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Tags Boston incidents , Kyle Chapman , Mark Sahady , white nationalists

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Old 10th September 2019, 04:11 PM   #681
Checkmite
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Do you think "brown people" are the only ones being turned away and this only happens at the southern border?
"Brown people" are, in fact, the only ones being subject to enforcement raids inside the US.

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only kinds of people whose citizenship status has automatically been checked during/after contact with police for completely unrelated circumstances, including as witnesses and victims of crime.

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only ones who have been randomly stopped in traffic and subject to citizenship checks by certain law enforcement agencies.

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only ones subject to incarceration in concentration camps while immigration proceedings are being undertaken.

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people who have been arrested and deported after honorably serving in the United States military, including in foreign deployments.

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people whose legal citizenship proof has been rejected by immigration authorities, resulting in their incarceration and deportation despite being U.S. citizens.
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Old 10th September 2019, 04:20 PM   #682
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
"Brown people" are, in fact, the only ones being subject to enforcement raids inside the US.

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only kinds of people whose citizenship status has automatically been checked during/after contact with police for completely unrelated circumstances, including as witnesses and victims of crime.

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only ones who have been randomly stopped in traffic and subject to citizenship checks by certain law enforcement agencies.

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only ones subject to incarceration in concentration camps while immigration proceedings are being undertaken.

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people who have been arrested and deported after honorably serving in the United States military, including in foreign deployments.

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people whose legal citizenship proof has been rejected by immigration authorities, resulting in their incarceration and deportation despite being U.S. citizens.
Additionally,

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people who have have their children and babies ripped away from them at the border.

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people who have been incarcerated in concreted floored wire cages under conditions where they are denied the most basic of human dignity, and effectively forced live in their own filth.
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Old 10th September 2019, 04:31 PM   #683
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Additionally,

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people who have have their children and babies ripped away from them at the border.

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people who have been incarcerated in concreted floored wire cages under conditions where they are denied the most basic of human dignity, and effectively forced live in their own filth.
Continuing:

"Brown people", specifically young children, including some too young to understand what's going on, too young to actually speak, or even too young to physically stand up, are the only children being forced to represent themselves at immigration trials.

"Brown people" are the only ones who have been deported while their children are adopted out to foster families in the US, and whose pleas for their children to be returned to them are rejected by US courts.
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Old 10th September 2019, 04:53 PM   #684
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Am I taking crazy pills, or could our country still be in an unacceptable state of authoritarian fascism without having Nazi style death camps?

Every authoritarian state is unique, and certain elements may not be present in each.

I doubt we'd have camps with mass killings and ovens. Today's fascist is much more likely to utilized our overly aggressive police state and abysmal prison system to imprison or chase off our "undesirables".

A fascist state without a modern Holocaust is still an extremely undesirable outcome. Genocide is the most extreme failure, but by no means is that the sole measuring stick.

Sure, the hardest edge of the far right is still a fairly small portion of the public. But willing enablers of their policies exist in droves. Plenty of "mainstream" right wingers are deeply suspicious of foreigners, unsympathetic to the needs of the disadvantaged, are terrified of white Christians losing hegemony, and crave decisive "action" to address these concerns. These people might not be willing to draft the extremely malicious policies that result in misery for large swaths of people, but they may be willing to rationalize or ignore that misery to achieve their own political goals. A fascist state doesn't require a nation of Stephen Millers, it just requires a citizenry willing to tolerate Stephen Miller. That all adds up to something very dark, and it's not panic mongering to point that out.
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Old 10th September 2019, 05:57 PM   #685
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
"Brown people" are, in fact, the only ones being subject to enforcement raids inside the US.

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only kinds of people whose citizenship status has automatically been checked during/after contact with police for completely unrelated circumstances, including as witnesses and victims of crime.

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only ones who have been randomly stopped in traffic and subject to citizenship checks by certain law enforcement agencies.

"Brown people" are, in fact, the only ones subject to incarceration in concentration camps while immigration proceedings are being undertaken.

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people who have been arrested and deported after honorably serving in the United States military, including in foreign deployments.

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people whose legal citizenship proof has been rejected by immigration authorities, resulting in their incarceration and deportation despite being U.S. citizens.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Additionally,

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people who have have their children and babies ripped away from them at the border.

"Brown people" have been, in fact, the only class of people who have been incarcerated in concreted floored wire cages under conditions where they are denied the most basic of human dignity, and effectively forced live in their own filth.
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Continuing:

"Brown people", specifically young children, including some too young to understand what's going on, too young to actually speak, or even too young to physically stand up, are the only children being forced to represent themselves at immigration trials.

"Brown people" are the only ones who have been deported while their children are adopted out to foster families in the US, and whose pleas for their children to be returned to them are rejected by US courts.
And yet they just won't stop coming.
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:10 PM   #686
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
And yet they just won't stop coming.
...and nor should they!

Just like every other civilised country in the world, the USA has an agreed-to legal and moral obligation to take in refugees and asylum seekers. They even boast about it on their so-called "Statue of Liberty"

The only reason they don't meet that obligation is because you have a racist and white supremacist scumbag as a President - one who has legally sanctioned the inhumane treatment of "brown people" in order to make himself look good to your friends in his racist base.
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Old 10th September 2019, 07:10 PM   #687
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The only reason they don't meet that obligation is because you have a racist and white supremacist scumbag as a President - one who has legally sanctioned the inhumane treatment of "brown people" in order to make himself look good to your friends in his racist base.
And yet they just won't stop coming.
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Old 10th September 2019, 08:10 PM   #688
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
And yet they just won't stop coming.
I understand that you're upset about what seems like an endless stream of people coming to what you think of as "your" country, who look and speak and think so differently from you. Being surrounded by people who are visibly "different" certainly can be confusing or even intimidating to someone who is used to living in a homogeneous environment. But sooner or later you'll have to come to terms with the fact that a majority of the population of your country is okay with these immigrants coming, and wants them to come.
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Old 10th September 2019, 08:24 PM   #689
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
...Which is a new plan. At this point, your argument seems to be that most of these people are just LARPers who can't actually accomplish their goals, so it's not worth worrying about them;
No, my argument is still what I've said it is. If you like to walk things around, I have a dog here that would like to make your acquaintance.

I have said over and over that I don't think the majority have political goals. Whether or not they could achieve them is irrelevant if they don't have them. That is my objection to the nazi label; nazis were primarily fascists seeking political power. The white power guys don't seem oriented to that at all (with minuscule exceptions). I don't think they want the White House in the USA, for instance. Their smaller brains have smaller objectives.

By way of analogy, you are arguing that all/most white supremacist groups are ultimately fascist ethnostate nazis at heart and should be treated as such. Is Senator Sanders ultimately a communist? Is a jaywalker ultimately an insurrectionist? Having one trait does not necessarily mean you harbor the extreme at your core. A racist uncle at Thanksgiving is not ultimately the SS. I think your argument is everyone of these guys is a little Hitler just waiting for the right moment to strike. It's like some rejected Doctor Who plot. Some are just racist dingleberries, nothing more.

Quote:
...what we should be really worried about are the stochastic terrorists.
Well, yeah. More of a live threat than the Incelebration marchers, yeah.

Quote:
The thing is, those two groups you seem to think are different have largely the same goals, use the same rhetoric, and listen to the same people. Mason among them, who started as a bog-standard Rockwell acolyte, then shifted to promoting stochastic terrorism as a way of starting a race war and accomplishing the same basic goal that Spencer talks about. They want the same thing, Mason is just the one that's more upfront with his plan, by design (Spencer's goal is normalizing the movement and making it palatable to average people).
I don't think there are two groups. I think there are a lot more than two. By far the smallest, way over there, playing with themselves in the corner, are actual nazis. Our mighty foe Mason is...working at Kmart, living in an apartment with multiple convictions, according to your podcast? This is the commander of the largest white supremacist group in the country, the New Hitler? Yeah, I don't think I'm underestimating the fascist movement. Looks about as flaccid as you get.

Quote:
I guess fundamentally we just see this ideology differently. You're framing the "groups" as separate things and I don't think they are. To me, it doesn't matter if you're not a member of the AWD or some other faction that has committed terrorist attacks; saying you want the same goals and endorsing the message isn't different in any functionally meaningful way. That's not histrionics. Either way, you're supporting violent action for the ultimate goal of creating a fascist ethnostate, and I can't see that as inconsequential, because it's how people are being radicalized into the thing you do consider a problem. That's the way those groups work now.
To highlight our differences: some people walk around the block for an evening's exercise. Some people train for ultramarathons and Ironman Tris. Not everyone harbors the extreme in their core, or even desires it.
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Old 10th September 2019, 08:37 PM   #690
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
So if I summarize your argument, it comes to:

You know that there are some that DO want cleansing\genocide. You also believe that the majority do NOT want genocide\cleansing. You do NOT believe these people are a threat because they don't have the ability or numbers to do any major damage. In your opinion these people should be watched, but largely ignored.

Do I have that correct?
Close. Very close. Assuming you mean the minority group in the second part, I don't think they have the numbers, ability, smarts, support, conviction, stamina, or even charm to carry out their objectives. But under no circumstances should they be ignored. One lone whacko with a gun is deadly serious, as we see in the news every day. Never, ever ignore them. Just don't lump every MAGA hat wearer in with the Rise of the Reich.

RE the actual, genuine nazi or near nazis: be ready to drop the hammer on them at a seconds notice. Never ignore them, or give them an inch more than they are Constitutionally entitled to. But until they cross that line...well, we do value freedom of speech, even in these catch-22 situations.
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Old 10th September 2019, 08:39 PM   #691
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Also, Cavemonster started another thread on this topic called Proud Boys and Nazis and Alt-right Oh My in SI&CI. Since we are drifting off topic here, meet you over there for this discussion.
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Old 10th September 2019, 09:21 PM   #692
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
And yet they just won't stop coming.
So did my ancestors. So, I'm guessing, did yours. I don't fault anyone for wanting a better life, and a brighter future for their children. And nation as mighty as the US should welcome them as best we are able. My grandmother fled Germany when a certain party was rising to power. The Greatest Nation in the World opened it's arms.

It's a fair argument to weed out the criminals and 'moochers' though.

It's not a fair argument that the country that brought my grandmom through Ellis Island should set up concentration camps and cage children alone
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Old 10th September 2019, 10:58 PM   #693
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
So did my ancestors. So, I'm guessing, did yours. I don't fault anyone for wanting a better life, and a brighter future for their children. And nation as mighty as the US should welcome them as best we are able. My grandmother fled Germany when a certain party was rising to power. The Greatest Nation in the World opened it's arms.

It's a fair argument to weed out the criminals and 'moochers' though.

It's not a fair argument that the country that brought my grandmom through Ellis Island should set up concentration camps and cage children alone

Yeah, but your grandmother was probably not one of the mud people. If Mexican's were white conservatives, people like Baylor would have no objection to them entering the country.
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Old 10th September 2019, 11:03 PM   #694
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I understand that you're upset about what seems like an endless stream of people coming to what you think of as "your" country, who look and speak and think so differently from you. Being surrounded by people who are visibly "different" certainly can be confusing or even intimidating to someone who is used to living in a homogeneous environment. But sooner or later you'll have to come to terms with the fact that a majority of the population of your country is okay with these immigrants coming, and wants them to come.
How pathetically pretentious.
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Old 10th September 2019, 11:07 PM   #695
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
So did my ancestors. So, I'm guessing, did yours. I don't fault anyone for wanting a better life, and a brighter future for their children. And nation as mighty as the US should welcome them as best we are able. My grandmother fled Germany when a certain party was rising to power. The Greatest Nation in the World opened it's arms.
Okay. So what? This wasn't even what was being argued. This is a common tactic among boomers here. Once they've reached a dead end, they pretend that an entirely different discussion was taking place.

We were discussing the alleged mistreatment of illegal aliens. People don't go to great lengths to be abused. Jews didn't travel thousands of miles on foot just to live in Nazi occupied territory. Internet histrionics mean nothing. Actions speak louder than pseudointellectual message boards.
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Old 10th September 2019, 11:24 PM   #696
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Okay. So what? This wasn't even what was being argued. This is a common tactic among boomers here. Once they've reached a dead end, they pretend that an entirely different discussion was taking place.

We were discussing the alleged mistreatment of illegal aliens. People don't go to great lengths to be abused. Jews didn't travel thousands of miles on foot just to live in Nazi occupied territory. Internet histrionics mean nothing. Actions speak louder than pseudointellectual message boards.
Okay. They keep coming. Of course they do. Even receiving poor treatment at the border, assuming they have the savvy to be aware of that, they are still incentivized to escape from worse abuse in their homeland.

Why would that justify locking their children in cages and denying them toothbrushes? No matter what drove them here, we are still the United States. It has been said that a nation can be judged by how it treats the most vulnerable.

BTW, my parents were boomers, not me.
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:06 AM   #697
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Who exactly is a Nazi/Racist is the problem we have here.
I am conviced, from the tone of their posts, that some people would define as a Nazi or racist anybody who is not on the left wing of the political spectrum.
Can I get a specific example (a quote with link to it) of this "tone"?

I don't think you can. When dudalb is convinced that ought to be good enough for the rest of us ...
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:13 AM   #698
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'd have a lot of interview searching to do to prove that President Trump does not advocate, say, puppy raping. Spencer and his cronies have very publicly affirmed that they do not endorse any type of killing. But proving a negative is notoriously difficult. I'll concede that I am not willing to interview-mine to give you an example.
Richard Spencer wants "peaceful ethnic cleansing" That's good, right?


Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This guy, you mean?

https://jeffschoep.com/jeffschoep/

Soooo...this is the guy whose beliefs you want to examine? Doesn't he not really qualify, not identifying as a nazi anymore?

He led the largest nazi group n the US...with a national membership of about 400. It's collapsing now, under the leadership of a black man (great guy). Yeah, not exactly quaking in my boots if this is what you are in fear of.
I thought it was his beliefs we were going to analyze, not the fact that he's jumped ship. Was he or was he not a proper Nazi? He says he was. What do you think?

(Please note that we're not talking a distant past here, but less than a year.)


Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Who is that? What credible professionals claim to correctly analyze the psyche of the writer of a few anonymous postings? Oh, and make sure they say the analysis can be carried out by someone who presents no credentials or expertise in the subject. You know, like the poster in question does.
Nope.



Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
When your posting style is to be arrogant and condescending, peppered with veiled insults, refusing to engage honestly, and inevitably flouncing when challenged, you don't really have a lot of room to accuse others of insults.
Then why do you?
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:54 AM   #699
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
How pathetically pretentious.

Actually, he wasn't being pretentious, he was being condescending - towards you... and IMO, it was thoroughly deserved..
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:10 AM   #700
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
And yet they just won't stop coming.
Like the dumb jews on the st louis trying to flee germany. Fools.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:33 AM   #701
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yeah, but your grandmother was probably not one of the mud people. If Mexican's were white conservatives, people like Baylor would have no objection to them entering the country.
One of the weirdest things is that if the right wing of the US hadn't really embraced racism, they could have had massive allies in Mexican immigrants. Most are Catholic and most would buy in hard for the old GOPs anti abortion, "family values" stances.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:55 AM   #702
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
One of the weirdest things is that if the right wing of the US hadn't really embraced racism, they could have had massive allies in Mexican immigrants. Most are Catholic and most would buy in hard for the old GOPs anti abortion, "family values" stances.
100%, but they just can't get over their irrational, childish fear of "the other"!
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:06 AM   #703
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
One of the weirdest things is that if the right wing of the US hadn't really embraced racism, they could have had massive allies in Mexican immigrants. Most are Catholic and most would buy in hard for the old GOPs anti abortion, "family values" stances.
You are forgetting that to the extreme protestant Christian churches Roman Catholics are the devil's servants. And I'm not exaggerating. Immigrants, brown and RC, lucky Trump isn't nuking them!
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:16 AM   #704
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Richard Spencer wants "peaceful ethnic cleansing" That's good, right?
No. But it is not advocating genocide, which was the topic.


Quote:
I thought it was his beliefs we were going to analyze, not the fact that he's jumped ship. Was he or was he not a proper Nazi? He says he was. What do you think?

(Please note that we're not talking a distant past here, but less than a year.)
As the former leader of the largest (snicker) American neo-nazi group...er, collapsing neo-nazi group, sure. I guess you could call him a proper nazi. In fact, you could probably assume he is the most extreme of them all. Presumably his views on genocide would be over-the-top. I didn't see any on his SPLC page or elsewhere, perhaps you are familiar?


Quote:
Nope.
Great, thanks. Much clearer.

Quote:
Then why do you?
So that that poster gets a little taste of what their pissiness adds to the discussion.
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:23 AM   #705
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No. But it is not advocating genocide, which was the topic.
I get a bit worried whenever Spencer discusses the Jewish Question, but I suppose as long as he doesn't outright state that all Jews should be killed it's nothing to bother with.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
As the former leader of the largest (snicker) American neo-nazi group...er, collapsing neo-nazi group, sure. I guess you could call him a proper nazi. In fact, you could probably assume he is the most extreme of them all. Presumably his views on genocide would be over-the-top. I didn't see any on his SPLC page or elsewhere, perhaps you are familiar?
Ok, so there's one who you would admit was a proper Nazi. Should we try to find another one?

Andrew Anglin? Nazi or not?
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:34 AM   #706
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I get a bit worried whenever Spencer discusses the Jewish Question, but I suppose as long as he doesn't outright state that all Jews should be killed it's nothing to bother with.
That's fair. These guys can be assumed to be less than honest.But the flip side is, how else do we evaluate them? Innuendo? Projection? Assumption?

Quote:
Ok, so there's one who you would admit was a proper Nazi. Should we try to find another one?

Andrew Anglin? Nazi or not?
Whoa whoa whoa, where you goin? We're not making a Who's Who list; you chose one to scrutinize their claims. Ok, you freely picked Schoep, so I guess this guy is your slam-dunk knock-it-out-of-the park genocidal maniac. So. What are his claims on the subject of genocide?
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:38 AM   #707
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Whoa whoa whoa, where you goin? We're not making a Who's Who list; you chose one to scrutinize their claims. Ok, you freely picked Schoep, so I guess this guy is your slam-dunk knock-it-out-of-the park genocidal maniac. So. What are his claims on the subject of genocide?
I wasn't working that angle. I was working the "Nazi or not" angle. And I picked Shoepp at random from the SPLC list of prominent Nazis. Can I assume that you agree that everyone on that list is a proper Nazi?


His views on genocide are presumably the same as all other Nazis. It's embedded in the ideology.
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:44 AM   #708
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I wasn't working that angle. I was working the "Nazi or not" angle. And I picked Shoepp at random from the SPLC list of prominent Nazis. Can I assume that you agree that everyone on that list is a proper Nazi?


His views on genocide are presumably the same as all other Nazis. It's embedded in the ideology.
FFS, that's exactly what we are arguing about!

I asked that we stop theorizing what modern nazis think, and actually pick one to analyze their claims.

You offered Schoep.

Now you say 'JK, I'm just making lists!"

Come on, man
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:47 AM   #709
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
FFS, that's exactly what we are arguing about!

I asked that we stop theorizing what modern nazis think, and actually pick one to analyze their claims.

You offered Schoep.

Now you say 'JK, I'm just making lists!"

Come on, man
Ok, let's do it then. I'll let you find a Nazi that doesn't espouse genocide. That is, a self-described Nazi that is against genocide.

Remember, the default position for everyone - but you, seemingly - is that it is part of Nazi ideology to be pro-genocide.

Because I tried to find a Nazi that was against genocide and I failed.
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:47 AM   #710
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No. But it is not advocating genocide, which was the topic.

Hitler's Endlösung didn't really start till 1941:

Quote:
Between 1941 and 1945, across German-occupied Europe, Nazi Germany and its collaborators systematically murdered some six million Jews, around two-thirds of Europe's Jewish population. The murders were carried out in pogroms and mass shootings; by a policy of extermination through labour in concentration camps; and in gas chambers and gas vans in German extermination camps, chiefly Auschwitz, Bełżec, Chełmno, Majdanek, Sobibór, and Treblinka in occupied Poland.
Germany implemented the persecution in stages. Following Adolf Hitler's appointment as Chancellor on 30 January 1933, the regime built a network of concentration camps in Germany for political opponents and those deemed "undesirable", starting with Dachau on 22 March 1933.
The Holocaust (Wikipedia)

And I don't think that he ever openly committed to genocide, which is why even some Jews were able to convince themselves that it was never going to happen, and some Germans could remain in denial about it - just like you now.
You are digging your own grave with this argument. Be grateful that it's just metaphorically.
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:56 AM   #711
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Because I tried to find a Nazi that was against genocide and I failed.

Let me help you with that:

Quote:
Neo-Nazis Against 'Genocide'
Led by neo-Nazi webmaster Alex Linder, a group of about 30 neo-Nazis gathered in Knoxville May 26 for a "Rally Against Genocide" organized in the names of Christian and Newsom. At least one of the demonstrators wore a swastika T-shirt.
KILLING OF KNOXVILLE, TENN. COUPLE EXPLOITED TO ATTACK BLACKS (SPLC, Oct. 01, 2007)

Of course, they are obviously insincere. What they mean is that they, i.e. in their ****** up brains, the white race, are the victims of genocide.
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:58 AM   #712
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Let me help you with that:




Of course, they are obviously insincere. What they mean is that they, i.e. in their ****** up brains, the white race, are the victims of genocide.
That's why it was so tedious to look for Nazis who are against genocide. I kept finding this kind of ****.

That said, I didn't actually expect to find anything.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:07 AM   #713
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No. But it is not advocating genocide, which was the topic.
Like with the Rohingya. Not genocide just ethnic cleansing and people need to stop being so hyperbolic that there is really anything wrong with that.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:10 AM   #714
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Ok, let's do it then. I'll let you find a Nazi that doesn't espouse genocide. That is, a self-described Nazi that is against genocide.
You're bobbing and weaving again. I already conceded that it would be time consuming for me to prove the negative, although we both know they do openly oppose it, but as you just said to dann, you simply handwave it. Saves me the trouble, I guess. But I think we can agree that anyone endorsing genocide is going to be less than forthright about it publicly?

Quote:
Remember, the default position for everyone - but you, seemingly - is that it is part of Nazi ideology to be pro-genocide.

Because I tried to find a Nazi that was against genocide and I failed.
Oh for christs sake. Even SLPC in their definition acknowledges that they are inconsistent in their core beliefs. That's what we are arguing about. You can't just declare your opinion correct without evidence. There is a term for that.

Spencer is a neo-nazi. Agreed? Spencer publicly advocates against violence. Agreed? So your statement is factually false, unless you handwave it.

Now back to Schoep, who you offered. What are...er, were... his public opinions on genocide?
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:13 AM   #715
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Hitler's Endlösung didn't really start till 1941:




And I don't think that he ever openly committed to genocide, which is why even some Jews were able to convince themselves that it was never going to happen, and some Germans could remain in denial about it - just like you now.
You are digging your own grave with this argument. Be grateful that it's just metaphorically.
You are still begging the question. Your argument assumes unbroken ideology identical to the Germans.

My argument, and that of SPLC, is that they are not consistent.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:21 AM   #716
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Spencer publicly advocates against violence.

He does? And what does he do privately?

Quote:
Colin Liddell, who was a prime blogger for AlternativeRight.com that was created by Richard Spencer, was known for his controversial articles. This included ones that questioned the history of the Holocaust, as well as bluntly put his belief that black people were barely better than animals. While Spencer was still the editor of the website, he published an article by Liddell called “Is Black Genocide Right?”

Quote:
Instead of asking how we can make reparations for slavery, colonialism, and Apartheid or how we can equalize academic scores and incomes, we should instead be asking questions like, “Does human civilization actually need the Black race?” “Is Black genocide right?” and, if it is, “What would be the best and easiest way to dispose of them?” With starting points like this, wisdom is sure to flourish, enlightenment to dawn.

As we know, the world is becoming increasingly over-populated, while at the same time vital resources are being rapidly depleted. The world will be unable to support much of its future projected population growth. In fact we are probably heading for a great ‘die off’ in which hundreds of millions of our kind will cease to be.
With Europeans and some Asians having much less children, most of the population growth leading to this future crisis is projected to come from Africans. This is the race that history and the present example of South Africa proves is least able to take care of itself; a race that has contributed almost nothing to the pool of civilization and which even shows little inclination to stay within the bounds of that civilization; a race that also seems to harbor a potent inferiority complex and savage hatred towards the creators of that civilization.
The Alt-Right Goes Full Genocide (Anti-Fascist News, April 2017)
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:28 AM   #717
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You are still begging the question. Your argument assumes unbroken ideology identical to the Germans.

No, it assumes no such thing. Your argument assumes that if people don't outright say that they want genocide and even if they say it, but they don't have an actual plan, then they can't possibly want racist genocide.

Quote:
My argument, and that of SPLC, is that they are not consistent.

Nobody has claimed "unbroken ideology", and I have several times mentioned why American Nazis don't want to annex the Sudetenland, for instance, and how some them would like to replace the persecution of Jews with the persecution of Muslims (or blacks).
Your "unbroken ideology" idea is a childish attempt to defend your argument.
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:51 AM   #718
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, it assumes no such thing. Your argument assumes that if people don't outright say that they want genocide and even if they say it, but they don't have an actual plan, then they can't possibly want racist genocide.
dann, our opinions on these guys are almost identical, except that I think it's important not to drown the arguments in hyperbole.

The SPLC agrees with me, that neo-nazis are inconsistent with their beliefs. Just based on what I believe about human nature, I don't assume they are genocidal, or even wannabe genocidal, without a pretty slam-dunk reason. You do. I guess that's an agree to disagree impasse.


Quote:
Nobody has claimed "unbroken ideology", and I have several times mentioned why American Nazis don't want to annex the Sudetenland, for instance, and how some them would like to replace the persecution of Jews with the persecution of Muslims (or blacks).
Your "unbroken ideology" idea is a childish attempt to defend your argument.
And...yet again...you handwave away my own description of them, which intentionally divorces modern nazis from their German forerunners.

But you still see genocide as a core belief, unbroken in ideology from the Germans. I don't. I think they pick and choose their hate, just like the SLPC claims. Again, I think that is an impasse to this discussion. You handwave it all away and twist my argument to one you are more comfortable arguing. See ya on the next one.
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Old 11th September 2019, 08:44 AM   #719
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You are still begging the question. Your argument assumes unbroken ideology identical to the Germans.

My argument, and that of SPLC, is that they are not consistent.
To be fair neither were the german nazis.
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Old 11th September 2019, 08:46 AM   #720
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
dann, our opinions on these guys are almost identical, except that I think it's important not to drown the arguments in hyperbole.

The SPLC agrees with me, that neo-nazis are inconsistent with their beliefs. Just based on what I believe about human nature, I don't assume they are genocidal, or even wannabe genocidal, without a pretty slam-dunk reason. You do. I guess that's an agree to disagree impasse.
Just like the national socialist german workers party see this article

https://www.nytimes.com/1922/11/21/a...ited-with.html
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