gain, preserve, consolidate, and maintain their control over the region as a state.

They didn't (and don't) mind reaping the benefits.

So now a handful of malcontents of dubious mental acuity and emotional stability want it to be different.

So what?
Just because it was done one way doesn't mean we shouldn't do the right thing now.
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Old 4th January 2016, 07:06 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Just because it was done one way doesn't mean we shouldn't do the right thing now.
The "right thing" is how it is now.
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Old 4th January 2016, 07:19 AM   #248
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Really, I am not condoning these guys, but it is pretty ridiculous to start demanding that they be called terrorists.

If you are arguing that their "whiteness" prevents the media or whomever else you want to call them terrorists, then you ought to consider whether you would happily use the term on people behaving similarly if these people were not white.

This is a really silly meme that seems to be cropping up everywhere and the outrage is pretty faux, in my humble opinion.
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Old 4th January 2016, 07:20 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
I see that map clearly shows that Southern Nevada, and Las Vegas in particular, is owned by the Federal government. I suspect things are not as they are made to appear.
That map is correct. If you zoom in you see the spec of white where Vegas is. A more detailed map shows Vegas surrounded by blm land.
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Old 4th January 2016, 07:20 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It isn't a centralized power argument, it is a sovereignty argument. I would be equally upset if I found out the European Union actually owned 50% of Croatia as terms for entry. It would offend our ideas of Croatian dignity.

This may explain one of the things you claim puzzles you.

Like the original Colonies, Croatia actually existed before the EU.

Unlike the original Colonies, Arizona didn't exist before the U.S. Federal government. It was (to quote a famous group of philosophers) "steenkin' desert".

It wasn't even a Territory on its own. It was a part of the Territory of New Mexico.

And it wouldn't have existed as a state had it not been for the Federal government.

This is why there are differences in the amount of land under Federal ownership. It started that way.
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Old 4th January 2016, 07:26 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That map is correct. If you zoom in you see the spec of white where Vegas is. A more detailed map shows Vegas surrounded by blm land.
No.

Having owned a house in Las Vegas, I know the underground mineral rights belonged to the Federal government. Las Vegas (and areas around it, including North Las Vegas, Summerlin, Henderson, more) are larger than that spec.
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Old 4th January 2016, 07:37 AM   #252
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The appointment of Pontias Pilate was in error! I, for one, do not recognize any of his executions.

#notmymessiah

Just how far back are we allowed to rewrite history?
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Old 4th January 2016, 07:45 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Really, though, they're just following in the steps of Eric Holder.

But, you see, Eric Holder is an at-risk minority, his terrorist activities were "social justice", not terrorism.

Imagine the head implosions on this board when all the anti-gun, anti-white militia bedwetters find out that the New Black Panther Party showed up in Texas this year armed with "assault rifles", among other weapons, to protest the "murder" of Sandra Bland while marching and chanting "the pigs are going to get dead… off the pigs."

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Old 4th January 2016, 07:57 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
This may explain one of the things you claim puzzles you.

Like the original Colonies, Croatia actually existed before the EU.
And yet they have non trivial areas that are owned by the federal government if managed by different departments.
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Old 4th January 2016, 07:58 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
This may explain one of the things you claim puzzles you.

Like the original Colonies, Croatia actually existed before the EU.

Unlike the original Colonies, Arizona didn't exist before the U.S. Federal government. It was (to quote a famous group of philosophers) "steenkin' desert".

It wasn't even a Territory on its own. It was a part of the Territory of New Mexico.

And it wouldn't have existed as a state had it not been for the Federal government.

This is why there are differences in the amount of land under Federal ownership. It started that way.
Let's assume the land ownership amounted to de facto unequal treatment among the states. Should a federal government generally guarantee equal treatment among states? If yes, then origin of a state would not matter.

If it doesn't have to be equal, then should there be criteria to earn equal treatment? If not then discriminating by origin may make sense. But that comes with permanent mistreatment of member states.
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Old 4th January 2016, 08:00 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That map is correct. If you zoom in you see the spec of white where Vegas is. A more detailed map shows Vegas surrounded by blm land.
Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
No.

Having owned a house in Las Vegas, I know the underground mineral rights belonged to the Federal government. Las Vegas (and areas around it, including North Las Vegas, Summerlin, Henderson, more) are larger than that spec.
That, and Las Vegas is not entirely surrounded by BLM land. Most of LV's northern and eastern boundaries are military/DOE land (Nellis AFB and the Nevada Test Site). Much of the SE boundary is National Park Service and Bureau of Reclamation (Lake Mead NRA and Hoover Dam). To the NNE is the Moapa Indian Reservation.
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Old 4th January 2016, 08:04 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
That, and Las Vegas is not entirely surrounded by BLM land. Most of LV's northern and eastern boundaries are military/DOE land (Nellis AFB and the Nevada Test Site). Much of the SE boundary is National Park Service and Bureau of Reclamation (Lake Mead NRA and Hoover Dam). To the NNE is the Moapa Indian Reservation.
But as soveriegn entities control of nuclear weapons with in a state should devolve to the Governor clearly.
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Old 4th January 2016, 08:06 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Let's assume the land ownership amounted to de facto unequal treatment among the states. Should a federal government generally guarantee equal treatment among states? If yes, then origin of a state would not matter.

If it doesn't have to be equal, then should there be criteria to earn equal treatment? If not then discriminating by origin may make sense. But that comes with permanent mistreatment of member states.
Solution: the Federal government should either use eminent domain to seize huge swaths of land east of the Rockies or cede its land in the west so evil people can rape it for resources.
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Old 4th January 2016, 08:10 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
There was no state there when the Federal government took control of that land. The people who agreed to join the U.S. knew exactly what they were agreeing to.

There were also many cases in which the Federal government offered the land to the states, and the states essentially responded "You want us to be responsible to that worthless, god-forsaken land? Forget that. You keep it."
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Old 4th January 2016, 08:31 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Really, I am not condoning these guys, but it is pretty ridiculous to start demanding that they be called terrorists.

If you are arguing that their "whiteness" prevents the media or whomever else you want to call them terrorists, then you ought to consider whether you would happily use the term on people behaving similarly if these people were not white.

This is a really silly meme that seems to be cropping up everywhere and the outrage is pretty faux, in my humble opinion.
This, really.

I'm sensing a sort of excited air from the people on my FB/Twitter feed who are shouting the loudest about this being white terrorism, who are also coming up with cute and colorful terms such as "YallQueda" or "Whitesis". This sort of mentality downplays the actions of ISIS, and also makes these people out to be as evil and barbaric. In reality they are terrorists per the definition, but perspective is sorely needed.
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Old 4th January 2016, 08:32 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
That, and Las Vegas is not entirely surrounded by BLM land. Most of LV's northern and eastern boundaries are military/DOE land (Nellis AFB and the Nevada Test Site). Much of the SE boundary is National Park Service and Bureau of Reclamation (Lake Mead NRA and Hoover Dam). To the NNE is the Moapa Indian Reservation.
I found this map. I would definitely call the nation map representative of it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...QU7UuNpocihBxw
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Old 4th January 2016, 08:33 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Solution: the Federal government should either use eminent domain to seize huge swaths of land east of the Rockies or cede its land in the west so evil people can rape it for resources.
If you feel it is unequal treatment and needs to be rectified, then it is a conundrum.
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Old 4th January 2016, 08:34 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Really, I am not condoning these guys, but it is pretty ridiculous to start demanding that they be called terrorists.
They might be being sarcastic, satirical and/or engaging in an reductio ad absurdum argument. If so, they aren't making it very clear.

Originally Posted by Blaster View Post
In reality they are terrorists per the definition
What definition?
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Old 4th January 2016, 08:36 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Really, I am not condoning these guys, but it is pretty ridiculous to start demanding that they be called terrorists.
Can we call them crazy jackasses?
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Old 4th January 2016, 08:38 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Oh ye of little faith.

"There is no meaningful risk of Christians committing acts of terror." Ted Cruz - November 15, 2015.
Context, boy, context.

Cruz, who is an idiot, was referring to Christian refugees from Syria. You can pretend that you don't understand that fact, but we all know better.

In fact, I have to agree with Cruz on this point. A Christian Syrian refugee is much less likely to be involved in a terrorist attack than an Islamic refugee. Nonetheless, of course I disagree with his conclusion (that is, that the U.S. should discriminate on the basis of [apparent] religious affiliation).

In any case, Travis is clearly beating the poor straw man to a pulp. Good show, Travis!
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Old 4th January 2016, 08:42 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Can we call them crazy jackasses?

Yeah, why not?

Originally Posted by Matthew Cline View Post
They might be being sarcastic, satirical and/or engaging in an reductio ad absurdum argument. If so, they aren't making it very clear.



What definition?
I think the FBI has a rather broad definition of domestic terrorism under which their actions could fall, I suppose.

ETA: or maybe not. Anyway, I have also noticed some breathless nonsense about this being "treason" etc... as well.
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Old 4th January 2016, 08:50 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Context, boy, context.

Cruz, who is an idiot, was referring to Christian refugees from Syria. You can pretend that you don't understand that fact, but we all know better.

In fact, I have to agree with Cruz on this point. A Christian Syrian refugee is much less likely to be involved in a terrorist attack than an Islamic refugee. Nonetheless, of course I disagree with his conclusion (that is, that the U.S. should discriminate on the basis of [apparent] religious affiliation).

In any case, Travis is clearly beating the poor straw man to a pulp. Good show, Travis!
Plus, there is one prominent atheist among the Oregon group. Is there ever one in other religious attacks?
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Old 4th January 2016, 09:00 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Really, I am not condoning these guys, but it is pretty ridiculous to start demanding that they be called terrorists.
How about we continue to so it, because the shoe fits?

Quote:
If you are arguing that their "whiteness" prevents the media or whomever else you want to call them terrorists, then you ought to consider whether you would happily use the term on people behaving similarly if these people were not white.

This is a really silly meme that seems to be cropping up everywhere and the outrage is pretty faux, in my humble opinion.
There's no real need to "carefully consider" that one, because yes, we would.

The point, as usually pops up in these situations, is that black and muslim people are referred to as "rioters" "thugs" "hoaxers" and "terrorists" for far less than what these clowns are doing. Ahmed Mohamed was called such for a clock. Ferguson residents were called such for a candlelight vigil. Baltimore teens were labeled as such for taking the bus home from school.

Taking over a federal building and threatening to shoot people? The vast majority wouldn't even do that in a dream, because they'd fully expect to be slaughtered within ten minutes.
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Old 4th January 2016, 09:02 AM   #269
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Sounds like fuzzy thinking to me.
"I want to use this land without paying for grazing rights, hunting permits, etc. Therefore it is my right."

Trying to enforce your "rights" against the federal government with arms is pretty silly/insane. Why start a fight you WILL loose when there might be other options.


Perhaps the best would be to pull an Alamo, ensure reinforcements can get in but nobody leaves. And then hit them.
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Old 4th January 2016, 09:17 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The point, as usually pops up in these situations, is that black and muslim people are referred to as "rioters" "thugs" "hoaxers" and "terrorists" for far less than what these clowns are doing. Ahmed Mohamed was called such for a clock. Ferguson residents were called such for a candlelight vigil.
The people saying those things were ridiculous. Why should we also be ridiculous?
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Old 4th January 2016, 09:28 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Let's assume the land ownership amounted to de facto unequal treatment among the states.

<snip>

Let's not.

You can't beg that question. It is the core of your claim.

Support it first. Otherwise everything else you are claiming falls apart.
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Old 4th January 2016, 09:36 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The point, as usually pops up in these situations, is that black and muslim people are referred to as "rioters" "thugs" "hoaxers" and "terrorists" for far less than what these clowns are doing. Ahmed Mohamed was called such for a clock. Ferguson residents were called such for a candlelight vigil. Baltimore teens were labeled as such for taking the bus home from school.
I suppose the counter-point is that the word terrorism is being used too flippantly. Calling Ahmed Mohamed a terrorist was wrong. Calling these people terrorists is wrong, but may be within the bounds of the federal definition of terrorism if you wish to twist it a certain way.

Besides that, do we actually know the types of weapons these squatters are packing? I've looked for images or reports of the types of weapons, and have only seen a single person with a holstered pistol that was participating in the rally earlier in the day. Besides that, Ammon Bundy says they're armed, so they should be treated as such by the authorities.

Quote:
Taking over a federal building and threatening to shoot people? The vast majority wouldn't even do that in a dream, because they'd fully expect to be slaughtered within ten minutes.
They're not threatening to shoot -anyone- as part of their protest. They said that they would defend themselves if the authorities became violent. (I also think it's funny how you overlook this in a post where you claim the authorities are prone to violence).

Based on everything I've read about this, I'd say they are at least guilty of violating statutes prohibiting firearms in federal buildings (assuming they do not have the appropriate concealed carry permits of course).

Vanilla ISIS? Not quite.
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Old 4th January 2016, 09:52 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Matthew Cline View Post
The people saying those things were ridiculous. Why should we also be ridiculous?

It illustrates, clearly and unequivocally, how ridiculous they were.

Ridicule is a great weapon against prejudice.
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Old 4th January 2016, 09:55 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Solution: the Federal government should either use eminent domain to seize huge swaths of land east of the Rockies or cede its land in the west so evil people can rape it for resources.
You know that it isn't exactly blocking mining and such in western lands under BLM management.
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Old 4th January 2016, 09:58 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If you feel it is unequal treatment and needs to be rectified, then it is a conundrum.
There is different treatment for a variety of reasons. Why is putting it in the hands of state officials who you believe would do a much worse job an improvement?
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Old 4th January 2016, 10:01 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Blaster View Post
They're not threatening to shoot -anyone- as part of their protest. They said that they would defend themselves if the authorities became violent. (I also think it's funny how you overlook this in a post where you claim the authorities are prone to violence).
They pretty clearly are talking about more than passive resistance to their removal.
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Old 4th January 2016, 10:03 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Blaster View Post
Vanilla ISIS? Not quite.
They're a few beheadings and immolations short.

Maybe they'll work up to it though.
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Old 4th January 2016, 10:16 AM   #278
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Let's not.

You can't beg that question. It is the core of your claim.

Support it first. Otherwise everything else you are claiming falls apart.
That is fair. My first line should have been that of course the origin of a state doesn't matter if there isn't an inequality issue. I thought I did a good job outlining how the origin of the state is not relevant in most cases.
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Old 4th January 2016, 10:16 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post



Yeah, why not?



I think the FBI has a rather broad definition of domestic terrorism under which their actions could fall, I suppose.

ETA: or maybe not. Anyway, I have also noticed some breathless nonsense about this being "treason" etc... as well.
It's not "treason". It's "sedition". Big difference.

Treason:

Quote:
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
Sedition:

Quote:
The federal crime of advocacy of insurrection against the government or support for an enemy of the nation during time of war, by speeches, publications and organization. Sedition usually involves actually conspiring to disrupt the legal operation of the government and is beyond expression of an opinion or protesting government policy.
Not sure who called it "treason", but they clearly aren't aware of the definition of the term as the US defines it. Sedition, on the other hand, is clearly applicable.
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Old 4th January 2016, 10:19 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
As I said repeatedly, this isn't a matter of law. It is a matter of social justice.
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Advocacy does not magically materialize. People need to articulate and advocate for a good cause.
When they do so advocate, and when agreement is reached, the new concept of social justice arrived at is instantiated in law. Law is the mechanism by which we attempt to institutionalize social justice. It is why we proudly claim to be a nation of laws.

What puzzles me is how the Constitution is held up as holy writ when it too is just "law." Our social contract is not some sort of buffet where each citizen takes only those dishes which appeal to them individually. Doing so ruins the entire idea of what "social" is supposed to mean. In effect, the militia is claiming the role of the inspired prophet and attempting a position of authority to trump community will by dint of special understanding. I would be very surprised if there were even a single trained lawyer in their ranks.

I fear they will find it is a short step from prophet to martyr.

Last edited by marplots; 4th January 2016 at 10:20 AM.
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