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Tags police issues , police misconduct charges

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Old 31st October 2019, 09:33 AM   #1401
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
If you scroll down there's a claim that NBC covered it as "reports of a man with a gun". I'm working and can't listen just now. FWIW.
https://twitter.com/MuzzImran/status...753858049?s=20
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Old 31st October 2019, 09:35 AM   #1402
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The guy was sitting there with his hands in the air. To me this was all too horribly reminiscent of the death of Jean Charles de Menezes, even though obviously there were a number of differences.
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Old 31st October 2019, 10:23 AM   #1403
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
First, the EU is not a country. The EU is 28 (soonish to be 27..?) countries with each their own culture, language and politics all going back hundreds of years. Though there is formal cooperation between police forces of the different countries there is no common police training.

You will find that there is vast differences between how police works in individual EU countries. There is no common EU laws dictating what police can or cannot do in the different member countries. That is entirely up to the individual countries. Norwegian police is unarmed. Spanish police can use water cannons. Danish police cannot. Etc. Etc.

I'm sure you can find examples of bad policing in the EU. No doubt. But speaking as a dane, it is front page news in Denmark if a police officer so much as draws his weapon, justified or not. So while there might be stories to tell I have a feeling that they won't be as horrifying as the stuff coming out of the US.
Yes, and similarly with the UK. Every time a police officer even draws a taser, that is counted as a weapons use, and logged.


UK police are far from perfect and indeed police officers do often get away with too much, but it's not remotely comparable.
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Old 31st October 2019, 10:30 AM   #1404
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Why would they have to conduct any siege at all? Is this a police department without body armor? Cops go through doors that might have people with guns behind them all the time and they usually do so without blowing the walls off the building beforehand.
Typical Body Armor used by heavily armored police/military units doesn't make you invincible, and this time he didn't just have a gun but he shot at them at least once and potentially multiple times after that (per the Washington Post article). Pussy footing around seems like perfectly reasonable reaction, especially if they are unaware of who this person is, what his mindset is and what kind of weapon(s) he has. Worst case is he kills every single cop trying to walk to the front door or look through a window, even if they are wearing ballistic vests.

In principle, law enforcement responding to these kind of situations where someone is hiding inside of a house or apartment, i think should be equipped with sufficient armor (including ballistic shields) that anything short of a high caliber machine gun or rifle would be a low risk to the police. In the absence of that, mouse-holingWP and methodical room-clearing is standard.

If you don't know where exactly they are, where they are aiming (or even if they are there or alive for that matter) it's a whole lot safer to smash down, or blow a hole in, one of the walls while multiple people provide crossfire from multiple angles (meaning in practice, that someone is always able to shoot at someone hiding in a corner or behind something the other guys can't see). Just having everyone pile through the same door isn't the best way to clear a house. This wasn't a hostage situation so it's not like they had to act very quickly either.
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Old 31st October 2019, 10:39 AM   #1405
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Typical Body Armor used by heavily armored police/military units doesn't make you invincible, and this time he didn't just have a gun but he shot at them at least once and potentially multiple times after that (per the Washington Post article). Pussy footing around seems like perfectly reasonable reaction, especially if they are unaware of who this person is, what his mindset is and what kind of weapon(s) he has. Worst case is he kills every single cop trying to walk to the front door or look through a window, even if they are wearing ballistic vests.

In principle, law enforcement responding to these kind of situations where someone is hiding inside of a house or apartment, i think should be equipped with sufficient armor (including ballistic shields) that anything short of a high caliber machine gun or rifle would be a low risk to the police. In the absence of that, mouse-holingWP and methodical room-clearing is standard.

If you don't know where exactly they are, where they are aiming (or even if they are there or alive for that matter) it's a whole lot safer to smash down, or blow a hole in, one of the walls while multiple people provide crossfire from multiple angles (meaning in practice, that someone is always able to shoot at someone hiding in a corner or behind something the other guys can't see). Just having everyone pile through the same door isn't the best way to clear a house. This wasn't a hostage situation so it's not like they had to act very quickly either.


Plus, you know, it could have been dangerous. You can't expect anyone who wants to be a policeman to place themselves in any sort of danger. That's lunacy.
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Old 31st October 2019, 10:59 AM   #1406
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
There simply has to be more to this story, although I wouldn't be surprised!
It's RT. It might be true, but i would not give them the benefit of the doubt on anything.
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Old 31st October 2019, 11:02 AM   #1407
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Plus, you know, it could have been dangerous. You can't expect anyone who wants to be a policeman to place themselves in any sort of danger. That's lunacy.
And it wouldn't justify their big toy budget, I mean how often do they get a really fun siege like this to break out all the really fun toys?
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Old 31st October 2019, 12:55 PM   #1408
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The selection process encourages those who want to go 'hut, hut hut' and look cool in combat gear.

Then they're just looking for the chance.

Given there's apparently a maximum IQ for entry into some forces, it's only a matter of time before they get all tunnel visioney and think they're back playing COD.

Subway stations are an ace location for it too, all those stairs an nooks and crannies, you can really get into the role of special forces operative under siege.

I'm sure they all make sure to wear their stretchiest pants to cope with the excitement.
The excessive number of officers and use of force suggests they like to think they are tough guys, but really, they are cowards in uniform.
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Old 31st October 2019, 01:20 PM   #1409
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
First, the EU is not a country. The EU is 28 (soonish to be 27..?) countries with each their own culture, language and politics all going back hundreds of years. Though there is formal cooperation between police forces of the different countries there is no common police training.
True. Although in some respects (criminal codes, for example) the USA is like 50 little countries all doing their own thing.

Quote:
You will find that there is vast differences between how police works in individual EU countries. There is no common EU laws dictating what police can or cannot do in the different member countries. That is entirely up to the individual countries. Norwegian police is unarmed. Spanish police can use water cannons. Danish police cannot. Etc. Etc.
Yes. And the USA has a very large number of independent police departments. (Canada does, too. Even here in Winnipeg in the last couple of years the Winnipeg police have fired on and killed citizens in the course of their work.)

Quote:
I'm sure you can find examples of bad policing in the EU. No doubt. But speaking as a dane, it is front page news in Denmark if a police officer so much as draws his weapon, justified or not. So while there might be stories to tell I have a feeling that they won't be as horrifying as the stuff coming out of the US.
That's why I was floating the trial balloon of starting a thread on policing in the EU. You made the point that a Danish officer drawing a weapon gets into the news. Is that also true for Greece or Spain? Are the police in France more or less likely to beat a suspect than the police in Romania?
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Old 31st October 2019, 01:58 PM   #1410
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
If you scroll down there's a claim that NBC covered it as "reports of a man with a gun". I'm working and can't listen just now. FWIW.
https://twitter.com/MuzzImran/status...753858049?s=20
Quote:
Witnesses told police officers they'd seen Napier with a gun near Atlantic Avenue and Flatbush Avenue, according to the NYPD.

When officers approached Napier, he fled into the Pacific Street subway station, police said.

Police say Napier jumped over a turnstile inside the station and ran onto a southbound 4 train. Officers "transmitted" his description and the NYPD stopped the train at the Franklin Avenue station, according to police ó which is where the incident caught on video took place.

An investigation found Napier was "wanted for questioning in regard to a past larceny," according to police.

He was arrested for jumping the subway turnstile and charged with theft of service, the NYPD confirmed. His attorney information wasn't immediately available Sunday.
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...563926651.html

So it wasn't because he jumped a turnstile. That's just something he did in the process of running away when they initially approached him. It was because he was reported as having a gun.

Was the number of officers overkill? I don't know. Information the police had was that he had a gun and jumped on the train when approached. I'm not sure how dispatch works, but I'm guessing when that call goes out all available officers in the area head in that direction.

Now, taking him to the ground...not sure about that.
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Old 1st November 2019, 04:15 AM   #1411
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
That's why I was floating the trial balloon of starting a thread on policing in the EU. You made the point that a Danish officer drawing a weapon gets into the news. Is that also true for Greece or Spain? Are the police in France more or less likely to beat a suspect than the police in Romania?
That's my point. I don't think it necessarily makes any sense to compare police in Denmark with police in Greece or Spain due to the differences not only in what means of force can be used but also differences in laws and justice systems.

You might argue the same for the US given it's a federation of individual states. But it makes some sense seen from the viewpoint of common federal laws and courts, and a common constitution and the bill of rights. The EU has no such things in common. You would just be comparing on the basis of population and I don't think bad policing is necessarily a function of population size.
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Old 1st November 2019, 10:09 AM   #1412
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I probably should have pointed out that this is a different case of a policeman shooting an unarmed man than all the other cases of a policeman shooting an unarmed man that we've been discussing so far. In case that wasn't clear.
Thank you. It can be difficult for those of use from civilised countries to keep up.
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Old 5th November 2019, 09:13 PM   #1413
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Kentucky correctional officers plead guilty to punching cuffed detainee, covering up assault: DOJ

Quote:
Two Kentucky correctional officers pleaded guilty Thursday to federal charges in connection with the assault of a handcuffed detainee and subsequent cover-up, the Department of Justice said.

Former Louisville Metro Department of Corrections (LMDC) Officer David M. Schwartz, 48, pleaded guilty to depriving the detainee of his right to be free from excessive force, resulting in bodily injury, and two counts of filing false reports, according to a DOJ press release.

Fellow ex-LMDC Officer Donna K. Gentry, 55, pleaded guilty to one count of obstructing justice for filing a false report and persuading another officer, Devan Edwards, to file a false report, the DOJ said.

Edwards previously pleaded guilty to assaulting the detainee and failing to intervene to prevent Schwartz from the assault, according to the DOJ.

According to court documents, on April 15, 2018, Schwartz punched a pretrial detainee in the face while the detainee’s hands were handcuffed behind his back. The detainee, identified as T.W., was reportedly pleading with Schwartz to stop and posed no threat, the DOJ said.

Schwartz then wrote a misleading report in which he omitted his use of force against T.W. and falsely charged T.W. with third-degree felony assault, the DOJ said.

The same day, Gentry learned that Schwartz and Edwards had assaulted T.W. and that Edwards had accidentally turned on his body camera and recorded part of the beating. She then wrote a report in which she included false statements and omitted the assault by Schwartz and Edwards, according to court documents.

Edwards reviewed her report and provided the same false information in his own report of the encounter but changed the wording so it was not obvious he copied her report, the DOJ said.
If one of the officers hadn't accidentally turned on their body camera, they probably would have gotten away with it too.
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Old 6th November 2019, 02:43 AM   #1414
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Someone gave these guys badges.

Then the bloke in the car wouldn't hand over his papers.

None of the policemen at this incident should have jobs tomorrow.

https://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/2...or_police.html
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Old 6th November 2019, 11:12 AM   #1415
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I saw a cop pull someone over a few days ago. Didn't see any guns. After awhile both parties drove away.
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Old 6th November 2019, 01:17 PM   #1416
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I saw a cop pull someone over a few days ago. Didn't see any guns. After awhile both parties drove away.
I'm not sure what your point is. There are probably thousands of police departments where none of the cops are bad. The problem is in the significant numbers where there are some and none of their supposedly "good" colleagues deal with them.

Abuse of public office is serious because of what it enables as well as the personal crimes.
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Old 6th November 2019, 01:18 PM   #1417
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I saw a cop pull someone over a few days ago. Didn't see any guns. After awhile both parties drove away.
Well, that makes all the bad behavior ok then, right?
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Old 6th November 2019, 01:20 PM   #1418
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I'm not sure what your point is. There are probably thousands of police departments where none of the cops are bad. The problem is in the significant numbers where there are some and none of their supposedly "good" colleagues deal with them.
Hey you aren't going to turn on your buddy for a little mistake like shooting an innocent person right?
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Old 7th November 2019, 12:47 AM   #1419
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I saw a cop pull someone over a few days ago. Didn't see any guns. After awhile both parties drove away.
And not all men are rapists. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything about rape.
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Old 7th November 2019, 01:07 AM   #1420
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hey you aren't going to turn on your buddy for a little mistake like shooting an innocent person right?
I get it, you support gun wielding cops loosing off rounds wherever and at whoever they like. What an unbelievable attitude you have, supporting the cover up of excessive force and illegal shootings by cops.
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Old 7th November 2019, 03:57 AM   #1421
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I get it, you support gun wielding cops loosing off rounds wherever and at whoever they like. What an unbelievable attitude you have, supporting the cover up of excessive force and illegal shootings by cops.
I was adding to that is considered acceptable behavior in the majority of "good" cops.
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Old 7th November 2019, 05:29 AM   #1422
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I was adding to that is considered acceptable behavior in the majority of "good" cops.
Yeah, it sucks to have some ******* dickhead deliberately misrepresent your post doesnít it!

There is nothing worse than somebody attempting to paint you the exact opposite colour as you are obviously currently wearing simply to gain internet points.

I know how that feels.

Iíll try harder, where you are concerned, in future.
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Old 7th November 2019, 08:05 AM   #1423
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Someone gave these guys badges.

Then the bloke in the car wouldn't hand over his papers.

None of the policemen at this incident should have jobs tomorrow.

https://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/2...or_police.html
Yeah, I'm a bit skeptical about this one. The situation definitely sounds like it could have been handled better, HOWEVER we don't see anything about the beginning of the encounter and cannot see what was initially explained to the driver. Even in states where the police do not have the power to demand ID from any random person, they DO have the right to demand ID from anyone behind the wheel of a car. Furthermore, they have the right to order the driver or passengers out of the car. Refusing to comply is an arrestable offense. Once the driver refuses to comply with the above, the USUAL next step is that the vehicle is secured and said driver gets physically dragged out of their vehicle. The clip shows the driver clearly refusing to comply after being notified that they were under arrest, while also seemingly alert and capable of understanding the officers' demands so...

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Old 7th November 2019, 08:21 AM   #1424
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Yeah, I'm a bit skeptical about this one. The situation definitely sounds like it could have been handled better, HOWEVER we don't see anything about the beginning of the encounter and cannot see what was initially explained to the driver. Even in states where the police do not have the power to demand ID from any random person, they DO have the right to demand ID from anyone behind the wheel of a car. Furthermore, they have the right to order the driver or passengers out of the car. Refusing to comply is an arrestable offense. Once the driver refuses to comply with the above, the USUAL next step is that the vehicle is secured and said driver gets physically dragged out of their vehicle. The clip shows the driver clearly refusing to comply after being notified that they were under arrest, while also seemingly alert and capable of understanding the officers' demands so...


Yeah, I've read a little about it and it appears that the driver is obliged to provide the ID in (wherever this was happening, I forget), which changes the dynamic a little.

I honestly think that it's a power trip on the part of the LEO and a simple 'you jumped a red light' or 'your lights aren't working' would have moved things along. Similarly, however, 'yes officer, here's my ID' would have done the same.

I still don't think it was right. I think it's a lot less wrong than it looks at face value, however.
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Old 7th November 2019, 08:22 AM   #1425
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Well, that makes all the bad behavior ok then, right?
I think his point was that the bad behaviour we hear about in the media might not be typical.
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Old 7th November 2019, 08:38 AM   #1426
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I think his point was that the bad behaviour we hear about in the media might not be typical.
Yeah, but how common does it need to be to a problem?

I'm glad that "not all traffic stops" turn into police beatings. But that doesn't mean there isn't a problem that needs to be addressed.
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Old 7th November 2019, 08:47 AM   #1427
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Yeah, but how common does it need to be to a problem?
I think a single instance is a problem, but at that specific point it's not worth making it about the behaviour of Us police officers.

So here's the question raised: despite the (ample) anecdotal examples of bad police behaviour in the US, what do the statistics say about how widespread it is?
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Old 7th November 2019, 09:10 AM   #1428
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Yeah, I've read a little about it and it appears that the driver is obliged to provide the ID in (wherever this was happening, I forget), which changes the dynamic a little.

I honestly think that it's a power trip on the part of the LEO and a simple 'you jumped a red light' or 'your lights aren't working' would have moved things along. Similarly, however, 'yes officer, here's my ID' would have done the same.

I still don't think it was right. I think it's a lot less wrong than it looks at face value, however.
I did not see much that concerns me even "at face value".

What is it that people expect a struggle to look like, that they are shocked to see one actually take place?

And why do so many seem unfamiliar with the definition of the root-word for "enforcement"?
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Last edited by Distracted1; 7th November 2019 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 7th November 2019, 09:21 AM   #1429
3point14
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I did not see much that concerns me even "at face value".
Because the officer could have just answered the question. He didn't need to play 'I have bigger bollocks than you' with the driver. He could have just said 'your light doesn't work' and moved on.


Quote:
What is it that people expect a struggle to look like, that they are shocked to see one actually take place?
The officer seemed to be looking for conflict. There's nothing in the code, that I'm aware of, that says the LEO can't answer questions. It became an ego game between the two of them. I think police officers should be above such games. "Yes, sir, if you want to mess me about it's for this reason, now show me the ID' would have led to less hassle overall and more respect for the policeman and his force. Now he's made himself a bucketload of paperwork and, whatever the facts, he just doesn't look good.

He looks like he's policing with his penis. He could have avoided that really easily.



Quote:
And why do so many seem unfamiliar with the definition of the root-word for "enforcement"?
They're not. They just understand that derivation isn't meaning.

I'd rather wonder why some police officers don't understand the concept of policing by consent.
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Old 7th November 2019, 09:37 AM   #1430
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Because the officer could have just answered the question. He didn't need to play 'I have bigger bollocks than you' with the driver. He could have just said 'your light doesn't work' and moved on.
But really is that what the Punisher would do? Let some thugs mouth off to him and answer his damn questions?
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Old 7th November 2019, 09:53 AM   #1431
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I honestly think that it's a power trip on the part of the LEO and a simple 'you jumped a red light' or 'your lights aren't working' would have moved things along. Similarly, however, 'yes officer, here's my ID' would have done the same.
Traffic stops usually involve ONE police officer. I count like four in that video? That suggests to me that the officer had cause and occasion to call for backup before any of that exchange takes place...and enough time passed for them to arrive. It's probable that the driver was being far more obtuse than merely asking "What am I being charged with?" a single time.
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Old 7th November 2019, 09:57 AM   #1432
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Traffic stops usually involve ONE police officer. I count like four in that video? That suggests to me that the officer had cause and occasion to call for backup before any of that exchange takes place...and enough time passed for them to arrive. It's probable that the driver was being far more obtuse than merely asking "What am I being charged with?" a single time.

A good point. There's not enough on the film to tell.


Thinking about it, if the answer to why have you stopped me is 'you have outstanding warrants for firearms violations and multiple assault charges' then maybe you want the fellow out of the car before you tell him.


Life is far too complicated.
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Old 7th November 2019, 11:09 AM   #1433
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Traffic stops usually involve ONE police officer. I count like four in that video? That suggests to me that the officer had cause and occasion to call for backup before any of that exchange takes place...and enough time passed for them to arrive. It's probable that the driver was being far more obtuse than merely asking "What am I being charged with?" a single time.
And? He is reported to have blown a stop sign. Municipalities can ticket people for this kind of violation based on a ******* picture taken by a computer. Why should we accept a reality where this piddling violation can be escalated to violence?
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Old 7th November 2019, 03:00 PM   #1434
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I think a single instance is a problem, but at that specific point it's not worth making it about the behaviour of Us police officers.

So here's the question raised: despite the (ample) anecdotal examples of bad police behaviour in the US, what do the statistics say about how widespread it is?

Hard to say, since such statistics aren't all that available.

Many police departments don't keep such statistics, and the ones that do are often reluctant to share them. Mandates for reporting enacted by Congress are simply ignored.

The most reliable numbers have come from news organizations like The Guardian or the Washington Post, who have tried to assemble data by painstakingly reviewing local news reports.

Here's one article on the subject of data collection by official sources by the Florida Times-Union that gives a fairly good description of the state of statistics gathering.

It doesn't paint a pretty picture.
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Old 7th November 2019, 03:10 PM   #1435
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
And? He is reported to have blown a stop sign. Municipalities can ticket people for this kind of violation based on a ******* picture taken by a computer. Why should we accept a reality where this piddling violation can be escalated to violence?
That's a great question I would love to see a rational answer to. I doubt we'll get one.
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Old 7th November 2019, 03:35 PM   #1436
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
And? He is reported to have blown a stop sign. Municipalities can ticket people for this kind of violation based on a ******* picture taken by a computer. Why should we accept a reality where this piddling violation can be escalated to violence?
Refusing to provide license and vehicle registration upon a request during a traffic stop is a crime in the United States. During the video clip we are directly shown the perpetrator both refusing to comply with a lawful order (to exit the vehicle) and resisting arrest. These are all generally more serious than driving through a stop sign. Tell me - is it your expectation that police officers should ignore crimes committed directly in front of them if the perpetrator doesn't feel like being arrested? Or that committing a traffic offense should shield a person from the legal consequences of any further crimes committed that day by the same individual?
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Old 7th November 2019, 03:45 PM   #1437
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And another successful dodge of a perfectly reasonable question.
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Old 7th November 2019, 03:50 PM   #1438
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Refusing to provide license and vehicle registration upon a request during a traffic stop is a crime in the United States. During the video clip we are directly shown the perpetrator both refusing to comply with a lawful order (to exit the vehicle) and resisting arrest. These are all generally more serious than driving through a stop sign. Tell me - is it your expectation that police officers should ignore crimes committed directly in front of them if the perpetrator doesn't feel like being arrested? Or that committing a traffic offense should shield a person from the legal consequences of any further crimes committed that day by the same individual?
It's my expectation that police officers act like human beings. For example, if a driver doesn't want to show their paperwork until the officer answers the very reasonable and common question of "Why have you stopped me?," then the officer should answer the question unless the answer is reasonably believed to create more danger (e.g., the officer has stopped someone because s/he believes the driver is a murder suspect).

In other words, if the situation escalated because the officer chose not to answer the question, then the officer is entirely at fault for everything that followed. While the officer is not required to answer the question and according to the law has the right to get the paperwork without condition, if the choice is between answering the question (which may result in compliance) and moving to a violent arrest process then the correct thing to do is to answer the question.

As for ignoring "crimes committed directly in front of them," police officers do that all the time. That's officious rationalization for cops acting like scumbags.

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Old 8th November 2019, 02:21 AM   #1439
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Another "resource officer" that shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near children..:

https://wsvn.com/news/local/broward-...een-on-ground/

Full surveillance video:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


At 0:39 the student can be seen lightly tapping (not kicking) the officer on the back of his leg. Some time passes before the officer grabs the student in a choke hold and throws her to the floor before planting a knee in her back and cuffing her. After pulling her up by the cuffs the officer pushes her into a wall.

Reportedly Cross Creek School is a school for children with emotional or behavioral disabilities.

Again the concept of "resource officer" must be brought into question. Who thought this was a good idea?
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Old 8th November 2019, 02:29 AM   #1440
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Refusing to provide license and vehicle registration upon a request during a traffic stop is a crime in the United States. During the video clip we are directly shown the perpetrator both refusing to comply with a lawful order (to exit the vehicle) and resisting arrest. These are all generally more serious than driving through a stop sign. Tell me - is it your expectation that police officers should ignore crimes committed directly in front of them if the perpetrator doesn't feel like being arrested? Or that committing a traffic offense should shield a person from the legal consequences of any further crimes committed that day by the same individual?
Ah yes. "Resisting arrest". The "serious" crime a perfectly innocent person can be guilty of just by asking a police officer a question.

That and "I was fearing for my life" are the two biggest police excuses for abusing force.
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