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Tags police issues , police misconduct charges

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Old 13th June 2019, 01:12 PM   #1041
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They look a bit dark skinned to me, but I'm sure someone will be along soon to explain why that's irrelevant.

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Old 13th June 2019, 01:27 PM   #1042
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
They look a bit dark skinned to me, but I'm sure someone will be along soon to explain why that's irrelevant.
Oh absolutely.
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Old 13th June 2019, 02:29 PM   #1043
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Phoenix police are investigating after a video emerged of an incident where police are detaining a family. In the video, one of the officers is seen using foul language and viciously sweeping a handcuffed man's leg while the man pleads that he is cooperating. Meanwhile, another officer is seen pointing a gun at the man's pregnant wife and toddler children as he orders them out of the car, later trying to pull one of the children out of the mother's arms so he can handcuff her.

Here is a direct link to the full video. The police were allegedly responding to a report that one of the children had grabbed and taken a doll while the family was leaving a dollar store. Despite the fact that both of the adults were detained and handcuffed in this incident, neither was arrested, nor have they been charged with anything.
I haven't watched the full video, but so far I've counted 6 (SIX!!) police officers participating in this nonsense. Are we sure they weren't reported for committing multiple murders?

Seriously, and I say this with absolutely no caveats, I ******* hate the police. We need to come up with a plan to hire European training officers who will over the course of the next 10-20 years (yeah, it'll take a while) train replacements for every police officer currently employed in the United States.
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Old 13th June 2019, 02:43 PM   #1044
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I find it significant how many of these things all take place in Maricopa county (where Phoenix lies). Sheriff Arpaio's old stomping grounds.
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Old 13th June 2019, 09:47 PM   #1045
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I haven't watched the full video, but so far I've counted 6 (SIX!!) police officers participating in this nonsense. Are we sure they weren't reported for committing multiple murders?

Seriously, and I say this with absolutely no caveats, I ******* hate the police. We need to come up with a plan to hire European training officers who will over the course of the next 10-20 years (yeah, it'll take a while) train replacements for every police officer currently employed in the United States.
Would those be childless European officers?
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Old 14th June 2019, 02:28 AM   #1046
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From the video, Cop to woman in car with child

“Get you’re ******* hands up”
“Get out of the ******* car”
“I’m gonna put a cap right in your ******* head”
“You’re gonna ******* get shot”
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Old 14th June 2019, 04:47 PM   #1047
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Daily Mail reports that the couple is now seeking $10 million from the Phoenix police.
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Old 14th June 2019, 05:43 PM   #1048
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I hope they get at least a couple, after going through that.
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Old 14th June 2019, 07:58 PM   #1049
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A link to a second angle, from the ground. Two things that stand out the most:

The man is handcuffed and thus not entirely on-balance, but already has his legs somewhat separated when one lunatic cop sweeps his leg and starts screaming at him about how he needs to obey.

The second nutjob who come running up the side to point his gun at the woman with a baby in her arms, like he's running for cover while confronting a murder suspect.

The Dollar store folks didn't even notice the 4 year old girl take the doll, and I doubt the parents did either - kids that young don't really grasp ethics as it applies to ownership, they see a doll in a bin or something and just take it. Some third party saw it, and called in the cops.

Yeah, it's another one of those stories.

Instead of just saying "Guys, I think your little girl might have pocketed a doll y'all didn't pay for." or just letting it go because it's the freaking Dollar Store, nope, gotta call 911. All those prior incidents like BBQ Becky, Pool Patrol Patty, and the like, that some of y'all probably just cute and harmless? Well, they can go this way, or worse, as well. The only real question is what the 911 caller said to dispatch. It's possible that the caller lied and said they robbed the place or something. But even then, once you see a couple and their children, common sense should kick in.

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
They look a bit dark skinned to me, but I'm sure someone will be along soon to explain why that's irrelevant.
The cops look to be white, but - as I've been saying here for years - black police are if anything even more brutal towards black people than white cops are.

Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
I find it significant how many of these things all take place in Maricopa county (where Phoenix lies). Sheriff Arpaio's old stomping grounds.
Yep. The fish, in this case, rotted from the head.
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Old 14th June 2019, 08:27 PM   #1050
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The man is handcuffed and thus not entirely on-balance, but already has his legs somewhat separated when one lunatic cop sweeps his leg and starts screaming at him about how he needs to obey.
If you watch the first video, right before the leg sweeping incident, the cop leans in as if to say something inaudible, and at that point you can see the man visibly spread his legs as if he was just ordered to do that. My impression is that the cop decided he hadn't spread his legs far enough, so swept his leg and then screamed at him about compliance.

Just every single moment of this incident is 100% out-of-line, from the response itself to the actions of the officers. 6 units and 10 or 11 officers for this.

In the link you give, it's alleged that the baby the officer tried to yank out of its mother's arms so he could handcuff her, suffered a dislocation.

Not even surprised to hear that it wasn't the store that called in the "theft", but some random prick.
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Old 16th June 2019, 07:36 AM   #1051
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I cannot bring myself to watch any of these videos any more, too distressing.
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Old 16th June 2019, 07:43 AM   #1052
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What would the punishment be for an ordinary citizen making another person eat dog feces?

Prison, for mere toothpaste.
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Old 16th June 2019, 09:23 AM   #1053
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
That particular little **** will likely never serve a day and should have received a hard kick up the arse.
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Old 16th June 2019, 10:34 AM   #1054
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
There was so many different things the police could've done differently in this situation that i don't know what to say other than anything short of being convicted of professional misconduct (assuming that that's even a criminal offence) would be a travesty.
I'd have said short of murder.
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Old 16th June 2019, 10:52 AM   #1055
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I cannot watch those body cam videos any more, they are so sickening. The cop who shot the lad in the hotel corridor who was clearly trying to obey his commands was the final straw.
I've not been able to watch them for ages for that reason.

Robocop was supposed to be satire
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Old 16th June 2019, 12:30 PM   #1056
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I cannot bring myself to watch any of these videos any more, too distressing.
I'm barely coming back to them - and still refuse to watch actual shootings. This one's bad enough as is.

I've heard it said that it's people's responsibility to watch them. I disagree. Taking care of yourself comes first.
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Old 17th June 2019, 03:11 AM   #1057
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Why cops still don't belong at pride

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/14/us/te...btq/index.html

"Authorities in Tennessee are reviewing all pending cases involving a Knox County Sheriff's Office detective after he gave a sermon at his church that called for the government to execute members of the LGBTQ community."
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Old 17th June 2019, 04:15 AM   #1058
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The police were allegedly responding to a report that one of the children had grabbed and taken a doll while the family was leaving a dollar store.
The monsters!




The cops, I mean. Seriously, at least one of them seems to be on a power trip. The school bully has transitioned into an adult-world bully.
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Old 17th June 2019, 04:21 AM   #1059
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
6 units and 10 or 11 officers for this.
I guess it was a slow day and they needed to let off some steam at someone.

I wouldn't ask for money. I'd ask for the officer to be fired. Although if the child's arm was indeed dislocated, I'd take the money out of the cop's bank account.
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Old 17th June 2019, 05:23 AM   #1060
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Cop kills mentally disabled man, injures both parents at Costco

Watching this story develop might give you whiplash. Original reporting was that a off-duty cop holding his child was attacked, unprovoked, in a California Costco. That cop shot and killed his attacker and went to the hospital for minor injuries.

Further details coming out make for a more suspicious story. The man killed has severe mental disabilities and is largely non-verbal. It is unclear how such a disabled person could start an "argument" resulting in lawful lethal force by the cop. The cop launched a barrage of bullets that killed the disabled man and shot both of the man's parents who are his caretakers. Both parents were critically wounded. The mother is still in a coma and the father has yet to make any statements about the incident.

Story here: https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...616-story.html

Hopefully there is store surveillance cameras that captured the shooting, because I find the cop's narrative to not pass the smell test.
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Old 17th June 2019, 06:32 AM   #1061
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Further details coming out make for a more suspicious story. The man killed has severe mental disabilities and is largely non-verbal.
//Note. I speaking generally, not necessarily of this one specific incident or the details specific to it which, obviously, should be judged on its own by the facts as they becomes available. This is a jumping off point, not a direct rebuttal or counter-argument.//

I do think with police shootings we tend to get hung up on things which essentially don't matter, and the demographics of the victims in regard to their... potential threat level outside of any actions they did or did not take is one of them.

Disabled people can still be a threat that could warrant a deadly response. Tiny, little frail and physically weak people can still be a threat that could warrant a deadly response. Women can still be a threat that could warrant a deadly response. Older children who are still technically minors can still be a threat that could warrant a deadly response.

So I do tend, not hard and fast rule just tend, to bristle at reports that frame police incidents as "Cops do such and such to disabled/woman/child/100 lb person/etc" because that overshadows the actual core of the discussion, was the person a viable threat or could reasonably be seen as one.
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Old 17th June 2019, 08:18 AM   #1062
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
//Note. I speaking generally, not necessarily of this one specific incident or the details specific to it which, obviously, should be judged on its own by the facts as they becomes available. This is a jumping off point, not a direct rebuttal or counter-argument.//

I do think with police shootings we tend to get hung up on things which essentially don't matter, and the demographics of the victims in regard to their... potential threat level outside of any actions they did or did not take is one of them.

Disabled people can still be a threat that could warrant a deadly response. Tiny, little frail and physically weak people can still be a threat that could warrant a deadly response. Women can still be a threat that could warrant a deadly response. Older children who are still technically minors can still be a threat that could warrant a deadly response.

So I do tend, not hard and fast rule just tend, to bristle at reports that frame police incidents as "Cops do such and such to disabled/woman/child/100 lb person/etc" because that overshadows the actual core of the discussion, was the person a viable threat or could reasonably be seen as one.
I agree with your general point. People do tend to hang on inconsequential details. It's like when people say "police shoot man for (petty crime here)". Any stop can escalate, at no fault to the police, to deadly violence.

What makes this situation, specifically, more suspicious to me is that the police shot three unarmed people. I find it much less likely that three people minding their own business decided to engage in unlawful violence against a stranger that justified using deadly force.

I will also note that a mentally disabled adult seems interesting to me because many police often have a very aggressive approach to compliance and conflict deescalation. Like in the case of the severely autistic man who was shot from a safe distance with a rifle for refusing to put down a toy truck, the "comply or die" line of reasoning does not work well with less than rational individuals, such as the mentally deficient.
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Old 17th June 2019, 08:22 AM   #1063
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I will also note that a mentally disabled adult seems interesting to me because many police often have a very aggressive approach to compliance and conflict deescalation. Like in the case of the Beverly autistic man who was shot from a safe distance with a rifle for refusing to put down a toy truck, the "comply or die" line of reasoning does not work well with less than rational individuals, such as the mentally deficient.
Hey he wasn't shot, his black therapist was and then arrested as per protocol when the police shoot an innocent bystander. And of course nothing actually happened to the officers because as they say blue careers matter.
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Old 17th June 2019, 08:34 AM   #1064
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I will also note that a mentally disabled adult seems interesting to me because many police often have a very aggressive approach to compliance and conflict deescalation.
I agree with that 100%.

In nearly all of these cases that have any level of procedural ambiguity in them (the ones that aren't just outright daylight executions basically) what astonishes me the most is the total lack of any concept in play of deescalating the situation, as if the police are going into the situations trying to end them in a dead suspect via a "well technically they meet this vague, undefined criteria" instead of seeing it as their duty, or hell even seeing in their own best interest, to at least try to deescalate the situation.
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Old 17th June 2019, 08:37 AM   #1065
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I agree with your general point. People do tend to hang on inconsequential details. It's like when people say "police shoot man for (petty crime here)". Any stop can escalate, at no fault to the police, to deadly violence.
The problem is, there's often footage of the police doing all of the escalation, sometimes shooting before the victim even has any idea what's happening. Levar Jones and Philando Castile, both shot for reaching for their ID after the cop asked for ID. Freddie Grey, taken for a rough ride after running away from police, arrested for nothing. John Crawford III, instantly shot for holding an air gun in the Wal-Mart that he pulled the same air gun off of a shelf in. Sandra Bland, roughed up and arrested for asking if she really needed to put out the cigarrette she was smoking. Eric Garner, choked out for refusing to be arrested for standing outside (he was not selling loose cigarrettes that day, and if he were this would still not be an arrestable offense). Rekia Boyd, shot as a bystander after a cop mistook someone else's cell phone for a gun. Darrien Hunt, killed for cosplaying.

And yes, statistically, we know that race and mental illness play roles. There's a recent story on twitter where a wheelchair-bound woman started having a PTSD episode due to being raped a decade ago, and someone called the cops. End result? Five men shouting threats at her in an attempt to calm her down "Calm down, or we'll make you calm down!" "Calm down, or we'll arrest you and take you to jail!". Guess how well this worked?

Quote:
I will also note that a mentally disabled adult seems interesting to me because many police often have a very aggressive approach to compliance and conflict deescalation. Like in the case of the severely autistic man who was shot from a safe distance with a rifle for refusing to put down a toy truck, the "comply or die" line of reasoning does not work well with less than rational individuals, such as the mentally deficient.
The problem is, they have a very aggressive approach to to complaince and area control - de-escelation isn't even atttempted.
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Old 17th June 2019, 08:46 AM   #1066
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I think I've mentioned it before but that's why I don't like it when the language or metaphor used in the discussion is that cops are "acting like soldiers."

Please. Soldiers would kill (no pun) for this kind of loose, seat of their pants ROE with zero accountability.

When I was in Afghanistan I spent... 30% of my waking time in the same building with at least 1 person who would, at the first chance, try and kill me. No ifs, ands, or butts about it. These people were the enemy and had earned that title. We were in open, declared conflict with them.

And when they acted up, and boy did they like to act up, we still had to go through a very rigorous deescalation procedure, follow strict rules of engagement, and react to threats proportionality. We couldn't just put two in Mr. Taliban's head everytime he did anything that was "technically" threatening. And that was the right way to handle the situation.

I'm no bleeding heart here. When you actually step up and declare your intent to be a problem, you should get put down hard, and have zero tolerance for being a touchguy before you get your pee-pee smacked and being a shriveling poor widdle victim afterwards (or having others do so on your behalf). But expecting a civilian police force to at least treat the civilian populace they are protecting with the same level of responsibility and restraint as soldiers have to give to the actual literal declared enemy hardly seems unreasonable to me.
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Old 17th June 2019, 10:28 AM   #1067
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The problem is, they have a very aggressive approach to to complaince and area control - de-escelation isn't even atttempted.
Yeah, I think American police are trained that they must never ever cede authority or control in a situation lest bad guys just start walking all over them or ignoring them; so "de-escalation" isn't even in the playbook, except of course in the form of capitulation by whomever they're yelling at.
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Old 17th June 2019, 10:40 AM   #1068
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Even beyond that "Taking control of the situation" which... fine certainly has it's place isn't the same thing as "Refusing to deescalate the situation."

There's a situation. Cops are called. Once the cops arrive there's some truth to the idea that it's a good thing for them "take control," to let all the parties; aggressors, victims, bystanders, etc, to know that they are running the show. There's certainly a place for that.

But you can do that and deescalate the situation.
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Old 17th June 2019, 10:44 AM   #1069
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Yeah, I think American police are trained that they must never ever cede authority or control in a situation lest bad guys just start walking all over them or ignoring them; so "de-escalation" isn't even in the playbook, except of course in the form of capitulation by whomever they're yelling at.
I think they are generally trained in that, but police culture doesn't encourage it and they face little to no consequence for a bit of unnecessary violence. Add in how often they celebrate violence and encourage it and even if taught it is easy to refuse to practice it and face no consequence.
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Old 17th June 2019, 11:05 AM   #1070
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I think they are generally trained in that, but police culture doesn't encourage it and they face little to no consequence for a bit of unnecessary violence. Add in how often they celebrate violence and encourage it and even if taught it is easy to refuse to practice it and face no consequence.

Actually, no, police in most jurisdictions are not trained in de-escalation. There was a thread about this not too long ago, but the gist of it is that most PDs use "compliance" training -- that is, they're taught to escalate escalate use of force to enforce compliance as quickly as possible, rather than to de-escalate a situation. That's why so many ramp up to deadly force so quickly, even when the situation clearly does not call for it.
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Old 17th June 2019, 05:41 PM   #1071
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
//Note. I speaking generally, not necessarily of this one specific incident or the details specific to it which, obviously, should be judged on its own by the facts as they becomes available. This is a jumping off point, not a direct rebuttal or counter-argument.//

I do think with police shootings we tend to get hung up on things which essentially don't matter, and the demographics of the victims in regard to their... potential threat level outside of any actions they did or did not take is one of them.

Disabled people can still be a threat that could warrant a deadly response. Tiny, little frail and physically weak people can still be a threat that could warrant a deadly response. Women can still be a threat that could warrant a deadly response. Older children who are still technically minors can still be a threat that could warrant a deadly response.

<snip>

Anyone (or anything) can "be a threat that could warrant a deadly response".

And that's always the cops' defense.
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Old 17th June 2019, 05:43 PM   #1072
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The problem is, there's often footage of the police doing all of the escalation, sometimes shooting before the victim even has any idea what's happening. Levar Jones and Philando Castile, both shot for reaching for their ID after the cop asked for ID. Freddie Grey, taken for a rough ride after running away from police, arrested for nothing. John Crawford III, instantly shot for holding an air gun in the Wal-Mart that he pulled the same air gun off of a shelf in. Sandra Bland, roughed up and arrested for asking if she really needed to put out the cigarrette she was smoking. Eric Garner, choked out for refusing to be arrested for standing outside (he was not selling loose cigarrettes that day, and if he were this would still not be an arrestable offense). Rekia Boyd, shot as a bystander after a cop mistook someone else's cell phone for a gun. Darrien Hunt, killed for cosplaying.

<snip>

Not to mention fifty five rounds fired into a car to take out someone for the crime of being asleep.
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Old 17th June 2019, 05:49 PM   #1073
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The cops, I mean. Seriously, at least one of them seems to be on a power trip. The school bully has transitioned into an adult-world bully.
I suspect that's the main reason for becoming a cop, for a significant percentage.
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Old 18th June 2019, 07:08 AM   #1074
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Not to mention fifty five rounds fired into a car to take out someone for the crime of being asleep.
To be fair, he was not shot for being asleep, he was shot for failure to wake up correctly.
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Old 19th June 2019, 12:20 AM   #1075
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
To be fair, he was not shot for being asleep, he was shot for failure to wake up correctly.

True.

I suppose that makes it much more reasonable.

They probably would have only needed a couple dozen rounds if he had just stayed asleep.
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Old 19th June 2019, 12:37 AM   #1076
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
To be fair, he was not shot for being asleep, he was shot for failure to wake up correctly.
And being black, of course. White guys just get beat up.

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 19th June 2019 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 19th June 2019, 09:08 AM   #1077
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Even beyond that "Taking control of the situation" which... fine certainly has it's place isn't the same thing as "Refusing to deescalate the situation."

There's a situation. Cops are called. Once the cops arrive there's some truth to the idea that it's a good thing for them "take control," to let all the parties; aggressors, victims, bystanders, etc, to know that they are running the show. There's certainly a place for that.

But you can do that and deescalate the situation.
Absolutely. Shouting, making threats and generally acting like a lunatic is, as a general rule, rarely the best way to take control of the situation. Being calmly authoritative typically works much better. You've got a police uniform and a gun. Act like you know what the hell you are doing, for God's sake.
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Old 19th June 2019, 11:15 AM   #1078
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As an aside, I have met some police officers who had the skills and knew exactly how to calm down any situation, they should be the ones doing training
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Old 19th June 2019, 12:37 PM   #1079
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Indeed, they should be doing the training. Sadly, far too many are trained by ghouls like the accurately named Dave Grossman:

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I AGREE
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Old 19th June 2019, 01:37 PM   #1080
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Indeed, they should be doing the training. Sadly, far too many are trained by ghouls like the accurately named Dave Grossman:
While it's entirely possible that Mr. Grossman is a disgusting, despicable individual, I'm just not seeing enough of the context to make sense of the guy's thesis (theses).
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