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Old 29th May 2021, 04:03 AM   #1
Darat
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“ Canada mourns as remains of 215 children found at indigenous school ”

Canada mourns as remains of 215 children found at indigenous school https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57291530

…. A mass grave containing the remains of 215 children has been found in Canada at a former residential school set up to assimilate indigenous people. ….

…. Rosanne Casimir, the chief of the community in British Columbia's city of Kamloops, said the preliminary finding represented an unthinkable loss that was never documented by the school's administrators. ….


Ran by a Roman Catholic administration for most of its existence, but of course under the aegis of governments for 80 years.

I know this is nothing new but a further 215 undocumented deaths? How many more such graves are there?
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Old 29th May 2021, 04:13 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Canada mourns as remains of 215 children found at indigenous school https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57291530

…. A mass grave containing the remains of 215 children has been found in Canada at a former residential school set up to assimilate indigenous people. ….

…. Rosanne Casimir, the chief of the community in British Columbia's city of Kamloops, said the preliminary finding represented an unthinkable loss that was never documented by the school's administrators. ….


Ran by a Roman Catholic administration for most of its existence, but of course under the aegis of governments for 80 years.

I know this is nothing new but a further 215 undocumented deaths? How many more such graves are there?
Far out

That is pretty ****** up.

Sad that I am guessing they won't know who half of hem are.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove breach of rule 10

Last edited by Agatha; 29th May 2021 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 29th May 2021, 04:35 AM   #3
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Strong parallels with the Catholic children's homes in Ireland.
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Old 29th May 2021, 04:50 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Far out

That is pretty ****** up.

Sad that I am guessing they won't know who half of hem are.
There is an attached article, the gov has a list of 2,800 'children who never came home'. And they used ground penetrating radar to find this 215, they knew what to look for. And I doubt "mass grave" is correct, unless some kind of epidemic killed dozens at a time.

Lessee, this school, 500 students, 90 years, 2.5 deaths per year, probably not far from the usual child mortality of that era. Poor hygiene, poor medical care, did they even get vaxxed? Unmarked graves is where the travesty lies.
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Last edited by Agatha; 29th May 2021 at 12:28 PM. Reason: rule 10 in quote
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Old 29th May 2021, 08:04 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Lessee, this school, 500 students, 90 years, 2.5 deaths per year, probably not far from the usual child mortality of that era. Poor hygiene, poor medical care, did they even get vaxxed? Unmarked graves is where the travesty lies.
The school has a higher death rate than Guantanamo Bay.
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Old 29th May 2021, 08:15 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Canada mourns as remains of 215 children found at indigenous school https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57291530

…. A mass grave containing the remains of 215 children has been found in Canada at a former residential school set up to assimilate indigenous people. ….

…. Rosanne Casimir, the chief of the community in British Columbia's city of Kamloops, said the preliminary finding represented an unthinkable loss that was never documented by the school's administrators. ….


Ran by a Roman Catholic administration for most of its existence, but of course under the aegis of governments for 80 years.

I know this is nothing new but a further 215 undocumented deaths? How many more such graves are there?
Does Canada really "mourn"? This seems like an inappropriate form of virtue signaling. Canada is a country with about 38 million people, the vast majority of whom never knew any one of those children.

I'm not suggesting that people aren't feeling strong emotional reactions, for example, outrage, disgust, a desire for a thorough investigation and justice, but "mourning" is what people do when they lose people or pets that they knew and loved.
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Old 29th May 2021, 08:18 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
There is an attached article, the gov has a list of 2,800 'children who never came home'. And they used ground penetrating radar to find this 215, they knew what to look for. And I doubt "mass grave" is correct, unless some kind of epidemic killed dozens at a time.

Lessee, this school, 500 students, 90 years, 2.5 deaths per year, probably not far from the usual child mortality of that era. Poor hygiene, poor medical care, did they even get vaxxed? Unmarked graves is where the travesty lies.
That's quite a conclusion, Sherlock Holmes. You seem like you're in a hurry to dismiss the possibility that they were murdered. A simple forensic investigation would reveal that, right? I'm sure you wouldn't oppose such a thing.
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Old 29th May 2021, 08:59 AM   #8
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Here we have an indication that some records were kept which raises the question of what happened to the rest of the records. Burned up in a fire ? Lost, stolen destroyed ?

Mass or unmakked graves look to be business as usual for the RC church.

Bodies of 'hundreds' of children buried in mass grave

Tuam babies: Excavation of children's mass grave to begin in 2019
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Old 29th May 2021, 05:45 PM   #9
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Deleted, my mistake

Last edited by Nakani; 29th May 2021 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 29th May 2021, 06:04 PM   #10
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I was reading, somewhere, that the death rate was 5X that of non-native children. Crappy food, crappy to non existent medical care, crammed into firetrap dormitories where an outbreak of tuberculosis could easily rip through the population.

It was probably like living in the workhouse back home in Jolly Olde England.
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Old 29th May 2021, 06:17 PM   #11
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You ever wonder if the death rate among native children was always like that? Apparently the early childhood death rate in medival Europe was enough to wildly skew the average. Enough for ignorant people to come away thinking it was rare for someone to live past the age of thirty five or so.

Anyway, whatever. Myself real question is this: Were all these bodies buried at the same time, the result of a single mass death?
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Old 29th May 2021, 06:20 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
I was reading, somewhere, that the death rate was 5X that of non-native children. Crappy food, crappy to non existent medical care, crammed into firetrap dormitories where an outbreak of tuberculosis could easily rip through the population.

It was probably like living in the workhouse back home in Jolly Olde England.
If that's true, then there should be mass child graves associated with each of the various workhouses of JOE.
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Old 29th May 2021, 07:35 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
Does Canada really "mourn"? This seems like an inappropriate form of virtue signaling. Canada is a country with about 38 million people, the vast majority of whom never knew any one of those children.

I'm not suggesting that people aren't feeling strong emotional reactions, for example, outrage, disgust, a desire for a thorough investigation and justice, but "mourning" is what people do when they lose people or pets that they knew and loved.

Ya, Canada really mourns. The mountains, streams, everything. Now that this important question has been answered...

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You ever wonder if the death rate among native children was always like that? Apparently the early childhood death rate in medival Europe was enough to wildly skew the average. Enough for ignorant people to come away thinking it was rare for someone to live past the age of thirty five or so.

Anyway, whatever. Myself real question is this: Were all these bodies buried at the same time, the result of a single mass death?

Quote:
The First Nation is working with museum specialists and the coroner's office to establish the causes and timings of the deaths, which are not currently known.

I guess we will find out.

For whatever reason, this terror organization (Catholicism) still thrives today. "GooooOOOOO GAAAAAWD!!!!!!" Why do they hate children so much?
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Old 29th May 2021, 08:33 PM   #14
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No article about this that I've read has mentioned there having been any sort of excavation to determine for sure whether there actually are any bodies where they seem to "believe" there may be bodies based upon the use of ground penetrating radar.

This article has a picture showing some stakes where they "believe" there may be some bodies:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...ol-site-in-bc/

In this article it says remains were "detected" but not exhumed. ...but it also sounds like the coroner is getting all her information from the tribe/band.

Quote:
The remains were detected and not exhumed. Lisa Lapointe, chief coroner in British Columbia, said it was advised by the Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc on Thursday about the discovery of a burial site located adjacent to the former Kamloops Indian Residential School.

“We are early in the process of gathering information and will continue to work collaboratively with the Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc and others as this sensitive work progresses,” Lapointe said
https://www.chronicleonline.com/news...20028face.html

Maybe the Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc aren't skeptics and would jump to conclusions based upon nothing more than preliminary tests and then make claims based upon less than sufficient evidence.

It will be interesting, then, to see just where this story eventually goes.
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Old 29th May 2021, 09:20 PM   #15
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You can access the press release from the Office of the Chief of the Kamloops Indian Band here:

https://tkemlups.ca/remains-of-child...ol-discovered/
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Old 29th May 2021, 10:19 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Shepherd View Post
You can access the press release from the Office of the Chief of the Kamloops Indian Band here:

https://tkemlups.ca/remains-of-child...ol-discovered/
I note there that the Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc are

"Taking measures to ensure that the locations of the remains are protected."

I wonder how forensics and identifications will be done.
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Old 30th May 2021, 06:35 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
That's quite a conclusion, Sherlock Holmes. You seem like you're in a hurry to dismiss the possibility that they were murdered. A simple forensic investigation would reveal that, right? I'm sure you wouldn't oppose such a thing.
And why are you dismissing my skeptism so easily?

Sure, physical abuse is a possibility. Though it wasn't mentioned in the articles, I'll leave it as a possibility. I didn't see any allegations of "murder". There should be lots of stories from survivors, but all we've heard is the sensationalism of "mass graves".

Is your assumption of murder because the Catholic church was involved?
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Old 30th May 2021, 09:00 AM   #18
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Quote:
At least 150,000 Indigenous children were part of the system while it was active, and more than 6,000 are estimated to have died, according to that 2015 report. There was no recorded cause of death in around half of the cases, and the true number of deaths is unlikely to be ever known due the number of destroyed and incomplete records, according to the report. .....Most of the children died from malnourishment or disease........
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/res...says-1.3093580

So 4% child mortality between 3yo to I suppose 16? 18? What was the norm for reservation Indians?

"Murder" ?
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Old 30th May 2021, 03:40 PM   #19
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As a Canadian I'm usually proud of the country I was born in and am very happy to be identified with it. But the shameful historical treatment of the indigenous people, and the persistent low grade racism against them that permeates Canadian society today, is a constant reminder that we can do better.

It's my opinion that if you take the word "black" out of any article on race relations in the United States and replace it with "Indian" or "indigenous," you'll have a decent view of the situation in Canada. One big difference is in keeping with the stereotype of the polite Canadian, racism in Canada is much more muted. But it's still there, as people of Indigenous, black, Asian, and even Polish and Ukrainian background can attest.

The residential school system is a black mark on our history. Its very existence was tainted from the outset. It wasn't about supplying the indigenous population with the tools needed to co-exist with the Europeans who came to Canada to build new lives for themselves and a new country as well. Instead, its stated purpose was the "kill the Indian in the Indian," to make them ashamed of their heritage and turn them into a people indistinguishable from the white people who had taken over their land. This and other policies aimed at marginalizing the indigenous people have had terrible long term impacts on them.

As a new generation of indigenous people has grown up outside of the residential schools, and as the injustices imposed on them through things like the the schools have become known in the mainstream culture, there are loud and persistent calls to right these historic wrongs. In my opinion, the fact that various levels of government in Canada are doing things like flying flags at half mast and, here in Manitoba, adjusting the lighting on the provincial legislature to orange as a way to honour these lost children, is a step in the right direction.

Additional resources for those interested:
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Old 30th May 2021, 04:27 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
It's my opinion that if you take the word "black" out of any article on race relations in the United States and replace it with "Indian" or "indigenous," you'll have a decent view of the situation in Canada.
With the exception that the USA's treatment of indigenous people has been at least as bad, although somewhat different. Along with the treatment of Blacks.
Canada used those "schools" to beat the Indian out of them. The USA preferred to confine them to the reservation, or else. The only good Indian....

And then there's the treatment of Asians. The athletic field in my town was once the site of "Chinatown". Which "mysteriously" burned down, with the residents mostly relocating. And this is a hyper-liberal little community today.
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Old 31st May 2021, 05:57 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
With the exception that the USA's treatment of indigenous people has been at least as bad, although somewhat different. Along with the treatment of Blacks.
Canada used those "schools" to beat the Indian out of them. The USA preferred to confine them to the reservation, or else. The only good Indian....

*looks up*

How..sure are you of that?

(Also, you may want to look at the disproportionate rates of CPS taking children of various races. I’m on tablet, so I won’t provide links yet, but...it’s not good)
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Old 2nd June 2021, 01:12 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And why are you dismissing my skeptism so easily?

Sure, physical abuse is a possibility. Though it wasn't mentioned in the articles, I'll leave it as a possibility. I didn't see any allegations of "murder". There should be lots of stories from survivors, but all we've heard is the sensationalism of "mass graves".

Is your assumption of murder because the Catholic church was involved?
No records. If 215 white children died at one school over its lifetime there would be hell to pay along with all the records. Children dying and being buried with no records would be a red flag.

I am not Indigenous but I have Indigenous relatives who went to that school and a niece who taught there after it was turned over to the local First Nations. Her mother went to there. I have also played basketball in the gym.

It was the stories of the survivors years after they left the school that led to the discovery of the bodies. They didn't know where the children had been buried, only that they had died and been buried on the grounds. They have told those stories for years but no one cared enough to go looking. In the end, they went looking themselves starting in the early 2000s.

You cannot even fathom the things done to destroy Indigenous cultures in Canada. It truly was genocide. 139 residential schools (not including provincially run schools or those run solely by a religious order), 4100 known deaths, in 1/3 of those deaths the name of the child wasn't recorded, 1/4 didn't have a gender listed, 1/2 had no cause of death listed. Families were often not notified and the bodies were not returned.

If you have children think about that for a minute.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 02:34 AM   #23
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Here's at least one news outlet's correction to the original story - and one that I expected based upon the available information.

Quote:
Correction: An earlier version of this article referred incorrectly to the burial site discovered at Kamloops Indian Residential School as a mass grave. The Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc First Nation says the remains were found spread out; it considers it an unmarked, undocumented burial site, not a mass grave. The article has been corrected.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...ential-school/

Considering the nature of the supposed evidence on which they are basing their claims, I kind of expect there to be more corrections in the future. We'll see, though.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 02:47 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Shepherd View Post
Here's at least one news outlet's correction to the original story - and one that I expected based upon the available information.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...ential-school/

Considering the nature of the supposed evidence on which they are basing their claims, I kind of expect there to be more corrections in the future. We'll see, though.
That's a "duh" moment for me - I didn't read "mass grave" as meaning a single great big grave - even though that is what it literally means. I'm used to reading about the hidden and/or undocumented burial sites in the various reports so that is how I read it - I can better understand some people's scepticism if they read it as meaning a single grave with hundreds of bodies in it.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 02:27 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Shepherd View Post
Here's at least one news outlet's correction to the original story - and one that I expected based upon the available information.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...ential-school/

Considering the nature of the supposed evidence on which they are basing their claims, I kind of expect there to be more corrections in the future. We'll see, though.
It's a good thing that this has shone a spotlight on Canada's terrible treatment of its indigenous people.

Unfortunately it's entirely possible that some, but hopefully not all, of the sites identified as being human remains by the team that ran the ground penetration radar and interpreted the results are actually something else. In that case some people will jump on that, deriding the Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc of grandstanding and exaggeration—while ignoring the bigger picture of the injustice done to them and all other indigenous people by the residential school system.
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