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Tags Cliven Bundy , Freeman on the Land , militia incidents , Oregon incidents

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Old 4th January 2016, 10:21 AM   #281
Matthew Cline
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It illustrates, clearly and unequivocally, how ridiculous they were.

Ridicule is a great weapon against prejudice.
The thing is, if you simply write down "these people occupying that federal building are terrorists", it's not clear that you're being satirical/mocking/whatever. With so many people seriously using weird definitions of "terrorism", plus the lack of things like tone of voice in textual communication, that it's difficult to tell who's being serious or not. Whenever I mockingly use someone else's stupid definition of a word, I try to put in some sort of indication that I'm not serious, so as to avoid any confusion.
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Old 4th January 2016, 10:25 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Toke View Post
Sounds like fuzzy thinking to me.
"I want to use this land without paying for grazing rights, hunting permits, etc. Therefore it is my right."

Trying to enforce your "rights" against the federal government with arms is pretty silly/insane. Why start a fight you WILL loose when there might be other options.


Perhaps the best would be to pull an Alamo, ensure reinforcements can get in but nobody leaves. And then hit them.
They surely got attention. As for why ..

When communists got to power in 1948 and started to take away land from farmers some farmers fought them despite its was lost fight. I am not saying this case is similar in magnitude of lets say tyranny but perhaps feelings of those in question are just as strong. What these people seem to miss is that the US government is not tyrant and their understanding of public revolt is, as it was noted when votes no guns were mentioned, reactionary.

Last edited by tuco; 4th January 2016 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 4th January 2016, 10:36 AM   #283
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I don't think they're terrorists right now.

I think the term will become more accurate once things inevitably become violent. I seriously doubt these people will go quietly.
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Old 4th January 2016, 10:41 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Let's not.

You can't beg that question. It is the core of your claim.

Support it first. Otherwise everything else you are claiming falls apart.
Wait! I didn't beg the question. The use of the assumption I stated was not used to prove the assumption. It was used to address the issue if the origin of a state is relevant.
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Old 4th January 2016, 10:52 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I don't think they're terrorists right now.

I think the term will become more accurate once things inevitably become violent. I seriously doubt these people will go quietly.
as someone said elsewhere, they think if they die as martyrs they will get 72 cousins in paradise.
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Old 4th January 2016, 11:06 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I don't think they're terrorists right now.

I think the term will become more accurate once things inevitably become violent. I seriously doubt these people will go quietly.
It is hard to say. The Bundy bunch expect and want the feds to be pretty assertive, because that will make the Bundy Bunch look like victims. That would cause many of the militia and Oath Keeper groups sympathetic, and rally troops to the cause. So far, that ain't happening. Militia and Oath Keeper groups have mostly either been distancing themselves from the current action, or keeping a wait and see attitude. The local sheriff is hostile to them and most of the local population also seems to be. People don't seem to be flocking to Oregon to help these people this time.

A thing that favors a peaceful resolution is that the Hammond family has a fairly legitimate grievance about the sentencing. It certainly is irregular to be sentenced, serve time, get released, then get re-sentenced and sent back to prison when there was no parole violation or further illegal activity. It was almost certainly legal - the initial sentence missed the "mandatory" part of the mandatory sentencing guidelines. But it still seems uncommon and irregular. Also, this was probably an over-application of terrorism statutes.

This give a possible out, where both sides can claim victory. The President can commute the sentence of at least the elder Hammond. In return, the Bundistas forget they ever mentioned anything about ceding federal control of the WL Reserve and National Forest, claim victory about the commuted sentence, and scatter about the nation so they can be picked up by the FBI one at time with no chance to fight. The Bundistas would not like that last part, but must be feeling immune to federal laws by now and might not see it coming.

Even without commuting any sentences, it is possible this will fizzle out. Ammon Bundy says is is prepared to stay for years, but he may change his mind if the Oath Keeper and militia groups keep withholding support. He would be stuck with the irregular support of the unaffiliated crazies and Sovereign Citizen type people, I doubt he could get more than thirty people on-site at any given time with that little support. I for one, would not want to be holed up in a compound with just a dozen people of half of them were Sovereign Citizen crazies. They are the craziest of the crazy and they don't do well in groups.
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Old 4th January 2016, 11:28 AM   #287
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Now there is a story that individuals at the stand off are calling for snacks to be mailed in.
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Old 4th January 2016, 11:30 AM   #288
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Are they actually staying in the buildings?

The phrase, "You didn't build that" comes to mind.
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Old 4th January 2016, 11:43 AM   #289
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Would "fairweather crazies" be appropoiate?

My guess is that their objective/expectations is a stand-off with lots of posturing, publicity and an eventual federal back-off. Or at least something that could be spun into a "Freeman Victory".
How would they* react to a quick storm with lots of casualties?

Wouldn't a majority come to their senses?

*The assorted movements outside.
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Old 4th January 2016, 11:46 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Now there is a story that individuals at the stand off are calling for snacks to be mailed in.
A youtube bugout-bag is heavy on assorted camping/survival gear, but surprisingly light on food and water. Apparently you are supposed to find that in the wild.
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Old 4th January 2016, 11:54 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Toke View Post
A youtube bugout-bag is heavy on assorted camping/survival gear, but surprisingly light on food and water. Apparently you are supposed to find that in the wild.
I think the militia groups are organized enough to set up and supply camp kitchens. I would guess many of them even have prepared menus and shopping lists - it take a bit of organization to feed a large group in the middle of nowhere without giving them food poisoning. I find that sort of organizational challenge to be fun, and I am not alone in that regard. But the militia groups are not yet supporting this current encampment, and Bundy might find it challenging to get by without their organizational skills.

He is stuck with Sovereign Citizens. I have met Sovereign Citizens, always way out in the middle of nowhere. My impression is few of them are able to hold jobs or even really live around other people. They can barely manage to feed themselves, much less organize and manage a kitchen to feed thirty or a hundred people. Few of them would have been in the military and so their skill in handling firearms is probably lacking, and they are likely to accidentally shoot themselves or others.
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Old 4th January 2016, 12:03 PM   #292
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Armed jacklegs militants illegally occupying federal property who espouse a particular brand of nuttery ideals loosely associated with this'n here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagebrush_Rebellion
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Old 4th January 2016, 12:03 PM   #293
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Good point.
It is likely that the people who can at short notice organise feeding X people for Y months, can also recognise a bad cause.
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Old 4th January 2016, 12:13 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Now there is a story that individuals at the stand off are calling for snacks to be mailed in.
Sounds like a good way for the FBI to get spycams and recording devices into the building and amongst the men. Not inside the food itself unless you want to check them for colon polyps.
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Old 4th January 2016, 12:21 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It isn't a centralized power argument, it is a sovereignty argument. I would be equally upset if I found out the European Union actually owned 50% of Croatia as terms for entry. It would offend our ideas of Croatian dignity.
If you want to make the argument that Arizona is a sovereign state not subject to the laws of the U.S. government, go ahead and do it. How upset you are is not the relevant metric.

If it is subject to laws of the nation, then it's not sovereign.

Whether you think it should be is a different argument.

ETA: If the sovereign state of Croatia agrees to become part of the European Union under those conditions, what business of yours is it which terms Croatia accepts?

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Old 4th January 2016, 12:29 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by tuco View Post
They surely got attention. As for why ..

When communists got to power in 1948 and started to take away land from farmers some farmers fought them despite its was lost fight. I am not saying this case is similar in magnitude of lets say tyranny but perhaps feelings of those in question are just as strong. What these people seem to miss is that the US government is not tyrant and their understanding of public revolt is, as it was noted when votes no guns were mentioned, reactionary.
I find that likely, but misguided.

I am starting to wonder who have sufficient stake in land to care.
Is it only farmers and poachers, or are there somebody behind with a serious financial interest?
Could friends in the state legislature hand you mineral rights for peanuts?
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Old 4th January 2016, 12:35 PM   #297
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This article in Vox does a good job of explaining these guys' goals if it hasn't already been cited.
http://www.vox.com/2016/1/3/10703712...litia-standoff
Quote:
A militia protesting the "tyranny" of the federal government seized the headquarters of a federal wildlife refuge in Oregon on Saturday and, in a video posted to Facebook, called on "patriots" from all over the country to come to the refuge with their guns to join their fight. ...The apparent goal of the takeover is ultimately to induce the federal government to turn over government-owned land to local ranchers, loggers, and miners for their use.
Of course the enemy isn't just the federal government. It's the public they don't recognize have an rights to federal land:
Quote:
Their case heightened debate about how the federal government runs its lands. The United States of America holds deed to three-fourths of Harney County. Ranching done for a century and more is under pressure from environmentalists, recreationalists, and hunters. ...
The plight of the Hammonds has become a rallying call for one militia and patriot group after another. Men who see tyranny in federal acts are standing for the two men.
The goal:
Quote:
Thus, Bundy and his fellow militiamen have seized the headquarters of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge — located in a remote area some 50 miles southeast of the city of Burns — in hopes of creating a "base" where "patriots" like themselves can come, with their guns, to live and make their stand against the "tyrannical" federal government.
It's a remake of the Bundy ranch standoff.

But alas:
Quote:
it turned out that the Hammonds don't actually want the militia's help — or at least, not anymore. ...
Ammon also tried to recruit residents from the surrounding area, reportedly meeting with 10 or so locals, but they all turned him down.
The Oregonian interviewed some locals who expressed sympathy for the Hammonds and for the militia's "constitutional arguments" but ultimately rejected the militia for its extremism.
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Old 4th January 2016, 12:44 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This article in Vox does a good job of explaining these guys' goals if it hasn't already been cited.
http://www.vox.com/2016/1/3/10703712...litia-standoff

Of course the enemy isn't just the federal government. It's the public they don't recognize have an rights to federal land:
The thing was that ranching made sense with more land than was available for home steadying. So they depended on the commons for pasture land. So these tenant ranchers have always been dependent on the federal government and to people so ideologically focused on being individuals and doing it on your own that kind of dependency is ideologically problematic.
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Old 4th January 2016, 01:28 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
How about we continue to so it, because the shoe fits?



There's no real need to "carefully consider" that one, because yes, we would.

The point, as usually pops up in these situations, is that black and muslim people are referred to as "rioters" "thugs" "hoaxers" and "terrorists" for far less than what these clowns are doing. Ahmed Mohamed was called such for a clock. Ferguson residents were called such for a candlelight vigil. Baltimore teens were labeled as such for taking the bus home from school.

Taking over a federal building and threatening to shoot people? The vast majority wouldn't even do that in a dream, because they'd fully expect to be slaughtered within ten minutes.
Yeah, I got the point that idiots and morons throw the word thug and terrorist around with gay abandon. What I am questioning is why you would want to do the same? It looks like posturing.
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Old 4th January 2016, 01:46 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
So some armed people are terrorizing up in Oregon. They don't like current political policy and hope, through acts of terror, to get their way. Screw that democracy thing. But remember, just because they are doing terrorist things, they aren't because they don't pray to Mecca.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/03/us/ore...est/index.html

Bipedal sack of squirrels posing as a human, Ammon Bundy, even laid out their case.

See, they said they aren't terrorists! That totally means they aren't! They just want to create a better world where government has no say on what is done with publicly owned land. Those guns are just to protect themselves from meany types that think we should have some say on what happens on public land.
It sounds like you're talking about George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, et al. They were considered traitors, and if the would was in vogue then, they would also be considered terrorists, also.
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Old 4th January 2016, 01:48 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by jakesteele View Post
It sounds like you're talking about George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, et al. They were considered traitors, and if the would was in vogue then, they would also be considered terrorists, also.
The Boston tea party would be fairly universally viewed as a terrorist act. The destruction of private property over a complaint about taxes?
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Old 4th January 2016, 01:52 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I am an Arizonan before I am American. Our sovereign state should determine how to use the grand canyon for what is best for the Arizonans who live here. Washington should have no say.
Well the Grand Canyon operates at about 21 million annually and is in need of about $180 million in upgrades to water and waste water facilities alone. The fact is the western states can not afford to run the lands in question for the benefit of all. The land would be sold off, the grand canyon would become a uranium mine.

As others have pointed out the grand canyon does not belong to Arizona alone, it is preserved for the benefit of all American's. Not just for it's beauty but the land use and water rights affect 4 states and people as far away as southern AZ and CA.

Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
well, down here in Gadsden Purchaslandia I'd have to say I'm grateful there is a federal bulwark against the yahoos up in the state capital.
Me too. The yahoos tried to put a spent uranium mine into the Santa Catalinas while attempting to seize all federal land and mint their own coins. It's a ship of fools up there.

As for these christian terrorists in Oregon. Shut off the water, gas and power. Erect a pink floyd size wall of sound and blast Islamic calls to prayer 24/7. Arrest them all and charge them with sedition so they lose their right to bear arms. This "militia" nonsense has got to end.

They aired a women associated with the group reading a list of grievances. They only played a bit of it but it had the familiar tone and language of most FMOTL and SC literature.

ETA: The hastags #YallQaeda and waging a #YeeHawd on America are trending and cracking me up.
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Old 4th January 2016, 01:55 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
It's not "treason". It's "sedition". Big difference.

Treason:



Sedition:



Not sure who called it "treason", but they clearly aren't aware of the definition of the term as the US defines it. Sedition, on the other hand, is clearly applicable.
What about "armed insurrection"?
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Old 4th January 2016, 01:58 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The Boston tea party would be fairly universally viewed as a terrorist act. The destruction of private property over a complaint about taxes?
No it would not be "universally" regarded as terrorism. A few morons would use the word and Facebook would go mental with derision.
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Old 4th January 2016, 02:05 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I don't think they're terrorists right now.

I think the term will become more accurate once things inevitably become violent. I seriously doubt these people will go quietly.
As long as they go real immediate or go in body bags. Either fine with me.
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Old 4th January 2016, 02:09 PM   #306
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In other Bundy news It appears that leasing grazing rights is a pretty damn good deal for the ranchers. Their fees only cover 15% of the cost to maintain that land and the remaining 85% comes from the tax payers. Talk about a welfare state.

Essentially these protesters, like Bundy in Nevada, aren't happy with 85% subsidizing of their business and instead want it 100% subsidized or be given the land for their sole use.

link
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Old 4th January 2016, 02:11 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No it would not be "universally" regarded as terrorism. A few morons would use the word and Facebook would go mental with derision.
The destruction of private property to send a political message is regarded as terrorism, and note the use of armed intimidation of the workers on site at the time.
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Old 4th January 2016, 02:22 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The destruction of private property to send a political message is regarded as terrorism, and note the use of armed intimidation of the workers on site at the time.
Oh Jesus! Yeah, sure mate!
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 4th January 2016, 02:23 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
In other Bundy news It appears that leasing grazing rights is a pretty damn good deal for the ranchers. Their fees only cover 15% of the cost to maintain that land and the remaining 85% comes from the tax payers. Talk about a welfare state.

Essentially these protesters, like Bundy in Nevada, aren't happy with 85% subsidizing of their business and instead want it 100% subsidized or be given the land for their sole use.

link
Putting the "Free" in Freeman...
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Old 4th January 2016, 02:27 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Putting the "Free" in Freeman...
It's like dumpster diving for land.
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Old 4th January 2016, 02:35 PM   #311
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But if the feds give up the land where are they going to store all that alien tech?
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Old 4th January 2016, 02:39 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
In other Bundy news It appears that leasing grazing rights is a pretty damn good deal for the ranchers. Their fees only cover 15% of the cost to maintain that land and the remaining 85% comes from the tax payers. Talk about a welfare state.

Essentially these protesters, like Bundy in Nevada, aren't happy with 85% subsidizing of their business and instead want it 100% subsidized or be given the land for their sole use.

link
The Mining Act of 1872 is a pretty good deal (for miners) too.
http://www.seattlepi.com/news/articl...cy-1056919.php
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Old 4th January 2016, 02:54 PM   #313
tsig
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Sama View Post
Hey, militias are sacred! scared
FTFY
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Old 4th January 2016, 03:04 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
This must be one of those subtleties of USAian English that those of us elsewhere don't understand:
  • The collective noun for armed black people is 'thugs'
  • The collective noun for armed brown people is 'terrorists'
  • The collective noun for armed white people is 'militia'
None of those is correct. Some incompetent tools may use them that way/those ways. Doesn't make them right, though they do tend to be right wing and thus republickers!!!!!!!
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Old 4th January 2016, 03:13 PM   #315
Bob001
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
This is more of a collective rights issue. It's like native American land disputes. Western states are equal semi sovereigns to the eastern states but the federal government claims ownership of most of the land. It is unjust occupation.
Let's just note here (not having read the whole thread) that the states are not sovereign, semi- or otherwise, and the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution makes the states subordinate to federal law. Let's also note that the "federal government" is us, in the form of our elected representatives, and these lands have been set aside for the benefit of all the people of the United States, not just local yahoos who want to kill the deer and steal the lumber. Bundy's original complaint in Nevada was that he refused to pay the standard fees for grazing his cattle on federal land, fees that were actually lower than private landowners were charging.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-s...-crisis-nevada
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Old 4th January 2016, 03:36 PM   #316
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If they feds hadn't let these same morons get away with Bundy ranch thing, they wouldn't have tried this stunt. Because they'd be dead or in prison. Either is fine with me.
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Old 4th January 2016, 03:37 PM   #317
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Let's just note here (not having read the whole thread) that the states are not sovereign, semi- or otherwise, and the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution makes the states subordinate to federal law. Let's also note that the "federal government" is us, in the form of our elected representatives, and these lands have been set aside for the benefit of all the people of the United States, not just local yahoos who want to kill the deer and steal the lumber. Bundy's original complaint in Nevada was that he refused to pay the standard fees for grazing his cattle on federal land, fees that were actually lower than private landowners were charging.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-s...-crisis-nevada
In printz v united States the supreme Court directly calls out the dual sovereignty of the country. Federal sovereignty can't compel states to enforce federal laws.
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Old 4th January 2016, 04:16 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
If they feds hadn't let these same morons get away with Bundy ranch thing, they wouldn't have tried this stunt. Because they'd be dead or in prison. Either is fine with me.
Prison. Remember, Tim McVeigh saw the child-abusing "believers" in Waco as "patriots" and "martyrs," even as they were neither. I would rather they be arrested, taken to prison, and left to consider their actions in light of the law. That they weren't, that the BATF and FBI, not to mention everyone else in this drama, backed down when they should have simply waited for this mob to disband and moved in then, arresting the perpetrators and hauling them before a judge, it's what's led to this. Now that everyone is emboldened, they're willing to come in again, armed to the teeth, because the Obama Administration said, "We're made of jello."

That wasn't a winning strategy. If anything, we can now expect even worse in the coming years. I will be the first to admit, the BLM is one of the most lawless entities within the Federal Government, and this is at a time when we need them to function lawfully and honestly, if for no other reason than to prevent precisely the sorts of acts that we're seeing taking place, (including Nestle continuing to bottle water with expired permits, illegal hunting and grazing on Federal land, and the misuse of Federal resources, which, oddly enough, they seem to be all right with in Nevada and other Western States.) But you are not going to stop them when you pull this sort of thing.

Quite the opposite: the BLM will now follow a well worn tactic of declaring that if everyone is against them, they must be doing the right thing, so they need to do more of it. Never mind they're doing more harm than good, they have to protect THE PUBLIC TRUST. (Which, of course, they're not. They're doing the exact opposite when they kill endangered species, allow unregulated land leases, and simply ignore the laws they don't like.) If the FBI acts at all, it won't be in the best interest of justice, but it won't go any further than taking a few of these yahoos into custody. Nothing more will happen.

And it will happen again, and again, until you have a full blown fight. It will then serve as another excuse for people to come in and say, "This is what the Second Amendment has gotten you!" This band of mouthy rednecks, who are running out of Cheetos and beer before the first week is even out does not qualify as a "well-regulated militia," but that's what people will claim they are.

I think the best thing that could have happened would have been for a sustained media effort showing what was actually happening with the BLM, demonstrating the abuses, revealing the cheat deals that are ravaging the real resources of the West. If that had happened, if there had been some in depth analysis of what's actually happening in most Western States, real change might have been taking place. Ultimately, the Supreme Court might be forced to confront some of the decisions they've made over the decades, and real efforts might have removed the perpetrators of these abuses. It might even have led to the expulsion of numerous members of Congress, if not their censure, and quite likely Federal charges for officials who have clearly violated their oaths of office.

Now, thanks to dolts like Ammon Bundy, that won't happen. The very people he's protesting can now point to him, condemn him before the media, all the while back-slapping one another, "We ought to send him a thank you card! It's business as usual!"

So, thank you, Mr. Bundy, and all your shallow-sighted friends. All the changes you say you want have now blown away in the wind. You have given the very enemies you claim you oppose the very tools they need to continue their abuses.

Thanks, jerks.
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Old 4th January 2016, 04:18 PM   #319
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Now they're whining about needing snacks. Gave out their address to have supplies mailed to them by other loyal patriots.

MAN I wish John Oliver wasn't on hiatus right now.
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Old 4th January 2016, 04:19 PM   #320
Bob001
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
In printz v united States the supreme Court directly calls out the dual sovereignty of the country. Federal sovereignty can't compel states to enforce federal laws.
No, but it certainly prevents states from making laws that conflict with federal law, or prevent federal officials from enforcing federal law throughout the states, on and off federal property. For that matter, it doesn't prevent the federal government from withholding federal funds from states that fail to comply with "voluntary" requests.
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