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Tags Allan Kardec , life after death , spiritism , spiritualism

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Old 16th August 2019, 11:42 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Is there anything more desperate than this thought of utter destruction? Holy affections, intelligence, progress, laboriously acquired knowledge, everything will be annihilated, everything will be lost! What is the need of the effort to become better, the repression to contain your passions, to be tired to adorn your Spirit, if you must not recollect it? no fruit, above all, with the thought that tomorrow maybe this will do us no good? If so, man's luck would be a hundred times worse than that of the animal, because the animal lives entirely in the present, in the satisfaction of its material appetites, without aspiration for the future. A secret intuition says this is not possible.

Argument from incredulity.
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:43 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
can i recommend books in english language you want? reading will answer these questions ok

It was reading the claims in that kind of book that raised questions such as the one I posted.

If your own understanding of the material comes from reading those books, then you should be able to post an answer (or at least, a summary or synopsis of that answer) based on that understanding. That would provide evidence that the material in the books actually does address the question.

That's why I specified, I'll read recommended books if and when they relate to a discussion we're already having. We're not at that stage yet. "Go read a book" is not how to begin a discussion.
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:47 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
and what is your religion or ideology?

Why do you need to know?
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:49 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
Marcus Aurelius. He addressed this question some time ago:

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”

That works for me.
Seconded.

Unfortunately, I have first hand knowledge of checking out and being brought back. I was absolutely gone - no heartbeat or respiration.

No bright lights, beckoning relatives or welcoming spirits. No folks with wings or long white beards

On 23 July last year I lost my best friend and drummer. Both myself and our guitarist set up a secret word for him to let us know if there's life after death.

No word so far.
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:51 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
It was reading the claims in that kind of book that raised questions such as the one I posted.

If your own understanding of the material comes from reading those books, then you should be able to post an answer (or at least, a summary or synopsis of that answer) based on that understanding. That would provide evidence that the material in the books actually does address the question.

That's why I specified, I'll read recommended books if and when they relate to a discussion we're already having. We're not at that stage yet. "Go read a book" is not how to begin a discussion.
but do you have any knowledge of the spiritist doctrine?
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:53 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
It was reading the claims in that kind of book that raised questions such as the one I posted.

If your own understanding of the material comes from reading those books, then you should be able to post an answer (or at least, a summary or synopsis of that answer) based on that understanding. That would provide evidence that the material in the books actually does address the question.

That's why I specified, I'll read recommended books if and when they relate to a discussion we're already having. We're not at that stage yet. "Go read a book" is not how to begin a discussion.
it's hard because I'm using google translator ... I'm not american!
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:54 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
answer my question !
Address my answers. You keep asking questions and posting nonsense but you make no effort to address the responses.

Quote:
do you know what spiritualism is?
Yes.

Quote:
what's your ideology?
None.

Quote:
I can recommend you the books ... so it will be easier to discuss with you!
I've been debating with all sorts of woo-woos for 25 years. I think I know what I'm doing.

Quote:
BELZ .. answer me are you an atheist?
Yes.

Quote:
are you skeptical?
Yes.

Quote:
Are you agnostic?
Yes.

Quote:
Why do not you answer ?
I answer all the time but you ignore it. Why should I spend any more energy and time on you?
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:55 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
they need to study about pseudo-skepticism! they don't even know what pseudo-skepticism is!
We know exactly what it is. You're just losing your mind that not everyone is as unskeptical as you are, so you lash out.
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:57 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
this is not spiritist doctrine .. do you want to know what spiritist doctrine really is ...? After studying you will have every right to accept or decline it .. but you will know what it really is!
How about you make your own case about spiritism and what it is? Stop relying on others to make your arguments for you.
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:58 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
it's hard because I'm using google translator ... I'm not american!
Neither am I. If you cannot manage English by yourself you'll never have a fruitful discussion here. I suggest you head to a forum where your own language is spoken for that, or that you learn English first. Otherwise debates will be impossible.
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Old 16th August 2019, 11:59 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Seconded.

Unfortunately, I have first hand knowledge of checking out and being brought back. I was absolutely gone - no heartbeat or respiration.

No bright lights, beckoning relatives or welcoming spirits. No folks with wings or long white beards

On 23 July last year I lost my best friend and drummer. Both myself and our guitarist set up a secret word for him to let us know if there's life after death.

No word so far.
the books are here in these links if you are interested! http://blossomss.org/wp/english/
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:02 PM   #52
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You can download a pdf of Kardeks books, here is one

http://ssbaltimore.org/resources/e-b...irits-book.pdf

Here is a link to several books that can be downloaded as pdf's

http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 16th August 2019 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:04 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Neither am I. If you cannot manage English by yourself you'll never have a fruitful discussion here. I suggest you head to a forum where your own language is spoken for that, or that you learn English first. Otherwise debates will be impossible.
first study about spiritualism ... then I debate with you ... using google translator ..the book link ... you can't discuss with you ... because you don't even know the basics about Spiritist Doctrine ... after you read .. I debate with you! OK http://blossomss.org/wp/english/
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:07 PM   #54
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I have no specific opinions on the nature of the afterlife. If there isn't one, I'll never know it, so there's no point in worrying about it. If there is one, not knowing what to expect will make it more interesting and not having preconceptions will keep me from being disappointed. Imagine if you're expecting bliss and happiness and you instead become a cog in the cosmic bureaucracy that keeps the universe running.
I did read about an afterlife that seemed really pointless. It claimed that the soul is divided into two portions: a mortal portion that dies with the body and an immortal portion that is reincarnated over and over until it is finally able to advance and achieve union with the Godhead. The problem is that memory and personality are contained in the mortal portion of the soul. Everything that makes you "you" dies after you've essentially spent your life serving as the host for an immortal symbiote or parasite.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:07 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Neither am I. If you cannot manage English by yourself you'll never have a fruitful discussion here. I suggest you head to a forum where your own language is spoken for that, or that you learn English first. Otherwise debates will be impossible.
I can quote a phrase from these books for you ... surely you will understand! do you want me to quote for you to analyze?
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:07 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
this is not spiritist doctrine .. do you want to know what spiritist doctrine really is ...? After studying you will have every right to accept or decline it .. but you will know what it really is! do you want me to send you the links of the books in english ... can i see if it has translation to mexican language? Are you a woman or a man?
I am aware that the tv program is utter crap. I use it to learn how to spot the tricks.

I swore off all religion long ago, all other types of pseudo religion also. I need no external guide in life. Thank you.

I am not even sure what a skeptic is by the group here, mainly a loosely defined title of non religious.
Trying to bait with a pseudo skeptic insult is cheap, has no effect when you have not presented much until these last posts.
Much appreciated you have given something to work with.

Thank you, but I am not interested in reading your books by Allan Kardec. I like my void. I will wait for that undeniable event to come and force me to change my way of thinking. If Allan can pull that off I am all in. Until then I'm fine, thanks.

I am a guy, if that helps.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:09 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You can download a pdf of Kardeks books, here is one

http://ssbaltimore.org/resources/e-b...irits-book.pdf

Here is a link to several books that can be downloaded as pdf's

http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/
thank you ! friend
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:12 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
These pseudo-skeptics don't even know about the Spiritist Doctrine ... the debate is over before it begins! Waste of time with pseudo-skeptics!
Well, bye, then. Safe travels.

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Old 16th August 2019, 12:13 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
I watch a program on Mexican tv called Extranormal. It is a set group of investigation and interpretation specialists.

Polished presentation of nothing. Bugs on security camera lens and blurry video only a bigfeetz fan could love and of course testimony from hillbillies with a 3rd grade education. And then they go and investigate. They find tricks of light in glass, wind moving stuff and sounds happening off camera.

And the say pseudo Christian prayers and start fires un the floor to drive off the spirits or demons. They have a exspurt on both after all.

Those spirits? Dead gramma and the moth in the security camera?
http://www.consejoespiritademexico.org/#biblioteca
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:15 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
first study about spiritualism ... then I debate with you ... using google translator ..the book link ... you can't discuss with you ... because you don't even know the basics about Spiritist Doctrine ... after you read .. I debate with you! OK http://blossomss.org/wp/english/
Why would we need to read about Spiritualist Doctrine?

First step is to demonstrate to us that such disembodied spirits actually exist. Once that is established, THEN doctrine may matter.

Discussing doctrine first is putting the cart before the horse.

Present your strongest evidence for the existence of spirits. Be prepared to defend and discuss it.

Wanna bet you neither present a case for spirits, let alone understanding it well enough to discuss.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:15 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
thank you ! friend
NO problem, I will give them a look through. But I am probably the only person here that will bother.

It would be good if you could state your basic beliefs, as you understand them in your own words. To save people here having to read these lengthy books..
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:16 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
I am aware that the tv program is utter crap. I use it to learn how to spot the tricks.

I swore off all religion long ago, all other types of pseudo religion also. I need no external guide in life. Thank you.

I am not even sure what a skeptic is by the group here, mainly a loosely defined title of non religious.
Trying to bait with a pseudo skeptic insult is cheap, has no effect when you have not presented much until these last posts.
Much appreciated you have given something to work with.

Thank you, but I am not interested in reading your books by Allan Kardec. I like my void. I will wait for that undeniable event to come and force me to change my way of thinking. If Allan can pull that off I am all in. Until then I'm fine, thanks.

I am a guy, if that helps.
so don't get into a debate about what you don't know ... in this case .. don't know anything about spiritist doctrine .. pseudo-skeptical attitude debating what you don't know !!
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:19 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
first study about spiritualism ... then I debate with you ... using google translator ..the book link ... you can't discuss with you ... because you don't even know the basics about Spiritist Doctrine [/url]
You really don't read a single word of what people write to you, do you?

What part of "I've debated people like you on these topics for 25 years" don't you understand? Is Google translate really that bad?

I'm under no delusion that you could debate this topic here even if I read the books you suggest, given that you're unable to respond to the simplest points.

Quote:
do you want me to quote for you to analyze?
Either make your own argument, or go away.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:20 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
NO problem, I will give them a look through. But I am probably the only person here that will bother.

It would be good if you could state your basic beliefs, as you understand them in your own words. To save people here having to read these lengthy books..
i don't know the english language .. so it's hard for me ok ... it's a lot to debate and without knowing english it's complicated for me! but ask a question I will try to answer
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:21 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
so don't get into a debate about what you don't know ... in this case .. don't know anything about spiritist doctrine .. pseudo-skeptical attitude debating what you don't know !!
It's pretty clear that you don't know anything about said doctrine, either. Otherwise by now you would've made some sort of an argument. Don't expect people to do your work for you.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:22 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
Want to know my religion? I'm a spiritist ... and what is your ideology or religion? I have to know to debate with you! Another question do you know Spiritism?
You're welcome to whatever delusion you want to believe, but that doesn't mean your belief is fact or that other individuals are beholden to your make-believe.

I've been gone more than once and have seen many deaths.

No trumpets, fairies or godly intervention. When the lights go out that pretty much it.

Interesting fact when Al died of cancer last year lot's of folks had their personal witch doctors with the cure for cancer.

The best I can say about them is that I managed not to commit assault and battery on the worst offenders. Why does "spiritualism" always go with the grift?
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:27 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You really don't read a single word of what people write to you, do you?

What part of "I've debated people like you on these topics for 25 years" don't you understand? Is Google translate really that bad?

I'm under no delusion that you could debate this topic here even if I read the books you suggest, given that you're unable to respond to the simplest points.



Either make your own argument, or go away.
to begin with ... spiritism or spiritist doctrine ..it is not within the purview of science or the scientific community ... you certainly did not know that!
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:30 PM   #68
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so ... don't say ... that there is no empirical evidence of the existence of spirits! If I had read, I would have known it ... but you know nothing about Spiritist doctrine or spiritualism!
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:33 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
so ... don't say ... that there is no empirical evidence of the existence of spirits! If I had read, I would have known it ... but you know nothing about Spiritist doctrine or spiritualism!
I have no difficulty in recognizing claptrap when I encounter it.

The fact that there is a group of deluded folks agreeing with each other doesn't constitute evidence of their delusions.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:35 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
so ... don't say ... that there is no empirical evidence of the existence of spirits! If I had read, I would have known it ... but you know nothing about Spiritist doctrine or spiritualism!
Again, put up evidence for the existence of spirits.

It is apparent you have nothing.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:36 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's pretty clear that you don't know anything about said doctrine, either. Otherwise by now you would've made some sort of an argument. Don't expect people to do your work for you.
an excerpt from Allan Kardec's book of spirits
"Science itself, as a science, therefore, is incompetent to pronounce on the question of Spiritism: it does not have to concern itself with it, and its judgment, whatever it may be, whether favorable or not, could not have any importance."
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:39 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's pretty clear that you don't know anything about said doctrine, either. Otherwise by now you would've made some sort of an argument. Don't expect people to do your work for you.
I want you to read these books ... debating without knowing anything about Spiritist doctrine is a pseudo-skeptical attitude ... a question do you know what perispirit is? don't google it ok!
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:39 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
to begin with ... spiritism or spiritist doctrine ..it is not within the purview of science or the scientific community ... you certainly did not know that!
If spiritist doctrine makes testable claims, it certainly does fall within the purview of scientific evaluation. If it doesn’t make testable claims then there is zero reason to seriously consider it. Why? Because people have made religious and spiritual claims for thousands of years, and none have been shown to be factually correct. Burden of proof: if you assert that x is true, you need to provide supporting evidence. Otherwise there is no reason to take the claim seriously.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:41 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Again, put up evidence for the existence of spirits.

It is apparent you have nothing.
I want you to read these books ... debating without knowing anything about Spiritist doctrine is a pseudo-skeptical attitude ... a question do you know what perispirit is? don't google it ok!
You're another pseudo-skeptic ... talk about what you don't know!
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:43 PM   #75
8enotto
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
so don't get into a debate about what you don't know ... in this case .. don't know anything about spiritist doctrine .. pseudo-skeptical attitude debating what you don't know !!
No aye debate haste el momento. Nada. Doctrine es nada... No substancia pasado palabras a papel.

Un evento, un hecho no personna puede discute. Por favor.

There is no debate yet. Nothing. Doctrine is nothing. no substance past words on paper.

One event, one fact no one can argue with. Please.

Last edited by 8enotto; 16th August 2019 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:44 PM   #76
The Greater Fool
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I want you to read these books ... debating without knowing anything about Spiritist doctrine is a pseudo-skeptical attitude ... a question do you know what perispirit is? don't google it ok!
You're another pseudo-skeptic ... talk about what you don't know!
No, trying to move the disussion to HOW spirits work and should be approached can only be debated AFTER you demonstrate spirits (other than alcoholic) exist.

You're trying to skip ahead. Demonstrate spirits exist, then we can discuss doctrine.

Heck, demonstrate spirits exist, I'll read about them until the cows come home.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:45 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
If spiritist doctrine makes testable claims, it certainly does fall within the purview of scientific evaluation. If it doesn’t make testable claims then there is zero reason to seriously consider it. Why? Because people have made religious and spiritual claims for thousands of years, and none have been shown to be factually correct. Burden of proof: if you assert that x is true, you need to provide supporting evidence. Otherwise there is no reason to take the claim seriously.
You're another pseudo-skeptic ... talk about what you don't know!

Wrong ! an excerpt from Allan Kardec's book of spirits
"Science itself, as a science, therefore, is incompetent to pronounce on the question of Spiritism: it does not have to concern itself with it, and its judgment, whatever it may be, whether favorable or not, could not have any importance."
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:46 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
I want you to read these books ... debating without knowing anything about Spiritist doctrine is a pseudo-skeptical attitude ... a question do you know what perispirit is? don't google it ok!
You're another pseudo-skeptic ... talk about what you don't know!
It's a healthy mental attitude - if you believe you or whatever deluded fellow traveller you want to cite has Big News! proving spirits exist and are reincarnated you're wrong.
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:47 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
You're another pseudo-skeptic ... talk about what you don't know!

Wrong ! an excerpt from Allan Kardec's book of spirits
"Science itself, as a science, therefore, is incompetent to pronounce on the question of Spiritism: it does not have to concern itself with it, and its judgment, whatever it may be, whether favorable or not, could not have any importance."
"Ignore the man behind the curtain"

What do you expect spiritualists to say about a proven philosophy that doesn't support their case?
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Old 16th August 2019, 12:47 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
You're another pseudo-skeptic ... talk about what you don't know!

Wrong ! an excerpt from Allan Kardec's book of spirits
"Science itself, as a science, therefore, is incompetent to pronounce on the question of Spiritism: it does not have to concern itself with it, and its judgment, whatever it may be, whether favorable or not, could not have any importance."
http://ssbaltimore.org/e-books/
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