Continuation The One Covid-19 Science and Medicine Thread Part 3

[Rolfe]

I've now seen medics tweeting they owe their lives to their trusty FFP3. I don't know why the term N95 was all over the international media at the start if it's a US thing. If it had been clear from the start that what we should be using were FFP3 masks I'd have been a lot less confused and a fair bit more reassured.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Selective pressure is not confined to a simple pressure in a single individual.

It requires replication for the mutation to arise and it needs to then have favorable conditions for that one individual to spread the virus on plus amplification so it is not stopped.

These mutations have arisen in multiple locations worldwide.

Which is more likely, the mutation arises from gazillions and gazillions of replications or mutations arise in one individual with a selection pressure?

True but, in individuals where their immune system is in rough equilibrium with the virus for months, there is a very strong selective pressure for any mutations that are better at evading the human immune system. EVERY VIRAL GENERATION

If the disease either dominates or is eliminated, such pressure isn't really there.

[Delphic Oracle]

https://www.smilewithvk.com/post/sur...iatric-dentist

Yes, FFP3 is superior to N95, because it is a higher grade designation, not because FFP > N

In addition, anything with an unfiltered exhale valve is totally wrong.

[Rolfe]

Why do you think it's "totally wrong" for vulnerable individuals to seek to protect themselves?

I didn't realise the FFP3 was better than the N95, I was wondering if it was the same thing. Those days of looking at what I had and thinking, it doesn't say N95 on it, but surely our health and safety people would have chosen an appropriate product, I don't know what an FFP3 is, and then googling it and getting specifications for a "dust mask", all very confusing.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Why do you think it's "totally wrong" for vulnerable individuals to seek to protect themselves?

I didn't realise the FFP3 was better than the N95, I was wondering if it was the same thing. Those days of looking at what I had and thinking, it doesn't say N95 on it, but surely our health and safety people would have chosen an appropriate product, I don't know what an FFP3 is, and then googling it and getting specifications for a "dust mask", all very confusing.

It's totally wrong because unless one is among the laziest cretins on the Earth, one has had plenty of opportunity to get masks appropriate for protecting both oneself and others.

I consider continued insistence on using products that don't protect others in the name of one's own comfort or mitigation of inconvenience entirely unacceptable.

[Rolfe]

Now I remember why I wasn't reading your posts. Sorry I said anything, it won't happen again.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Now I remember why I wasn't reading your posts. Sorry I said anything, it won't happen again.

"I have no substantive reply, so I'm going to pretend like the discussion is beneath me."

[Rolfe]

You didn't actually read the document you linked to, did you?

FFP3 masks provide the greatest possible protection for the individual, and if someone has been wearing one whenever they are in an enclosed space with another person, they ain't going to be infected in the first place.

But if there is nevertheless a possibility they might be infected it's perfectly simple to overcome the issue of the exhalation valve, exactly as recommended in that very informative article.

The last thing vulnerable people should be doing is not wearing the best possible protection they can source to keep themselves safe.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

You didn't actually read the document you linked to, did you?

FFP3 masks provide the greatest possible protection for the individual, and if someone has been wearing one whenever they are in an enclosed space with another person, they ain't going to be infected in the first place.

But if there is nevertheless a possibility they might be infected it's perfectly simple to overcome the issue of the exhalation valve, exactly as recommended in that very informative article.

The last thing vulnerable people should be doing is not wearing the best possible protection they can source to keep themselves safe.

I did read it, yes.

No, the greatest possible protection for oneself only at the expense of any protection for others (a specific and narrow distinction I am making and I do not claim any other person or linked article says) is a hopelessly self-centered position.

"I have a really awesome mask, so I won't get sick to begin with" is a statement somewhere between hopeless naivety and mental masturbation.

ETA: I hope I don't need to repeat myself again

It's my opinion, so take it or don't.

*shrug*

[Rolfe]

If you did read it, you didn't understand it.

There is no need to sacrifice any protection for other people if you wear a respirator mask, and the article is quite clear about that and about how to achieve that.

Hint, as we went into the gift shop at the zoo my friend asked me why I was putting another mask over my FFP3, if the FFP3 was state of the art. I explained it to her. Perhaps you find it harder to understand?

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Why do you think it's "totally wrong" for vulnerable individuals to seek to protect themselves?

I am gobsmacked that anyone of any background, let alone a scientific background, would even ask that question.

Masks are not 100% guarantee of not catching Covid.

The other side is neatly covered by Delphic right here:

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

It's totally wrong because unless one is among the laziest cretins on the Earth, one has had plenty of opportunity to get masks appropriate for protecting both oneself and others.

I consider continued insistence on using products that don't protect others in the name of one's own comfort or mitigation of inconvenience entirely unacceptable.

My highlighting.

Wearing a mask that doesn't protect others is unconscionable, to say the very least. You don't know for sure you're not infected, and could go on and infect other people.

In January 2021 I find it incomprehensible anyone needs to have that pointed out to them, but there you go, I was wrong again.

[xjx388]

N95=FFP2
N99=FFP3
N100>FFP3

The N indicates it’s Not oil resistant. An R would mean it’s partially oil Resistant and and P means it’s really oil resistant. The reason you see so much about dust is that it’s what they are designed and tested for. But they work just fine for virus aerosols.

I have worn a 3M half mask with P100 filters (cause that’s what i could find) on it and secured a standard surgical mask around the exhale valve with a rubber band. Protective enough for everyone else; the best protection for me. That setup got me through the past year.

I still got COVID though. I’m in my 8th day of isolation now and my symptoms are largely resolved. I think I just got too comfortable at work and wasn’t as vigilant with the mask as I should have been.

[marting]

Originally Posted by xjx388

N95=FFP2
N99=FFP3
N100>FFP3

The N indicates it’s Not oil resistant. An R would mean it’s partially oil Resistant and and P means it’s really oil resistant. The reason you see so much about dust is that it’s what they are designed and tested for. But they work just fine for virus aerosols.

I have worn a 3M half mask with P100 filters (cause that’s what i could find) on it and secured a standard surgical mask around the exhale valve with a rubber band. Protective enough for everyone else; the best protection for me. That setup got me through the past year.

I still got COVID though. I’m in my 8th day of isolation now and my symptoms are largely resolved. I think I just got too comfortable at work and wasn’t as vigilant with the mask as I should have been.

Any idea how you got it? What kind of work environment?

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by marting

Any idea how you got it? What kind of work environment?

I work in a family medicine clinic. I’m not patient frontline, but I’m the manager so I’m all over the office all day long and I talk to about 10 patients a day. I haven’t been around a lot of people outside that, especially in the time line I could have gotten infected. It almost has to be exposure at work.

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

You didn't actually read the document you linked to, did you?

FFP3 masks provide the greatest possible protection for the individual, and if someone has been wearing one whenever they are in an enclosed space with another person, they ain't going to be infected in the first place.

But if there is nevertheless a possibility they might be infected it's perfectly simple to overcome the issue of the exhalation valve, exactly as recommended in that very informative article.

The last thing vulnerable people should be doing is not wearing the best possible protection they can source to keep themselves safe.

I appreciate this is re-post from the other thread. But not all FFP3 masks have an exhalation port. The main mask we use is a filter in its entirety, and should protect others from the wearer as well as the wearer is protected.
https://www.3m.co.uk/3M/en_GB/compan...2799381&rt=rud
Other manufacturer's masks are available.

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by xjx388

N95=FFP2
N99=FFP3
N100>FFP3

The N indicates it’s Not oil resistant. An R would mean it’s partially oil Resistant and and P means it’s really oil resistant. The reason you see so much about dust is that it’s what they are designed and tested for. But they work just fine for virus aerosols.

I have worn a 3M half mask with P100 filters (cause that’s what i could find) on it and secured a standard surgical mask around the exhale valve with a rubber band. Protective enough for everyone else; the best protection for me. That setup got me through the past year.

I still got COVID though. I’m in my 8th day of isolation now and my symptoms are largely resolved. I think I just got too comfortable at work and wasn’t as vigilant with the mask as I should have been.

There is more to PPE than just wearing it. We also have training in how to take it off without contaminating ourselves. The assumption is the outside of the mask etc. is contaminated. If using this type of mask, you would need to take it off, remove gloves (if worn) wash your hands, put on another mask (+/- glove change), remove the filter, dispose of the filter. Clean the mask with a viralcidal wipe, including where the filter goes. Clean the surface which the mask was on when you were cleaning it. Wash your hands (after removing gloves if worn). Take off your mask, and wash your hands. You will be doing this several times a day, every time you remove your mask to have something to eat or drink etc. You will need to go through the cleaning process otherwise you are at risk of putting a contaminated mask on and infecting yourself.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I am gobsmacked that anyone of any background, let alone a scientific background, would even ask that question.

Masks are not 100% guarantee of not catching Covid.

The other side is neatly covered by Delphic right here:

My highlighting.

Wearing a mask that doesn't protect others is unconscionable, to say the very least. You don't know for sure you're not infected, and could go on and infect other people.

In January 2021 I find it incomprehensible anyone needs to have that pointed out to them, but there you go, I was wrong again.

You're not listening. Wearing a respirator mask doesn't stop you from protecting other people. It's not one thing or the other.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Planigale

I appreciate this is re-post from the other thread. But not all FFP3 masks have an exhalation port. The main mask we use is a filter in its entirety, and should protect others from the wearer as well as the wearer is protected.
https://www.3m.co.uk/3M/en_GB/compan...2799381&rt=rud
Other manufacturer's masks are available.

So far as I know the masks we had for work don't have any exhalation filter, there would have been no requirement for that. But as I keep saying and as several people keep ignoring, it's perfectly easy to put an ordinary cloth or surgical mask on top of the thing, which is what I've been doing and have advised the friends I've given masks to to do.

So you protect yourself as well as you are able to, and you also protect other people. Criticisms of people who don't put the second mask on is perfectly reasonable. Railing against any use of respirator masks is unjustifiable. The more people protect themselves the less virus will be circulating.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Planigale

There is more to PPE than just wearing it. We also have training in how to take it off without contaminating ourselves. The assumption is the outside of the mask etc. is contaminated. If using this type of mask, you would need to take it off, remove gloves (if worn) wash your hands, put on another mask (+/- glove change), remove the filter, dispose of the filter. Clean the mask with a viralcidal wipe, including where the filter goes. Clean the surface which the mask was on when you were cleaning it. Wash your hands (after removing gloves if worn). Take off your mask, and wash your hands. You will be doing this several times a day, every time you remove your mask to have something to eat or drink etc. You will need to go through the cleaning process otherwise you are at risk of putting a contaminated mask on and infecting yourself.

I think that's a good point. It's not easy to manage all that if you're in a potentially dangerous environment all day every day. So many possible points where you can slip up.

It's much easier if you're just using the masks for an hour or less on a shopping trip. I take my masks off carefully, laying them aside on the passenger seat if I'm in the car, or directly on to the vestibule radiator if I just got home. Even if I'm also wearing latex gloves I either wash or sanitise my hands immediately after doing that. Cloth masks go into the washing machine, the paper FFP3 stays on top of the radiator untouched for at least three days. If I carry the masks from the car to the house, again I wash my hands after putting them in their places. (I've also instructed the handful of friends I've given masks to about how to do this.)

Sorry xjx388 got the virus, but glad to hear he's recovering. My neighbour's daughter, who also has Crohn's disease, has got Long Covid now after she and her father became infected in October. I just saw her going into her house. She looks OK and hopefully she'll recover soon, but it just shows you can't take chances with this thing. She's only about twenty.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

If you did read it, you didn't understand it.

There is no need to sacrifice any protection for other people if you wear a respirator mask, and the article is quite clear about that and about how to achieve that.

Hint, as we went into the gift shop at the zoo my friend asked me why I was putting another mask over my FFP3, if the FFP3 was state of the art. I explained it to her. Perhaps you find it harder to understand?

Perhaps it is some of my statements you didn't understand.

My objection arises around the unfiltered exhalation valve.

I'm not weighing in on the whole "mask or respirator" thing (neither efficacy or semantics).

[Rolfe]

You were vehemently denouncing anyone who wore such a mask, apparently with no thought for the fact that the masks are unbeatable for protecting the wearer and so should be encouraged, not condemned, and that the issue of the exhalation valve is easy to get round.