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Old 28th November 2012, 05:39 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Acleron View Post
Another straw man argument. Nobody said that scientists are god-like or that philosophers are moronic.

Just what use is philosophy in science? That's the question to which nobody has answered with anything substantive.
Popper certainly clarified what makes a scientific hypothesis scientific.
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Old 28th November 2012, 05:46 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Walter Ego View Post
Is this the crux of the argument, that philosophy is worthless because it has nothing "important" to tell to the god-like scientists who (we must presume) are the final arbiters of what we can know to be verifiability "true" about the world we live in?
In a word, yes.
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Old 28th November 2012, 06:23 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Acleron View Post
Just what use is philosophy in science? That's the question to which nobody has answered with anything substantive. [...]

Pigliucci is just trotting out the same arguments that have been seen here, but still not explaining what use, importance or relevance philosophy has for science.
Do you think for philosophy to be in any way important, it has to have a use in science? Do you hold different aspects of human life that are not science to the same standards?

Last edited by BNRT; 28th November 2012 at 06:25 AM. Reason: Spelling.
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Old 28th November 2012, 06:34 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe View Post
Before you get too crazy with the accusations of straw man arguments, who exactly said philosophy was "of use" to science in the sense that scientists need to look up a philosophy book to get science done? I don't remember seeing that exact claim.

You are ignoring the point that ethics and critical thinking, among other things, are generally subjects you have to go to the Philosophy department to study. If you think those subjects are of no use then there's not much of a basis for a conversation because a fruitful conversation requires both parties to be rational.
You are surely joking. The constant refrain is that somehow philosophy is important to science. Well without any evidence for that I can dismiss the claim.

OK so you seem to be withdrawing from that, well now show some evidence that philosophy has contributed anything to ethics.

Critical thinking certainly isn't a monopoly of philosophy you may be trained in it and use logical arguments but scientists have been doing that for years without training in philosophy.
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Old 28th November 2012, 07:14 AM   #205
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Perhaps I can at last get a straight answer to straight question from the philosophy fans. What did philosophy have to do with the discovery of DNA? Hard facts this time please, not the usual vagueness.
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Old 28th November 2012, 07:30 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe View Post
Ironically, the fact that the philosophy-bashers can't usefully define the "philosophy" they are attacking demonstrates that they could probably benefit from going to a university Philosophy department and doing a first year critical reasoning subject.
"Ironically, the fact that the god-bashers can't usefully define the "god" they are attacking demonstrates that they could probably benefit from going to a university Religion department and doing a first year religious reasoning subject."

Look familiar? Anyway, a)you are presuming that many of us haven't already gone and done this and, b)I'll personally leave it up to the philosophy people to offer definitions and work with those.

In fact, definitions have already been done in this thread, one most recently by tsig (perhaps considered by some to be one of the "philosophy-bashers" but maybe it'd be less emotionally charged to use the phrase "questioners of philosophy" ), so I'm not certain as to why you're making this statement anyway.
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Old 28th November 2012, 07:38 AM   #207
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Philosophy is how it was determined that witches float because they're made out of wood.
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Old 28th November 2012, 07:43 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Acleron View Post
You are surely joking. The constant refrain is that somehow philosophy is important to science. Well without any evidence for that I can dismiss the claim.
Although this isn't the constant refrain, philosophy is somehow important to science. (The constant refrain is that philosophy isn't worthless). The problem is you don't specify what do you mean by importance or what you regard as important. This is why all this miscommunication is happening. Think of this: how important is syntax to spoken language? You can actually speak relatively proper English without knowing any rules of the language. Does that mean syntax is worthless to language? Or worthless overall, as has been hinted about philosophy? Philosophy is kind of like that syntax.

This polarity that either it is essential to science or it is worthless endeavor overall is a blatant false dilemma. Can we at least agree with this?

As already said, scientists don't need to know philosophy to do science, but philosophy describes the principles science actually works on and assumptions that are made (and that's just a tiny fraction of what philosophy deals with). You may not see the value in that. I don't know about others, but for me it certainly helps to understand the world better. (a question like "why does science work?" is essentially a philosophical questions, dealing with the problem of induction etc.)

Originally Posted by Acleron View Post
Critical thinking certainly isn't a monopoly of philosophy you may be trained in it and use logical arguments but scientists have been doing that for years without training in philosophy.
So what? I don't see the problem here. Nobody has claimed monopoly on critical thinking.
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Old 28th November 2012, 07:44 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Philosophy is how it was determined that witches float because they're made out of wood.
Nope.
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Old 28th November 2012, 07:46 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Perhaps I can at last get a straight answer to straight question from the philosophy fans. What did philosophy have to do with the discovery of DNA? Hard facts this time please, not the usual vagueness.
Nothing as far as I'm aware.
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Old 28th November 2012, 07:56 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Acleron View Post
Is that an advanced philosophers trick, the strawman?

Spoiled was the word, it refers to the hapless witterings about many aspects of nature that were clarified by people we would term scientists going out, observing and formulating testable theories.

But it is the sheer arrogance of the pro-philosophers in considering that their hobby has anything of importance to tell scientists.
So, no real examples?
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Old 28th November 2012, 08:00 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
"Ironically, the fact that the god-bashers can't usefully define the "god" they are attacking demonstrates that they could probably benefit from going to a university Religion department and doing a first year religious reasoning subject."

Look familiar? Anyway, a)you are presuming that many of us haven't already gone and done this and, b)I'll personally leave it up to the philosophy people to offer definitions and work with those.

In fact, definitions have already been done in this thread, one most recently by tsig (perhaps considered by some to be one of the "philosophy-bashers" but maybe it'd be less emotionally charged to use the phrase "questioners of philosophy" ), so I'm not certain as to why you're making this statement anyway.
Indeed, definitions have already been done, but they seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Those questioners of philosophy still think philosophy claims to do science, needs to do science, and/or/but fails to do science, and is therefore somehow irrelevant and unimportant.
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Old 28th November 2012, 08:08 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Kevin_Lowe View Post
Ironically, the fact that the philosophy-bashers can't usefully define the "philosophy" they are attacking demonstrates that they could probably benefit from going to a university Philosophy department and doing a first year critical reasoning subject.
Exactly the same argument that theists use "How can you argue against god if you can't define it".

So far when I've asked philosophy proponents to define it all I get is links, not their own definitions, would you care to try?
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Old 28th November 2012, 08:10 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Walter Ego View Post
You're being silly again. Why would I ask a philosopher to confirm the existence of quarks? The existence of the quantum universe does, however, raise philosophical questions not, strictly speaking, answerable by science.

There also seems to be an unstated assumption here that any field of human knowledge or inquiry that cannot provide empirically (i.e., scientifically) verified answers is by definition worthless or beneath contempt.

ETA:

Massimo Pigliucci, philosopher and former scientist, on those who show "a fundamental distrust of (if not downright contempt for) philosophy, coupled with an overly enthusiastic endorsement of science."

Pigliucci in the linked article gives a good definition of philosophy.



Can any of the philosophy bashers tell us why such a field of inquiry can be summarily dismissed as "worthless"?
Since philosophy has been pondering the same subjects for thousands of years we might reasonably conclude that they have no answers for those questions.

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Old 28th November 2012, 08:24 AM   #215
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Hemlock anyone?

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Old 28th November 2012, 08:32 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Exactly the same argument that theists use "How can you argue against god if you can't define it".

So far when I've asked philosophy proponents to define it all I get is links, not their own definitions, would you care to try?
Apart from it being simply false (I have provided my own definitions, not that it matters), here, how's that for you: Philosophy is the study of the nature of reality, knowledge, ethics, language and reason. Didn't copy-paste it, honest.

Now could you tell me what is the point of me telling you my half-assed, probably poorly phrased and certainly lacking definition of philosophy, when a more sufficient one is provided for us in any dictionary or encyclopedia?
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Old 28th November 2012, 08:45 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by TeapotCavalry View Post
Nothing as far as I'm aware.
So no real examples of the wonderful things that philosophy has done for us.
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Old 28th November 2012, 08:50 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Acleron
Quote:
You are surely joking. The constant refrain is that somehow philosophy is important to science. Well without any evidence for that I can dismiss the claim.
Originally Posted by TeapotCavalry View Post
Although this isn't the constant refrain, philosophy is somehow important to science. (The constant refrain is that philosophy isn't worthless).
So it isn't the constant refrain but I'm going to repeat it. Sheesh.

Quote:
The problem is you don't specify what do you mean by importance or what you regard as important. This is why all this miscommunication is happening.
I'm not the one making the claim, supply your own evidence.

Quote:
Think of this: how important is syntax to spoken language? You can actually speak relatively proper English without knowing any rules of the language. Does that mean syntax is worthless to language? Or worthless overall, as has been hinted about philosophy? Philosophy is kind of like that syntax.
And the study of English grammar is totally irrelevant to using it. It may be an interesting study and obviously some are entranced with it. It also gives ammunition to the grammar police, but no harm in that either.


Quote:
This polarity that either it is essential to science or it is worthless endeavor overall is a blatant false dilemma. Can we at least agree with this?
No you certainly don't get agreement. I'm talking about philosophy and science. Whether it has any utility elsewhere is a different argument and one you need to prove.

Quote:
As already said, scientists don't need to know philosophy to do science, but philosophy describes the principles science actually works on and assumptions that are made (and that's just a tiny fraction of what philosophy deals with). You may not see the value in that. I don't know about others, but for me it certainly helps to understand the world better. (a question like "why does science work?" is essentially a philosophical questions, dealing with the problem of induction etc.)
The answer to the question 'Why does science work?' has not been answered by philosophers. It is answered by the observation that it is the only method we have found that achieves extension of knowledge. We have tried other methods such as religion and philosophy and they didn't achieve so much if anything at all. But perhaps my knowledge is out of date, perhaps an algebra has been devised that allows the proof of some reason that science is so successful.


Quote:
So what? I don't see the problem here. Nobody has claimed monopoly on critical thinking.
Good, then there is no requirement to spend a year in a philosophy department.
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Old 28th November 2012, 08:52 AM   #219
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Here's a real philosopher.

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I AGREE
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Old 28th November 2012, 08:57 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by TeapotCavalry View Post
Apart from it being simply false (I have provided my own definitions, not that it matters), here, how's that for you: Philosophy is the study of the nature of reality, knowledge, ethics, language and reason. Didn't copy-paste it, honest.

Now could you tell me what is the point of me telling you my half-assed, probably poorly phrased and certainly lacking definition of philosophy, when a more sufficient one is provided for us in any dictionary or encyclopedia?
Philosophy: A worthless pseudo-intellectual activity that would arrogantly tell scientists how to do science.

I think that just about sums it up. Who says these forums are not educational?
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Old 28th November 2012, 09:02 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Walter Ego View Post
Philosophy: A worthless pseudo-intellectual activity that would arrogantly tell scientists how to do science.
And a nice job if you can get it. Make it up as you go along, no need for facts or evidence.
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Old 28th November 2012, 09:09 AM   #222
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If there are objective criteria for philosophy then perhaps some one could tell me which philosophers got things right and which ones missed the mark, and how this can be proven.
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Old 28th November 2012, 09:16 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by TeapotCavalry View Post
So, no real examples?
To what?

You want to talk about scientists foiling philosophers. I'm not aware of any scientists going out to actively foil a philosopher but I suppose there were plenty of examples of departmental politics, even in those days.

The philosophy being spoiled by the advances of science is obvious and apparent even in the left over bits that pervade science, such as the PhD awarded by universities. Science was the domain of philosophy, but people kept finding out pesky facts.

But for a real laugh, let us look at a modern day Philosophy Department. The Faculty of Philosophy, Oxford reckons itself to be the one of the foremost philosophy centres in the world. It is embarking on a new study the Philosophy of Cosmology. Lets just ignore that this is actually an old study that cosmologists took over and started achieving progress for the first time. Instead let us look at who is pushing this new study.

Quote:
Templeton grant funds initiative at top universities in philosophy

In a new partnership between Oxford and Cambridge, researchers in physics and philosophy Simon Saunders, Joe Silk, and David Wallace at Oxford University, and John Barrow and Jeremy Butterfield at Cambridge, are to join researchers at a cluster of US universities including Columbia University, Yale University, and New York University, to establish the field of philosophy of cosmology as a new branch of philosophy of physics.
Yup, that's right the Templeton Foundation, our old friends of woo and religion.

And people wonder why some scientists look down on philosophy.
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Old 28th November 2012, 09:17 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa
Originally Posted by Acleron View Post
Another straw man argument. Nobody said that scientists are god-like or that philosophers are moronic.

Just what use is philosophy in science? That's the question to which nobody has answered with anything substantive.
Popper certainly clarified what makes a scientific hypothesis scientific.

Via an epistemological philosophy he titled critical rationalism.

Karl Popper was a philosopher you know.
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Old 28th November 2012, 09:19 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
Via an epistemological philosophy he titled critical rationalism.
Why not rational criticism and philosophical epistemology.? Or rational epistemology and philosophical criticism?

Last edited by dafydd; 28th November 2012 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 28th November 2012, 09:20 AM   #226
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Ask Popper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_rationalism
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Old 28th November 2012, 09:29 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
Thank you. Hilarious!

''Critical rationalists hold that scientific theories and any other claims to knowledge can and should be rationally criticized, and (if they have empirical content) can and should be subjected to tests which may falsify them. Thus claims to knowledge may be contrastingly and normatively evaluated. They are either falsifiable and thus empirical (in a very broad sense), or not falsifiable and thus non-empirical. Those claims to knowledge that are potentially falsifiable can then be admitted to the body of empirical science, and then further differentiated according to whether they are retained or are later actually falsified. If retained, yet further differentiation may be made on the basis of how much subjection to criticism they have received, how severe such criticism has been, and how probable the theory is, with the least[1] probable theory that still withstands attempts to falsify it being the one to be preferred. That it is the least[1] probable theory that is to be preferred is one of the contrasting differences between critical rationalism and classical views on science, such as positivism, who hold that one should instead accept the most probable theory. (The least probable theory is the one with the highest information content and most open to future falsification.) Critical Rationalism as a discourse positioned itself against what its proponents took to be epistemologically relativist philosophies, particularly post-modernist or sociological approaches to knowledge. Critical rationalism has it that knowledge is objective (in the sense of being embodied in various substrates and in the sense of not being reducible to what humans individually "know"), and also that truth is objective (exists independently of social mediation or individual perception, but is "really real").''

In other words ''do the experiment and see what happens.''
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Old 28th November 2012, 09:30 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
Popper certainly clarified what makes a scientific hypothesis scientific.
Yes he did and for that we can be thankful. But you were careful to say 'clarified' He formally stated the principles of falsifiability and prediction and although some scientists deny the former principle as an essential for a theory, in general, it holds up very well. But the principles were already known. The moment predictions were made on the basis of science theory, a theory could be disproved.


What would have been an achievement for philosophy was to formulate Popper's principles 2000 years ago. Think on what that could have done for our thinking.
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Old 28th November 2012, 09:35 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
Via an epistemological philosophy he titled critical rationalism.

Karl Popper was a philosopher you know.
The arguments get closer to religion all the time.

Elsewhere on a religious site I mentioned George Boole and the instant response was

George Boole was a Christian you know.

As it happens, I have never met a scientist who didn't know that. But as I discuss above, he had to observe real science before writing his principles.
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Old 28th November 2012, 10:54 AM   #230
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If a philosopher falls in the middle of an empty philosophy classroom, did he make a sound at all?
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Old 28th November 2012, 11:03 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
If a philosopher falls in the middle of an empty philosophy classroom, did he make a sound at all?
Probably not. Science has the answer to all our questions, and if it doesn't the questions are not worth asking.

Last edited by Walter Ego; 28th November 2012 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 28th November 2012, 11:03 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Acleron View Post
Just what use is philosophy in science? That's the question to which nobody has answered with anything substantive.
(snip)
Pigliucci is just trotting out the same arguments that have been seen here, but still not explaining what use, importance or relevance philosophy has for science.
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
^ This
I'm beginning to think no answer will suffice, but I'll try yet again.

Here's a paper in philosophy with a direct application to evolutionary theory:
http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/3035...paperFinal.pdf

There are many like these. Philosophy and science are not at odds. They are simply two different methods of trying to understand reality. Science limits itself to empiricism, philosophy does not.

And to drive the point home, here's one by a philosopher (sorry, abstracts only): http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.108...21101370328793
Cited by an entomologist: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...nticated=false

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Old 28th November 2012, 11:05 AM   #233
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In the recent New Scientist 24/11/12, Eric Scerri, a lecturer in chemistry, and the history and philosophy of science writes an opinion piece article.

He sets up two groups, the scientific realists and the anti-realists. Scientific realists hold that for example particles such as electrons are real while anti-realists 'stop short of taking the additional leap of faith'. (It appears to me he has the two labels the wrong way around and that it is a false dichotomy as there is a third group, the don't knows.

He cites John Worrall, a philosopher of science, who claims that the parts of Fresnel's theory of light being a disturbance in an aether are incorporated into Maxwell's theory of electromagnetism. Because of this he further claims that Fresnel had the correct structure of light. Presumably this means that there must be an aether. This is supported by other philosophers (well duh!).

There is more of this balderdash for two whole pages including a diversion into the colour of gold being explained by Einstein's theory of relativity. (So?)

His final statement is:
Quote:
If I am right (the only mention so far he could be wrong), he and his colleagues deserve real credit for offering a way out of this long standing, bitterly fought over, utterly fundamental question
There is certainly discussion of the major point he made but while we can still predict what is going to happen in biology, chemistry and physics then it is of minor interest. If someone could prove that electrons etc are real particles then I suppose it might make further predictions easier, but no philosopher is going to do that.

So after all this, what have Scerri and Worrall contributed to science? Zilch.
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Old 28th November 2012, 11:20 AM   #234
marplots
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
If there are objective criteria for philosophy then perhaps some one could tell me which philosophers got things right and which ones missed the mark, and how this can be proven.
It's proven the same way it is in science: peer review.

Cartesian dualism is an idea that has been dropped, as an example. Ayn Rand's objectivism has been dumped as well. There are others.

Here's an example of Rand being taken to task by a philosopher: http://www.kiekeben.com/rand.html

And here's a lecture from Oxford that kills Descarte in the first five minutes:
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Last edited by marplots; 28th November 2012 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 28th November 2012, 11:46 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Perhaps I can at last get a straight answer to straight question from the philosophy fans. What did philosophy have to do with the discovery of DNA? Hard facts this time please, not the usual vagueness.
Hard fact (from Wiki):
Gregor Mendel, "From 1840 to 1843, he studied practical and theoretical philosophy as well as physics at the University of Olomouc Faculty of Philosophy, taking a year off because of illness."

Good enough or shall we have another round?
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Old 28th November 2012, 11:48 AM   #236
dafydd
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
It's proven the same way it is in science: peer review.

Cartesian dualism is an idea that has been dropped, as an example. Ayn Rand's objectivism has been dumped as well. There are others.

Here's an example of Rand being taken to task by a philosopher: http://www.kiekeben.com/rand.html

And here's a lecture from Oxford that kills Descarte in the first five minutes:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
What is the current theory of philosophy that is accepted by most philosophers?
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Old 28th November 2012, 11:52 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Hard fact (from Wiki):
Gregor Mendel, "From 1840 to 1843, he studied practical and theoretical philosophy as well as physics at the University of Olomouc Faculty of Philosophy, taking a year off because of illness."

Good enough or shall we have another round?
Why not. He is remembered as a scientist. How did his study of philosophy help with his work on genetics? What kind of philosophy was it? If he had studied another branch of philosophy would he made his genetic discoveries? If he had never studied philosophy would we have heard of him?
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Old 28th November 2012, 11:54 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
It's proven the same way it is in science: peer review.
What kind of exams have these peers passed?
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Old 28th November 2012, 11:56 AM   #239
marplots
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
What kind of exams have these peers passed?
They earn PhD's mostly.
What's that stand for again?
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Old 28th November 2012, 12:03 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
They earn PhD's mostly.
What's that stand for again?
PhDs in philosophy. QED.
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