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Old 26th August 2020, 04:48 PM   #401
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
The crowd of people surrounding the lady appear to be a more credible threat with a clearer case of intentional intimidation than the guy on the train.

If we were to remove race from the situation, and look solely at the dynamics involved, I think almost anyone would feel that the lady surrounded by the crowd would likely feel more threatened than the three folks on the train would.

Racism is a definite problem, and it most certainly needs to be rectified. But at the end of the day, someone saying mean things is not a more credible threat than a person being surrounded by a crowd yelling at them for not doing what the crowd insists that she must do.

One person yelling at a few rich guys, calling them filthy capitalist pigs who has virtually raped all of their wage slaves is rude, and I could understand the target of such abuse being angry. But one rich guy being surrounded by a crowd yelling at him to give them his money is something else entirely.

One person yelling at a few women that they're evil sluts who belong in the kitchen is execrable, and the target of such language would rightly be offended and angry. One woman being surrounded by an angry crowd yelling at her to go make babies like she's supposed to is a very different situation.

Of course, neither of those analogies is really a great fit. But the dynamic remains. In the tube case, it's one guy saying very cruel racist things to three people, all of whom had room to move away from him and had the option to exit by a different door and avoid any confrontation. I completely understand them being angry, it seems appropriate that they should be angry. One of them, however, decided to knock the racist yeller out... and was lauded for it and had permanent brain damage wished upon him.

In this case, one woman is minding her own business when a crowd of protesters surrounds her, and insists that she raise her fist. Her lack of action leads an entire group of people to get in her face, in a clearly intimidating fashion, yell directly at her, and block her in. She has no escape. And this is brushed off as no big deal, just a slight inconvenience really.

The stark contrast in the perception of moral high ground between these two events is appalling.
You’re offering a lot of detail about the events surrounding that video.

What is your source?
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Old 26th August 2020, 05:11 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
The crowd of people surrounding the lady appear to be a more credible threat with a clearer case of intentional intimidation than the guy on the train.

If we were to remove race from the situation, and look solely at the dynamics involved, I think almost anyone would feel that the lady surrounded by the crowd would likely feel more threatened than the three folks on the train would.

Racism is a definite problem, and it most certainly needs to be rectified. But at the end of the day, someone saying mean things is not a more credible threat than a person being surrounded by a crowd yelling at them for not doing what the crowd insists that she must do.

One person yelling at a few rich guys, calling them filthy capitalist pigs who has virtually raped all of their wage slaves is rude, and I could understand the target of such abuse being angry. But one rich guy being surrounded by a crowd yelling at him to give them his money is something else entirely.

One person yelling at a few women that they're evil sluts who belong in the kitchen is execrable, and the target of such language would rightly be offended and angry. One woman being surrounded by an angry crowd yelling at her to go make babies like she's supposed to is a very different situation.

Of course, neither of those analogies is really a great fit. But the dynamic remains. In the tube case, it's one guy saying very cruel racist things to three people, all of whom had room to move away from him and had the option to exit by a different door and avoid any confrontation. I completely understand them being angry, it seems appropriate that they should be angry. One of them, however, decided to knock the racist yeller out... and was lauded for it and had permanent brain damage wished upon him.

In this case, one woman is minding her own business when a crowd of protesters surrounds her, and insists that she raise her fist. Her lack of action leads an entire group of people to get in her face, in a clearly intimidating fashion, yell directly at her, and block her in. She has no escape. And this is brushed off as no big deal, just a slight inconvenience really.

The stark contrast in the perception of moral high ground between these two events is appalling.
Does this crime have a name?
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Old 26th August 2020, 06:53 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
In this case, one woman is minding her own business when a crowd of protesters surrounds her, and insists that she raise her fist. Her lack of action leads an entire group of people to get in her face, in a clearly intimidating fashion, yell directly at her, and block her in. She has no escape. And this is brushed off as no big deal, just a slight inconvenience really.
I'm trying to imagine what it's like to have so much [white/male] privilege that one doesn't see the above scenario as profoundly problematic. Despite having read every Hugo Award winning novel (and having enjoyed most of them) my imagination is falling short of the task.

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Does this crime have a name?
Who said anything about crime?
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Old 26th August 2020, 07:05 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Who said anything about crime?
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Old 26th August 2020, 07:24 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I'll be more specific, if that helps.

Who affirmatively claimed that a specific crime (within a given jurisdiction) was actually committed?
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Old 26th August 2020, 07:33 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'll be more specific, if that helps.

Who affirmatively claimed that a specific crime (within a given jurisdiction) was actually committed?
Emily's Cat implied that SuburbanTurkey missed something when he said he didn't see a crime committed by the shouters. I inquired as to what might have been missed, and Emily's Cat went on to describe behavior of the shouters that is not criminal.

I don't know why you're asking me to summarize posts that are clearly visible to you.
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Old 26th August 2020, 07:53 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
The crowd of people surrounding the lady appear to be a more credible threat with a clearer case of intentional intimidation than the guy on the train.
Personally, I'd rather face a loud group of people from an avowedly nonviolent movement (and since the group, while remarkably white for a BLM DC protest group, don't appear to be breaking windows and starting fires like the pseudo-anarchists do, they're likely safe) than a belligerent, racially hostile drunk *anywhere*. The former might make you feel bad emotionally, and can ruin a nice brunch. They look like a bunch of college kids that don't know how to protest effectively - well meaning, but annoying.

The latter might cut you, or pull a gun and start blasting wildly.
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Old 26th August 2020, 08:14 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I don't know why you're asking me to summarize posts that are clearly visible to you.
Possibly because no one specified any crime...but then you already knew this.

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Personally, I'd rather face a loud group of people from an avowedly nonviolent movement...
How can you tell which specific movement the crowd is avowedly aligned with in that moment?

How could anyone be confident, in the moment, that the mob was not going to escalate from mere shouting in their face (not a minor matter in the days of COVID) to something even worse?
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Old 26th August 2020, 08:37 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Possibly because no one specified any crime...but then you already knew this.
I was asking Emily's Cat to specify the crime she was stating SuburbanTurkey had missed.
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Old 27th August 2020, 02:01 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
How can you tell which specific movement the crowd is avowedly aligned with in that moment?

How could anyone be confident, in the moment, that the mob was not going to escalate from mere shouting in their face (not a minor matter in the days of COVID) to something even worse?
First, most protesters don't just suddenly start beating people. Second, these kids are obviously mimicking BLM, but without much in the way of guidance, not dangerous, but not helpful either. That's likely why the woman wasn't afraid at all.

A random, belligerent drunk in the wild, however, is never good.
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Old 27th August 2020, 04:26 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Whereas getting heckled by a single drunk racist ******* is so major, it warrants violent retaliation.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk
indeed. See if you can tell the difference.
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Old 27th August 2020, 04:57 AM   #412
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Among other differences, the woman in the pink blouse is vastly outnumbered by a crowd of people accusing her of complicity in white supremacist violence.

https://twitter.com/MikeNayna/status...49483500404738

https://twitter.com/rawsmedia/status...67900756496387

I cannot know if Billy Steele had violence on his mind, but we can know that this crowd of (BLM?) protesters did.
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Old 27th August 2020, 05:26 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Among other differences, the woman in the pink blouse is vastly outnumbered by a crowd of people accusing her of complicity in white supremacist violence.

https://twitter.com/MikeNayna/status...49483500404738

https://twitter.com/rawsmedia/status...67900756496387

I cannot know if Billy Steele had violence on his mind, but we can know that this crowd of (BLM?) protesters did.
If they had violence on the mind, they would have committed violence. Nothing was stopping them, no one intervened before they could act out any violence.

What kind of mind reading is this? We'll never know what Billy Steele had in mind because he was decked out cold. Any plans he had were derailed when he took a surprise nap on the subway.

I don't see any information about how this incident ended. What happened after the video stops? Did the group leave? Were they chased off by cops, foiling a violent plot? Did they attack the woman, thus realizing their violent plans?

Seems like this video is direct evidence they didn't have violence in mind, because the video shows them not using violence when presented with the opportunity.
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Old 27th August 2020, 06:40 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
If they had violence on the mind, they would have committed violence.
You misunderstand me. They were talking about violence therefore we can infer they were thinking about it as well. Unless you're willing to say their chanting was utterly mindless, that is.
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Old 27th August 2020, 12:32 PM   #415
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I was asking Emily's Cat to specify the crime she was stating SuburbanTurkey had missed.
I wasn't stating a specific crime. Mostly noting that Suburban Turkey pretty much seems to think there's nothing at all wrong with the situation, it's just a minor inconvenience.

If you want me to pick a crime, I would say intimidation or threatening. Not major crimes, but still.

If the woman involved had been a minority, do you think this would be brushed off as no big deal and just a minor inconvenience?
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Old 27th August 2020, 01:04 PM   #416
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I wasn't stating a specific crime. Mostly noting that Suburban Turkey pretty much seems to think there's nothing at all wrong with the situation, it's just a minor inconvenience.

If you want me to pick a crime, I would say intimidation or threatening. Not major crimes, but still.

If the woman involved had been a minority, do you think this would be brushed off as no big deal and just a minor inconvenience?
In a pandemic, I'd say it should be a crime to surround someone with a group and yell at them in close proximity. That can kill (mask or no mask) I see no ability to get fresh air to breathe in that video.

So if it was anyone in a higher risk group, especially older or overweight, or with some current medical condition, it could be very very serious.

Kids dont care! No justice, no peace, right? Yell it loud in ALL their noncompliant faces!!!

In a normal world it may just be harassment, unlawful assembly, or disturbing the peace

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Old 27th August 2020, 01:52 PM   #417
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A bit of a tangent... I'm really dissatisfied with the narrative of "White Silence is Violence". It ends up describing literally not doing anything as being "violence". And frankly, that's dumb.
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Old 27th August 2020, 02:08 PM   #418
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
A bit of a tangent... I'm really dissatisfied with the narrative of "White Silence is Violence". It ends up describing literally not doing anything as being "violence". And frankly, that's dumb.
the silver lining, if there can be one with such a belief, is that it exists mainly in the plane of the media and internet at this point for most of us. All of the riot areas with their social mandates, all put together would not make much of a tiny blip for all the territory we cover here as a population.

It has not yet hit me in real life, at ALL. I dont see any of this stuff as I go about my day. Not in my friends, not at the store, nowhere.
(and I am in a very mixed population. But if it does come, the black Texan 3 doors down is my 'bug out' place because he told me not to worry...he has has guns and freezers of bbq meat! . Gotta love those Texans.)

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Old 27th August 2020, 02:42 PM   #419
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
the silver lining, if there can be one with such a belief, is that it exists mainly in the plane of the media and internet at this point for most of us. All of the riot areas with their social mandates, all put together would not make much of a tiny blip for all the territory we cover here as a population.

It has not yet hit me in real life, at ALL. I dont see any of this stuff as I go about my day. Not in my friends, not at the store, nowhere.
(and I am in a very mixed population. But if it does come, the black Texan 3 doors down is my 'bug out' place because he told me not to worry...he has has guns and freezers of bbq meat! . Gotta love those Texans.)
Agreed, I don't see it in the real world. The people I know who actually live in/near Seattle & Portland give very mixed reports... but anyone who lives fare enough away from downtown just doesn't see any of it. I definitely don't see any of it here in AZ. We had a few nights of very nicely organized protests, and then continuing conversation. We also had a spree of looting and vandalism those first couple of nights, that were clearly unrelated to the protests - bored kids in Scottsdale raiding malls and such.

The first night of protests, there was a LOT of social media exaggeration and amplification of things that were just straight up untrue. We ended up with our neighbor and her daughter hanging out at our house for most of the night, because they were so freaked out and worried about the "rampant violence" that their friends were spouting through text and twitter... even though it just wasn't true. And they're both very liberal people.

My spouse and I are also pretty liberal across the board (with the exception of gun rights). But neither of us were worried... because we're already convinced that twitter is full of twits, and because we can look outside and see that there's nothing going on. We also don't watch much news. I get leads on things to look into from here, and then I go do my own research for topics that seem interesting. But I pretty much go into it with the assumption that the news is full of half-truths and sensationalism, and is NOT giving me an unbiased objective view of the world. Media is trying to sell me an experience based on the manufacture of outrage and a constant state of near-panic. I'm just not buying what they're selling.
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Old 27th August 2020, 03:20 PM   #420
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I wasn't stating a specific crime. Mostly noting that Suburban Turkey pretty much seems to think there's nothing at all wrong with the situation, it's just a minor inconvenience.
He explicitly stated that there is something wrong with what they did. It's in the section you quoted.
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Old 27th August 2020, 03:37 PM   #421
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
He explicitly stated that there is something wrong with what they did. It's in the section you quoted.
Only if you assume that Suburban Turkey thinks that rudeness is wrong. I'm not sure that would be his view on it.
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Old 28th August 2020, 05:16 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You misunderstand me. They were talking about violence therefore we can infer they were thinking about it as well. Unless you're willing to say their chanting was utterly mindless, that is.
You think protesters chanting about the inherent violence of our police and political system is a direct threat of immediate violent action?
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Old 28th August 2020, 05:17 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Only if you assume that Suburban Turkey thinks that rudeness is wrong. I'm not sure that would be his view on it.
I've already stated that I think these protesters are misguided, and that attempts to extract gestures of white solidarity from randos on the street is tedious and largely pointless.

Protesters willing to get into people faces would be much better off convening at their local police station or mayor's mansion.

But at the end of the day, who cares? Somebody got yelled at. Thoughts and prayers to the survivors.
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Old 28th August 2020, 07:39 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You think protesters chanting about the inherent violence of our police and political system is a direct threat of immediate violent action?
I don't think they were chanting about the system, actually; I think they were publicly shaming an individual for failing to demonstrate solidarity.
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Old 28th August 2020, 07:48 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I don't think they were chanting about the system, actually; I think they were publicly shaming an individual for failing to demonstrate solidarity.
sure. Public shaming isn't a threat of violence.

"white silence is violence" is a common protest chant and by no means a individualized threat of violence.
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Old 28th August 2020, 07:59 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Public shaming isn't a threat of violence.
Shaming her for doing violence might well be, though.

Generally speaking, people think it is ethical to react to violence in kind.
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Old 28th August 2020, 08:00 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Shaming her for doing violence might well be, though.

Generally speaking, people think it is ethical to react to violence in kind.
"in kind" would be systematic violence by an indifferent political system, not a punch to the face in the streets.
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Old 28th August 2020, 09:47 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
"in kind" would be systematic violence by an indifferent political system, not a punch to the face in the streets.
If a mob does some violence in the name of their politics, well, at least they aren't indifferent.
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Old 28th August 2020, 10:21 AM   #429
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
But at the end of the day, who cares? Somebody got yelled at.
You seem to care a lot about people getting yelled at in some situations, but not in others. I find it incomprehensible that a rational human would be so comfortable with the clear lack of consistency in applying moral principles. The amount of selectivity involved really does baffle me.
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Old 28th August 2020, 10:25 AM   #430
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
"in kind" would be systematic violence by an indifferent political system, not a punch to the face in the streets.
But a punch in the face on the tube is okay?

Honest questions here:

If the puncher in the tube had been a white bystander, rather then the black man subjected to racist rants, would you approve of Steele being punched?

If the woman sitting in the midst of this mob had been a minority, would you approve of them surrounding her and yelling in her face? Would you still view it as no big deal and just an inconvenience?
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Old 28th August 2020, 10:47 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You seem to care a lot about people getting yelled at in some situations, but not in others. I find it incomprehensible that a rational human would be so comfortable with the clear lack of consistency in applying moral principles. The amount of selectivity involved really does baffle me.
I would be entirely okay with the woman being harassed responding with a good solid punch to the face of the persons getting in her face in that manner. It would be a good deal less punkish than the one layed on the ******* on the train- considering the situations they both found themselves in.

I am not sure ST would disagree.
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Old 28th August 2020, 11:03 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
But a punch in the face on the tube is okay?

Honest questions here:

If the puncher in the tube had been a white bystander, rather then the black man subjected to racist rants, would you approve of Steele being punched?
Yes. Racism is a blight on the entire community, not just individual victims. It's the responsibility of decent people who are able and willing to intervene.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
If the woman sitting in the midst of this mob had been a minority, would you approve of them surrounding her and yelling in her face? Would you still view it as no big deal and just an inconvenience?
I don't "approve" of the original situation. Not sure how many times I have to restate that I think such confrontations are tedious and likely counterproductive. These protesters are real dorks.

I just don't think it's a serious enough breach of public order to be worth crying about, and it's by no means "violence" by any stretch of the imagination. Any amount of digital ink spent on such petty incidences is a waste.
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Old 28th August 2020, 12:09 PM   #433
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't "approve" of the original situation. Not sure how many times I have to restate that I think such confrontations are tedious and likely counterproductive. These protesters are real dorks.

I just don't think it's a serious enough breach of public order to be worth crying about, and it's by no means "violence" by any stretch of the imagination. Any amount of digital ink spent on such petty incidences is a waste.
There's a lot of weasely language in here, ST. Your only objection so far to the mob yelling at her is that it's "tedious" and "not productive". You also keep consistently casting it as a petty incidence that isn't worth discussion, a minor inconvenience, and similar such dismissive commentary. Hell, you can't even say that you disapprove, and the closest you can get is to put approve in quotation marks.

All of this seems to imply that you think it's morally acceptable for a crowd of people in threatening stances to surround an individual, trap them against a wall, and yell at them.
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Old 28th August 2020, 12:14 PM   #434
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
There's a lot of weasely language in here, ST. Your only objection so far to the mob yelling at her is that it's "tedious" and "not productive". You also keep consistently casting it as a petty incidence that isn't worth discussion, a minor inconvenience, and similar such dismissive commentary. Hell, you can't even say that you disapprove, and the closest you can get is to put approve in quotation marks.

All of this seems to imply that you think it's morally acceptable for a crowd of people in threatening stances to surround an individual, trap them against a wall, and yell at them.
We live in turbulent times. This is not an exceptional incident.
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Old 28th August 2020, 12:39 PM   #435
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
We live in turbulent times. This is not an exceptional incident.
It's funny how often misbehavior during "turbulent times" become normalized.
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Old 4th September 2020, 09:43 AM   #436
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Originally Posted by Jared Holt, Right Wing Watch
Come on down to "CancelCon" -- a convention of cancelled people who have six-figure-or-more paying jobs, big online audiences, and appear regularly on TV because they're so cancelled--for a conversation hosted by YAF, which has an operating budget in the tens of millions of $$$
https://twitter.com/jaredlholt?ref_s...Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Featuring Dennis Prager, Adam Carolla, Dave Rubin, and Ben Shaprio. Famously censored voices.
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Old 4th September 2020, 10:15 AM   #437
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://twitter.com/jaredlholt?ref_s...Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Featuring Dennis Prager, Adam Carolla, Dave Rubin, and Ben Shaprio. Famously censored voices.
I have a feeling they all were unable to attend IronyCon this year.

But hey, nothing sets the stage for robust discussion and spirited debate like four rich whites guys who share the same worldview.
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Old 4th September 2020, 10:44 AM   #438
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I have a feeling they all were unable to attend IronyCon this year.

But hey, nothing sets the stage for robust discussion and spirited debate like four rich whites guys who share the same worldview.
What worldview is that? Jewish domination?
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Old 4th September 2020, 11:38 AM   #439
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
What worldview is that? Jewish domination?
The worldview that affluent white guys who get criticized for their odious opinions are some kind of persecuted minority.
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Old 16th September 2020, 09:18 AM   #440
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Alan Dershowitz, free speech defender and author of upcoming book "Cancel Culture", is suing CNN for 300 million for saying means things about him.

https://lawandcrime.com/lawsuit/alan...lost-his-mind/

lol choice quote at the end:

Quote:
The defamation lawsuit against CNN comes at a time when Dershowitz is locked in a defamation lawsuit with Virginia Roberts Giuffre, who claims Dershowitz’s former client Jeffrey Epstein forced her to have sex with Dershowitz when she was a minor. Dershowitz has denied the allegations, saying Giuffre is a liar and that they have never even met.
I'm not saying Dersh is a pedo, but i'm not not saying it either
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