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Old 27th November 2009, 11:20 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by mortimer View Post
Would it matter if Israel temporarily halted settlement construction? That's only one in a long list of preconditions the PA has set to restart negotiations.
If Israel suspended all settlement construction in the WB and EJ, the Palestinians would return to the negotiating table. so yes, it does matter.

Now I will say this: If Israel did indeed suspend all construction in the WB, I think that should be enough for the Palestinians to start talking again. While the world considers Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem to be illegal, Israel did at least give the Arab residents permanent residency status and the right to vote. And because of that, I think construction in East Jerusalem should be seen differently then in the greater WB. But that is up to the Palestinians.

However, the fact that Ehud Barak just approved construction of 28 more buildings in settlements in the WB, NOT in East Jerusalem, shows that Israel can't even live by its own commitments made just days earlier.
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Old 27th November 2009, 05:37 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
If Israel suspended all settlement construction in the WB and EJ, the Palestinians would return to the negotiating table. so yes, it does matter.
Do you have any evidence that this is the case? The PA has a long list of demands that have to be met before they will return to negotiations. Have they made a single statement that they are willing to drop those other demands if the settlement demand is met?
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Old 27th November 2009, 05:44 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by mortimer View Post
Do you have any evidence that this is the case?
its what they say they need to restart talks. do you have any reason to doubt this?
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Old 27th November 2009, 06:02 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
its what they say they need to restart talks. do you have any reason to doubt this?
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1249418545003

14 preconditions, including the halting of settlements. I haven't heard that they've dropped the other 13.
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Old 27th November 2009, 06:08 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by mortimer View Post
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1249418545003

14 preconditions, including the halting of settlements. I haven't heard that they've dropped the other 13.
that article is 3 and a half months old.

but, i guess, you can just tell yourself that the PA has not dropped the other supposed pre-conditions. that way Israel can justify building more settlements.

as the 2-state slowly dies a little more, making the 1 state solution all the more inevitable. perhaps that is what right-wing Israelis truly want.

maybe Israel will just annex all the settlements, and give the Palestinian cities and towns "Bantustan" status. yeah, that'll work.

Last edited by Thunder; 27th November 2009 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 27th November 2009, 06:15 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
that article is 3 and a half months old.

but, i guess, you can just tell yourself that the PA has not dropped the other supposed pre-conditions. that way Israel can justify building more settlements.
I am perfectly willing to believe that they have dropped the other preconditions. I just haven't seen any evidence that they have. I thought perhaps you had.
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Old 27th November 2009, 06:18 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by mortimer View Post
I am perfectly willing to believe that they have dropped the other preconditions. I just haven't seen any evidence that they have. I thought perhaps you had.
i would like to think, that with alll the back and forth about the settlements, that the PA would finally return to the table, it all construction stopped. at least in the WB.

but israel just issued 28 more building permits yesterday, for construction in the West Bank.

it appears to me that the Israelis and Palestinians are doomed to live together..or die together. But it will be together.

Last edited by Thunder; 27th November 2009 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 29th November 2009, 08:16 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post

28 new building permits issued.
Public buildings. ie: schools, hospitals, libraries, etc. Read the moratorium, this was specifically stated what would not be halted in construction.
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Old 29th November 2009, 08:29 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by bigjelmapro View Post
Public buildings. ie: schools, hospitals, libraries, etc. Read the moratorium, this was specifically stated what would not be halted in construction.
oh, so in that case, Israel can just go on building settlement infrastructure, just not actual housing?

nice. maybe the Palestinians should restart suicide attacks, but only kill men..and not women and children. would that satisfy you as well?
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Old 29th November 2009, 08:31 AM   #50
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As for the op of this thread. I find it amusing and unrealistic. No dunam-for-dunam (why should it?; land swaps sure), Arab states will not compensate the land and wealth confiscated from Jews, no one-sided apologies for the Palestinian situation (whilst ignoring the Jewish, Christian, Ba'ahi, etc one), Palestinian refugee funds already exist (per capita they receive the most humanitarian aid worldwide), security barrier should stay up for the time being and isn't a justifiable 'good-will' gesture (which one has worked thus far with the Palestinian leadership?).

Only ones I agree with is the restrictions on arms for settlers, but then again, final status agreements would make 2 contiguous states with outlying ones evacuated and wouldn't require personal security such as this.

2nd one would be the re-writing of the PLO and Hamas charter which are an incitement to violence against Israel. Can't say this for any charters or official statements of the Israeli government or their groups. I don't seriously expect the Palestinians to cease with ignoring Israel's existence. Incitement, which is not protected under free speech, should be eventually.
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Old 29th November 2009, 08:32 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
oh, so in that case, Israel can just go on building settlement infrastructure, just not actual housing?

nice. maybe the Palestinians should restart suicide attacks, but only kill men..and not women and children. would that satisfy you as well?
You have the worst arguments on this forum....ever. Laughing stock I tell you.
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Old 29th November 2009, 08:41 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by bigjelmapro View Post
You have the worst arguments on this forum....ever. Laughing stock I tell you.
hey, if Israel can claim that they have suspended all settlement construction in the WB, but the next day issue permits for 28 more infrastructural buildings, then I see no reason why the Palestinians can't also start limited suicide bombings.

whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

i don't believe in having one standard for the Jews and another for the Arabs.

oh, and btw, when is Israel gonna finally demolish those illegally built settlements in the WB hilltops? Israel seems very willing and able to demolish "illegal" Arab housing in East Jerusalem, but for some reason is unable (or unwilling) to demolish illegal Jewish homes in Eretz Yisrael.

Last edited by Thunder; 29th November 2009 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 30th November 2009, 10:08 AM   #53
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Again, for the slow one in the room, public buildings, ie schools, libraries, etc., were not included in the moratorium. This was publicly disclosed and stated clearly when Netanyahu presented the moratorium.

Equating the building of say a school and that of justifying suicide bombing? Still pushing this eh?

Israel demolishes these illegal settlements deep in the WB almost on a daily to weekly basis. Difference is, it isn't a big spectacle in the international media. So yep, one standard there. So you are, once again, making baseless assumptions and then running with it.

Edited by Gaspode:  Edited for Rule 12

Last edited by Gaspode; 30th November 2009 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 30th November 2009, 10:11 AM   #54
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if Israel can claim a "settlement freeze" while the next day issuing 28 new construction permits for community infrastructure, then the Palestinians can claim a halt to all terror-attacks, but let a few bus-bombings slip through.

is killing civilians and building settlements a moral equivalent? of course not.

is killing civilians and building settlements a political equivalent, within the context of the Israel/Palestine conflict? you betcha!!
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Old 1st December 2009, 12:30 AM   #55
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Again, read the moratorium. Try again.
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Old 1st December 2009, 05:22 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by bigjelmapro View Post
Israel demolishes these illegal settlements deep in the WB almost on a daily to weekly basis. Difference is, it isn't a big spectacle in the international media. So yep, one standard there. So you are, once again, making baseless assumptions and then running with it.
sorry bigjel, but my patience has a limit. I am calling BS on this stuff, you are simply "lying for Israel" something you appear comfortable with.

The last "demolition" i can find any evidence for was for a group of 5 or so families a couple of days after Obama left and the settlers simply came back the next day and moved back in.

please indicate what settlements you claim have been recently demolished. If its a "daily to weekly" basis you should have no end of examples for us.

you are simply lying...
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Old 1st December 2009, 08:27 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by bigjelmapro View Post
Israel demolishes these illegal settlements deep in the WB almost on a daily to weekly basis.
prove it.
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Old 1st December 2009, 08:50 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
prove it.
I can't say that it happens on a daily to weekly basis (in fact, this article says it's only happened twice before), but there is this.
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Old 1st December 2009, 09:23 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by mortimer View Post
I can't say that it happens on a daily to weekly basis
well, that because this was a lie exaggeration.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 04:33 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by mortimer View Post
I can't say that it happens on a daily to weekly basis (in fact, this article says it's only happened twice before), but there is this.
yes, there are many references around that talk about the Israeli government thinking about or talking about removing settlements. Sometimes its not just talking about thinking about it but directly talking about it....or even thinking about it very seriously or talking about seriously thinking about it.

sometimes these settlements are evacuated and then the people move back in later in the day. Talk is that Israel is thinking about doing something about that too.

Meanwhile Hamas has thought about stopping the attacks on Israeli civilians...or they have talked about it...or something.

Sometimes the rate of progress on this issue is....let me think of a word that describes it....nonexistant comes to mind.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 05:12 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
hey, if Israel can claim that they have suspended all settlement construction in the WB, but the next day issue permits for 28 more infrastructural buildings, then I see no reason why the Palestinians can't also start limited suicide bombings.

whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

i don't believe in having one standard for the Jews and another for the Arabs.

oh, and btw, when is Israel gonna finally demolish those illegally built settlements in the WB hilltops? Israel seems very willing and able to demolish "illegal" Arab housing in East Jerusalem, but for some reason is unable (or unwilling) to demolish illegal Jewish homes in Eretz Yisrael.
Clearly there is a 1-to-1 moral equivalency between building a school and killing non combatants, right?
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Old 2nd December 2009, 05:21 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by MikeMangum View Post
Clearly there is a 1-to-1 moral equivalency between building a school and killing non combatants, right?
Well, you have to even the moral odds somehow, right?
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Old 2nd December 2009, 05:34 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by MikeMangum View Post
Clearly there is a 1-to-1 moral equivalency between building a school and killing non combatants, right?
Hamas should stop killing people, Israel should stop building settlements...agreed?
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Old 2nd December 2009, 05:49 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Hamas should stop killing people, Israel should stop building settlements...agreed?
right-wing Israelis refuse to agree that as far as politics is concerned, settlements is equal to terrorism.

no one is asking them to believe that settlements and terrorism are moral equivalents. I sure am not.

but politically? yes..they are equivalent..and must both stop.

the Palestinians have stopped terrorism. why can't the Israelis stop settlements?
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Old 2nd December 2009, 06:25 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
right-wing Israelis refuse to agree that as far as politics is concerned, settlements is equal to terrorism.

no one is asking them to believe that settlements and terrorism are moral equivalents. I sure am not.

but politically? yes..they are equivalent..and must both stop.

the Palestinians have stopped terrorism. why can't the Israelis stop settlements?
They have?
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Old 2nd December 2009, 06:33 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by mortimer View Post
Sheesh mortimer, what can Hamas do? Arrest people for firing mortars at Jews? That's crazy!
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Old 2nd December 2009, 06:52 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Sheesh mortimer, what can Hamas do? Arrest people for firing mortars at Jews? That's crazy!
Hamas should stop killing people, Israel should stop building settlements...agreed?
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Old 2nd December 2009, 08:12 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Doctor Evil View Post
Somehow it seems to me that the term 'Palestinian peace deal' should be reserved to offers made by someone representing the Palestinian Palestinian people in some capacity.
The guy proposing this is striving for that - he is a candidate for the presidency of the PA. He's also realistic in assessing his chances low.
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Old 2nd December 2009, 08:55 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Hamas should stop killing people, Israel should stop building settlements...agreed?
Yes.

Israel should stop building illegal settlements yes. Neither should be predicated on the other. And the settlements aren't the same as mortar attacks.
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Old 4th December 2009, 09:05 AM   #70
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At the present moment, the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza do not really want statehood as they need the IDF to maintain control over Hamas. Conditions in the West Bank have improved greatly over the past few years and as long as the IDF can keep order, the situation will continue to improve and, possibly, make statehood viable.
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Old 4th December 2009, 09:18 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yes.

Israel should stop building illegal settlements yes.
all Israeli settlements in the WB are illegal. you cannot legally build something in land that has not been officially annexed by the govt.

if land has not been annexed, then it is not your land to build on, since you have refused to apply your laws and soveriegnity over the land.

as such, the ONLY building that is legal for Israel to do, is for purely military purposes, such as a base. Israel can even confiscate private property in the WB, for military purposes. but not for civilian settlements.

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Old 20th August 2019, 01:02 PM   #72
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I hesitate to even bump this decade-old thread, but here goes nothing ---

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/anno...state-solution

Summary -- Gaza/N.Sinai becomes ThePalestineState.
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Old 21st August 2019, 05:53 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
I hesitate to even bump this decade-old thread, but here goes nothing ---

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/anno...state-solution

Summary -- Gaza/N.Sinai becomes ThePalestineState.
Bumping a 10 year old thread with a 3 year old article, that is pretty serious thread necromancy right there.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 06:38 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Bumping a 10 year old thread with a 3 year old article, that is pretty serious thread necromancy right there.
No kidding. I guess it beats starting a new thread to recycle the same discussion point.
Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
I hesitate to even bump this decade-old thread, but here goes nothing ---

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/anno...state-solution

Summary -- Gaza/N.Sinai becomes ThePalestineState.
Other than the exact placement of borders is been clear for decades what a viable peace plan would need to look like. The problem is the Palestinians have never really wanted peace and Israel has moved to the right and is no longer willing to accept a reasonable solution ether.

Until those issues get addressed nothing will change.
Other than the exact placement of borders is been clear for decades what a viable peace plan would need to look like. The problem is the Palestinians have never really wanted peace and Israel has moved to the right and is no longer willing to accept a reasonable solution ether.

Until those issues get addressed nothing will change.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 04:37 PM   #75
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It's not just a problem of land, but specifically arable land and access to water. Giving the Palestinians a couple of specks of desert while Israel controls water access is not a solution, but rather a recepie for continued conflict.
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Old 26th August 2019, 12:00 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's not just a problem of land, but specifically arable land and access to water.
Not really. The solution does not involve land, arable land, water, or access to anything. The only way the conflict is ever going to be solved if the Arab world decides the perpetual conflict with Israel is no longer worth the benefits it brings them - a way to distract their populace from the problem of bad governance.

Once that is done, once the Arab world as a whole decides Israel should be allowed to live in peace, the solutions are easy and plentiful. The most elegant solution would be to resettle the Palestinians in Arab countries, proportional to the number of Jews they forced out after 1949. Grant them citizenship and leave it at that.

If it was good enough solution for the Jews of the Arab world it should be good enough for Palestinians too.

An alternative would be to create two Palestinian states, one in West bank anotehr in Gaza and equip them with whatever technology is necessary to provide them with enough resources to survive. Desalination and water piping may be necessary. These solutions aren't optimal, but they should be doable. Two Palestinian states mean there will be no impetous to connect them together via conquest of Israel, it is unlikely a state like that would be enable a long-term peace.

A third solution is for Jordan to take over West Bank while Egypt takes over Gaza. Both countries would need to work hard, and probably establish a demilitarised zone way back from their new lands. It is possible, if there is political will in the Arab world to do so and to befriend Israel.

I can probably think of a dozen or more other solutions, but all have one thing in common: Arab states must begin to serve their people. Until that happens the conflict is locked in perpetuity.

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Old 26th August 2019, 07:31 AM   #77
lomiller
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post

I can probably think of a dozen or more other solutions, but all have one thing in common: Arab states must begin to serve their people. Until that happens the conflict is locked in perpetuity.
Should they serve the best interest of their people and ignore what their people want, or should they do what their people want even if itís not in their best interest.

The real underlying problem is that people in Islamic states, particularly Arab states want to supress other religions and extend the reach of their own. Spoken or unspoken this amounts to a religious war of conquest For the most part what they want isnít just an end to that war itís victory in that war. Consequently, whenever they gain an actual say in the process they usually vote for war, not peace. This far peace when there has been peace itís come under dictatorships who want outside military support to keep their positions but these end up failing eventually, leaving the area in chaos.
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Old 26th August 2019, 10:16 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I can probably think of a dozen or more other solutions, but all have one thing in common: Arab states must begin to serve their people. Until that happens the conflict is locked in perpetuity.

McHrozni
But the Palestinians aren't "their" people. They are a displaced group from another country. I don't think it's the Arab states' responsibility to "resettle" them, but rather all nations of the world. As it was, the nations of the world decided that the Palestinians should not be "resettled", but instead be let back to the land that was taken from them. That's what we decided.
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Old 26th August 2019, 10:36 PM   #79
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Should they serve the best interest of their people and ignore what their people want, or should they do what their people want even if itís not in their best interest.
Good governance is doing what you think is best, even when it may be unpopular. Following the popular will with no regard for consequences is populism, the skirge of the modern era. You seem to be active in the Brexit thread, a prime example of populism at its worst.

Quote:
The real underlying problem is that people in Islamic states, particularly Arab states want to supress other religions and extend the reach of their own. Spoken or unspoken this amounts to a religious war of conquest For the most part what they want isnít just an end to that war itís victory in that war. Consequently, whenever they gain an actual say in the process they usually vote for war, not peace. This far peace when there has been peace itís come under dictatorships who want outside military support to keep their positions but these end up failing eventually, leaving the area in chaos.
Yep. However this can be remedied, if the political powers of the region work against it. It would take a generation for the change to take root, two to make major headway and up to four to make permanent peace possible. It's a long trip yes, but ultimately achievable and not longer than a trip never started in the first place.

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Old 26th August 2019, 10:49 PM   #80
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
But the Palestinians aren't "their" people. They are a displaced group from another country. I don't think it's the Arab states' responsibility to "resettle" them, but rather all nations of the world. As it was, the nations of the world decided that the Palestinians should not be "resettled", but instead be let back to the land that was taken from them. That's what we decided.
The problem is that's just about the only group of people we've ever made that decision for. Serbs who were forced out of Croatia were resettled, Jews who were forced out of Arab states were resettled, Somali refugees get resettled, Greeks who were forced out of Eastern Cyprus were resettled, Turks who were forced out of Cyprus were resettled, French who were forced out of Algeria were resettled, Indians who were forced out of Pakistan were resettled, Germans forced out of Poland and Czechoslovakia were resettled ... and those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. However Palestinians have been granted the eternal, inheritable right to return.

On what grounds can you justify giving Palestinians a right to return, if we don't grant that right to anyone else? No other nation has been granted the right to return. No other nation has been granted the inheritable right to return. The Palestinian right to return caused the region to be locked in a perpetual war. How do you justify any of it?

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