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Old 11th September 2019, 01:01 AM   #241
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
That's possible, too.

I'm more partial to the theory, though, that the ghost was ruthlessly bullied as a child by Rudyard Kipling, and having recently read Marie Condo's "The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up: The Japanese Art of Decluttering and Organizing", realizes that all those Kipling books in her space most certainly do not "spark joy" and absolutely must go, so she attempts to enlist the assistance of anyone who comes in the library in their destruction.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:03 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
For entertainment purposes only
Hang on....why do we need the book at all. Couldn't previous ghost victims simply complain to reception......."By the way there is a female ghost upstairs in the library who is annoyingly pointing at books all night. I want a discount on my room bill"
Maybe that happens sometimes, too.

Also, maybe the ghost was really just recommending her favorite book for the guest to simply read, and was then only pointing at the fire because it was getting low, and she was intending to recommend that the guest put another log on.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:05 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
If psychics claim to be able to talk to the dead and have mentioned the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Yuipkghg the Ultimate Creator of the Universe, do you believe they exist?



What about Indian (from India) mystics who talk to the dead, and mention Shiva or Kali? Do you believe in the existence of Shiva or Kali?




I can talk to the dead, by the way. I occasionally talk to my mother who has been dead since 1987. She hasn't answered me.
Oh who/what is Kali or Shiva?
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:13 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Oh who/what is Kali or Shiva?
Kali and Shiva are two of the most important deities in Hinduism, humanity's third largest religion, followed by approximately 15%-16% of the global population.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:38 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Invisible gnomes and another suggestion of leprechauns are just names being bandied about.
As are ghosts.

Quote:
The type of phenomena I am referring to is normally called a ghost.
Some people see ghosts, others, like you, hear ghosts. Others feel a coldness, and so on. There is no definition of what a ghost is. Just like for gnomes or leprechauns. You just happen to prefer ghosts, and dismiss every other explanation.

Quote:
The problem with ghosts is that unlike Big Foot or aliens, a ghost is not going to leave behind physical traces.
Actually, they do: You heard a ghost. Movement of air is a physical trace. Even if you claim that you did not hear a physical sound then you still end up with signals in your brain that are all physical.

Quote:
There is no evidence for invisible gnomes, as in a dwarfish creature that has the power of invisibility.
That is rich: you believe there is no evidence for invisible gnomes, but there is evidence for invisible ghosts? I would say there is exactly the same evidence.

Quote:
There is evidence, from credible witnesses reporting circumstances that have no other explanation, of ghosts.
What is a "credible witness" in connection to ghosts? I would say that the witness can be extremely credible as to what they experienced, just as I assume that you really experienced the sound of footsteps that you could not explain. But I do not think there are any credible witnesses who can say they experienced a ghost.

You have not been able to rule out every possible explanation of the sounds that you heard. You have only been able to convince me that you cannot think of any other explanation than ghosts. That is fair enough, but it is not evidence of ghosts.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:31 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
So, I'm curious. Are you supposed to visually see a ghost, or are some invisible? Who and why would one decide to be seen, or heard, or to just be there and hang out? Can anyone see/hear them, or do only certain receptive people, or people with a certain power, have the ability?
Some ghosts can (allegedly) be seen while others can't.

As for who can see them I think that comes down to how their brain is wired. Like how some people can play a song by ear, and how some people are great at puzzles.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:55 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yeah, there are a lot of reasons to believe that this particular story is fiction. The clergyman is not named, nor is the time period established, so it is impossible to research. The location is not named. He experiences an "overwhelming urge" which is extremely convenient for the story, but is otherwise unexplained.

Lot of red flags.
Clearly it was the Reverend M. in 18xx.

And now I'm in the mood to read some M.R. James!
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:00 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Not necessarily. The clergyman might have been the first person to actually burn the book. Other people might have seen the ghost and not had the "overwhelming urge" to throw the book into the fire. They may have got frightened, dropped the book (which was later replaced by a helpful librarian) and fled the room. They may have felt the "overwhelming urge" but been able to resist it. All of them could later have told other people about their experiences, which is how the hotel staff member - presumably one of many who know the story - heard about it.

The ghost might be a mindless phantasm repeatedly pointing at the space where the target book once was, any book randomly shelved there might end up on the fire.

That's the joy of fiction, no rules.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:29 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Because psychics claim to be able to talk to the dead and have mentioned that there is a god
So do clerics every Sunday and yet the existence of God is a matter purely of faith. Why then should the words of psychics be something more than faith?

Last edited by Steve001; 11th September 2019 at 04:36 AM.
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:09 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Kali and Shiva are two of the most important deities in Hinduism, humanity's third largest religion, followed by approximately 15%-16% of the global population.
god(dess) of destruction specifically
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:11 AM   #251
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Quote:
How do we explain ghosts?
We don't. Like gods, spirits, souls and similar drivel they don't exist and hence don't require explanation.

We explain human belief in ghosts (and related nonsense) by self-delusion, unwillingness to accept painful realities, apophenia, misunderstanding of reality et cetera.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:50 PM   #252
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Yes I see, so ghosts (if they existed) doesn't mean it is evidence of an afterlife?
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:54 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Yes I see, so ghosts (if they existed) doesn't mean it is evidence of an afterlife?
Correct. Without a clear and confirmed description of what a ghost is, proving its' existence would only prove the existence of a phenomenon tagged as "ghost". No proper inference could be drawn from an undefined observation.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:02 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Yes I see, so ghosts (if they existed) doesn't mean it is evidence of an afterlife?

Correct. "Ghost" could mean any number of things. Here is a non-exhaustive list:
  • disembodied dead person
  • remnant atomic "memory" of a dead person
  • transmitted atomic image of someone who is alive (say, who lives in another city)
  • transmitted image from someone else's mind (this of course assumes telepathy, yet another concept for which there is no evidence)
  • memory spontaneously surfacing in my brain, and transmuted to appear like something else
  • memory spontaneously surfacing in my brain, that I don't consciously remember (a glimpse of an unknown person I saw last year as I was walking down the street, that I didn't consciously notice)
  • image that we think is a ghost (Did you look at the rabbit photo I posted several days ago?)
And that's just what occurred to me now.


Which of these necessarily entails an afterlife; and even if any do, which necessarily entail a god; and even if any do, which necessarily entail the Christian god? (Remember FSM and Kali?)
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:20 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That is a false analogy. Trying to attribute a criminal act to a ghost is not credible and is nothing like what I am describing.

I went to lots of reports of "intruders" where at the end, we could find nothing and would joke about ghosts.

There was a famous ghost on a road out of one town I worked at, which I saw numerous times. It was a trick of the light, with headlights on a bend in the road causing a moving shadow that really did look like someone ran into the road and then vanished. I took a few phone calls about that, from non locals who did not know about the phenomena.

I and another officer saw a weird green light in the sky during one evening patrol. We could not find an explanation for that.

I was often single manned and checked remote properties when there were concerns of travelling criminals targeting such for housebreakings. I have been to some very creepy places and not had any experiences of anything.

If anything, being in the police opened my mind and means that I accept we cannot explain or evidence everything.
Late to the party (as frequently happens) I've been wondering how a trick of the light can simultaneously be a legitimate ghost. Maybe I missed something.
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Old 12th September 2019, 01:01 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
god(dess) of destruction specifically
Are there mystics/psychics who claim they can talk to Kali? Also are there non psychics who don't believe in a god or do all psychics believe in them?
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Old 12th September 2019, 01:03 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
Correct. "Ghost" could mean any number of things. Here is a non-exhaustive list:
  • disembodied dead person
  • remnant atomic "memory" of a dead person
  • transmitted atomic image of someone who is alive (say, who lives in another city)
  • transmitted image from someone else's mind (this of course assumes telepathy, yet another concept for which there is no evidence)
  • memory spontaneously surfacing in my brain, and transmuted to appear like something else
  • memory spontaneously surfacing in my brain, that I don't consciously remember (a glimpse of an unknown person I saw last year as I was walking down the street, that I didn't consciously notice)
  • image that we think is a ghost (Did you look at the rabbit photo I posted several days ago?)
And that's just what occurred to me now.


Which of these necessarily entails an afterlife; and even if any do, which necessarily entail a god; and even if any do, which necessarily entail the Christian god? (Remember FSM and Kali?)
Thank you, awesome! There are also those who claim to see them at night, this could be sleep hallucination right?
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:13 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
Thank you, awesome! There are also those who claim to see them at night, this could be sleep hallucination right?

"Could be" leaves an awful lot of room for interpretation, doesn't it?

Could be an energy form that usually lives inside a sun in a minor part of the Large Magellanic CloudWP that has inhabited a small part of the sleeper's brain for just a few seconds on its way to metamorphose into a flame inside a fireplace in a small hovel in a slum in Tegucigalpa, Honduras.

Could be an especially realistic dream. (By which I mean that the sleeper was convinced he was awake -- except for the presence of the ghost.)




EDIT. Did you understand the reason that "real" ghosts don't necessarily imply a god?
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:13 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
Many ghost believers state that ghosts appear on film or video recordings. A camera can be a quite useful scientific instrument, in that it records the actual appearance of an object, getting around the perception and memory errors of human observation.

There are vastly more cameras around now than previously, yet numbers of reported photos of ghosts have declined. This is true as well of UFOs, fairies, witches on brooms, angels, Nessie, Ogopogo, Bigfoot, Midlands Melanistic Panthers, and other cryptids. With more observers capable of making recordings, if there is anything observable there, the number of recorded observations should increase.
I am not surprised, since unless someone is filming/photographing at a very specific time or has the presence of mind in what would be shocking situation to start filming or photographing, what are the chances of capturing a ghost on a camera/phone?
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:15 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
You don't know they did, you are relying on what someone else told you.

We are supposed to believe that two police officers saw a lady leaving the scene of a suspected gunshot and they just let her walk off?

make your own mind up.
I think it is clear from what happened why they did not try and grab the female and by the time they did react, she had gone. They literally could not believe their eyes.
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:24 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
But that is all you have. Stories.
From credible witnesses who have positions of responsibility that they can undermine by telling fabrications.

It is assumed that ghosts are dead people. Of my ghost stories, only one is potentially linked to a death and it may be a coincidence. The haunting of the house I lived in may have been happening before the death.

The gunshot story is not assuming the girl who was seen was the person shot. The lady and the book and the lady in the bedroom are not linked to deaths at all.

It is assumed hauntings are dead people from the past. But is that necessarily what ghosts are?
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:27 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Plot Hole
If the minister throws the "cursed book" into the fire and thus it is destroyed then how in hell did the maid see this happen before? The previous person would have also destroyed the same book.
The way it was related was the staff member walked in to see the minister next to the fire, which had a book in it. If you walked in on someone who had just thrown a book into a fire, you would still see it. A book does not burn away like a single piece of paper in a matter of seconds.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:01 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I am not surprised, since unless someone is filming/photographing at a very specific time or has the presence of mind in what would be shocking situation to start filming or photographing, what are the chances of capturing a ghost on a camera/phone?
In the early days of photography, when only a tiny percentage of people had cameras, and those were unwieldy devices taking quite some time to get into action, ghost photos were more common than they are today, when nearly everyone has a camera in there pocket, ready to go at the touch of a button. This makes no sense, If any phenomenon is of fairly consistent occurrence, then the number of observations should be proportional to the number of observers.

In other areas of public interest, aircraft crashes, building collapses, tornadoes, meteors, celebrity sightings, pratfalls, ridiculous outfits, and so forth the number of photos has vastly increased. By contrast, photos of ghosts, UFOs and cryptids have decreased.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:19 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
In the early days of photography, when only a tiny percentage of people had cameras, and those were unwieldy devices taking quite some time to get into action, ghost photos were more common than they are today, when nearly everyone has a camera in there pocket, ready to go at the touch of a button. This makes no sense, If any phenomenon is of fairly consistent occurrence, then the number of observations should be proportional to the number of observers.

In other areas of public interest, aircraft crashes, building collapses, tornadoes, meteors, celebrity sightings, pratfalls, ridiculous outfits, and so forth the number of photos has vastly increased. By contrast, photos of ghosts, UFOs and cryptids have decreased.
There was a time when ghosts were a popular effect to be created by photographers. I think that the very nature of early cameras and the time it took for images to appear, meant that ghostly images were relatively easy to create.
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:30 AM   #265
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I am wondering why the idea of a ghost looking like someone with a sheet over them, originated. At least, when I was a child I believed they were Casper-like, but much creepier. Of course I gathered the information from comics, low budget scary movies, and other kids.

My parents said that ghosts weren't real. Oh right, as if they knew anything.
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Old 12th September 2019, 11:51 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I am not surprised, since unless someone is filming/photographing at a very specific time or has the presence of mind in what would be shocking situation to start filming or photographing, what are the chances of capturing a ghost on a camera/phone?
Are ghosts far more rare than giant meteors in the sky?
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Old 12th September 2019, 11:57 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
From credible witnesses who have positions of responsibility that they can undermine by telling fabrications.
Did any of your witnesses experience these negative consequences from telling their story?
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Old 12th September 2019, 12:13 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Did any of your witnesses experience these negative consequences from telling their story?
The two cops got a lot of ridiculing from colleagues. As for the rest, I do not know.

After we admitted to hearing the footsteps in the house, we were told that other residents had had similar experiences.
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Old 12th September 2019, 12:47 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
I am wondering why the idea of a ghost looking like someone with a sheet over them, originated. At least, when I was a child I believed they were Casper-like, but much creepier. Of course I gathered the information from comics, low budget scary movies, and other kids.

My parents said that ghosts weren't real. Oh right, as if they knew anything.
Funeral Shrouds were common until embalming became a thing. Helped with the whole "risen from the dead" thing. Also a common trick of the eye in low light, which was standard before electricity.
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Old 12th September 2019, 12:50 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I am not surprised, since unless someone is filming/photographing at a very specific time or has the presence of mind in what would be shocking situation to start filming or photographing, what are the chances of capturing a ghost on a camera/phone?
Considering the number of cellphone videos of spontaneous events, many catastrophic, I'd suggest the odds are pretty good these day.
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Old 12th September 2019, 01:57 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Considering the number of cellphone videos of spontaneous events, many catastrophic, I'd suggest the odds are pretty good these day.
Lots of people have video cameras recording most rooms in their homes now all the time, too.
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Old 12th September 2019, 01:58 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The two cops got a lot of ridiculing from colleagues. As for the rest, I do not know.

After we admitted to hearing the footsteps in the house, we were told that other residents had had similar experiences.
Well, the two cops did let a witness leave the scene of a potential gunshot incident, in ridiculous circumstances,
so yeah, i think they deserve the ridicule, heh.
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Old 12th September 2019, 01:59 PM   #273
kellyb
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Funeral Shrouds were common until embalming became a thing. Helped with the whole "risen from the dead" thing. Also a common trick of the eye in low light, which was standard before electricity.
Ooooohh! Duh! I'd never even thought of that before.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:11 PM   #274
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Nessie
...... unless someone is filming/photographing at a very specific time or has the presence of mind in what would be shocking situation to start filming or photographing, what are the chances of capturing a ghost on a camera/phone?
Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
In the early days of photography, when only a tiny percentage of people had cameras, and those were unwieldy devices taking quite some time to get into action, ghost photos were more common than they are today, when nearly everyone has a camera in there pocket ....... If any phenomenon is of fairly consistent occurrence, then the number of observations should be proportional to the number of observers.............. By contrast, photos of ghosts, UFOs and cryptids have decreased.
I totally agree with Pope130's observation. The volume of ghost photos has decreased yet the number of ready cameras and ease to take a photo has increased exponentially.

I additionally suggest that the changing manner ghosts look, between old film and modern digital images had been dependent on the change of technology, which further indicates forgery. Otherwise it means ghosts have evolved and changed dramatically over the last 150 years.
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Old 13th September 2019, 02:28 AM   #275
Nessie
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
I totally agree with Pope130's observation. The volume of ghost photos has decreased yet the number of ready cameras and ease to take a photo has increased exponentially.

I additionally suggest that the changing manner ghosts look, between old film and modern digital images had been dependent on the change of technology, which further indicates forgery. Otherwise it means ghosts have evolved and changed dramatically over the last 150 years.
The ghost stories that have me convinced there is something out there, involved people thinking they were seeing or hearing other real people, until they realised they were not. By then it was too late to whip out a phone and photo what had been seen. The problem is knowing what you are seeing in time to react.

I have never believed that spooky shapes, shadows, ghosts in sheets, headless people and that form of ghost to be real and they can be explained.
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Old 13th September 2019, 05:06 AM   #276
kellyb
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The ghost stories that have me convinced there is something out there, involved people thinking they were seeing or hearing other real people, until they realised they were not. By then it was too late to whip out a phone and photo what had been seen. The problem is knowing what you are seeing in time to react.

I have never believed that spooky shapes, shadows, ghosts in sheets, headless people and that form of ghost to be real and they can be explained.
Like I said, lots of people have cameras recording all the time in their homes now. Cops in the US wear body cams now, too, quite often. Where are the ghost pics/videos from them?
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Old 13th September 2019, 05:24 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Like I said, lots of people have cameras recording all the time in their homes now. Cops in the US wear body cams now, too, quite often. Where are the ghost pics/videos from them?
Well, there are they videos of moths close to the camera that are posed as ghost pics!

But even these are disappearing as the frame rate goes up.
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Old 13th September 2019, 10:50 AM   #278
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You're confusing the idea of credible witnesses with independent verification but they are two separate things.

I have reports from:

Police Officers
Security Guards
Accountants
Fire Fighters
EMT's
US Army Rangers
US Special Forces operators.
US Army Snipers
USMC Scout Snipers

I don't have any from:

Scientists
Medical Doctors

Hack ghost hunters love to throw around the phrase "Trained Observer" as if the extra training some professions receive make them infallible. If this were true cops wouldn't be shooting unarmed suspects because they moved their hands the wrong way. Yes, they can spot things that untrained people are never aware of but they're still human and subject to the same mistakes in perception everyone else can make.

Many of those people on that first list work LONG hours each day, and each week. Fatigue is the largest problem in law enforcement which goes unaddressed due to budget and manpower shortages. How sharp is a cop in his 10th hour of his or her fourth 14-hour day? Guess what? They're going to see things wrong. Hell, even doctors fall victim to fatigue and make catastrophic mistakes.

When a Special Forces guy tells me a cool story about seeing a ghost in Iraq I believe him, I believe he saw something. But that still doesn't make the ghost real. Keeping the two things separate is key to unlocking the real mystery.
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Old 13th September 2019, 11:34 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by AmyW View Post
I am wondering about ghosts and how rational minded people claim to see them. When my mum was a child she claimed to see three shadows, she awoke from a strange noise coming from the window and then three spirits appeared and one pointed at her. How do we explain when people claim to see ghosts?
The more I think about this, the more I think it's the wrong way around. We don't explain ghosts. Ghosts *are* the explanation.

We experience or hear about some phenomenon without an obvious cause, and we offer ghosts as an explanation for what was observed.

We see this most clearly in Nessie's anecdotes. Something was observed how to explain it? Ghosts? Error of perception? Error of memory? Unreliable narrator?
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Old 13th September 2019, 12:56 PM   #280
Nessie
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Like I said, lots of people have cameras recording all the time in their homes now. Cops in the US wear body cams now, too, quite often. Where are the ghost pics/videos from them?
I have not looked to see if there are any credible recordings.
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