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Old 11th January 2017, 04:24 AM   #521
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
There's a monumental difference between opposing the methods and means employed by a specific movement (which I do oppose) and opposing the message that the movement is supposed to be evangelizing.

I 100% agree that there is a huge systemic disparity in the US, on the basis of race. The judiciary and law enforcement systems are biased, societal expectations and suppositions are biased. Those institutional biases absolutely need to be addressed, and I fully support doing so.

But I also completely disagree with many of the tactics used by the BLM organization.
And feminism is fundamentaly a sexist movement.

Criminal scum has always been fundamental to the black movement, look at all the crimes Martin Luther King committed. He was not embraced by the white establishment while he was alive, and should be viewed as the criminal thug he was. Look at his most famous march, that was totally illegally blocking public roads. The cops put it down as they should. We really need a movie that shows the cops in the Selma march as the heroes they should be to real americans.
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Old 11th January 2017, 04:26 AM   #522
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Yes. Unfortunately, our (US) systems are often...lacking.



That's a nice thing to say. The dispute of Black Lives Matter is that very often, it seems as if black lives are taken for no reason, and without consequence. It's certainly true that the humans who tortured that poor mentally challenged 18-year old should be punished, but let's turn this lens onto, say, George Zimmerman...

I'm sure you agree with me there.
Or the white football players who raped a black student with a coathanger who get no permanent criminal record.

As such it seems the standard of punishment for these people should be 2 years probation then having their records purged. That would be an equal punishment.
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Old 11th January 2017, 04:32 AM   #523
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Originally Posted by jeffas69 View Post
It is a nice thing to say and it is absolutely true. It also "seems" to me that the thousands of young black innocent lives that are lost to inner city gang violence should be the primary focus of any organization with Black Lives Matter in its name.
And if a bunch of innocent people are killed with no consequence by the police and the public regards it as OK and proper by the police there is no need to change that public opinion. Like how much support the police officer got from the public for stomping on a black girl who had the gall to use the swimming pool in her own neighborhood.

Now to figure out who supports the violence in the inner cities like people support the violence of the police.
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Old 11th January 2017, 04:33 AM   #524
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Not quite my point, but true. And yeah, possible separate thread.

My point was that, if that **** who stuck a hanger up a mentally challenged kid's rectum had done it in front of a camera on Facebook Live, there would have been a similar uproar. There's no real need to say "well, let's compare this case to that case." They're both disgusting and awful, in their own way.
But legally one of them is boys being boys, and not something that merits a permanent criminal record.
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Old 11th January 2017, 04:35 AM   #525
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Here is another such attack:

Bomb threats target Jewish community centers from Florida to New Jersey

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ida-new-jersey

I actually found this story while trying to disprove a claim by Coast2Coast AMs 'science advisor' that the mainstream media was not reporting the story.
Bah, 'waves hand dismissively' that is just basic trolling. We are looking only for serious things not unsubstantiated threats. Next you will think that high school kids chanting build a wall at hispanic students is racist instead of fun childish games.
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Old 11th January 2017, 04:44 AM   #526
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Massive Wave of Hate Crimes against minorities follows Trump election.

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Old 11th January 2017, 06:19 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But legally one of them is boys being boys, and not something that merits a permanent criminal record.
That's true.

So let's judge both equally. Put both sets of offenders away until they know better.

I know I joke about putting people under the jail, or sending them to space prison. In truth, they may (*may*) know much better in their 40s and beyond. And if that's true, then better to let them out than to keep them locked up...
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Old 11th January 2017, 01:43 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
So, you want this fight, huh?

Well, let's do it, then...
Fight? Nope not at all. Its a discussion. No need to get angry or personal. (Not saying you are. Just telling you I am not)

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And why should they focus where you want?
Why should they? That should be obvious. If black lives matter then saving the most black lives should be the focus regardless of what I think. Correct?

Quote:
An of course many of the activists with Black Lives Matter have been involved with ending street-level violence. The fact that you've missed all of the rallies, sponsorships, meals...means that *you* are not interested.
I did say "primary" focus which should tell you I am aware that they have other concerns. The fact that very little of the other activities get national news coverage means that many others besides me may not be interested and that should be very concerning to you. And when you say that "I" am not interested, then you are not stating anything that is factual.

Lets go another direction. In the last few years homicides in this country are going up after many years of trending down. If you can prove to me that the Black Lives Matter movement has nothing to do with this. I will gladly shut up.


Quote:
Yep, I'll discuss Zimmerman really. The guy's still a racist and a murderer. No, he did not act in self-defense when he decided to chase a young person down the street for having the wrong skin color.

Seems pretty obvious. Until the murderer spins a tale where the black guy he chased down was a "thug" who was on weed, spouting blaxploitation lines.

Now, let's get back to reality. How about we punish actual, "I wanted to harm others", crime, rather than a standard that chooses based on skin color, or who was on Facebook, or whatever?
The Zimmerman/Martin case is long over. He can never be charged again in that crime. Correct? A jury found him innocent due to lack of evidence to convict. There was no video of him kidnapping and torturing someone so the comparison to the four Chicago yutes is way off. That was the point.
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Old 11th January 2017, 01:50 PM   #529
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As has been discussed endlessly on this issue, the reason that saying "but all lives matter" as a response to "black lives matter" is dismissive is because if someone said "I'm fighting against breast cancer" you wouldn't wag your finger in their face and tell them "but all cancer is bad!" and accuse them of unfairness.

It's attempting to suggest that there's an invisible "only" at the beginning of the statement.

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Old 11th January 2017, 02:21 PM   #530
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
As has been discussed endlessly on this issue, the reason that saying "but all lives matter" as a response to "black lives matter" is dismissive is because if someone said "I'm fighting against breast cancer" you wouldn't wag your finger in their face and tell them "but all cancer is bad!" and accuse them of unfairness.

It's attempting to suggest that there's an invisible "only" at the beginning of the statement.
All true. However if you are vociferously fighting a very small cause of some breast cancer and ignoring a primary cause of most breast cancer and most other cancers. And in addition the way you are fighting it may actually be an influence to an actual increase in breast cancer overall then there may be a problem. I would take a step back and try and find a better way to fight breast cancer.
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Old 11th January 2017, 02:30 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by jeffas69 View Post
All true. However if you are vociferously fighting a very small cause of some breast cancer and ignoring a primary cause of most breast cancer and most other cancers.
You didn't finish that sentence, but let's say that was the case.

Does that immediately suggest the person 'doesn't care' about other cancers or causes of cancers?

Quote:
And in addition the way you are fighting it may actually be an influence to an actual increase in breast cancer overall then there may be a problem. I would take a step back and try and find a better way to fight breast cancer.
Can you demonstrate this is the case or are you just packing down the analogy with enough ******** to reduce it to irrelevance?

Besides, if that were the case, then the response would not be "but all cancers are bad!" then would it? You're describing something way more nuanced than what the "all lives matter' retort is invoked for and would not apply to.

My point still stands, that the 'yeah, but...' response can literally be used against anyone saying they take a stand against some kind of social ill and inherently relies on the presupposition that the person doing so is 'for' every other kind of social ill. In other words, yet more dichotomous nonsense.

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Old 11th January 2017, 02:43 PM   #532
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I think "black lives matter" is a reasonable response to a real problem. I think it's a valid basis for activism to address that problem. I think that "all lives matter" is unnecessary, dismissive, and counterproductive.

I'm not sure how exactly the BLM movement turned into the crapshow it's become. I suspect that the counter-cry of "all lives matter" contributed to the souring of the debate. BLM also seems to have been associated in some places and times with violent dickery and the more counter-productive forms of protest. Blocking commuter traffic didn't help their cause much. Like Saint Paul said, "For me all things are permitted, but not all things serve my purpose".
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Old 11th January 2017, 03:15 PM   #533
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is harmless trolling, like rape and death threats.
Cross burning is not "harmless trolling". It is a serious crime in all 50 states, and since the Supreme Court ruled that cross burning done with the intent of intimidation is not protected free speech, individual states can and do regularly prosecute public cross burnings as bias/hate crimes.

Don't believe me? Go try it and see what happens.

I don't see what your problem is. If you see a cross burning incident, do what everyone else does and call the goddamn police.

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Old 11th January 2017, 03:19 PM   #534
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think "black lives matter" is a reasonable response to a real problem. I think it's a valid basis for activism to address that problem. I think that "all lives matter" is unnecessary, dismissive, and counterproductive.
Right. You can focus on one problem without it meaning that you applaud other problems. (We don’t criticize Cancer charities when they don’t give equal focus to Lupus. )


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not sure how exactly the BLM movement turned into the crapshow it's become. I suspect that the counter-cry of "all lives matter" contributed to the souring of the debate. BLM also seems to have been associated in some places and times with violent dickery and the more counter-productive forms of protest. Blocking commuter traffic didn't help their cause much. Like Saint Paul said, "For me all things are permitted, but not all things serve my purpose".
The frustrating thing about the movement is that it seems (from a headline reading perspective) to go all out in campaigning against “good” shoots, while letting the “questionable” police shootings drop out of sight. All the riots and mass protests seem (again, the high altitude view from CNN – maybe its different on the ground) to be in response to bad actors who assaulted or struggled with police. The cases where folks were shot despite having done nothing wrong seem not to generate the same level of activity.
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Old 11th January 2017, 03:26 PM   #535
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Originally Posted by willim View Post
Cross burning is not "harmless trolling". It is a serious crime in all 50 states, and since the Supreme Court ruled that cross burning done with the intent of intimidation is not protected free speech, individual states can and do regularly prosecute public cross burnings as bias/hate crimes.

Don't believe me? Go try it and see what happens.

I don't see what your problem is. If you see a cross burning incident, do what everyone else does and call the goddamn police.
ponderingturtle was being sarcastic. He is attempting to represent a position he thinks other people hold, but which he himself disagrees with.
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Old 11th January 2017, 03:41 PM   #536
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
ponderingturtle was being sarcastic. He is attempting to represent a position he thinks other people hold, but which he himself disagrees with.
Acting as if hard won legislation does not exist just to make a point is not acceptable to me.
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Old 11th January 2017, 03:41 PM   #537
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
You didn't finish that sentence, but let's say that was the case.

Does that immediately suggest the person 'doesn't care' about other cancers or causes of cancers?
No it doesn't and I did not suggest that it did. Does saying all lives matter suggest that one does not care about black lives?

Quote:
Can you demonstrate this is the case or are you just packing down the analogy with enough ******** to reduce it to irrelevance?

Besides, if that were the case, then the response would not be "but all cancers are bad!" then would it? You're describing something way more nuanced than what the "all lives matter' retort is invoked for and would not apply to.

My point still stands, that the 'yeah, but...' response can literally be used against anyone saying they take a stand against some kind of social ill and inherently relies on the presupposition that the person doing so is 'for' every other kind of social ill. In other words, yet more dichotomous nonsense.
No I cannot demonstrate it. Does that mean it is not possible? After decades of crime and homicide numbers going down. Homicides now seem to be trending back up. We have an issue now where active policing is going down, there is more paperwork in places like Chicago, recruiting is down, police are quitting or retiring earlier. Is it all just coincidental that it is happening at the same time as the black lives matter movement? I don't know but it seems to be a reasonable assumption to me.

I haven't said "all lives matter" in response to black lives matter. So maybe your reponse wasnt directed to me and I apologize if I assumed that to be the case. I also do not subscribe to the highlighted. I think I have been arguing something else.
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Old 11th January 2017, 04:05 PM   #538
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
As has been discussed endlessly on this issue, the reason that saying "but all lives matter" as a response to "black lives matter" is dismissive is because if someone said "I'm fighting against breast cancer" you wouldn't wag your finger in their face and tell them "but all cancer is bad!" and accuse them of unfairness.
Those two statements aren't remotely equivalent.

If I said "colon cancer matters" necessarily I am implying that the issue is people who think colon cancer doesn't matter, which I wouldn't be doing if I said "I am campaigning for better treatment of colon cancer". If the people you direct your campaign towards already agreed that "colon cancer matters", it would be a ridiculous and redundant thing to say. With "colon cancer matters" you are attributing beliefs to your opponents, with "I am campaigning for better treatment of colon cancer" you aren't.

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Old 11th January 2017, 04:17 PM   #539
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Originally Posted by jeffas69 View Post
No it doesn't and I did not suggest that it did. Does saying all lives matter suggest that one does not care about black lives?
You've moved the goalposts. We're discussing "all lives matter" as a retort to "black lives matter" and why such a response either misses the point entirely or attempts to paint the latter as hostile to the former.

Quote:
No I cannot demonstrate it. Does that mean it is not possible? After decades of crime and homicide numbers going down. Homicides now seem to be trending back up. We have an issue now where active policing is going down, there is more paperwork in places like Chicago, recruiting is down, police are quitting or retiring earlier. Is it all just coincidental that it is happening at the same time as the black lives matter movement? I don't know but it seems to be a reasonable assumption to me.
The choices are not limited to "It's BLMs fault" and "inexplicable coincidence" so you need to bring some evidence of a causal link or I'm forced to conclude that any of 500 different reasons (or combinations thereof) that could explain the trends you describe have just as much validity.

Quote:
I haven't said "all lives matter" in response to black lives matter. So maybe your reponse wasnt directed to me and I apologize if I assumed that to be the case. I also do not subscribe to the highlighted. I think I have been arguing something else.
I'm explaining why that kind of response is not appropriate which in no way suggests you did so.
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Old 11th January 2017, 04:24 PM   #540
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Those two statements aren't remotely equivalent.

If I said "colon cancer matters" necessarily I am implying that the issue is people who think colon cancer doesn't matter, which I wouldn't be doing if I said "I am campaigning for better treatment of colon cancer". If the people you direct your campaign towards already agreed that "colon cancer matters", it would be a ridiculous and redundant thing to say. With "colon cancer matters" you are attributing beliefs to your opponents, with "I am campaigning for better treatment of colon cancer" you aren't.
Do you deny that there are people in the U.S., including those in positions of authority, who believe black lives are less valuable than others?

Can you explain the disparity in socioeconomic conditions of black people without the existence of institutionalized racism?

Apparently, in the context of the analogy as presented, we do not all collectively agree that "colon cancer matters" so continuing to strongly advocate that it does is entirely appropriate.
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Old 11th January 2017, 05:15 PM   #541
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Do you deny that there are people in the U.S., including those in positions of authority, who believe black lives are less valuable than others?
I assume there are some, but presumably they will agree that black lives don't matter and won't be won over by the campaign. The target of the campaign must surely be the overwhelming majority of people who in fact think black lives do matter.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Can you explain the disparity in socioeconomic conditions of black people without the existence of institutionalized racism?
Do you mean institutional racism now, or in the past? I certainly agree it existed in the past and the socioeconomic impact of that will probably still be being felt in 100 years. Whether it exists now to a sufficient degree to drive the socioeconomic issues you mention or justify BLM is another question. It seems like a complex issue that I'd have to put quite a bit of time into researching to have my own view on. I can certainly empathise with people who think it doesn't exist. There are perfectly plausible looking accounts of how black shootings by police are driven by black violence. Whether this is true or not isn't the point. Most people don't get their news from multiple perspectives and then build spreadsheets of police shootings to work out who to believe. Accusing people who think it doesn't exist of thinking that black lives don't matter seems counterproductive if they are the intended recipients of the message.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Apparently, in the context of the analogy as presented, we do not all collectively agree that "colon cancer matters" so continuing to strongly advocate that it does is entirely appropriate.
Unless you have a situation where pretty much everybody does agree that colon cancer matters just as much as any other cancer, but there are disagreements about the allocation of resources because some people feel that more funds should be spent on cancers impacting the young, others feel that more should go on cancers with the highest mortality, others that more should be spent on cancers that impact the most number of people, and the statistics are incomplete and contensted. If you then make your campaign "colon cancer matters", you might piss people off.
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Old 11th January 2017, 05:39 PM   #542
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I assume there are some, but presumably they will agree that black lives don't matter and won't be won over by the campaign. The target of the campaign must surely be the overwhelming majority of people who in fact think black lives do matter.
Maybe it is addressed to people who think black lives matter but are unaware of the impacts caused by those who don't or want to dismiss it as something that only happened in the past or offer up numerous excuses for why that reference everything under the sun except plain-as-day bigotry.

Quote:
Do you mean institutional racism now, or in the past? I certainly agree it existed in the past and the socioeconomic impact of that will probably still be being felt in 100 years. Whether it exists now to a sufficient degree to drive the socioeconomic issues you mention or justify BLM is another question. It seems like a complex issue that I'd have to put quite a bit of time into researching to have my own view on. I can certainly empathise with people who think it doesn't exist. There are perfectly plausible looking accounts of how black shootings by police are driven by black violence. Whether this is true or not isn't the point. Most people don't get their news from multiple perspectives and then build spreadsheets of police shootings to work out who to believe. Accusing people who think it doesn't exist of thinking that black lives don't matter seems counterproductive if they are the intended recipients of the message.
Like this.

"Black Lives Matter" is a statement. That you hear it as an accusation claiming you don't think so is your own problem.

Quote:
Unless you have a situation where pretty much everybody does agree that colon cancer matters just as much as any other cancer, but there are disagreements about the allocation of resources because some people feel that more funds should be spent on cancers impacting the young, others feel that more should go on cancers with the highest mortality, others that more should be spent on cancers that impact the most number of people, and the statistics are incomplete and contensted. If you then make your campaign "colon cancer matters", you might piss people off.
Yes, I'm familiar with the concept of people jockeying over limited mind space and getting "pissed off" that people address other social issues than their own personal pet projects.

I happen to disagree with that attitude.

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Old 11th January 2017, 06:02 PM   #543
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
You've moved the goalposts. We're discussing "all lives matter" as a retort to "black lives matter" and why such a response either misses the point entirely or attempts to paint the latter as hostile to the former.

The choices are not limited to "It's BLMs fault" and "inexplicable coincidence" so you need to bring some evidence of a causal link or I'm forced to conclude that any of 500 different reasons (or combinations thereof) that could explain the trends you describe have just as much validity.

I'm explaining why that kind of response is not appropriate which in no way suggests you did so.
You are saying it is an inappropriate response. Both statements are true. And saying all lives matter is also not always hostile or otherwise ill intended. The entire argument seems trivial in either direction. If someone responds with all lives matter they may be talking about a cops life on the line vs. a suspect. There have been quite a few instances in the movement where a cops life (freedom, career, etc.) has been on the line just for doing his job.

As to the other point I gave some evidence of the possibility of a link. If you wish to dismiss it in favor of "500" other possibilities, of which you named exactly zero, that is your problem.
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Old 11th January 2017, 06:14 PM   #544
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Maybe it is addressed to people who think black lives matter but are unaware of the impacts caused by those who don't or want to dismiss it as something that only happened in the past or offer up numerous excuses for why that reference everything under the sun except plain-as-day bigotry.
Well, I think having the central slogan you are targeting at people who already believe that black lives matter be "black lives matter" is confusing. If you insistantly say something at people that appears obvious, like "you need to drink to live", but you phrase it as contentious and challenging, a common reaction is going to be to look for additional meaning and nuance in it.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Like this.

"Black Lives Matter" is a statement. That you hear it as an accusation claiming you don't think so is your own problem.
No it's not my problem. They are a campagning organization. If people are put off by the way they communicate, that's BLMs problem. Unless it helps to get your hashtag trending if you can get lots of people disagreeing with you over trivial ****, in which case its neither of our problem.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Yes, I'm familiar with the concept of people jockeying over limited mind space and getting "pissed off" that people address other social issues than their own personal pet projects.

I happen to disagree with that attitude.
No, that's not really what any of the attitudes in my example were discussing. In the example the "colon cancer matters" person is hectoring the other people with an argument that presupposes that their disagreement on resource allocation stems from them thinking that colon cancer doesn't matter. Since that isn't the case, not only has the argument been ineffective, but he's also managed to insult all the people he is seeking to persuade.
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Old 11th January 2017, 06:32 PM   #545
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
As has been discussed endlessly on this issue, the reason that saying "but all lives matter" as a response to "black lives matter" is dismissive is because if someone said "I'm fighting against breast cancer" you wouldn't wag your finger in their face and tell them "but all cancer is bad!" and accuse them of unfairness.

It's attempting to suggest that there's an invisible "only" at the beginning of the statement.
No, it would be like pretending that breast cancer is only a problem that affects blacks. Far more whites are killed by police than blacks.
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Old 12th January 2017, 12:12 AM   #546
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Originally Posted by jeffas69 View Post
Fight? Nope not at all. Its a discussion. No need to get angry or personal. (Not saying you are. Just telling you I am not)
Too late, this will be a fight.

Quote:
Why should they? That should be obvious. If black lives matter then saving the most black lives should be the focus regardless of what I think. Correct?
And, again, why should their focus be on what you wish? And furthermore, why should anyone think that you have the answer to any issue? What makes you think that they aren't working towards an actual solution to the issues you do raise?

Now, let's be clear. I've heard quite enough of the whole "what about black on black crime?" nonsense. You want to solve it, for real? That's going to take real work - not us sitting at keyboards. But for over 10 years now, people point to that issue as a distraction.

Just letting y'all know. We see you.

Quote:
I did say "primary" focus which should tell you I am aware that they have other concerns. The fact that very little of the other activities get national news coverage means that many others besides me may not be interested and that should be very concerning to you. And when you say that "I" am not interested, then you are not stating anything that is factual.
The fact that only some of their work makes news is not interesting to me.

Or rather, that's not why I am not supporting them, so far. News coverage is nothing in that regard. I simply think they're a young group, and I'm currently watching them to be sure they're going in the right way.

Quote:
Lets go another direction. In the last few years homicides in this country are going up after many years of trending down. If you can prove to me that the Black Lives Matter movement has nothing to do with this. I will gladly shut up.
Do as you wish.

Quote:
The Zimmerman/Martin case is long over. He can never be charged again in that crime. Correct? A jury found him innocent due to lack of evidence to convict. There was no video of him kidnapping and torturing someone so the comparison to the four Chicago yutes is way off. That was the point.
Yep Zimmerman is an obvious murderer, who was let off by a jury of his peers due to the skin color of his victim.

That's still worth discussing.
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Old 12th January 2017, 01:50 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Bah, 'waves hand dismissively' that is just basic trolling. We are looking only for serious things not unsubstantiated threats.
Interesting, I once encountered someone wearing a t-shirt with home-made pro-Palestinian slogans on it, one of them called for Israeli Jews to be burned alive. I called him out on that one for obvious reasons.

Once he realized that I was not going to be dissuaded by moral equivalency arguments, he tried the following two arguments before inviting me to 'come outside' and settle the issue 'man-to-man' (I refused the offer, trial-by-combat is not a valid way to settle issues like this.):

1. There is no such thing as antisemitism only legitimate criticism of the Israeli govt/people.

2. Putting the word 'Israeli' in front of the word 'Jew' transforms an antisemitic statement into a legitimate criticism of the Israeli govt/people.
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Old 12th January 2017, 08:19 AM   #548
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That's kind of one of the problems here - cherry picking. Shouldn't ALL hate crimes be monitored, regardless of the political persuasion of the offender?
Do you have evidence that SPLC cherry-picks?
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Old 12th January 2017, 09:13 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Do you have evidence that SPLC cherry-picks?
Here's some:

http://nypost.com/2016/12/05/report-...st-white-kids/
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Old 12th January 2017, 09:42 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That's kind of one of the problems here - cherry picking. Shouldn't ALL hate crimes be monitored, regardless of the political persuasion of the offender?
The SPLC don't really monitor hate crime in any useful fashion. They only started doing it in any capacity at the election. Since they get most of their reports from the media, how many they get are going to be hugely sensitive to media interest. Would anti-Semitic graffiti in a casino toilet have been news worthy ordinarily? Would similar graffiti against Trump supporters be news worthy now? Given the huge change in peoples motivation to report and the presses interest in reporting toilet graffiti all they have is a collection of anecdotes. Eventually the FBI data will come out. They do at least monitor this somewhat systematically.

Incidentally, relating to the cherry picking. I went to a site listing attacks on Trump supporters and attempted to search for those that were named on the SPLC hate watch. None of them came up. Their search function is terrible though. I couldn't find any of the specific hate crimes supposedly carried out by Trump supporters either. Is their data actually capable of showing anything beyond anecdotes regardless of whether they cherry pick?
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Old 12th January 2017, 10:02 AM   #551
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I tell a lie. It looks like they have some information going back further. I haven't seen any data from them showing hate incident numbers going back before the election. There are newspaper stories saying they don't have this data.
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Old 12th January 2017, 11:03 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Thanks.

Way to erode your credibility SPLC.
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Old 12th January 2017, 12:06 PM   #553
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Thanks.

Way to erode your credibility SPLC.
Yeah, why hide data that seems to support your thesis? Only because it doesn't support it the way you want it supported. Follow the data, don't pick which parts to accept and which to reject without good cause.
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Old 12th January 2017, 01:07 PM   #554
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
As a side note I'd like to suggest that the posts about the Chicago incident be placed into a separate thread.
Why?
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Old 12th January 2017, 01:12 PM   #555
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Not enough to care though.
Based on what assumption?

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is interesting that saying that X matters is taken as a statement other things don't.
BLM's methods and tactics appear to indicate that they believe black lives matter more than other lives.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is clear from peoples behavior that it isn't true that they think those shifty blacks really don't deserve more scrutiny than other races.
It's really hard to parse this sentence. The double negatives are throwing me off. It seems to say: "It's clear from people's behavior that they think black people deserve more scrutiny". Is that an accurate restatement?
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Old 12th January 2017, 01:15 PM   #556
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And feminism is fundamentaly a sexist movement.

Criminal scum has always been fundamental to the black movement, look at all the crimes Martin Luther King committed. He was not embraced by the white establishment while he was alive, and should be viewed as the criminal thug he was. Look at his most famous march, that was totally illegally blocking public roads. The cops put it down as they should. We really need a movie that shows the cops in the Selma march as the heroes they should be to real americans.
Did MLK ever verbally abuse and harass people studying in the library, solely because they were white?

Honestly, I think maybe you need to take a serious look at the methods employed by MLK versus those employed by BLM.
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Old 12th January 2017, 01:21 PM   #557
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
ponderingturtle was being sarcastic. He is attempting to represent a position he <falsely and naively> thinks other people hold, but which he himself disagrees with.
ftfy

ponderingturtle appears to be doing some magnificent strawmanning.
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Old 12th January 2017, 01:24 PM   #558
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Those two statements aren't remotely equivalent.

If I said "colon cancer matters" necessarily I am implying that the issue is people who think colon cancer doesn't matter, which I wouldn't be doing if I said "I am campaigning for better treatment of colon cancer". If the people you direct your campaign towards already agreed that "colon cancer matters", it would be a ridiculous and redundant thing to say. With "colon cancer matters" you are attributing beliefs to your opponents, with "I am campaigning for better treatment of colon cancer" you aren't.
That quite well said, and I think it gets to the heart of the issue, at least from my perspective. Saying "Black Lives Matter" presupposes that the people you're talking to believe that black lives don't matter, or at a minimum matter less than other kinds of lives. It turns everyone into a presumed enemy to be fought, regardless of whether they agree with the underlying premise that there is a dramatic disparity in the treatment of black people by the judicial and law enforcement system in the US. It turns the movement into a crusade, as opposed to activism.
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Old 12th January 2017, 01:29 PM   #559
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Just letting y'all know. We see you.
At what point did you decide to define your enemies based on the color of their skin?
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Old 12th January 2017, 02:18 PM   #560
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That quite well said, and I think it gets to the heart of the issue, at least from my perspective. Saying "Black Lives Matter" presupposes that the people you're talking to believe that black lives don't matter, or at a minimum matter less than other kinds of lives. It turns everyone into a presumed enemy to be fought, regardless of whether they agree with the underlying premise that there is a dramatic disparity in the treatment of black people by the judicial and law enforcement system in the US. It turns the movement into a crusade, as opposed to activism.
"Black lives matter" is a declarative statement.

"You don't believe black lives matter" is an accusation.

Appending the extra 3 words at the beginning and concluding that is what they 'really meant' is precisely the kind of presumptive declaration you are supposedly so upset by.
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