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Old 10th September 2019, 01:03 PM   #281
pittsburghjoe
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If you have some type of proof against what I said, speak now or forever hold your peace. I'm not interested in whatever game you're trying to play.
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Old 10th September 2019, 01:12 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
If you have some type of proof against what I said, speak now or forever hold your peace. I'm not interested in whatever game you're trying to play.
How are we to take into serious consideration your assertions when you've not master the simplicity of the Quote button?
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Old 10th September 2019, 01:16 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
If you have some type of proof against what I said, speak now or forever hold your peace. I'm not interested in whatever game you're trying to play.
Just explain the uncertainty principle in your own words - no game involved.

Here's a chance to really show your stuff. I can't imagine why you would be reluctant to put your skills in a showcase.
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Old 10th September 2019, 02:31 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by phunk View Post
I don't think you even know what the uncertainty principle is. Could you explain it, in your own words?
Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Any uncertainty principle experiment that shows uncertainty means a wave was involved.
So that's a no?
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Old 10th September 2019, 02:49 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by phunk View Post
So that's a no?
I'm beginning to believe that the material might not even be from the poster-in-question.

It could be cribbed from somewhere or other and the poster on this forum might have thought it was cool and is trying it on for size.

I'm not seeing a good fit.
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Old 10th September 2019, 03:23 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
If you have some type of proof against what I said, speak now or forever hold your peace. I'm not interested in whatever game you're trying to play.
Multiple proofs have been presented throughout this thread. You've ignored all of them.

Your misunderstanding of the uncertainty principle as relating to waves has been proven at least a couple times already. You need to take a step back and reassess.
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Old 10th September 2019, 03:24 PM   #287
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copy and paste it or do the multi quote thing
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Old 10th September 2019, 03:41 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
copy and paste it or do the multi quote thing
Why? Do you want to ignore it all over again?
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Old 10th September 2019, 03:49 PM   #289
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More like remind you how I shut them down. I get it, you hate new science.
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Old 10th September 2019, 03:50 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Unobserved quantum waves not having spacetime is a very big deal.
Old hat actually.

At least two interpretations of QM don't even have the assumption that unobserved things even exist, and leave the ontology as an open question. Another treats spacetime as an emergent feature of the underlying system.

But the fact is that any sort of mathematical calculation concerning quantum waves requires spacetime as well as energy, momentum etc.

If you have found a way to do the quantum wave calculations without any spacetime, energy, momentum etc, then I think that would be a big deal.
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Last edited by Robin; 10th September 2019 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 10th September 2019, 03:58 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
More like remind you how I shut them down.
Sure. Like saying "Probability is pathetic". Wow. This new science is real technical.
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Old 10th September 2019, 04:01 PM   #292
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Unobserved Waves use quantum field excitation's instead of spacetime. The fabric of Spacetime can bend the quantum field though.
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Old 10th September 2019, 04:03 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by phunk View Post
So that's a no?
Also he can't, when asked, even give an overview of one of the ways of calculating the probability that the electron will be detected at a particular point on the back panel in a double-slit experiment in the case where there is no detector to tell which slit it passed through.

For all his talk of "waves" he hasn't even a beginning of a clue what "wave" means in quantum physics.

If he could give any of those calculations he would be starkly contradicting his own claim.
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Old 10th September 2019, 04:04 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Unobserved Waves use quantum field excitation's instead of spacetime. The fabric of Spacetime can bend the quantum field though.
That means nothing at all unless you can give a mathematical account of it.

You can't even give an overview of the mathematics involved in the double slit experiment.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 10th September 2019, 04:46 PM   #295
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Thumbs down Ignorant word salad about quantum field excitation and spacetime

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Unobserved Waves use quantum field excitation's instead of spacetime. The fabric of Spacetime can bend the quantum field though.
11 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Ignorant word salad about quantum field excitation and spacetime.

Spacetime is what any waves travel in. Spacetime says where and when a wave is. No spacetime = no waves ! A "Spacetime can bend the quantum field" fantasy.

6 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: What does your theory predict for the single electron double slit experiment?
6 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Quote the single electron double slit experiment part of your original OP.
6 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Where in your theory are quaternions used (citation or quotation needed) [or say you wasted our time with an irrelevant video]?
6 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: There is no "abbe diffraction limit of matter".
9 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Repeats ignorance and/or fantasies about the delayed choice quantum eraser.
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: A delusion that random dots are seen in the double slit experiment.
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Deep ignorance about probability in QM and the double slit experiment.
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: More of his ignorant gibberish with no physics or even math !
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: The obvious statement that position and momentum can be found but actually ignorance about his one made up equation !
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Random post with a "I don't need different equations..." delusion (the uncertainty principle he says is wrong is derived from QM equations).
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Ignorance and delusions about a "giant clump" and probability.
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: A "uncertainty principle obviously doesn't consider observed particles" delusion.
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: "before it exists", particle "cares", and "spacetime (observation)" gibberish.
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: QFT gibberish of "deciding to swap to spacetime".
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: A "Nature doesn't care if you know which path a particle takes" delusion (double slit experiment says Nature cares!).

Last edited by Reality Check; 10th September 2019 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 10th September 2019, 04:53 PM   #296
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I admit I may be off on the bend thing. I thought I needed to say that for gravitational lensing, but now I'm thinking gravitational lensing is observed particles using spacetime.
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Old 10th September 2019, 04:57 PM   #297
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Old 10th September 2019, 05:14 PM   #298
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With these guys I always wonder who it is they think they are fooling?
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Old 10th September 2019, 05:24 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
For all his talk of "waves" he hasn't even a beginning of a clue what "wave" means in quantum physics.
The ignorance may even extend to waves in general physics. A fundamental property of waves is that they move and that needs spacetime. They can be standing, static waves but that also needs spacetime to give them positions. He believes that waves can exist without any spacetime!
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Old 10th September 2019, 05:28 PM   #300
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Thumbs down A gravitational lensing fantasy

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
I admit I may be off on the bend thing. I thought I needed to say that for gravitational lensing, but now I'm thinking gravitational lensing is observed particles using spacetime.
11 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: A gravitational lensing fantasy (at best a vague statement of actual gravitational lensing).

Gravitational lensing is GR not QM (the subject of this thread is the uncertainty principle, double slit experiment, etc.). Gravitational lensing is mass curving spacetime and light traveling in a straight line in that curved spacetime. This is a consequence of the laws of physics. Gravitational lensing happens whether the light is observed or not.

Last edited by Reality Check; 10th September 2019 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 10th September 2019, 05:37 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Gravitational lensing happens whether the light is observed or not.
You don't know that.
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Old 10th September 2019, 05:43 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
If you have some type of proof against what I said, speak now or forever hold your peace. I'm not interested in whatever game you're trying to play.
There is no game. The point about the uncertainty principle has been made to you over and over again, but the problem is that you do not even seem to understand what the uncertainty principle is.

You keep asserting that the uncertainty principle applies only to waves and that makes us wonder what you think the uncertainty principle is.

It is hardly worth our while making this point yet again if you are not in the position to understand it.

So what you need to do is the show us that you do understand what the uncertainty principle is by describing the uncertainty principle in your own words.

It is a reasonable request and would take hardly any time for you if you understood even half of that which you claim to understand.

I can think of only two reasons why you wouldn't do this, first that you don't understand the uncertainty principle, or second that you do understand the uncertainty principle but realise that putting it in words would demolish your claim that it only applies to waves.
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Old 10th September 2019, 05:50 PM   #303
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQKELOE9eY4
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Old 10th September 2019, 05:57 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
What didn't you understand about "in your own words"? Linking to a video about something obviously cannot demonstrate that you understand it.
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:05 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
You don't know that.
Wrong - the laws of physics work for particles whether observed or not.
But it is your fantasy that is being discussed. You need to show that only observed particles obey the known laws of physics. You need to give the laws of physics that unobserved particles obey.
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:07 PM   #306
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By the way, even if you don't watch the videos you post, it helps if you at least read the summary:
Quote:
The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle states that you can never simultaneously know the exact position and the exact speed of an object. Why not? Because everything in the universe behaves like both a particle and a wave at the same time. Chad Orzel navigates this complex concept of quantum physics.
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:11 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
The last video (6 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Where in your theory are quaternions used (citation or quotation needed) [or say you wasted our time with an irrelevant video]?) suggests that this is another irrelevant video. post and it is !

What is the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle? is not pittsburghjoe showing that he understands the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle by explaining it in his own words.
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:12 PM   #308
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yep, everything on the internet is infallible.
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:17 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
yep, everything on the internet is infallible.
You were asked to provide your own understanding of the principle.

You chose the video.
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:18 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
There is no game. The point about the uncertainty principle has been made to you over and over again, but the problem is that you do not even seem to understand what the uncertainty principle is.

You keep asserting that the uncertainty principle applies only to waves and that makes us wonder what you think the uncertainty principle is.

It is hardly worth our while making this point yet again if you are not in the position to understand it.

So what you need to do is the show us that you do understand what the uncertainty principle is by describing the uncertainty principle in your own words.

It is a reasonable request and would take hardly any time for you if you understood even half of that which you claim to understand.

I can think of only two reasons why you wouldn't do this, first that you don't understand the uncertainty principle, or second that you do understand the uncertainty principle but realise that putting it in words would demolish your claim that it only applies to waves.
Perhaps we can try again.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:21 PM   #311
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The only reason anyone ever asks for a definition from someone is to trap them.
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:22 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
yep, everything on the internet is infallible.
The textbook physics stated is correct as anyone who learns about the uncertainty principle knows. The uncertainty principle applies to everything in the universe. Every photon in the universe. Every electron in the universe. Every proton in the universe. Every neutron in the universe. Every quark in the universe. etc. etc.

Every measurement of position and momentum (and other conjugate observables such as time and energy) has an inbuilt uncertainty.
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:26 PM   #313
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It sure does if waves are involved
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:27 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
The only reason anyone ever asks for a definition from someone is to trap them.
Wrong. No one is asking you for a definition. It was clearly stated that the question was for your description of the uncertainly principle. If you cannot even say what it is then you are arguing from a stance of ignorance about the uncertainly principle.
So what you need to do is the show us that you do understand what the uncertainty principle is by describing the uncertainty principle in your own words.
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:30 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The ignorance may even extend to waves in general physics. A fundamental property of waves is that they move and that needs spacetime. They can be standing, static waves but that also needs spacetime to give them positions. He believes that waves can exist without any spacetime!
He also appears to believe that particles are capable of knowing things.
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We can't go back. We don't understand everything yet.
"Everything" is a little ambitious. We barely understand anything.
Yeah. But that's what the first part of understanding everything looks like.
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:31 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
The uncertainty principle and bell's theorem could prove me wrong, but I can prove them incomplete. Uncertainty is only considering waves and Bell is only considering spin.
Go ahead then. Prove them incomplete.
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We can't go back. We don't understand everything yet.
"Everything" is a little ambitious. We barely understand anything.
Yeah. But that's what the first part of understanding everything looks like.
- xkcd Time (frame 1071-3)
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:44 PM   #317
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Question Cite the use of only "waves" in the derivation of the uncertainty principle

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
It sure does if waves are involved
11 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Cite the use of only "waves" in the derivation of the uncertainty principle.

Uncertainty principle
The general outline is easy to understand.
Start with a single particle. It has a state given by a wave function in position space. If it has a single known momentum then the Born rule says it can be found anywhere. If it has a distribution of momenta then we find that the wave function in position space is a Fourier transform of the wave function in momentum space. A fundamental, textbook property of Fourier transforms is that they transform spread out distributions to localized distributions. Anyone with a physics or math education can see that the position and momentum wave functions are inversely proportional. A wide distribution of position = a narrow distribution of momentum. A wide distribution of momentum = a narrow distribution of position.

Getting the exact limit (Kennard bound) is a bit complex.
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:46 PM   #318
Robin
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
The only reason anyone ever asks for a definition from someone is to trap them.
Trap them into being specific about something for a change?

We didn't ask for a definition, we asked you to describe the uncertainty principle in your own words.

The reason is, as stated, that you don't appear to understand the principle and are giving you the opportunity to show that you do.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:46 PM   #319
pittsburghjoe
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
He also appears to believe that particles are capable of knowing things.
I didn't imply that

"Unobserved quantum waves not having spacetime is a very big deal. Without time, its life is instantaneous."

Everything happens at its birth ..the particle itself isn't deciding things. The quantum field is.
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:55 PM   #320
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Thumbs down Ignorance about the uncertainty principle for particles and Bell's inequality

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Uncertainty is only considering waves and Bell is only considering spin.
11 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Ignorance about the uncertainty principle for particles and Bell's theorem.

The derivation of the uncertainty principle is for particles.
11 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Cite the use of only "waves" in the derivation of the uncertainty principle.

Bell's theorem is a general statement about quantum mechanics.
Quote:
Bell's theorem states that any physical theory that incorporates local realism cannot reproduce all the predictions of quantum mechanical theory
...
The most common examples concern systems of particles that are entangled in spin or polarization.
...
Actually, most experiments have been performed using polarization of photons rather than spin of electrons (or other spin-half particles).
Bell's theorem is not "only considering spin"
Deriving Bell's theorem does not "only consider spin".
The tests of Bell's theorem are mostly polarization, and not "only considering spin".
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