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Old 27th August 2019, 10:33 AM   #81
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The problem is that's just about the only group of people we've ever made that decision for. Serbs who were forced out of Croatia were resettled, Jews who were forced out of Arab states were resettled, Somali refugees get resettled, Greeks who were forced out of Eastern Cyprus were resettled, Turks who were forced out of Cyprus were resettled, French who were forced out of Algeria were resettled, Indians who were forced out of Pakistan were resettled, Germans forced out of Poland and Czechoslovakia were resettled ... and those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. However Palestinians have been granted the eternal, inheritable right to return.

On what grounds can you justify giving Palestinians a right to return, if we don't grant that right to anyone else? No other nation has been granted the right to return. No other nation has been granted the inheritable right to return. The Palestinian right to return caused the region to be locked in a perpetual war. How do you justify any of it?

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Arm them and send them back as conquerors? It worked well for Israelis, even after a couple of thousand years.
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Old 27th August 2019, 11:36 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
No other nation has been granted the right to return. No other nation has been granted the inheritable right to return. The Palestinian right to return caused the region to be locked in a perpetual war. How do you justify any of it?
Spain has very rightly granted such an inheritable right of return to descendants of Jews expelled from the country in 1492.See e.g. http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consula...rdic-Jews.aspx

If an injustice is repudiated all practical measures must be taken to undo its effects.
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Old 27th August 2019, 02:46 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Spain has very rightly granted such an inheritable right of return to descendants of Jews expelled from the country in 1492.See e.g. http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consula...rdic-Jews.aspx

If an injustice is repudiated all practical measures must be taken to undo its effects.
Spain doesn't have the expectation of greater than 51% of its population becoming returnees who then vote to dissolve the country and create an ethnically cleansed tyranny in its place.

If they had, I'm guessing that they wouldn't have passed that law.
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Old 27th August 2019, 10:46 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Spain has very rightly granted such an inheritable right of return to descendants of Jews expelled from the country in 1492.See e.g. http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consula...rdic-Jews.aspx
Spain did that on their own volition, for territory under their control and not as a result of international pressure. The inalienable right to return for Palestinians is being imposed on Israel on the outside, even though Israel does not want to grant it. If some other country volunteers to take Palestinians in and grant them the inheritable right to return (such as Saudi Arabia, that's where they originate from, after all), they're free to do so.

What the international community is not free to do is to force an unwilling country to take in the descendants of former inhabitants that have since left. Furthermore, if that was the international norm pretty much every argument against Israel is a tad weak.

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If an injustice is repudiated all practical measures must be taken to undo its effects.
Yea. If you want to use that as an argument for Palestine and against Israel my advice would be to think it over again.

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Old 27th August 2019, 10:52 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Arm them and send them back as conquerors?
That was tried in 1949, '67 and '73, it failed every time.

Plus it sounds like a plan. A bad plan to be sure, but it's a plan, not a justification.

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It worked well for Israelis, even after a couple of thousand years.
No, it didn't. That's not how Israel came to be. Instead the British Empire decided, with international backing, that a portion of their empire would be given over to their subjects of Jewish ethnicity, who would eventually form an independent state there. It's no different to how Pakistan was created, yet the legitemacy of Pakistan or India is never in doubt.

You see, the partition of India wasn't all fun and games either. In fact it was horrific if you compare it to the creation of Israel, supposedly 'the greatest crime without precendens in all history' or something of that nature. Partition of India resulted in up to 2 million dead and 14 million displaced. That's about twenty times more dead and homeless than in Palestine two years later - an event now called 'the catastrophe', because supposedly nothing similar happened before or since.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India

I can't say why that is, but I have a nagging suspicion it's because mass murder and genocide aren't much fun if Jews aren't involved. Bummer, given the title of the thread.

No one is stopping anyone from creating a Palestinian state in their own territory, if they wanted. It would be a suitable solution too, if Palestinians now must have a state, then let the countries who insited on that in the first place create from their own territory. Egypt and Jordan could do so with West Bank and Gaza, but they lost those lands in a war of aggression that they themselves started, so I guess they should give some other piece of land.

There are ample examples of a nation starting a war of aggression, losing it, losing a portion of territory and having to deal with consequences. It's how things usually went down in history. I see no reason why a peace plan that gives Palestinians a state and Israelis can live with couldn't involve a Palestinian state being carved out of a portion of Jordan and/or Egypt. If that was done in 1967 or 1973 this would all be long over by now and the conflict would be on the verge of being relegated to the history books.

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Old 28th August 2019, 01:11 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The problem is that's just about the only group of people we've ever made that decision for. Serbs who were forced out of Croatia were resettled, Jews who were forced out of Arab states were resettled, Somali refugees get resettled, Greeks who were forced out of Eastern Cyprus were resettled, Turks who were forced out of Cyprus were resettled, French who were forced out of Algeria were resettled, Indians who were forced out of Pakistan were resettled, Germans forced out of Poland and Czechoslovakia were resettled ... and those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. However Palestinians have been granted the eternal, inheritable right to return.
You are wrong on pretty much every count. None of those were resettled. They resettled. Palestinians aren't allowed to resettle, because nobody will let them. Thus, the UN decided that they should be resettled.
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Old 28th August 2019, 02:00 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You are wrong on pretty much every count. None of those were resettled. They resettled.
Semantics. Their homes were taken away from them by a hostile invader and without compensation.

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Palestinians aren't allowed to resettle, because nobody will let them.
The reason Palestinians don't have a home is because Israel is the only country that's expected to house the Palestinian population. This is unprecendented. When Palestinians first became refugees, there was no Palestinian nation. They were regarded as Arabs from Palestine, but not different from Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese or Egyptians. They had a home country at that point in time, several of them. Then it was decided by those states Palestinians deserved a piece of land those countries didn't hold to serve as their own, new country and the holder of the said land was expected to give it up. Because reasons.

The impasse continues to this day. I propose a two state solution where the nations who launched wars of aggression against Israel and as a result lost the territory they now believe should be Palestinian step up and grant them land from within their current borders, to compensate what they lost in their own imperialist wars.

Or they could just grant Palestinians citizenship and leave it at that. Either way is fine. I'm sure that too would be a peace plan Israel could live with. Granting the refugees citizenship in adoptive countries was done in each and every case of mass expulsions in the 20th century, except for Palestinians. Granting refugees new adoptive homelands worked every time, the one time it wasn't done was a disaster. I propose we don't reinvent the wheel with this conflict either and stick to the solution that was deemed good enough for everyone else.

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Thus, the UN decided that they should be resettled.
The UN decided there are two types of refugees: refugees (who have a certain number of rights) and Palestinian refugees (who have those same rights, plus extra rights not awarded to anyone else). I also propose we eliminate the distinction and treat Palestinians no different to other peoples who were left homeless by war, natural disasters and persecution of one type or another.

I've been called a racist xenophobe for expressing such views before (not here or by you, to the best of my knowledge). I find it amusing.

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Old 28th August 2019, 03:12 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Spain doesn't have the expectation of greater than 51% of its population becoming returnees who then vote to dissolve the country and create an ethnically cleansed tyranny in its place.

If they had, I'm guessing that they wouldn't have passed that law.
And like unlike western democracies that is important in ethnostates. Up next we will adress the problems with the hordes of hispanics overrunning america and what needs to be done to drive those fundamentally unamerican peoples out.
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Old 28th August 2019, 03:42 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Semantics. Their homes were taken away from them by a hostile invader and without compensation.
No, it's not "semantics". There is a massive and vital difference.


Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The reason Palestinians don't have a home is because Israel is the only country that's expected to house the Palestinian population.
Yes. It is their homland.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
This is unprecendented. When Palestinians first became refugees, there was no Palestinian nation.
Because it was territory ruled by the UK. Doesn't change a thing.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
They were regarded as Arabs from Palestine, but not different from Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese or Egyptians.
Regarded by whom? Certainly not the Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese or Egyptians, nor by themselves.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
They had a home country at that point in time, several of them. Then it was decided by those states Palestinians deserved a piece of land those countries didn't hold to serve as their own, new country and the holder of the said land was expected to give it up. Because reasons.

The impasse continues to this day. I propose a two state solution where the nations who launched wars of aggression against Israel and as a result lost the territory they now believe should be Palestinian step up and grant them land from within their current borders, to compensate what they lost in their own imperialist wars.

Or they could just grant Palestinians citizenship and leave it at that. Either way is fine. I'm sure that too would be a peace plan Israel could live with. Granting the refugees citizenship in adoptive countries was done in each and every case of mass expulsions in the 20th century, except for Palestinians. Granting refugees new adoptive homelands worked every time, the one time it wasn't done was a disaster. I propose we don't reinvent the wheel with this conflict either and stick to the solution that was deemed good enough for everyone else.
Or Israel could do what the UN decided.


Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The UN decided there are two types of refugees: refugees (who have a certain number of rights) and Palestinian refugees (who have those same rights, plus extra rights not awarded to anyone else).
This is what they call a lie.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I also propose we eliminate the distinction and treat Palestinians no different to other peoples who were left homeless by war, natural disasters and persecution of one type or another.
Nope. We've already decided what should happen to the Palestinians. They are to be allowed to return to their homes.

Sorry.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I've been called a racist xenophobe for expressing such views before (not here or by you, to the best of my knowledge). I find it amusing.

McHrozni
I don't think you're racist. I think you're wrong. Painfully wrong in a way that allows millions of people to live in misery with no way to return home and nowhere else to go. It also contributes to the insecurity in an area that doesn't need any help with that.
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Old 28th August 2019, 03:59 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, it's not "semantics". There is a massive and vital difference.
Go into more detail please.

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Yes. It is their homland.
That was decided outside of their homeland, by people who did not control the said homeland.

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Because it was territory ruled by the UK. Doesn't change a thing.
It changes everything. Any country is free to create a new country from within their own borders. We do not generally allow countries to create new countries from pieces of land they neither own nor control. We never allowed countries to create new countries from areas outside of their control. It's the most basic cornerstone of international politics. I find the proposal ridicolus.

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Regarded by whom? Certainly not the Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese or Egyptians, nor by themselves.
By exactly those people. If they thought Palestinians need a state those nations - primarily Jordan, but also Egypt and Syria - had the right and the ability to do so for a full 18 years, from 1949 to 1967. There was no push for a Palestinian statehood, independence or anything else. There was an imperialist war of aggression on Israel, in which they lost certain lands to Israel.

Contemporary precendens (Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Pakistan, India, Algeria) is the victorious defender has the right to expell unwanted population from their territory in such case. These were all events that happened 10-20 years prior to 1967 war, some of them happened just before Israeli independence and some happened between the Israeli war for independence and the Six-day war.

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Or Israel could do what the UN decided.
It's also a possibility, sure. Should Palestinians also do what the UNSC resolution says?
Because thus far the continued existence of Israel was a non-starter for them.

Plus there are grounds to claim the Yom-Kippur war absolves Israel from withdrawing from anywhere it deemes necessary. The war clearly showed why some lands taken in the 1967 war are necessary for Israel to be able to survive as a state. That does mean UNSC resolution 242 would have to be amended to reflect the newfound fact.

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This is what they call a lie.
No, I'm pretty sure I can find what separates a Palestine refugee from a refugee, according to UN.

Palestine refugees are defined as “persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict.”

https://www.unrwa.org/palestine-refugees

A refugee is someone who has been forced to flee his or her country because of persecution, war or violence. A refugee has a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a particular social group. Most likely, they cannot return home or are afraid to do so. War and ethnic, tribal and religious violence are leading causes of refugees fleeing their countries.

https://www.unrefugees.org/refugee-f...-is-a-refugee/

See? That's what we call a fact. You're welcome.

Quote:
Nope. We've already decided what should happen to the Palestinians. They are to be allowed to return to their homes.

Sorry.
That attitude is what has been perpetuating this conflict for some 70 years now. Maybe, just maybe it's time for a rethink?

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I don't think you're racist. I think you're wrong. Painfully wrong in a way that allows millions of people to live in misery with no way to return home and nowhere else to go. It also contributes to the insecurity in an area that doesn't need any help with that.
I think I proposed two solutions that would give them both a home and a place to go, saving them from perpetual misery on a permanent basis. If you wish to claim I'm somehow wrong it would be within the generally accepted standards of this forum to examine the two proposed solutions and either change your view or else (attempt to) explain why you think my positions are wrong.

That's what I did with your position of "Palestinians must be allowed back", after all. Feel free to reciprocate, thanks!

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Old 28th August 2019, 04:34 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Contemporary precendens (Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Pakistan, India, Algeria) is the victorious defender has the right to expell unwanted population from their territory in such case. These were all events that happened 10-20 years prior to 1967 war, some of them happened just before Israeli independence and some happened between the Israeli war for independence and the Six-day war.
Yep ethnic cleansing is good to keep the country clean. And people call the driving of the Rohingya out genocide.
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Old 28th August 2019, 04:45 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep ethnic cleansing is good to keep the country clean. And people call the driving of the Rohingya out genocide.
Of course it is genocide. Of course that is bad. Unfortunately there is no way to resolve the situation sorrounding Israel and Palestine without a genocide.

The most we can ensure is the genocide deals the least possible damage - a populace would be displaced, but not eliminated. The refugees would have to move, but wouldn't be killed. A group of people would live elsewhere, but they wouldn't be left to their own devices where and how that would be.

This is more than Arabs have done for Jews when they were forced to flee from their homelands and into Israel. Somehow that genocide was halal and is not questioned, but to ask Arabs to do for their people what Israel did for theirs is somehow unthinkable.

There's a whole list of similar events happening in 20th century. Not one of them resulted in anything substantially similar to Israel-Palestine conflict.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_...y_resettlement

The International Refugee Organization resettled over 1 million refugees between 1947 and 1951. They were scattered throughout Europe after World War II. 80% of them were resettled outside Europe. An example for those resettled within Europe are the 150,000 Polish soldiers and their families who were resettled in the UK by 1949.

Due to the Soviet invasion in Hungary in 1956, 200,000 Hungarians fled to Yugoslavia and Austria. Nearly all 180,000 Hungarians who fled to Austria were resettled to 37 third countries within three years. The Soviet invasion in Czechoslovakia in 1968 had the same effect; many Czechoslovakians fled their country and were subsequently resettled.


What happened to Palestinians is unfortunate, but it's a problem we know how to resolve and have resolved successfuly in a myriad of other scenarios in the same time period.

I propose the following hypothesis: the reason for the perpetual conflict in Palestine is because we treat a fairly standard event (by 20th century norms) as something special, unique. If we treated it as we treated all other, comparible, often far larger occurances of similar nature it would be a non-event.

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Old 28th August 2019, 06:36 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Of course it is genocide. Of course that is bad. Unfortunately there is no way to resolve the situation sorrounding Israel and Palestine without a genocide.
So how do we know if something is the OK or NOT OK kind of genocide? There are always justifications by those who do it, when do we accept them and when do we reject them?
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Old 28th August 2019, 11:49 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Yea. If you want to use that as an argument for Palestine and against Israel my advice would be to think it over again.

McHrozni
the statement was made
No other nation has been granted the inheritable right to return.
That statement is false, for Sephardim have been granted such an inheritable right by Spain. Israel welcomed this gesture, and rightly so. It is not an argument against Israel; I have plenty of other arguments against Zionism. It is an example refuting a false statement that inheritable right of return has never been granted. It has, to Sephardim when the Alhambra Decrees were belatedly repudiated by Spain. Spain has attempted to right a historical wrong. Redress was made to even remote descendants of the victims of these mediaeval crimes. Good, I say. What say you?
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Old 28th August 2019, 06:17 PM   #95
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I think that it's quite fair for all refugees that owned land in what is now Israel and were forced to leave in 1948 be allowed to return. Those that weren't born there, or decided to leave by their own choice, not so much.
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Old 28th August 2019, 10:36 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So how do we know if something is the OK or NOT OK kind of genocide?
Formulations "OK" and "NOT OK" kind of genocide do not apply in a situation where every single scenario leads to a genocide.

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There are always justifications by those who do it, when do we accept them and when do we reject them?
Acception and rejection are immaterial for the inevitable. If you disagree you're free to present your own scenario for a peace plan Israelis can live with. Good luck!

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Old 28th August 2019, 10:40 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
the statement was made
No other nation has been granted the inheritable right to return.
That statement is false, for Sephardim have been granted such an inheritable right by Spain.
I have no problem if Jordan and Egypt grant the inheritable right to return to Jordan and Egypt for anyone they seem fit.

Jews, for example.

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I have plenty of other arguments against Zionism. It is an example refuting a false statement that inheritable right of return has never been granted. It has, to Sephardim when the Alhambra Decrees were belatedly repudiated by Spain. Spain has attempted to right a historical wrong. Redress was made to even remote descendants of the victims of these mediaeval crimes. Good, I say. What say you?
I say that if you can't understand the difference between a country granting a right to return to whomever to its present borders and an international community forcing a right to return to a state that does not want to grant the return on a state then you probably should not be debating serious issues like the Israeli-Palestine conflict.

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Old 29th August 2019, 07:09 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Formulations "OK" and "NOT OK" kind of genocide do not apply in a situation where every single scenario leads to a genocide.
Sure they do. I get it the palestinians are fundamentally immoral at an inherent level and need to be destroyed. It is basic necessity one often sees behind genocide.

Of course actual liberal democracies would be right out as isreal would be destoryed as a jewish nation then even if there was no violence. So that is right out the ethnostate is what is important. Like getting rid of catholics in the US destroying the white protestant nations this country was always founded to be. Hence why we need genocide here as well.
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Old 29th August 2019, 10:51 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Sure they do. I get it the palestinians are fundamentally immoral at an inherent level and need to be destroyed. It is basic necessity one often sees behind genocide.
I don't think Palestinians are fundamentally immoral or anything of the sort. They are decieved and have been used as pawns by rulers of local Arab regimes who are fundamentally immoral.

Quote:
Of course actual liberal democracies would be right out as isreal would be destoryed as a jewish nation then even if there was no violence. So that is right out the ethnostate is what is important.
If the ethnostate is fundamentally not important then it's not important to Palestinians either and their demands for Israelis to stand aside and give them land for their own ethnostate are at least as wrong as Israeli demands for homeland are.

But Israel doesn't need their own ethnostate based on some loony view of the world. The reason why Israel needs their own state is precisely of what you initially dismissed: violence.

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I AGREE

There are ample grounds to believe a one state solution is not viable no matter what Israelis do - except be genocided upon in one way or another.

I would favor a one state solution like Belgium or Switzerland if, and only if, the Palestinian side showed willingness to live side by side with Israelis. This has consistently not been the case however, in the video above you see six year olds attacking a mock Israeli outpost. Look at the postures of those kids, how they handle their guns, how they move about. These aren't children playing. They know how to hold and handle a gun and how to conduct military operations at the age of six. This sort of psychological programing this early on is irreversable. For a one state solution to be viable Palestinians need to change their entire social structure and focus today for the one state solution to be viable by 2150.

Clearly this is not fesiable, meaning a two state solution will have to be found. Since 1973 Israel has rightfully demanded any two state solution to leave Israel with defensible frontiers. This means West bank and Gaza are poor choices and a new Palestinian state would have to be found somewhere else. My recommendation is that both Egypt and Jordan step up, since they were the ones who lost the 'Palestinian homeland' in several failed offensive imperialist wars they started. If ethnostate is not a thing any more and we shouldn't seek to build them then an equal - perhaps even superior - solution is they resettle Palestinians in their own borders, or perhaps in the borders of all Arab states from Morocco to Iraq.

Like, you know, what we'd do for anyone else in their situtaion?

Can you find an argument against my recommendation that doesn't rely on fallacies, such as making a false analogy with US catholics?

Quote:
Like getting rid of catholics in the US destroying the white protestant nations this country was always founded to be. Hence why we need genocide here as well.
Can you find me a video where US catholics train their toddlers to assault and kidnap protestants?

If not you just made a false analogy.

McHrozni
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Old 2nd September 2019, 02:35 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Yes. It is their homland.
For a large proportion of those claiming to be Palestinian, this is not true. The majority of those who left the portion of Palestine that became Israel were not originally from there, and a good number of them were not even Arabs.


Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Because it was territory ruled by the UK. Doesn't change a thing.
I think you mean the Ottoman Empire. Palestine was managed by Britain for a short period following WWI. It was never part of the British Empire.
The idea of "The Palestinians" as a separate nation is pure fiction. Prior to 1948, 'Palestinian' meant anyone living in that area, be they Arab Muslim, Christian or Jew. There was no distinct culture, language or ethnicity to distinguish the Palestinian Arabs- which is what we now call "the Palestinians"- from their Arab neighbours.


Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Regarded by whom? Certainly not the Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese or Egyptians, nor by themselves.
Jordan itself was carved out of what was then Palestine. It is composed over around 50% Palestinians, ruled by a small Hashemite/ Bedouin minority. The distinction between 'Palestinian' and 'Jordanian' is entirely arbitrary. Similarly, Egypt made no distinction between Palestine and Sinai, and only renounced its claim to Gaza in the 1980s. In Ottoman times, as I have said, there was no concept of a separate Palestinian people or nation.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Nope. We've already decided what should happen to the Palestinians. They are to be allowed to return to their homes.
Then you need to establish exactly where those homes were.
Even Yasser Arafat wasn't from Palestine. He was born and grew up in Egypt.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I don't think you're racist. I think you're wrong. Painfully wrong in a way that allows millions of people to live in misery with no way to return home and nowhere else to go. It also contributes to the insecurity in an area that doesn't need any help with that.
That they have 'nowhere else to go' is the fault of their supposed Arab Muslim brothers and sisters. Palestinians cannot obtain work permits in most of the Gulf countries, and are equally dispossessed in Jordan. They could- as McHrozni rightly says- have been settled in the immediate area, but for the wilful intransigence of their neighbours, who are far more interested in prolonging the issue to use as a stick with which to beat Israel, than they are in helping their fellow Arabs. Of course, for the more recent (i.e. in the few years before 1948) immigrants to Palestine, they could simply return to their original countries- Egypt, Iraq, Yemen etc.
https://www.meforum.org/3121/jordan-is-palestinian
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Old 3rd September 2019, 05:31 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I don't think Palestinians are fundamentally immoral or anything of the sort. They are decieved and have been used as pawns by rulers of local Arab regimes who are fundamentally immoral.
What ever justifications you use for genocide to help you sleep at night.

Quote:
If the ethnostate is fundamentally not important then it's not important to Palestinians either and their demands for Israelis to stand aside and give them land for their own ethnostate are at least as wrong as Israeli demands for homeland are.
Sure. But of course that isn't exactly my point.
Quote:
But Israel doesn't need their own ethnostate based on some loony view of the world. The reason why Israel needs their own state is precisely of what you initially dismissed: violence.
And that justifies conquest, they need their living space, or as it is often called Lebensraum.
Quote:
There are ample grounds to believe a one state solution is not viable no matter what Israelis do - except be genocided upon in one way or another.
And yet two state solutions are also dead, clearly genocide is the only option.
Quote:
I would favor a one state solution like Belgium or Switzerland if, and only if, the Palestinian side showed willingness to live side by side with Israelis. This has consistently not been the case however, in the video above you see six year olds attacking a mock Israeli outpost. Look at the postures of those kids, how they handle their guns, how they move about. These aren't children playing. They know how to hold and handle a gun and how to conduct military operations at the age of six. This sort of psychological programing this early on is irreversable. For a one state solution to be viable Palestinians need to change their entire social structure and focus today for the one state solution to be viable by 2150.
Yep they bomb them and bomb them and take their land and such and they still refuse to love them. Clearly the fault is theirs, until they give up all their land to jewish settlers there can simply be no peace. Ethnic cleansing is the way to go always when one conquers land. This is a simple fact and needs to stop being seen as some kind of crime against humanity.
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Old 3rd September 2019, 11:53 PM   #102
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What ever justifications you use for genocide to help you sleep at night.
It's not a justification, nor something I, the Jews or Israel caused. Arab regimes did, from A Apple to Z Zebra.

Quote:
And that justifies conquest, they need their living space, or as it is often called Lebensraum.
Jews didn't obtain a state through conquest. They obtained a state in the exact same way Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese, Jordaniand or Iraqis obtained their states: by dissolution of the Ottoman empire. One (small) portion was set aside to serve as a homeland for the Jews. The aforementioned states then repeatedly attacked the new Jewish state in wars of genocidal conquest. Israel won the defensive wars and held new territory as a result.

Lots of existing countries did that in the past century: The Netherlands, France, Italy, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia (these three as Yugoslavia), Poland and Russia all did the exact same thing and that's just what I can name off the top of my head in Europe, in 20th century, most of them within five years of the creation of Israel. There is ample precendens for one country invading another, losing the war and losing some associated territory. Pretty much all of the above precendens also came with an expulsion of inhabitants of the incorrect ethnicity.

As I mentioned before, what happened to Palestinians is in no way unprecendented, not in what happened and not in scale. The partition of India happened two years prior to creation of Israel, the result was 2 million dead and 14 million displaced. That's approximately twenty times worse in dead and displaced than what happened in Palestine.

Yet Palestine is somehow special and partition of India is all but forgotten. Because Palestine is worse, of course. Not.

Quote:
And yet two state solutions are also dead, clearly genocide is the only option.
What's your suggestion then? A genocide against the Jews?

Quote:
Yep they bomb them and bomb them and take their land and such and they still refuse to love them. Clearly the fault is theirs, until they give up all their land to jewish settlers there can simply be no peace.
Indeed, Israel conquered almost all of their land. They will soon be pushed off into the sea.

Quote:
Ethnic cleansing is the way to go always when one conquers land. This is a simple fact and needs to stop being seen as some kind of crime against humanity.
Indeed.

Oh wait, you're trying to be sarcastic. Well, when the above examples are treated in the same manner that position will have a leg to stand on. But this has to cut both ways.

After all, after Algerian independence, some 800,000 people of the wrong ethnicity (French) and faith (non-Muslim) were expelled from the country. Where is the United Nations resolution for Piet-Noir? Where's the outrage? Approximately 700,000 Jews were expelled from Arab states and had to settle in Israel. This too was a genocide, there never was a resolution or any percievable outrage, yet these human beings (it is often forgotten by ardent supporters of Palestinians that the Jews too are human) lost their homes because of events that were completely out of their control and were forced out of their homelands and into a new homeland simply due to their faith and etnicity. No activist for the Palestinian cause can be credible, unless they grant a comparible amount of attention to the Jews who lost their homes not as a result of the conflict with Israel, but as a collective punishment for it.

Palestinians are enjoying privileges not offered to other nations. Those privileges result in a brutalised, ruined nation I might add. The privileges do not serve the Palestinians in any way, they're just there because we decided they derseve better, even if it results in them living in the gutter. The only way to resolve it is to treat them in the exact same way we ever treated everyone else in their situation: give them somewhere new to live and call it a day.

I will take note you have proposed exactly zero alternatives. I reckon this is because you do not have any. Prove me wrong, if you can.

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Old 4th September 2019, 03:05 AM   #103
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Quote:
If the ethnostate is fundamentally not important then it's not important to Palestinians either and their demands for Israelis to stand aside and give them land for their own ethnostate are at least as wrong as Israeli demands for homeland are.
Sure. But of course that isn't exactly my point.
I feel like I should address this too. I'll help you make your point.

I think Palestinians should be granted their own state in between River Jordan and the sea, because: _____________________________________________ .

What do you write on the line? The reasoning can be longer than the line provided, it's just an example.

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Old 4th September 2019, 03:12 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I feel like I should address this too. I'll help you make your point.

I think Palestinians should be granted their own state in between River Jordan and the sea, because: _____________________________________________ .

What do you write on the line? The reasoning can be longer than the line provided, it's just an example.

McHrozni
Two states solutions are dead. The settlements put a solid end to that and we need to stop pretending otherwise. Clearly an formalized apartheid state is the only answer and giving up on this faking being a liberal western democracy while being a fundamentally jewish state. Become the theocracy it was intended to be and end the playing a this BS liberal democracy.
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Old 4th September 2019, 03:28 AM   #105
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Two states solutions are dead. The settlements put a solid end to that and we need to stop pretending otherwise.
Let's try this again.

I think Palestinians should be granted their own state in between River Jordan and the sea, because: _____________________________________________ .

You clearly feel strongly Palestinians should have the right to the lands of Israel, with no room for debate. All I'm asking you is to explain your reasoning for it. How hard can it be?

Quote:
Clearly an formalized apartheid state is the only answer and giving up on this faking being a liberal western democracy while being a fundamentally jewish state. Become the theocracy it was intended to be and end the playing a this BS liberal democracy.
First of all, cut the kool-aid a bit. An apartheid state does not grant the reperssed minority the same rights as the ruling majority, Israel does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

Now that your drinking habit is hopefully under control, we can address the second issue. I mentioned several times an acceptable solution for Palestinians would be the same solution imposed upon the Algerians of French descent, who were forced out of their homes and into exile in the country their descendants came from. The same solution was imposed on the Jews living in Arab countries, they were forced out of their homes without compensation and fled into Israel.

Why is the same treatment not a suitable solution for the Palestinians?

I'll help you, the best way to answer is in the following format:
The solution of resettling Palestinians in other Arab countries is not suitable, because _________________________ .

What do you put on the line? As before the answer can be longer or shorter as the line, it's just an example to follow. I can do the reverse, look:

The solution of resettling Palestinians in other Arab countries is a suitable solution to the problem, because those countries expelled most of their Jews out after the formation of Israel, as a form of collective punishment for the creation and continued existence of this state. Resettling the disposessed Palestinians would thus finish the population exchange between Israel and the Arab world. The solution would be eqully unjust to both sides and enable lasting peace in the region.

See? Easy peasy. Now you do it. Explain why the solution is not suitable.

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Old 4th September 2019, 04:35 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Let's try this again.

I think Palestinians should be granted their own state in between River Jordan and the sea, because: _____________________________________________ .

You clearly feel strongly Palestinians should have the right to the lands of Israel, with no room for debate. All I'm asking you is to explain your reasoning for it. How hard can it be?



First of all, cut the kool-aid a bit. An apartheid state does not grant the reperssed minority the same rights as the ruling majority, Israel does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

Now that your drinking habit is hopefully under control, we can address the second issue. I mentioned several times an acceptable solution for Palestinians would be the same solution imposed upon the Algerians of French descent, who were forced out of their homes and into exile in the country their descendants came from. The same solution was imposed on the Jews living in Arab countries, they were forced out of their homes without compensation and fled into Israel.

Why is the same treatment not a suitable solution for the Palestinians?
Ask the Israelis that, it seems to be it would destroy the jewish nature of the state. It would threaten jewish perpetual majority and so is a non starter. It is what I am actually for as any kind of long term solution. But it is incompatible with the identity of israel as a jewish state to do so.
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Old 4th September 2019, 05:18 AM   #107
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Ask the Israelis that, it seems to be it would destroy the jewish nature of the state. It would threaten jewish perpetual majority and so is a non starter.
This is commonly brought up, yes. You keep claiming the issue is the "Jewish nature of the state". There is, in fact, a far more mundane reason why one state solution is not fesiable. A reason that is danced around and ignored while a the "Jewish nature" of the state is pushed ad nauseum.

The reason follows from:

Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day or Resurrection.

and

Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims.

https://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818.htm

Jews are not willing to be genocided upon - the "killed" variety of genocide - for the sake of peace. It's as simple as that. The fact you're unwilling to acknowledge this, even after it's been told to you repeatedly, and object to any other solution on the grounds of 'being genocidal', demonstrates the general lack of analysis, perspective and critical thinking the problem so commonly suffers from. Population transfer is a common solution for the problem and was used in multiple other examples, involving Muslims and non-Muslims both. Israel already accepted Jews fleeing from the Arab world, with no compensation. It is on the Arabs to do the same for their 'brothers', thus solving the problem once and for all.

Of course it would leave Palestinians without a state they would have a majority in, but you don't seem to consider that a valid reason to have a state in any case. So there, solution found, everyone is equally unhappy, meaning the solution is as close to fair as it can get. Also, unlike with the one state solution, nobody dies. That's usually considered a plus, right?

You are unable to answer the question:
The solution of resettling Palestinians in other Arab countries is not suitable, because _________________________ .

So I'm assuming you don't actually have an answer. That's because there isn't one, there is no objective reason whatsoever why it couldn't or shouldn't be done, other than the intrasingence of the Arab regimes who want to perpetuate the problem. Neither the problem nor the solution was ever in Israel, it always was everywhere else.

Quote:
It is what I am actually for as any kind of long term solution. But it is incompatible with the identity of israel as a jewish state to do so.
It is incompatible with Jewish existence in Israel. Your solution amounts to calling for a genocide against the Jews, on the grounds it prevents a genocide against Palestinians.

In other words, "how do we know if something is the OK or NOT OK kind of genocide?"

McHrozni
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Old 4th September 2019, 05:25 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
This is commonly brought up, yes. You keep claiming the issue is the "Jewish nature of the state".

There is, in fact, a far more mundane reason why one state solution is not fesiable. A reason that is danced around and ignored while a the "Jewish nature" of the state is pushed ad nauseum.

The reason follows from:

Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day or Resurrection.

and

Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims.

https://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818.htm
Yes yes yes, Palestinians and Muslims in general are incompatible with western democracies I know. That is why they need to be expunged. Their desire to exterminate jews is innate and in no way could possibly be changed or such.
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Old 4th September 2019, 11:03 PM   #109
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes yes yes, Palestinians and Muslims in general are incompatible with western democracies I know.
Palestinians, with the current attitudes impressed upon them by decades of propaganda, are incompatible with a western democracy that has a significant Jewish presence.

Do remember what the title of the thread is.

Quote:
That is why they need to be expunged.
No.

Quote:
Their desire to exterminate jews is innate and in no way could possibly be changed or such.
This is from an earlier post. Do try reading it and watch the video please.

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I AGREE

There are ample grounds to believe a one state solution is not viable no matter what Israelis do - except be genocided upon in one way or another.

I would favor a one state solution like Belgium or Switzerland if, and only if, the Palestinian side showed willingness to live side by side with Israelis. This has consistently not been the case however, in the video above you see six year olds attacking a mock Israeli outpost. Look at the postures of those kids, how they handle their guns, how they move about. These aren't children playing. They know how to hold and handle a gun and how to conduct military operations at the age of six. This sort of psychological programing this early on is irreversable. For a one state solution to be viable Palestinians need to change their entire social structure and focus today for the one state solution to be viable by 2150.

You still owe me two answers, I'll post them again for your convenience:

I think Palestinians should be granted their own state in between River Jordan and the sea, because _____________________________________________ .

The solution of resettling Palestinians in other Arab countries is not suitable, because _________________________ .


An activist for the Palestinian state between river Jordan and the sea is not credible, unless he can easily answer those two questions with logically consistent answers.

Thus far not one has attempted to do so, not here and not anywhere else. The most one can elicit is ever more pathetic attempts at strawman, such as "Palestinians and Muslims in general are incompatible with western democracies I know. That is why they need to be expunged." or something of that nature.

Once you're unable to justify your positions and your very best counterargument is a logical fallacy you're probably on the wrong side of the argument.

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Old 5th September 2019, 04:03 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Palestinians, with the current attitudes impressed upon them by decades of propaganda, are incompatible with a western democracy that has a significant Jewish presence.
And of course the official position of Israel is also "that demonstrates our historical right as a sovereign people and constitutes a legal basis for the State of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people”

Bibi and the whole government is clear about what role non jews have in Israel. And remember the leading political party defines the entire nation and its populace so here we are.

Quote:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

There are ample grounds to believe a one state solution is not viable no matter what Israelis do - except be genocided upon in one way or another.
And yet Isreal has given up on a two state solution, see Netanyhu on such a thing. Why pretend that such a thing a possibility? It has been getting less and less likely for decades and is a dream it is time to put to bed.
Quote:
I would favor a one state solution like Belgium or Switzerland if, and only if, the Palestinian side showed willingness to live side by side with Israelis. This has consistently not been the case however, in the video above you see six year olds attacking a mock Israeli outpost. Look at the postures of those kids, how they handle their guns, how they move about. These aren't children playing. They know how to hold and handle a gun and how to conduct military operations at the age of six. This sort of psychological programing this early on is irreversable. For a one state solution to be viable Palestinians need to change their entire social structure and focus today for the one state solution to be viable by 2150.

You still owe me two answers, I'll post them again for your convenience:

I think Palestinians should be granted their own state in between River Jordan and the sea, because _____________________________________________ .


Gee why would I claim that when I have called a two state solution dead for ages?
Quote:
The solution of resettling Palestinians in other Arab countries is not suitable, because _________________________ .
Like Hitlers attempts to resettle jews no one wants them. I get it you like ethnic cleansing as a solution and we need to just get behind that and stop pretending that ethnic cleansing is some kind of crime against humanity.
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Old 5th September 2019, 04:24 AM   #111
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course the official position of Israel is also "that demonstrates our historical right as a sovereign people and constitutes a legal basis for the State of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people”

Bibi and the whole government is clear about what role non jews have in Israel. And remember the leading political party defines the entire nation and its populace so here we are.
Lots of people say lots of things. The fact one political party claims Israel has justifications above and beyond the very rational "they have nowhere else to go" doesn't mean that justification is somehow invalid.

Quote:
And yet Isreal has given up on a two state solution, see Netanyhu on such a thing. Why pretend that such a thing a possibility? It has been getting less and less likely for decades and is a dream it is time to put to bed.
A two state solution that leaves Israel without defensible frontiers has been dead for over 40 years. Thank that Arabs for that one.

Quote:
Gee why would I claim that when I have called a two state solution dead for ages?
I have no idea why you would. Answers are supposed to end in either a comma or perhaps an exclamation mark. If they end with a question mark they're questions, not answers.

Let's try this again, attempt use the following template for a change:

I think Palestinians should be granted their own state in between River Jordan and the sea, because _____________________________________________ .

How hard can it be?

Quote:
Like Hitlers attempts to resettle jews no one wants them. I get it you like ethnic cleansing as a solution and we need to just get behind that and stop pretending that ethnic cleansing is some kind of crime against humanity.
Ethnic cleansing of the kind I suggested has been seen as a suitable solution for the exact same problem in Algeria (Jews and Frenchmen), Egypt (Jews), Syria (Jews), Iraq (Jews), Morocco (Jews), Tunisia (Jews), Iran (Jews), Yemen (Jews), Pakistan (Hindus) and India (Muslims), just to name a few. I can name more, but I think the list above is sufficient.

But to suggest it's a suitable solution for Palestinians it's a crime against humanity that must never be perpetrated against anyone.

Right. Why was it suitable for all the others, including a substantial proportions of the inhabitants of Israel? "How do we know if something is the OK or NOT OK kind of genocide?"

I can write you a template if you want. Here:
I know the genocide against the Jews in the Arab world was the OK kind of genocide, because _______________________ . Furthermore, I think the same kind of genocide against the Palestinians would be NOT OK, because _______________________ .

Feel free to answer as soon as you're able!

You can also explain why taking land from Jordan and Egypt - the two countries responsible for losing 'Palestinian homeland' shouldn't be made to cough up land for their new homeland. Fair is fair, after all. It's not like someone else lost said land.

McHrozni
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Old 5th September 2019, 06:42 AM   #112
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Lots of people say lots of things. The fact one political party claims Israel has justifications above and beyond the very rational "they have nowhere else to go" doesn't mean that justification is somehow invalid.
That is the official government position and law. All Israelis learning it and are required to answer as such on tests. This upsets the non jewish israelis but no one cares about them and really they don't matter anyway.


Quote:
Ethnic cleansing of the kind I suggested has been seen as a suitable solution for the exact same problem in Algeria (Jews and Frenchmen), Egypt (Jews), Syria (Jews), Iraq (Jews), Morocco (Jews), Tunisia (Jews), Iran (Jews), Yemen (Jews), Pakistan (Hindus) and India (Muslims), just to name a few. I can name more, but I think the list above is sufficient.
Which is why we need to stop being all upset about this BS rohygya "genocide" it is just normal and acceptable ethnic cleansing.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:33 AM   #113
Craig B
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I have no problem if Jordan and Egypt grant the inheritable right to return to Jordan and Egypt for anyone they seem fit.

Jews, for example.
Neither have I any problem about Jews returning to Egypt or any other place they left either willingly or under compulsion. Let them return with at least the rights given to Sephardim by Spain, or more rights than that. I would like to see that. The disappearance of Jewish communities in Egypt and other Muslim countries has been a cultural loss of immense magnitude for the world. Any project to undo this loss has my full support. This applies to the destruction of Jewish Spain, which is why I welcome the restoration of the rights of descendants of emigrants returning to that country, even after a delay of several centuries.

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Old 5th September 2019, 10:18 PM   #114
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is the official government position and law. All Israelis learning it and are required to answer as such on tests. This upsets the non jewish israelis but no one cares about them and really they don't matter anyway.
It doesn't mean that's the sole reason why Israel might want to have a state.
Not that there is a justification for a Palestinian state or anything. You know, the thing you should be pushing if you are to answer the very basic, very simple questions?

Quote:
Which is why we need to stop being all upset about this BS rohygya "genocide" it is just normal and acceptable ethnic cleansing.
Why the focus on Rohygya? There is a much more relevant example of acceptable ethnic cleansing: the flight of Jews from the Arab world.

There is no outrage over that attrocity. Somehow that was accepted as the "OK kind of genocide". Can you justify that attitude?

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Old 5th September 2019, 10:24 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Neither have I any problem about Jews returning to Egypt or any other place they left either willingly or under compulsion. Let them return with at least the rights given to Sephardim by Spain, or more rights than that. I would like to see that. The disappearance of Jewish communities in Egypt and other Muslim countries has been a cultural loss of immense magnitude for the world. Any project to undo this loss has my full support. This applies to the destruction of Jewish Spain, which is why I welcome the restoration of the rights of descendants of emigrants returning to that country, even after a delay of several centuries.
I don't have any problem with Jews going whereever. However, given the treatment they recieve on the hands of various activists for peace and equality of nations (most of whom would consider killing all Jews to be an acceptable compromise for peace), I think Israel should be seen as an insurance policy. The world community in general and the Arab world in particular have demonstrated to be untrustworthy and unwilling to treat the Jews with fairness. Therefore the Jews, perhaps uniquely among all nations, must have their own ethno-state, until such time as the rest of the world, in particular the Arab world, redeems itself and proves it is ready and able to treat Jews equal to other nations.

That same world has no problem explicitly granting Palestinians the rights explicitly denied to Jews, in the name of equality. If you don't consider that weird and are not bothered by the disparity, you're one of the many reasons why Israel must stay, come what may.

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Old 6th September 2019, 11:58 AM   #116
Craig B
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I don't have any problem with Jews going whereever. However, given the treatment they recieve on the hands of various activists for peace and equality of nations (most of whom would consider killing all Jews to be an acceptable compromise for peace), I think Israel should be seen as an insurance policy. The world community in general and the Arab world in particular have demonstrated to be untrustworthy and unwilling to treat the Jews with fairness. Therefore the Jews, perhaps uniquely among all nations, must have their own ethno-state, until such time as the rest of the world, in particular the Arab world, redeems itself and proves it is ready and able to treat Jews equal to other nations.

That same world has no problem explicitly granting Palestinians the rights explicitly denied to Jews, in the name of equality. If you don't consider that weird and are not bothered by the disparity, you're one of the many reasons why Israel must stay, come what may.

McHrozni
This is all nonsense, impossible to comment on. It indicates that Zionism can no longer be defended coherently.
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Old 7th September 2019, 03:50 AM   #117
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
This is all nonsense, impossible to comment on. It indicates that Zionism can no longer be defended coherently.
Made perfect sense to me.
What exactly are you having trouble understanding?
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Old 7th September 2019, 08:57 PM   #118
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Made perfect sense to me.
What exactly are you having trouble understanding?
Your post contains no substantive facts or reasoning, merely personal comment and attempted provocation - a crude misdirection bid - so it confirms the the observation I made in my previous post.
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Old 8th September 2019, 02:03 AM   #119
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
This is all nonsense, impossible to comment on. It indicates that Zionism can no longer be defended coherently.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Your post contains no substantive facts or reasoning, merely personal comment and attempted provocation - a crude misdirection bid
I'll let you answer your own point.
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Old 8th September 2019, 03:52 AM   #120
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I'll let you answer your own point.
Thwnk you, I knew I would be required to, as I wasn't expecting an answer from you.
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