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Tags Gretchen Whitmer , Michigan incidents , militia incidents

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Old 23rd July 2021, 12:33 AM   #321
rockinkt
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I think people may have the wrong impression of what's going on here.

The 12 "informants" don't appear to be undercover agents, or outsiders that the FBI placed into the organization in order to create and promote this plot. They could just as easily be legitimate members of the organization who turned when their leadership started talking about kidnappings. There doesn't seem to be any indication that the FBI actually funded any part of the plot, either.

The fact that one informant eventually become "second in command" of the group and continued to carry out plans, duties, and trainings expected of someone in that position, including going along with and showing enthusiasm for the idea, was probably something he was instructed to do by the FBI so as not to arouse suspicion but probably does not mean the FBI is thus responsible for the genesis and development of the plot and it doesn't mean the other plotters were entrapped.
Quite bringing rational explanations to a "Let's trash the FBI" conversation!
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Old 24th July 2021, 04:33 PM   #322
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Yeah I'm with Checkmite.

I'm usually quite knee jerk about entrapment but the more I read about the actors (no pun) involved I'm less confident that it happened in the most insidious way possible. Taking the mundane explanation for now than the appeals to dubious precedent.
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Old 26th July 2021, 04:25 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I think people may have the wrong impression of what's going on here.

The 12 "informants" don't appear to be undercover agents, or outsiders that the FBI placed into the organization in order to create and promote this plot. They could just as easily be legitimate members of the organization who turned when their leadership started talking about kidnappings. There doesn't seem to be any indication that the FBI actually funded any part of the plot, either.

The fact that one informant eventually become "second in command" of the group and continued to carry out plans, duties, and trainings expected of someone in that position, including going along with and showing enthusiasm for the idea, was probably something he was instructed to do by the FBI so as not to arouse suspicion but probably does not mean the FBI is thus responsible for the genesis and development of the plot and it doesn't mean the other plotters were entrapped.
From the reporting it sounds like the informant second in command eventually became the de-facto head of the group as the original leader stepped away.

It would not be unusual for the feds to originate a terrorism plot. Proposing specific criminal acts to groups of people who had previously only been engaging in vague, threatening statements and macho chest-thumping is a well worn tactic used by federal law enforcement.

Details are thin, and I think we're very far away from anything approaching a true entrapment defense, but I would not be surprised if most, if not all, of the plot to assassinate the Governor was not conceived primarily by this federal informant. There's really nothing to indicate that these people couldn't walk away from this plot at any time, even if it wasn't their idea to begin with. The fact that their leader was an informant leads me to believe there will be no shortage of first-hand testimony and other hard to counter evidence of their participation in an extremely illegal plot.

There's probably a good conversation to be had about whether the feds should be encouraging those with radical inclinations, yet no concrete plans for action, to commit to a violent plots as a means law enforcement. I see no reason to be persuaded by the coming crocodile tears of the extreme right as if more details emerge showing that these freaks were lead by the feds to the slaughter, considering none of these people have had any outrage for the decades of much more extreme versions of this tactic being used to torment the American Muslim community.
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Old 26th July 2021, 01:47 PM   #324
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The thought that aspiring terrorists will now be looking around suspiciously at their fellow yobs and wondering, "Muh, is Herkimer playin' straight wiv us? That new guy, he shaves his th'oat beard oftener'n I like. Feds? Dunno. Uh."

just tickles me in all the best places.
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Old 26th August 2021, 04:45 AM   #325
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Cooperating witness in militia plot gets 6 years prison time.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/man...or-2021-08-25/

The man had no prior criminal history and cooperated with the government in a guilty plea, testifying against his comrades.

Assuming the "entrapment" moonshot defense doesn't work, other participants in the plot seem to be looking at some very hard time.
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Old 26th August 2021, 05:56 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Cooperating witness in militia plot gets 6 years prison time.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/man...or-2021-08-25/

The man had no prior criminal history and cooperated with the government in a guilty plea, testifying against his comrades.

Assuming the "entrapment" moonshot defense doesn't work, other participants in the plot seem to be looking at some very hard time.
Good. About time these whacko, right wing militia groups start doing some hard time when they break the law.
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Old 13th September 2021, 08:36 PM   #327
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So this just happened:
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...ns/8295557002/

The FBI has some serious problems.
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Old 13th September 2021, 10:56 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So this just happened:
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...ns/8295557002/

The FBI has some serious problems.
They did the right thing and got rid of this loser. But the article does not give any evidence that he was involved in anything illegal concerning the kidnapping plot. Those allegations are coming from the defense strategy. I don't know if anything illegal, such as entrapment, actually occurred or not.
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Old 14th September 2021, 04:15 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So this just happened:
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...ns/8295557002/

The FBI has some serious problems.
Extremely on brand for a major case to be put in jeopardy because cops just can't stop beating up their wives.
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Old 15th September 2021, 04:39 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
They did the right thing and got rid of this loser. But the article does not give any evidence that he was involved in anything illegal concerning the kidnapping plot. Those allegations are coming from the defense strategy. I don't know if anything illegal, such as entrapment, actually occurred or not.
I find it interesting that a certain poster seems to bend over backwards to try to excuse or justify right wing terrorists.
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Old 15th September 2021, 04:49 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I find it interesting that a certain poster seems to bend over backwards to try to excuse or justify right wing terrorists.
Sure they FBI agent beat his wife but that doesn't change the audio or video from the informant. You can have an FBI agent who beat his wife and a group of traitors trying to overthrow the government. They're not mutually exclusive.Happily, with sentencing reform, our prisons have room for both.
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Old 15th September 2021, 05:58 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
The thought that aspiring terrorists will now be looking around suspiciously at their fellow yobs and wondering, "Muh, is Herkimer playin' straight wiv us? That new guy, he shaves his th'oat beard oftener'n I like. Feds? Dunno. Uh."

just tickles me in all the best places.


That's a common warning on Conservative websites, although not for the reasons you imagine. On any pro-Constitution forum, a good rule of thumb is that any poster trying to talk people into violence is either an FBI agent or an idiotic dumbass. In either case, the best move is to completely ignore them or, if they're talking about specific acts of violence, report them.
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Old 15th September 2021, 10:44 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
That's a common warning on Conservative websites, although not for the reasons you imagine. On any pro-Constitution forum, a good rule of thumb is that any poster trying to talk people into violence is either an FBI agent or an idiotic dumbass. In either case, the best move is to completely ignore them or, if they're talking about specific acts of violence, report them.
So which is it? Republican or pro-Constitution sites?
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Old 16th September 2021, 12:14 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
So which is it? Republican or pro-Constitution sites?

Who said anything about Republicans?


But seriously, the vast majority of Republicans are pro-Constitution. There are a minority of people trying to take over the Republican Party that are decidedly not pro-Constitution. It's basically what occurred to the Democratic Party during the 1960's, when the Democratic Party of JFK, Henry Jackson, and Hubert Humphrey was destroyed and replaced with the Party of Bill Ayers, Jeff Jones, and Mark Rudd.

Unfortunately, there are people that would be happy to be the armed contingent of the Republican Party just as OBLM and Antifa are the armed action contingent of the Democratic Party.

We (meaning Conservatives) have to be more successful than the Democratic Party in demonstrating and making absolutely clear that an armed contingent is not needed, wanted or acceptable to the Republican Party. Honestly, at this point, I have my doubts that's going to happen, which is why I'm not a Republican anymore. Just the notion that a political party in the US should have a goon squad to enforce it's will and to ensure that people vote the "right" way is incredibly offensive to me. And the whole "Well, the Democrats are doing it, if we don't respond we might as well give up and declare the Socialist States of America!" is disheartening. Two wrongs don't make a right and following the Democrats down that path just makes things much worse.

To say I'm not hopeful for the future of the USA is a severe understatement.
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Old 16th September 2021, 12:44 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
But seriously, the vast majority of Republicans are pro-Constitution.
I mean, sorta in the same way that Christians are pro-Bible. Sure, they love their idea of it, but when you dig into the details, it gets a bit murky.

Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
Unfortunately, there are people that would be happy to be the armed contingent of the Republican Party just as OBLM and Antifa are the armed action contingent of the Democratic Party.
Object Based Learning Model?

Also, since when was Antifa (1) an actual thing and (2) a part of the Democratic Party?


Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
We (meaning Conservatives) have to be more successful than the Democratic Party in demonstrating and making absolutely clear that an armed contingent is not needed, wanted or acceptable to the Republican Party.
This feels like a No True Conservative argument to me. I lurk in several conservative social media holes and there is still plenty of talk of 2nd Amendment remedies.

Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
And the whole "Well, the Democrats are doing it, [snip]
Doing what exactly?
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Old 16th September 2021, 12:52 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So this just happened:
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...ns/8295557002/

The FBI has some serious problems.
It sounds like they have one fewer.
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Old 17th September 2021, 12:45 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I mean, sorta in the same way that Christians are pro-Bible. Sure, they love their idea of it, but when you dig into the details, it gets a bit murky.


Object Based Learning Model?

Also, since when was Antifa (1) an actual thing and (2) a part of the Democratic Party?



This feels like a No True Conservative argument to me. I lurk in several conservative social media holes and there is still plenty of talk of 2nd Amendment remedies.


Doing what exactly?
Good reply, Upchurch. You pretty well said what I was going to. But, I'll repeat the "Also, since when was Antifa (1) an actual thing and (2) a part of the Democratic Party?"

Csmike seems to think that Antifa and the Dems are connected. They're not. I'm a Democrat and I want nothing to do with Antifa. I find most of them to be anarchists just out to make trouble, especially here in Portland. They and the Proud Boys are behind most of the problems here.
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Old 17th September 2021, 01:06 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So this just happened:
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...ns/8295557002/

The FBI has some serious problems.
Poor recruiting base. The military-prison guard-law enforcement-private security career path is engrained in proto-fascist American Warrior culture. White boys (and wannabes) with an enormous ego chip, and no moral shoulder to host it on, oh my! You get what you brew.
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Old 17th September 2021, 03:56 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Good reply, Upchurch. You pretty well said what I was going to. But, I'll repeat the "Also, since when was Antifa (1) an actual thing and (2) a part of the Democratic Party?"

Csmike seems to think that Antifa and the Dems are connected. They're not. I'm a Democrat and I want nothing to do with Antifa. I find most of them to be anarchists just out to make trouble, especially here in Portland. They and the Proud Boys are behind most of the problems here.
Haven't you heard? Antifa is the paramilitary wing of the Democratic party! While The Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, etc are just fringe right wingers and not to be associated with Republican. Doesn't matter if Republicans actually hire them for security at events, that's just coincidence.
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Old 18th September 2021, 08:43 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
Haven't you heard? Antifa is the paramilitary wing of the Democratic party! While The Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, etc are just fringe right wingers and not to be associated with Republican. Doesn't matter if Republicans actually hire them for security at events, that's just coincidence.

Just to be clear, I'm not claiming that OBLM/Antifa are card carrying members of the Democratic Party. Or that Harris, Pelosi, or the head of the DNC are meeting with the people funding Antifa and saying "These are the police stations we want burned down, preferably with the pigs still in there, these are the businesses we want looted and burned to the ground, these are the journalists we want attacked, these are the people we want killed...".

But to say that OBLM/Antifa aren't ideologically aligned with the Democratic Party is hard to credit. Otherwise, why would the Vice President be donating money to bail out rioters so they could continue their rampage? Why would police be ordered to stand down and not interfere with the rioters in city after city by the Democratic administrations? Why would dozens of prominent Democrats make the threat prediction that if Trump won the election the riots and killings would continue? Just like the Mafia, "Nice country you got here.... it would be a shame if something happened to it."

As to your second point, yes that sucks and needs to be stopped. That's agreeing with my point. Fighting fire with fire is monstrous and just leads to everything burning down! The Proud Boys and other groups going out there and fighting back against the OBLM/Antifa forces is wrong and just magnifies the problem exponentially. The answer, just like in the 60's against the last armed wing of the Democratic Party, the KKK, is the rule of law and ensuring that everyone's rights are respected. People should be out there safely filming all the riots and demanding from their elected officials that every person breaking the law be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. And if they won't listen, we need to ensure that we have full and free elections so that we can get new elected officials.

Joining in the riots and fighting against them makes the problem worse and just gives the rioters exactly what they want.
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Old 18th September 2021, 08:53 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
Just to be clear, I'm not claiming that OBLM/Antifa are card carrying members of the Democratic Party.
What is OBLM?
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Old 18th September 2021, 09:01 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
What is OBLM?
Only Black Lives Matter.

I'm glad to learn that the Klan was the armed wing of the Damn Ole Crats.
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Old 18th September 2021, 11:04 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Only Black Lives Matter.

Well, we've been assured by multiple leaders of the movement that saying Asian Lives Also Matter or White Lives Also Matter or Hispanic Lives also Matter or even All Lives Matter is explicitly racist. I honestly don't understand how valuing all lives equally is somehow diminishing black lives but that's what we've been told.



Quote:
I'm glad to learn that the Klan was the armed wing of the Damn Ole Crats.

That's a matter of historical record. Not all Democrats were segregationists, but all segregationists were Democrats. The modern revisionist conspiracy theory that people like Robert Byrd, Al Gore Sr, George Wallace and William Fullbright were really super secret Republicans is right up there with the 9/11 Truthers, JFK conspiracy buffs and Collusion Truthers as examples of how politicizing education is always a bad idea.

I have a lot of problems with both the historical and the modern day Democratic Party. But one thing that I believe its members should be proud of is that time in history when the people of the party stood up and said "Enough! It's time to join the twentieth century and leave these violent racist ******** behind in the dust bin of history." I think that modern day Republicans and Democrats can and should learn from that example with OBLM/Antifa and any groups on the right that blather on about "Second Amendment" solutions.
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Old 18th September 2021, 12:37 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
Just to be clear, I'm not claiming that OBLM/Antifa are card carrying members of the Democratic Party. Or that Harris, Pelosi, or the head of the DNC are meeting with the people funding Antifa and saying "These are the police stations we want burned down, preferably with the pigs still in there, these are the businesses we want looted and burned to the ground, these are the journalists we want attacked, these are the people we want killed...".
Oh, whew! At least you're not saying that! Because that would just be plain old crazy.

Quote:
But to say that OBLM/Antifa aren't ideologically aligned with the Democratic Party is hard to credit. Otherwise, why would the Vice President be donating money to bail out rioters so they could continue their rampage? Why would police be ordered to stand down and not interfere with the rioters in city after city by the Democratic administrations? Why would dozens of prominent Democrats make the threat prediction that if Trump won the election the riots and killings would continue? Just like the Mafia, "Nice country you got here.... it would be a shame if something happened to it."
I need a shaking head emoji for this one.
You think that Harris donated money so rioters "could continue their rampage"? Psssst....that is the right wing spin/lie that was put on it. Here are the facts from Snopes which rated that claim "Mostly False".

Quote:
What's True
Harris expressed support for a nonprofit called the Minnesota Freedom Fund (MFF), which pays criminal bail and immigration bonds, and encouraged her supporters to donate to it during the protests over Floyd's death in the summer of 2020.

What's False
However, Harris did not donate money to the nonprofit before, after, or during the protests, according to its records. Additionally, no evidence shows people who received bail or bond assistance from MFF for arrests during the demonstrations committed more crimes after their initial detainment.

In sum, while Harris indeed expressed public support for MFF following Floyd’s death, it was false to claim she donated money to the organization, or that it helped protesters “get out of jail and do more damage,” like Cotton alleged. Rather, no evidence existed to show the handful of people who received direct bail assistance for arrests related to the demonstrations committed more crimes after their initial detainment. For those reasons, we rate this claim “Mostly false.”
The MMF helps people who cannot pay bail because of inequities due to income. The poor...mostly people of color... cannot afford bail while. This means that poor people sit in jail for a more minor offense while (mostly) white/higher income people can pay get out on bail. So a shoplifter sits in jail while someone who defrauded people of hundreds of thousands of dollars gets to go home. Does that sound right to you?


Quote:
As to your second point, yes that sucks and needs to be stopped. That's agreeing with my point. Fighting fire with fire is monstrous and just leads to everything burning down! The Proud Boys and other groups going out there and fighting back against the OBLM/Antifa forces is wrong and just magnifies the problem exponentially. The answer, just like in the 60's against the last armed wing of the Democratic Party, the KKK, is the rule of law and ensuring that everyone's rights are respected.
Okay, you need a history lesson from this former history teacher. You're not going to like hearing this because Republicans just LOVE to claim they are the "Party of Lincoln". While technically, Lincoln was a Republican, the GOP of today is not the same party ideologically. Many, many books on this fact have been written by historians.

Have you ever wondered why Blacks overwhelmingly vote Dem and the South overwhelmingly votes GOP? The answer is because Dems and GOP basically exchanged ideologies/platforms while keeping their name. From Facts/Myths, read and learn:

Quote:
Did the Democrats and Republicans “Switch Parties”?
The US political parties, now called Democrats and Republicans, switched platform planks, ideologies, and members many times in American history. These switches were typically spurred on by major legislative changes and events, such as the Civil War in the 1860s, and Civil Rights in the 1960s. The changes then unfolded over the course of decades to create what historians call the “Party Systems.”
Quote:
Third parties aside, the Democratic Party used to be favored in the rural south and had a “small government” platform (which southern social conservatives embraced), and the Republican party used to be favored in the citied north and had a “big government” platform (which northern progressive liberals embraced). Today it is the opposite in many respects. Although what happened is complex, in many cases there was no clean sudden shift, and some voter bases and factions never switched, you can see evidence of the “big switches” by looking at the electoral map over time (where voter bases essentially flipped between 1896 and 2000).
Quote:
In other words, as the Democratic Party became more progressive in the progressive era, it attracted progressives from the Republican party and alienated the Democrats of the small government socially conservative south. Meanwhile, as the Republican party “conserved” toward Gilded Age politics in the 20th century, and embraced socially conservative single-issue voter groups and individualism, it attracted the “solid south” (their leadership and voter base) and alienated progressives. These two factors, and many more explained in detail below, substantially changed the party platforms, seats held in Congress, and the voting maps over the course of the 20th century (AKA the 20th century reversal, or the 20th century political realignment, or “the switch”).
Do you think the (white) people of the pre-1960's "Democrat South" all changed their political/social beliefs...racist, small government, and conservative... and suddenly started voting for the "Party of Lincoln"? Or does it make more sense that they started voting Republican because the two parties change ideologies? What makes more sense?

As for the KKK being "last armed wing of the Democratic Party":

The KKK was formed and most active and powerful during the time BEFORE the "big switch" while the South was overwhelming OLD Democrat. When the Dems were still the party of small government, segregation, etc. Or do you think a member of TODAY'S KKK is more likely to be a Democrat or a conservative Republican in the South?


Quote:
People should be out there safely filming all the riots and demanding from their elected officials that every person breaking the law be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law.
I fully agree. Can you give evidence that Dems disagree with that?

Quote:
And if they won't listen, we need to ensure that we have full and free elections so that we can get new elected officials.Joining in the riots and fighting against them makes the problem worse and just gives the rioters exactly what they want.
Absolutely...which we have now. It's part of the BIG LIE that our elections aren't full and free. The 2020 election was found to be the 'safest' in our history. Very few cases of actual voter fraud occurred, and, ironically, most of those were by Trump voters who were trying to 'counteract' the lie that Dems were committing voter fraud. Or do you buy into the BIG LIE?
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Old 18th September 2021, 12:41 PM   #345
Lurch
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Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
Well, we've been assured by multiple leaders of the movement that saying Asian Lives Also Matter or White Lives Also Matter or Hispanic Lives also Matter or even All Lives Matter is explicitly racist. I honestly don't understand how valuing all lives equally is somehow diminishing black lives but that's what we've been told.






That's a matter of historical record. Not all Democrats were segregationists, but all segregationists were Democrats. The modern revisionist conspiracy theory that people like Robert Byrd, Al Gore Sr, George Wallace and William Fullbright were really super secret Republicans is right up there with the 9/11 Truthers, JFK conspiracy buffs and Collusion Truthers as examples of how politicizing education is always a bad idea.

I have a lot of problems with both the historical and the modern day Democratic Party. But one thing that I believe its members should be proud of is that time in history when the people of the party stood up and said "Enough! It's time to join the twentieth century and leave these violent racist ******** behind in the dust bin of history." I think that modern day Republicans and Democrats can and should learn from that example with OBLM/Antifa and any groups on the right that blather on about "Second Amendment" solutions.

Lots of false equivalency goin' on here. If we stick to the present day...

BLM exists because of systemic maltreatment of blacks. Are a demonstrably oppressed demographic right in airing this grievance?

Antifa is a reaction against the fascist adjacent. Is the US citizen nominally opposed to fascists? Like, you know, after having fought a worldwide war to defeat a major outbreak of this ruinous philosophy?

The Proud Boys and their ilk, on a fundental level, are incensed that whites aren't reproducing fast enough. Are they right in fomenting violence and more generall oppression on the hated others because they can't make their own women into baby factories?

One side doesn't want the whites keeping them under their boot.

The other side wants to keep that boot there.

I see no equivalence.
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Old 18th September 2021, 01:01 PM   #346
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Mod WarningFolks back to the topic of the thread which is not an appraisal of USA political parties’ history and so on. The topic of this thread is cleverly concealed in the title of the thread.
Responding to this mod box in thread will be off topic Posted By:Darat
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Old 18th September 2021, 02:03 PM   #347
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