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Old 18th November 2019, 02:32 PM   #81
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Yeah, this is...a bizarre conversation.
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Old 18th November 2019, 02:33 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Yeah, this is...a bizarre conversation.
Yeah and it started off as a discussion about what shape the planet is, so that's saying something.
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Old 18th November 2019, 02:35 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
How do you justify what you do as "skepticism"?
You're not making sense. You have a chip on your shoulder about something and you're speaking in code.

Stop it.
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Old 18th November 2019, 02:35 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You're not making sense. You have a chip on your shoulder about something and you're speaking in code.

Stop it.
Stop acting like a member of some culty hate group out to squash all freethought.
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Old 18th November 2019, 02:36 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Stop acting like a member of some culty hate group out to squash all freethought.
That's exactly what he was talking about. That's not what he's ever said. That's you reading a hell of a lot into everything that's been said from...somewhere.
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Old 18th November 2019, 02:37 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Stop acting like a member of some culty hate group out to squash all freethought.
I'd laugh if I though you were serious.
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Old 18th November 2019, 02:38 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'd laugh if I though you were serious.
Then laugh, man, because that's what y'all are acting like.
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Old 18th November 2019, 02:39 PM   #88
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Okay... is this one of those troll persona's I'm supposed recognize as some amazing Poe?

You're off your rocker. Either you're trolling or you have a legit mental illness. Either way, we're done.
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Old 18th November 2019, 02:45 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay... is this one of those troll persona's I'm supposed recognize as some amazing Poe?

You're off your rocker. Either you're trolling or you have a legit mental illness. Either way, we're done.
Or you've joined an online hate group masquerading as "skepticism".
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Old 18th November 2019, 02:46 PM   #90
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Just to toss this out here, flat earth belief doesn't even qualify as freethought, in the philosophical sense. In fact, it's almost exactly the opposite.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freethought
Quote:
Freethought (or free thought) is an epistemological viewpoint which holds that positions regarding truth should be formed only on the basis of logic, reason, and empiricism, rather than authority, tradition, revelation, or dogma.
So blabbering about freethought meaning "flat earth" is just a display of one's own ignorance.
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Old 18th November 2019, 02:47 PM   #91
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Well. I couldn't not have asked for a better example of what I was talking about. If I had actually described someone reacting to be told they are wrong like you have, it would have been dismissed as a strawman.
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Old 18th November 2019, 03:14 PM   #92
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I think first there seems to be a question of what "freethought" means, but also a question of what boundaries exist in an actual society when your thoughts leave your immediate surroundings and go out into the world.

I realize that being on one side as opposed to another often leads to an inherent double bind. If you're against hate, you cannot meet haters on level ground, if you're against violence, you can't shoot the person who is shooting at you, and so forth. But I balk when it seems we must stand by and watch while those we truly believe to be wrong call us names and trash the earth around us. You are not the only one free to say things. I am too. At what magical point does expression become "squashing" for one side but never the other?

Freedom of thought is not freedom of action. You're free to think that the earth is flat or that Adam's children rode dinosaurs to school, or that coal is clean, but setting aside the sinophobic rants, no, I don't think you should teach that crap in my schools or run my country with impunity on the premise that opposition is improper.
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Old 18th November 2019, 03:30 PM   #93
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Quote:
"I absolutely freaked out," Weiss tells CNN in a phone interview. "It literally whips the rug out from underneath you."
Why would a rug pulling out from you matter, since gravity isn't a real thing?
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Old 18th November 2019, 03:31 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think first there seems to be a question of what "freethought" means, but also a question of what boundaries exist in an actual society when your thoughts leave your immediate surroundings and go out into the world.

I realize that being on one side as opposed to another often leads to an inherent double bind. If you're against hate, you cannot meet haters on level ground, if you're against violence, you can't shoot the person who is shooting at you, and so forth. But I balk when it seems we must stand by and watch while those we truly believe to be wrong call us names and trash the earth around us. You are not the only one free to say things. I am too. At what magical point does expression become "squashing" for one side but never the other?

Freedom of thought is not freedom of action. You're free to think that the earth is flat or that Adam's children rode dinosaurs to school, or that coal is clean, but setting aside the sinophobic rants, no, I don't think you should teach that crap in my schools or run my country with impunity on the premise that opposition is improper.
Well stated
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Old 18th November 2019, 03:32 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
How does flat earth theory hurt anyone, though?
Flat Earth is anti-science. They claim that Gravity is a myth, and that space doesn't exist.

If left unchecked to fool more people, whom they are hurting with their ignorance, we could one day be seeing people on education boards demanding that their flat-earth "science" is taught, just as we see those demanding that Young Earth Creationism is taught. More so we will start to have them appearing on the boards and committees that fund the likes of LIGO and projects such as the Kepler Telescope.

There is a US President in power currently that believes a lot of Conspiracy theories, including Climate Denial, and has caused and allowed major damage to the environment in just 3 years. What happens when a Globe Denier manages a similar feat and disbands NASA and demands that those involved with it are prosecuted for steal tax payer money?

These are the very real potential harms of it, and if we wait until it gets that far, then it's going to already be too late.
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Old 18th November 2019, 03:34 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
How did y'all come across the word "skepticism" to describe yourselves?

You know Carl Sagan would be horrified by you, right? But Sagan's skepticism is for pussies or something?


“It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out.”

― Carl Sagan
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Old 18th November 2019, 03:41 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
“It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out.”

― Carl Sagan
Or from another quote, one that I'd consider the essence of freethought:

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
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Old 18th November 2019, 03:45 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think first there seems to be a question of what "freethought" means, but also a question of what boundaries exist in an actual society when your thoughts leave your immediate surroundings and go out into the world.

I realize that being on one side as opposed to another often leads to an inherent double bind. If you're against hate, you cannot meet haters on level ground, if you're against violence, you can't shoot the person who is shooting at you, and so forth. But I balk when it seems we must stand by and watch while those we truly believe to be wrong call us names and trash the earth around us. You are not the only one free to say things. I am too. At what magical point does expression become "squashing" for one side but never the other?

Freedom of thought is not freedom of action. You're free to think that the earth is flat or that Adam's children rode dinosaurs to school, or that coal is clean, but setting aside the sinophobic rants, no, I don't think you should teach that crap in my schools or run my country with impunity on the premise that opposition is improper.


Or, to quote Mr T:
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I AGREE
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Old 18th November 2019, 08:45 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Or you've joined an online hate group masquerading as "skepticism".
That seems a bit extreme. I don't see anyone here taking that position. Not bullying, sadism or hate.

Speaking only for myself, I don't hate anyone simply for holding false beliefs. I try not to hate anyone, but skeptics are only human too, after all. Annoyance and exasperation that this is still a thing and that we can't even get simple agreement on basic, demonstrable facts might better describe how I feel about it.

I would like to know what a better approach would be, since calmly and matter-of-factly explaining the actual facts seems to have negligible effectiveness.

Quote:
How does flat earth theory hurt anyone, though?
There's a quote from the Chernobyl miniseries:
Quote:
What is the cost of lies? It's not that we'll mistake them for the truth. The real danger is that if we hear enough lies, then we no longer recognize the truth at all. What can we do then? What else is left but to abandon even the hope of truth and content ourselves instead with stories? In these stories, it doesn't matter who the heroes are. All we want to know is: "Who is to blame?"
It's interesting that people who believe that the earth is flat all seem to also believe a host of other conspiracy theories. You have to believe that the moon landing was a hoax. You have to believe that any photograph taken of the earth from space is fake. You pretty much have to believe that NASA, and astronomers, and the whole of modern science is a vast conspiracy to deceive the people.

It's hard to put my finger on precisely what specific harm follows from this, but I really do wish that we all at least had a common set of facts to work from. I can accept differences of opinion. But when we can't even agree on the basic, objective facts, I do think that harm follows from that. We splinter into opposing camps, each of which has a fundamentally different worldview. It's near impossible to work for common goals, such as combating climate change, if a large group of people don't even believe that climate change is real.
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Old 19th November 2019, 03:55 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
That seems a bit extreme. I don't see anyone here taking that position. Not bullying, sadism or hate.

Speaking only for myself, I don't hate anyone simply for holding false beliefs. I try not to hate anyone, but skeptics are only human too, after all. Annoyance and exasperation that this is still a thing and that we can't even get simple agreement on basic, demonstrable facts might better describe how I feel about it.

I would like to know what a better approach would be, since calmly and matter-of-factly explaining the actual facts seems to have negligible effectiveness.



There's a quote from the Chernobyl miniseries:


It's interesting that people who believe that the earth is flat all seem to also believe a host of other conspiracy theories. You have to believe that the moon landing was a hoax. You have to believe that any photograph taken of the earth from space is fake. You pretty much have to believe that NASA, and astronomers, and the whole of modern science is a vast conspiracy to deceive the people.

It's hard to put my finger on precisely what specific harm follows from this, but I really do wish that we all at least had a common set of facts to work from. I can accept differences of opinion. But when we can't even agree on the basic, objective facts, I do think that harm follows from that. We splinter into opposing camps, each of which has a fundamentally different worldview. It's near impossible to work for common goals, such as combating climate change, if a large group of people don't even believe that climate change is real.
When you just try to cause psychological pain (with some sort of humiliation, or low grade social torturing, or gaslighting...things YOU personally NEVER do) to people for expressing a viewpoint you see as misguided, it doesn't persuade them. It just makes them seek a place free from "you" to work things out and suss out the wheat from the chaff in this BS-laden world .

You say "we can't even get simple agreement on basic, demonstrable facts," but the hate group doesn't start there with people and work it out from there to the actual logical deduction. You (to whatever extent you are part of the hate group) don't go for the agreement first, like "you" should. You go right into low-grade psychological torture "you" think they "deserve" (oh, vomit) for not being so sure about that fact and needing persuasion.

It's so anti-social and counterproductive and the exact opposite of the good and pure skepticism Sagan promoted. Please tell me you can at least kind of see that. You're a skeptic, but your crowd you fell in with? These folks are just sadists. That's all. Nothing else to see here. They've been given a "cover" to do what they do because of the troubeling reality of how conspiracy theories and some specific types of other woo online can result in real damage aspect, but impure motives are going to result in effed up outcomes every time. It almost definitely drives some of them into "alt light" stuff, to "alt right" ******** ending with them listening to true believers in the "human biodiversity" stuff. Or whatever it is those people fall into where they find the authority figures they seek if they're not taught how to become ********-proof.

Puppy, you have got to go apostate on the hate group, or you are complicit in the harm.
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Last edited by kellyb; 19th November 2019 at 04:46 AM.
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Old 19th November 2019, 04:20 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
There ought to be consequences for being wrong about flat earth.
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Consequence-free contrarianism is its own reward.
Then Joe goes with the "we're all right and enlightened, and the problem is you" technique, which convinces NOBODY besides yourselves, if that.


Originally Posted by me processing Joe's possible motive or whatever phenomenon this this, to just dismiss anyone who got sucked into weirdness via the weird corners of youtube, or wherever else they got into some woo, and how it became the "enlightened" position to take in that circle, to just psychologically torture believers
you've joined an online hate group masquerading as "skepticism".
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
That seems a bit extreme. I don't see anyone here taking that position. Not bullying, sadism or hate.


It's just hate and sadism and bullying, and they're super into it, Puppy. People get addicted to that stuff online. Stop giving these weirdos cover by legitimizing them with your quasi-participation in it, and rationalization of it.
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Last edited by kellyb; 19th November 2019 at 04:32 AM.
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Old 19th November 2019, 04:21 AM   #102
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What conversation are you having? Who are you talking to?
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Old 19th November 2019, 04:36 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What conversation are you having? Who are you talking to?
I'm talking to Puppycow. I'm hoping the Darat chimes in, since he's our actually benevolent "dictator" here.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited for breach of rule 0 and rule 12
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Last edited by Agatha; 19th November 2019 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 19th November 2019, 04:46 AM   #104
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*Laughs* Jesus. Watching someone get triggered over the very idea of telling people they are wrong to this degree, crafting fantasies about hate-cults.

I almost want to thank you. I couldn't have written a character to prove my point better.
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Old 19th November 2019, 05:21 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
When you just try to cause psychological pain (with some sort of humiliation, or low grade social torturing, or gaslighting...things YOU personally NEVER do) to people for expressing a viewpoint you see as misguided, it doesn't persuade them. It just makes them seek a place free from "you" to work things out and suss out the wheat from the chaff in this BS-laden world .

You say "we can't even get simple agreement on basic, demonstrable facts," but the hate group doesn't start there with people and work it out from there to the actual logical deduction. You (to whatever extent you are part of the hate group) don't go for the agreement first, like "you" should. You go right into low-grade psychological torture "you" think they "deserve" (oh, vomit) for not being so sure about that fact and needing persuasion.

It's so anti-social and counterproductive and the exact opposite of the good and pure skepticism Sagan promoted. Please tell me you can at least kind of see that. You're a skeptic, but your crowd you fell in with? These folks are just sadists. That's all. Nothing else to see here. They've been given a "cover" to do what they do because of the troubeling reality of how conspiracy theories and some specific types of other woo online can result in real damage aspect, but impure motives are going to result in effed up outcomes every time. It almost definitely drives some of them into "alt light" stuff, to "alt right" ******** ending with them listening to true believers in the "human biodiversity" stuff. Or whatever it is those people fall into where they find the authority figures they seek if they're not taught how to become ********-proof.

Puppy, you have got to go apostate on the hate group, or you are complicit in the harm.
So if I understand correctly, the point you're making is that being mean to people is counterproductive. You said something earlier about how this is why people vote for Trump. Because they're sick of being sneered at by the "liberal elites" so they vote for a pugnacious populist who will stand up for them. OK, fair enough. That's a valid point. But I don't think the motives are what you ascribe. Skeptics are just people too with limited time and patience for nonsense. I certainly don't have the time ot patience to hand-hold every conspiracy theorist and gently explain the flaws in their reasoning. Lord knows I've tried. It has never worked. So I guess the best thing is just ignore it and let them figure it out for themselves. Or not.
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Old 19th November 2019, 06:09 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
You said something earlier about how this is why people vote for Trump. Because they're sick of being sneered at by the "liberal elites" so they vote for a pugnacious populist who will stand up for them. OK, fair enough. That's a valid point. But I don't think the motives are what you ascribe.

It's part of how you get q-anon and pizzagate and Benghazi!!!! and all that other stupid **** making Trump possible.

The motives with these hate groupers are absolutely sadism and the fun of being part of a dog pile and bad things like that. It's not altruism, that's for damn sure.
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:14 AM   #107
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Yeah....no.
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Old 19th November 2019, 09:50 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It's part of how you get q-anon and pizzagate and Benghazi!!!! and all that other stupid **** making Trump possible.

The motives with these hate groupers are absolutely sadism and the fun of being part of a dog pile and bad things like that. It's not altruism, that's for damn sure.
Gwyneth Paltrow has 1.3 million followers on FaceBook. This Forum has fewer than 1000 active members.

To blame skeptics for the creation of magical thinkers is the height of . . . ..

We are still staggering out of the Dark Ages.
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Old 19th November 2019, 10:01 AM   #109
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You know, "liberal elite" should really mean something more than "believes in the world as it actually exists."
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Old 19th November 2019, 10:36 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
You know, "liberal elite" should really mean something more than "believes in the world as it actually exists."
Pretty much.

The issue with things like Flat Earth isn't so much the belief itself; it's the absolute repudiation of the ideals of freethought that lead to that belief. To hold a Flat Earth belief in this day and age takes an astounding level of ignorance...not just that, but it requires one to actively refute the foundations of freethought: a rejection of logic, reason, and empiricism. A denial of objective reality, a refusal of fact. It relies on that aforementioned revelation and dogma to exist.

In short, it is "WrongThink", in the sense of someone not thinking correctly. And I make no allowances for it.

Now, taking that and assuming I'm sharpening the knives for my new pogrom is quite a bit of an intuitive leap...another that seems to rely more on revelation than on logic and reason. But there are some people that you simply can't reach to change their minds, whether you're mean to them, or not, because they actively resist rational thought.

I do believe in "more flies with honey" and so forth, but at a point where you lay out the honey and the flies spit on it, accuse you of poisoning it, and try to bite you...the only thing you can do is either walk away or get out the flyswatter.

ETA: Well, technically, flies are even more attracted to bullstuff. But covering ourselves in that is the whole thing we're trying to avoid as skeptics, I thought
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Old 19th November 2019, 11:34 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
How did y'all come across the word "skepticism" to describe yourselves?
Who appointed you the guardian of skeptical purity?
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Old 19th November 2019, 12:26 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Who appointed you the guardian of skeptical purity?
Please try to keep up, Carl Sagan appointed her!
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Old 19th November 2019, 01:04 PM   #113
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Okay I can't believe I'm having to explain this to grown person but here we go.

The comparison on opposition to Flat Eartherism with some like Pizzagate is, and keep up with me here and let me know where I lose you, Pizzagate is factually incorrect and Flat Eartherism is factually incorrect.

*Very slowly, as if speaking to a child* Being adamant you are right when you are right and being adamant you are right when you are wrong are different things.

"Facts Exist" used to be something we could agree on, no matter how much we disagreed on what those facts where, but we're in the Post-Truth era now.
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Old 19th November 2019, 02:12 PM   #114
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A.People have a right to believe and say really stupid crap.
B.I have a right to ridicule it and show that it is stupid crap.
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Old 19th November 2019, 04:05 PM   #115
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Though this thread seems a better fit for the General Skepticism section .
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Old 19th November 2019, 04:29 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Though this thread seems a better fit for the General Skepticism section .

The idea of a flat Earth would fit better in General Skepticism, but the implementation of the cover-up, and the lie that the Earth is nearly spherical, would seem to fit into the Conspiracy area.

The conspiracy comes in because hundreds of thousands of people have traveled by sea or air in the southern hemisphere who would have noticed that the distances are much greater than a globe would indicate. They must all be lying to us for some reason.
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Old 19th November 2019, 04:48 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
The idea of a flat Earth would fit better in General Skepticism, but the implementation of the cover-up, and the lie that the Earth is nearly spherical, would seem to fit into the Conspiracy area.



The conspiracy comes in because hundreds of thousands of people have traveled by sea or air in the southern hemisphere who would have noticed that the distances are much greater than a globe would indicate. They must all be lying to us for some reason.
If the guy who fuels planes for London to NY flights decides that they really only need some small fraction of the fuel used on a trip from Cape Town to Buenos Aires, because that's so much further on the flat earth, then telling him he's wrong is not some kind of psychologist torture. It's fact versus fiction.
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Old 19th November 2019, 05:08 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
The idea of a flat Earth would fit better in General Skepticism, but the implementation of the cover-up, and the lie that the Earth is nearly spherical, would seem to fit into the Conspiracy area.

The conspiracy comes in because hundreds of thousands of people have traveled by sea or air in the southern hemisphere who would have noticed that the distances are much greater than a globe would indicate. They must all be lying to us for some reason.
To believe in flat earth in this century requires you to believe in a massive conspiracy theory. You have to believe that anyone involved in the aerospace industry is involved. Anyone who has traveled to Antarctica. It also requires a lot of willful ignorance.

I'd like to note that one of the best proofs of globe earth is simply the photographs we have of the earth from space. These are perfectly valid forms of evidence and simply declaring them to be fake is not a good faith argument. You either have to declare them fake or concede that the world is round as shown by the photos. But simply not accepting that goes against what you want to believe doesn't make the evidence any less valid.
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Old 19th November 2019, 06:33 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
The idea of a flat Earth would fit better in General Skepticism, but the implementation of the cover-up, and the lie that the Earth is nearly spherical, would seem to fit into the Conspiracy area.

The conspiracy comes in because hundreds of thousands of people have traveled by sea or air in the southern hemisphere who would have noticed that the distances are much greater than a globe would indicate. They must all be lying to us for some reason.
It's called mass hypnosis, Mr Elitist Weisenheimer.
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:19 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A.People have a right to believe and say really stupid crap.
B.I have a right to ridicule it and show that it is stupid crap.
It's absolutely your right. I begrudge no one their anti-social, hedonistic pleasures as long as they're still technically legal.

I'm just noting that it has nothing to do with skepticism. It's online hate group mob behavior with absolutely no socially useful function, and it does demonstrable harm.
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