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Tags donald trump , mental illness issues , psychiatry incidents , psychiatry issues , Trump controversies

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Old 9th August 2018, 01:51 AM   #641
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Do you jump to the conclusion that these people have autism as Emily's Cat suggested or do you just recognize some symptoms that are common in autism? For example, if someone is extremely sensitive to texture, do you think they have autism or just know that can be symptomatic of it?

On the other hand, knowing autism on a personal level, if you met someone who displayed several autism characteristics, the chances are you'd recognize them more quickly and accurately than someone with no experience with autism.
Most of the time I just note that they "seem kind of spectrumy" (have a trait or traits I'm noticing.)

Only twice have I been convinced it was definitely autism, both times with a child. One was a friend's daughter who ended up getting formally diagnosed. The other is a neighborhood kid, but I don't know the mom, so I have no idea if he has a/"the" diagnosis or not.
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Old 9th August 2018, 05:20 AM   #642
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I don't know enough about this to propose an alternative or second diagnosis, but I'm sure NPD alone doesn't cover it with Trump. For one thing, the only extended video we've had of him walking lately showed him teetering off-balance a few times and, at least once, stopping in his tracks to stare around in confusion & disorientation instead of at least continuing to walk in a straight line in confusion & disorientation. (Maybe he was trying to figure out whether he was in the UK, Britain, or England; so many names...) And that bit in parentheses paraphrases an example of the second thing NPD alone wouldn't explain: his precipitous decline in mental capacity over the last few years. His speeches several years ago, whatever other objections one might have to them, at least had organization & coherence, and addressed subjects that adults would talk about, in a way that adults would address them. Now they literally (literally literally) sound like someone reading a 6-year-old's schoolwork, complete with those giant jagged letters that float around the page instead of staying in the extra-wide-spaced lines on the paper, and stick figures in the margins.
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Old 9th August 2018, 05:34 AM   #643
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We should stop speculating about Trump's mental health.
The last thing I want is for him to stay out of jail because of an insanity plea.
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Old 9th August 2018, 09:09 AM   #644
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
With some disorders (autism in particular) the cause is irrelevant to the diagnosis of "having" the disorder, which is surprising. One can be autistic undeniably as a result of something like congenital rubella syndrome, and it's still autism. I'm not 100% sure, but it seems quite likely that NPD is the same, where the causation is considered diagnostically irrelevant when it comes to whether or not you "have" the disorder.
The cause might be irrelevant once the field of possible diagnoses has been narrowed down to NPD; it's not irrelevant if there's an identifiable cause for the observed symptoms that fits a diagnosis that is not NPD.

As an example: I'm epileptic, which can occur with no identifiable cause. There are, however, a large number of causes of seizures. Epilepsy gets diagnosed when no cause of seizure can be found - it's what's left over after testing the other things. So when I started having seizures, I got tested for cancer, benign brain tumors, diabetes, and a host of other potential conditions that can CAUSE seizures. When no other causes were found, we were left with epilepsy.

So in this case, if there were a different cause for the observable symptoms of exaggeration, dishonesty, difficulty talking, difficulty maintaining attention, focus on self, etc., then the diagnosis wouldn't be NPD. It's only NPD when those other causes have been tested for and ruled out.
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Old 9th August 2018, 09:24 AM   #645
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Do you jump to the conclusion that these people have autism as Emily's Cat suggested or do you just recognize some symptoms that are common in autism? For example, if someone is extremely sensitive to texture, do you think they have autism or just know that can be symptomatic of it?

On the other hand, knowing autism on a personal level, if you met someone who displayed several autism characteristics, the chances are you'd recognize them more quickly and accurately than someone with no experience with autism.
I'm not sure the distinction you're making is useful, or at least, I don't follow it's utility here. The degree of difference between:
  • You're sensitive to texture, you have autism
  • You're sensitive to texture, that's a sign of autism, you should get evaluated
  • You're sensitive to texture, which is often associated with autism, and you should consider being evaluated for that
... Is really just a matter of etiquette and courtesy as far as I can tell.

The point I'm aiming at is that being sensitive to texture can also be a symptom of a sensory processing disorder, or even of anosmia or Kallman's Syndrome... or of being high as a kite for that matter. A person who is familiar with autism is likely to recognize that texture sensitivity as being associated with autism, and suggest that as a cause. But since that person is not familiar with sensory processing disorders, or with anosmia, or anything else (for the sake of this illustration), they are unlikely to consider those other diagnoses as possibilities.

++++++++

This is actually a logic error. Essentially, humans are very prone to saying "All X are Y" and then concluding that "If Y, then X". It's not that cut-and-dried, of course, but I do think that's part of what's going on in this thread. On the one hand we have an idea presented by a presumed authority (even though those authorities are in a significant minority in their field) and an easily accessible "checklist" of symptoms for NPD. We can all look at that checklist and say "People with NPD have inflated senses of self-worth, are self-absorbed, and exaggerate their accomplishments". So in effect, we can observe that All X are Y. The problem, as I see it, is that none of us (so far as I can tell) know what else Y is associated with. As a result, many in this thread then assume that because a (perceived) inflated sense of self-worth, self-absorption, and exaggeration are present, that indicates NPD - many conclude that If Y then X.

To really over-do the analogy, we're looking at a checklist of apples and seeing that apples are fruit that are roundish, grow on a tree, and are red. Then someone presents us with a red plum... and we say "This is a fruit that is roundish, grows on trees, and is red... it must be an apple!"
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Old 9th August 2018, 09:27 AM   #646
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
I don't know enough about this to propose an alternative or second diagnosis, but I'm sure NPD alone doesn't cover it with Trump. For one thing, the only extended video we've had of him walking lately showed him teetering off-balance a few times and, at least once, stopping in his tracks to stare around in confusion & disorientation instead of at least continuing to walk in a straight line in confusion & disorientation. (Maybe he was trying to figure out whether he was in the UK, Britain, or England; so many names...) And that bit in parentheses paraphrases an example of the second thing NPD alone wouldn't explain: his precipitous decline in mental capacity over the last few years. His speeches several years ago, whatever other objections one might have to them, at least had organization & coherence, and addressed subjects that adults would talk about, in a way that adults would address them. Now they literally (literally literally) sound like someone reading a 6-year-old's schoolwork, complete with those giant jagged letters that float around the page instead of staying in the extra-wide-spaced lines on the paper, and stick figures in the margins.
Agreed.
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Old 9th August 2018, 01:29 PM   #647
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
We should stop speculating about Trump's mental health.
The last thing I want is for him to stay out of jail because of an insanity plea.
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Old 9th August 2018, 02:06 PM   #648
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Do you jump to the conclusion that these people have autism as Emily's Cat suggested or do you just recognize some symptoms that are common in autism? For example, if someone is extremely sensitive to texture, do you think they have autism or just know that can be symptomatic of it?

On the other hand, knowing autism on a personal level, if you met someone who displayed several autism characteristics, the chances are you'd recognize them more quickly and accurately than someone with no experience with autism.
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm not sure the distinction you're making is useful, or at least, I don't follow it's utility here. The degree of difference between:
  • You're sensitive to texture, you have autism
  • You're sensitive to texture, that's a sign of autism, you should get evaluated
  • You're sensitive to texture, which is often associated with autism, and you should consider being evaluated for that
... Is really just a matter of etiquette and courtesy as far as I can tell.

The point I'm aiming at is that being sensitive to texture can also be a symptom of a sensory processing disorder, or even of anosmia or Kallman's Syndrome... or of being high as a kite for that matter. A person who is familiar with autism is likely to recognize that texture sensitivity as being associated with autism, and suggest that as a cause. But since that person is not familiar with sensory processing disorders, or with anosmia, or anything else (for the sake of this illustration), they are unlikely to consider those other diagnoses as possibilities.
I never suggested that anyone would tell to someone else to get evaluated so I don't see why you included that in your list.

I don't think anyone here has suggested, and I know I haven't, that symptoms can't be similar to many different conditions. What I am saying is that those familiar with certain conditions are more likely to be able to recognize those symptoms in others than those who are not familiar with them. Kelly B is more likely to be able to discern the possibility of someone being in the autism spectrum than someone who is not familiar with those symptoms.

On as aside, a viewer of a home renovation TV show noticed a swelling on the host's neck, contacted him, and suggested he have it checked out because it was a symptom of thyroid cancer. Sure enough, he did have thyroid cancer. The viewer was not a doctor but was familiar with that symptom.
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Old 17th August 2018, 04:23 AM   #649
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From a different thread.


Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat View Post
The Dolt argued with members of Vietnam Vets Organisations about whether Agent Orange or Napalm was used in the movie apocalypse now ( he thought it was agent orange and “refused to admit he was mistaken”) amongst other things.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-...h-vietnam-vets

I'm going to suggest that NPD would explain this behaviour.
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Old 17th August 2018, 05:30 AM   #650
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Old 17th August 2018, 06:07 AM   #651
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
From a different thread.





I'm going to suggest that NPD would explain this behaviour.
That would be unethical, but only if you are professionally certified to make the diagnosis, and by unethical you mean unethical as decided by a committee of your professional organization based on their opinions.
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Old 17th August 2018, 06:45 AM   #652
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
That woukd be unethical, but only if you are professionally certified to make the diagnosis, and by unethical you mean unethical as decided by a committee of your professional organization based on their opinions.
Unironically this.
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Old 17th August 2018, 11:08 AM   #653
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I agree with Omarosa: Trump's mental decline is due to overconsumption of Diet Coke.
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Old 17th August 2018, 02:01 PM   #654
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
"I love the smell of Agent Orange in the morning!"
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Old 18th August 2018, 05:53 AM   #655
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More evidence of true mental disability:
Quote:
During this White House meeting, certain details of which have not been previously reported, the president managed to again annoy and confuse U.S. war veterans, this time by getting into a bizarre, protracted argument with Vietnam War vets present about the movie Apocalypse Now and the herbicide Agent Orange.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-...h-vietnam-vets
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Old 18th August 2018, 12:00 PM   #656
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Anyone who doesn't already understand that Trump just isn't stable will never see it. They just can't admit it to themselves because they don't want to. Self-delusion can be very powerful.
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Old 18th August 2018, 12:03 PM   #657
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Anyone who doesn't already understand that Trump just isn't stable will never see it. They just can't admit it to themselves because they don't want to. Self-delusion can be very powerful.
Yes!

So maybe *you* can explain what the Yale group gives you, that you didn't already have on your own.
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Old 18th August 2018, 12:11 PM   #658
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yes!

So maybe *you* can explain what the Yale group gives you, that you didn't already have on your own.

Professional knowledge, training and experience, just as anybody can tell you murder is a crime, but a lawyer can tell you about degrees of homicide in your particular jurisdiction, elements of proof, admissible evidence, potential punishments etc. We value what experts say because, within their fields, they know more than the rest of us.
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Old 18th August 2018, 12:15 PM   #659
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yes!

So maybe *you* can explain what the Yale group gives you, that you didn't already have on your own.
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Professional knowledge, training and experience, just as anybody can tell you murder is a crime, but a lawyer can tell you about degrees of homicide in your particular jurisdiction, elements of proof, admissible evidence, potential punishments etc. We value what experts say because, within their fields, they know more than the rest of us.
That.

When my daughter was little, I could see from her appearance and behavior that she was ill. But I could not diagnose what that illness was without a doctor. Which is why her strep throat got so bad. I thought it was just a normal sore throat.
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Old 18th August 2018, 12:28 PM   #660
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Professional knowledge, training and experience, just as anybody can tell you murder is a crime, but a lawyer can tell you about degrees of homicide in your particular jurisdiction, elements of proof, admissible evidence, potential punishments etc. We value what experts say because, within their fields, they know more than the rest of us.
I'm not asking for a general argument by analogy. I'm asking specifically about the Yale group in its own terms.

I infer from your appeal to the legal profession that you don't actually have an answer to my question about certain psychiatrists.
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Old 18th August 2018, 12:29 PM   #661
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That.

When my daughter was little, I could see from her appearance and behavior that she was ill. But I could not diagnose what that illness was without a doctor. Which is why her strep throat got so bad. I thought it was just a normal sore throat.
Cool story.

But in this case you're saying that you *can* diagnose on your own.

Yet again, the argument by analogy fails. As it always does.
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Old 18th August 2018, 01:19 PM   #662
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yes!

So maybe *you* can explain what the Yale group gives you, that you didn't already have on your own.
And, again, the Yale group probably wasn't seeking to influence people who were already convinced that Trump was unfit. They were hoping to influence those who weren't sure, and maybe even some of those who'd thought that he was fit for the job.
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Old 18th August 2018, 01:24 PM   #663
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Cool story.

But in this case you're saying that you *can* diagnose on your own.

Yet again, the argument by analogy fails. As it always does.
Do you even know what "diagnose" means? She knew something was wrong with her daughter. It took a doctor -- that's somebody with specialized training and experience -- to identify and treat the illness.
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Old 18th August 2018, 01:27 PM   #664
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Cool story.

But in this case you're saying that you *can* diagnose on your own.

Yet again, the argument by analogy fails. As it always does.
Nah. If I had suspected strep throat and looked up symptoms of strep throat, I'd have seen that a rash covering the body and intense itching were also symptomatic. I'd have gotten her to the doctor sooner instead of relying on the phone nurse who said it was a fever rash. When she didn't get better, I spoke to the doctor on the phone. He suspected strep from the symptoms. He was right about diagnosing strep as a culture soon proved. He didn't need to see her in person to recognize strep symptoms. He only confirmed it with a culture.

Frankly, I think you've taken a stand and are simply being pedantic now.
Your claim that "Yet again, the argument by analogy fails. As it always does, "is an opinion, not a fact.

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Old 18th August 2018, 01:47 PM   #665
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Nah. If I had suspected strep throat and looked up symptoms of strep throat, I'd have seen that a rash covering the body and intense itching were also symptomatic. I'd have gotten her to the doctor sooner instead of relying on the phone nurse who said it was a fever rash. When she didn't get better, I spoke to the doctor on the phone. He suspected strep from the symptoms. He was right about diagnosing strep as a culture soon proved. He didn't need to see her in person to recognize strep symptoms. He only confirmed it with a culture.

Frankly, I think you've taken a stand and are simply being pedantic now.
Your claim that "Yet again, the argument by analogy fails. As it always does, "is an opinion, not a fact.
There are a couple of posters here who specialize in this. Understanding a posters point is insignificant to displaying their rather juvenile intellect. Responding to them is wasted effort.
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Old 18th August 2018, 02:03 PM   #666
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not asking for a general argument by analogy. I'm asking specifically about the Yale group in its own terms.

I infer from your appeal to the legal profession that you don't actually have an answer to my question about certain psychiatrists.

What is your actual question? The book under discussion here is a collection of essays by 27 psychiatrists and psychologists. Each makes his own argument, based on their own knowldege and experience, that Trump is displaying and has displayed symptoms of mental illness. Do you think they're wrong, or they don't know what they're talking about, or they should keep their mouths shut, or what? Or you just don't trust experts?
https://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Cas.../dp/1250179459
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...g-donald-trump
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Old 19th August 2018, 02:12 PM   #667
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I notice a couple of the 'you can't say Trump has NPD' arguments are slowly morphing into a more pure form of 'what does knowing that add' and 'it's unethical to speak of his mental illness'.

IOW it's getting pretty ridiculous to deny the man is disturbed.
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Old 19th August 2018, 02:39 PM   #668
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I notice a couple of the 'you can't say Trump has NPD' arguments are slowly morphing into a more pure form of 'what does knowing that add' and 'it's unethical to speak of his mental illness'.

IOW it's getting pretty ridiculous to deny the man is disturbed.
YA THINK?
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Old 19th August 2018, 02:43 PM   #669
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I really wish some qualified people would speak up about Trump's current mental state, which seems to be taking a certain vector. Where's it headed? Surely, professionals have seen this pattern before.
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Old 19th August 2018, 02:53 PM   #670
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
I really wish some qualified people would speak up about Trump's current mental state, which seems to be taking a certain vector. Where's it headed? Surely, professionals have seen this pattern before.
Hopefully, impeachment.
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Old 19th August 2018, 03:27 PM   #671
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
I really wish some qualified people would speak up about Trump's current mental state, which seems to be taking a certain vector. Where's it headed? Surely, professionals have seen this pattern before.
This is the thing.

I know enough to say that he seems to be a textbook example of NPD. What I am less sure about is what that means, and what the likelihood of a David Koresh murder suicidal meltdown with nuclear weapons.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 19th August 2018, 04:08 PM   #672
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
This is the thing.

I know enough to say that he seems to be a textbook example of NPD. What I am less sure about is what that means, and what the likelihood of a David Koresh murder suicidal meltdown with nuclear weapons.
With both Koresh and Jones, their followings and fantasy were confined to a closed group. It's when their respective bubbles were about to pop that they killed off everything.

Trump has managed to rationalize everything when his bubbles repeatedly pop. You can expect that pattern to continue. He will increase accusations against the deep state and the media.

There will be a group, hopefully a small one, probably one similar to the Bundy Ranch standoff, that might resort to violence waiting for the revolution they believe they would be starting. It will fizzle but the division in the country might take decades to fade back into the way it was before. There could be more Tim McVeighs out there. That is the unpredictable part of the equation.
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Old 19th August 2018, 04:13 PM   #673
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Donald Trump is the crazy one, but he's not fantasizing about domestic terrorism, cult leaders or mass suicides. I hate to give him any credit at all, but if he can do this to purportedly rational people, maybe we really are rat-******.
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Old 19th August 2018, 07:25 PM   #674
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
And, again, the Yale group probably wasn't seeking to influence people who were already convinced that Trump was unfit. They were hoping to influence those who weren't sure, and maybe even some of those who'd thought that he was fit for the job.
And *that* is unethical.
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Old 19th August 2018, 07:30 PM   #675
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Do you even know what "diagnose" means? She knew something was wrong with her daughter. It took a doctor -- that's somebody with specialized training and experience -- to identify and treat the illness.
Her daughter is not analogous to Donald Trump.

You didn't need a doctor, to figure out Donald Trump, remember? The Yale group gave it a fancy medical name, but they didn't actually tell you anything you hadn't already figured out on your own, remember?

By the election, we all had what we needed to make an informed decision about Donald Trump, remember?
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Old 19th August 2018, 09:25 PM   #676
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And *that* is unethical.
How do you figure that?
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Old 20th August 2018, 12:50 PM   #677
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Old 20th August 2018, 12:56 PM   #678
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
How do you figure that?
They're using their authority as doctors to influence politics.
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Old 20th August 2018, 01:18 PM   #679
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
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Old 20th August 2018, 01:23 PM   #680
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
They're using their authority as doctors to influence politics.
Isn't that what they should do if he's deeply mentally unwell? If not them, who?
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