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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , 2020 elections , democratic party , presidential candidates

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Old 15th November 2019, 03:17 PM   #2361
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It gets better.
https://boston.cbslocal.com/2019/06/...massachusetts/
"The ex-brother-in-law of former Democratic Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick has been sentenced to up to eight years in prison for raping his estranged wife.
...
In 2014, Patrick fired the head of the state’s Sex Offender Registry Board in part because she questioned why Sigh wasn’t required to register for a 1993 spousal rape conviction."
Up to eight years in prison for a second rape conviction? Only in Massachusetts.
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Old 15th November 2019, 03:43 PM   #2362
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Up to eight years in prison for a second rape conviction? Only in Massachusetts.
You haven't been around then. I assure you that sentence is not as unusual as you think it is.
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Old 15th November 2019, 04:21 PM   #2363
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
It's not the moderate liberals that you have to worry about. It's the legitimate swing voters that matter; the folks who voted for Obama and for Trump.
I guess I use those labels, i.e. (moderates, centrists, and swings) interchangeably.

Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
If you lose them you don't lose them to some mythical centrist 3rd party, you lose them to the GOP.
Agreed.

Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
. . . how far left do you have to go to get all the Jill Stein voters? And can you say honestly that you don't think going that far left will alienate 0.5% of the voters in the middle?
In the context of our candidates for the nomination, I think you have to go as far left as Warren/Sanders. That's exactly the question, though. Would Warren or Sanders be too far left for the swing voters? If so, that argues for running a Biden and dope-slapping enough progressives to make sure they come out in support of him.

If the Democrats run a progressive that'll alienate some (all?) swing voters, but would that be compensated by progressive turnout? Think not just about the 1% Stein voters but the n% non-voters.
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Old 15th November 2019, 04:26 PM   #2364
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
I guess I use those labels, i.e. (moderates, centrists, and swings) interchangeably.

Agreed.


In the context of our candidates for the nomination, I think you have to go as far left as Warren/Sanders. That's exactly the question, though. Would Warren or Sanders be too far left for the swing voters? If so, that argues for running a Biden and dope-slapping enough progressives to make sure they come out in support of him.

If the Democrats run a progressive that'll alienate some (all?) swing voters, but would that be compensated by progressive turnout? Think not just about the 1% Stein voters but the n% non-voters.
A more progressive candidate also risks higher conservative turnout.
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Old 15th November 2019, 04:29 PM   #2365
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Warren is now fleshing out a transition to get M4A, but some are accusing her of backtracking.

Quote:
Health care has been a difficult topic for Elizabeth Warren. After some wishy-washy answers about it early in her presidential campaign, she committed herself hard to the cause of “Medicare for All,” going so far as to produce a detailed plan answering the nagging question of how she would pay for it without increasing taxes on the middle class. But the effort to simultaneously win over single-payer diehards who’d otherwise support Bernie Sanders while quieting criticism from Democratic moderates worried about cost has not paid off particularly well. Center-left types (myself included) have criticized her budget math for being unrealistic. Some on the left, who’ve long doubted her commitment to the cause, suggested her financing plan was both insufficiently progressive and politically poisonous. And as her campaign was consumed by these conversations, her poll numbers leveled off.

Now, Warren is trying a different tack: admitting that she isn’t really going to pass single payer after all. Not any time early in her presidency, at least. And maybe not ever.

That isn’t quite how Warren is framing things, of course. But I think it’s the fairest reading of the first-term plan for “transitioning” to Medicare for All that her campaign released on Friday. The candidate promises that within her first 100 days as president, she’ll use the executive branch’s regulatory powers to start bringing down health costs, push for fast-track legislation to build on the Affordable Care Act, make traditional Medicare available to everyone over the age of 50, and create a very generous public insurance option with modest premiums that Americans will be able to purchase on Obamacare’s exchanges, which she is branding as the “Medicare for All option.”

Warren argues that these reforms will eventually pave the way to pass a second bill that fully moves the United States to a single-payer system like Sanders has envisioned, by putting all Americans on a single government plan and banning private insurers from selling competing coverage. “No later than my third year in office, I will fight to pass legislation that would complete the transition to full Medicare for All,” her plan states. “By this point, the American people will have experienced the full benefits of a true Medicare for All option, and they can see for themselves how that experience stacks up against high-priced care that requires them to fight tooth-and-nail against their insurance company.”
Linky.

Of course, if this is really meant to be a backtrack, it might be too late. Buttigieg is still campaigning completely against it (in Republican framing):

Quote:
“Senator Warren's new health care ‘plan’ is a transparently political attempt to paper over a very serious policy problem, which is that she wants to force 150 million people off their private insurance — whether they like it or not," Lis Smith, the Buttigieg campaign’s communications director, said in a statement.

"Despite adopting Pete's language of 'choice,' her plan is still a 'my way or the highway' approach that would eradicate choice for millions of Americans,” she added.

“No amount of Washington political games can save her plan from that fatal flaw: she still doesn’t trust the America people to make the right health care decisions for themselves,” the statement also said.
Linky.
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Old 15th November 2019, 05:19 PM   #2366
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A more progressive candidate also risks higher conservative turnout.
That doesn't mean the conservatives will vote for Trump.
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Old 15th November 2019, 06:19 PM   #2367
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That doesn't mean the conservatives will vote for Trump.
If they vote, they will. You think they're going to vote for a woman, or a Jew, or a gay guy, or, perish the thought, crooked Joe Biden?
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Old 15th November 2019, 08:26 PM   #2368
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
....
Yeah... that was my big red flag with Buttigieg (and yes Biden, too and so much worse), regardless. Buttigieg sounds like an even less experienced Obama on that front, and the Republicans took advantage of Obama's naivety to act very badly.
This was my concern with Obama, I voted for Clinton in whatever year that was.

Buttigieg sounds great. I wish he would have gone to the Senate for a while.


Booker was unimpressive today. He was asked what he would do about the leaded water all over the country. He mentioned briefly one piece of legislation he worked on without saying if it was or wasn't successful then went on for five minutes telling us what we already know, how bad things are. That was the first time I wasn't impressed by his talking.
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Old 15th November 2019, 09:42 PM   #2369
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
If they vote, they will. You think they're going to vote for a woman, or a Jew, or a gay guy, or, perish the thought, crooked Joe Biden?
Ever hear of the Libertarian party?
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Old 15th November 2019, 10:28 PM   #2370
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
If true,
It's grossly misleading about why the swing voters were swing voters in the first place and the target audiences in question, so I would suggest not taking it as anything close to a definitive assessment.

Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
I guess I use those labels, i.e. (moderates, centrists, and swings) interchangeably.
Which is problematic, especially when the swings are very frequently not swings because of the overall right-left positioning of a candidate. There is, what, 1.5% of the voting population that actually would meet all those labels, per 538?

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That doesn't mean the conservatives will vote for Trump.
I think that you may, in fact, overestimate the number of actual principled conservatives, though, in thinking that the number is much greater than negligible.
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Old 15th November 2019, 11:16 PM   #2371
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
I think that you may, in fact, overestimate the number of actual principled conservatives, though, in thinking that the number is much greater than negligible.
No I don't think I have.

Trump is not really a conservative.
A conservative cares about deficits.
A conservative cares about foreign relations and American influence abroad and don't support dictators.
A conservative cares about free trade.

Trump is as far away from the New American Century as Jill Stein.
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Old 15th November 2019, 11:45 PM   #2372
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Here's a short 5 minute clip of Buttigieg talking about Trump. I absolutely love how clear and articulate he is.
Actually, at 5:04 it's a long 5 minute clip.

As an aside, think of the precedent Pete sets that a small town Mayor can get traction in a presidential primary nationwide. Will we have ~50 mayors announcing their candidacy for president in 2028? <-- mostly tongue-in-cheek

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Old 16th November 2019, 01:35 AM   #2373
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Warren is now fleshing out a transition to get M4A, but some are accusing her of backtracking.
It's not actually a backtrack. I'm a RADICAL UHC proponent paranoid about basically "fake" UHC plans and bandaid solutions passed off as "UHC".

It's...not problematic for Liz's base if people want to call it a backtrack, tho. IYKWIM. Our target voter demographic and even us ("the base", the single payer proponents with liz) are not crazy ideological purists.

Buttigieg can take all the Biden votes he wants, tho, if that's working for him.
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Old 16th November 2019, 01:45 AM   #2374
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A more progressive candidate also risks higher conservative turnout.
...of the 1% class. They're not that numerous. Trump's BASE is on fire for him 24/7. Nothing can hurt him, but nothing can milk that too much more, either.
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Old 16th November 2019, 08:00 AM   #2375
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
If you assume that Joe Biden won't do enough on that score, but that Stein, Warren or Bernie will, then yes, you are probably right.
I'm saying in the sense of being unable to go further left than Clinton/Biden type candidates (and similar implications in terms of Congressional balance, etc).
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Old 16th November 2019, 08:28 AM   #2376
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The ultra-conservative, Democratic hating, not woke enough, Barack Obama is again warning the Democratic Candidates that a rousing game of "Lookit me being more woke then you" is a bad strategy, reminded them in so many words they are running for President of the United States not the President of their Twitter Feeds, and stating that most of the country wants to improve the system, not tear it down and rebuild it.

NYTimes: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/15/u...2020-dems.html

FoxNews: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/oba...warren-sanders
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Old 16th November 2019, 09:49 AM   #2377
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The ultra-conservative, Democratic hating, not woke enough, Barack Obama is again warning the Democratic Candidates that a rousing game of "Lookit me being more woke then you" is a bad strategy, reminded them in so many words they are running for President of the United States not the President of their Twitter Feeds, and stating that most of the country wants to improve the system, not tear it down and rebuild it.

NYTimes: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/15/u...2020-dems.html

FoxNews: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/oba...warren-sanders
It says:

Quote:
The two-term Democratic president made the remarks at a gathering of the Democracy Alliance, a group of wealthy Democratic donors.
He was talking to them, not Liz and Sanders.
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Old 16th November 2019, 10:50 AM   #2378
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It says:







He was talking to them, not Liz and Sanders.
His comments referenced those running for President. Was the room full of wealthy donors running for President?
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Old 16th November 2019, 11:12 AM   #2379
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
He was talking to them, not Liz and Sanders.
Suuuuuuure he was.
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Old 16th November 2019, 01:41 PM   #2380
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The attack of the billionaires

I think the recent attacks of the billionaires and the super wealthy against Elizabeth Warren plays right in to her hands. I bet she loves every attack. The billionaires come off as snowflakes whining about being picked on. That it is "unfair" to single them out. Also, it's extra amusing watching them point to another billionaire as their savior.

Did you hear the one about the billionaire telling another billionaire that they shouldn't be taxed?
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Old 16th November 2019, 02:20 PM   #2381
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Suuuuuuure he was.
You think he was using the 1%ers donor class event as a microphone to get to Liz and Sanders? lol

You know, he could just call them if he wanted to tell them something.

They were seriously not the intended audience, unless he's turned into a troll, and one who's really bad at it.
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Old 16th November 2019, 02:25 PM   #2382
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I don't have access to the NYT, but the fox link sounds like Fox snipped context, actually. It says:

Quote:
Former President Barack Obama on Friday warned 2020 Democratic presidential hopefuls to pay attention to what voters actually think -- warning that most of them don’t want to “tear down the system.”

“The average American doesn't think we have to completely tear down the system and remake it. And I think it's important for us not to lose sight of that,” Obama said.
It sounds like he was specifically and only talking about M4A. It's a centrist talking point to accuse M4A of something like "tearing down the system and remaking it."

Does anyone have access to the NYT?
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Old 16th November 2019, 02:31 PM   #2383
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think the recent attacks of the billionaires and the super wealthy against Elizabeth Warren plays right in to her hands. I bet she loves every attack. The billionaires come off as snowflakes whining about being picked on. That it is "unfair" to single them out. Also, it's extra amusing watching them point to another billionaire as their savior.

Did you hear the one about the billionaire telling another billionaire that they shouldn't be taxed?
Liz has started slightly taunting the crybaby billionaires "to their faces" on twitter when they mention her negatively. It's deliciously hilarious. She's also running the wealth tax ads on CNBC.

She's turned pro-tax plans into billionaire-trolling ads, y'all.

Be still, my heart!
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Old 16th November 2019, 02:39 PM   #2384
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Liz has started slightly taunting the crybaby billionaires "to their faces" on twitter when they mention her negatively. It's deliciously hilarious. She's also running the wealth tax ads on CNBC.

She's turned pro-tax plans into billionaire-trolling ads, y'all.

Be still, my heart!
I've seen ads with mugs on them with...

Billionaire
Tears
Warren

As the ad.

Personally, I'm of mixed feelings to that. I'm not a fan of endorsing suffering, after all, much as the billionaires wouldn't actually experience any realistic hardship from the loss of that small fraction of money.
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Old 16th November 2019, 04:03 PM   #2385
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
I've seen ads with mugs on them with...

Billionaire
Tears
Warren

As the ad.

Personally, I'm of mixed feelings to that. I'm not a fan of endorsing suffering, after all, much as the billionaires wouldn't actually experience any realistic hardship from the loss of that small fraction of money.
I feel mixed, too. It's not really a Warren Democrat kind of way to be in general. A little guilty schadenfreude over that billionaire actually crying, sure. I mean, it shows how pampered and weird money can make you and why we need to take some of it away. But we need to be careful of that sort of stuff. Politics often makes people kinda psycho, and we should keep that in mind.
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Old 16th November 2019, 04:06 PM   #2386
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You think he was using the 1%ers donor class event as a microphone to get to Liz and Sanders? lol

You know, he could just call them if he wanted to tell them something.

They were seriously not the intended audience, unless he's turned into a troll, and one who's really bad at it.
How long until "telling a room full of people what they want to hear" becomes a valid explanation?

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Old 16th November 2019, 04:23 PM   #2387
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Obama:

Quote:
“Voters, including Democrats, are not driven by the same views that are reflected on certain left-leaning Twitter feeds, or the activist wing of our party,” he said. “And that’s not a criticism to the activist wing. Their job is to poke and prod and text and inspire and motivate. But the candidate’s job, whoever that ends up being, is to get elected.”
I think even Warren and Sanders are quite cognizant of that last part. For the most part they've avoided criticizing each other and have mostly refrained from going on the offensive against more centrist opponents.

Given that a large portion of their pool of potential voters are made up of "regular" Democrats I'm not surprised.
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Old 16th November 2019, 06:17 PM   #2388
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https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/16/polit...ieg/index.html

Wow, Mayor Pete really surged in Iowa. He seems to be taking his lessons from Obama, having a strong ground game. He's a younger Biden when it comes to policy but without the gaffs and voting history in the Senate.
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Old 16th November 2019, 06:27 PM   #2389
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/16/polit...ieg/index.html

Wow, Mayor Pete really surged in Iowa. He seems to be taking his lessons from Obama, having a strong ground game. He's a younger Biden when it comes to policy but without the gaffs and voting history in the Senate.
I think Buttigieg is more like Obama than Biden.
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Old 16th November 2019, 06:56 PM   #2390
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A more progressive candidate also risks higher conservative turnout.
Does it though? My sense is that conservatives vote at much higher rates than liberals.
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Old 16th November 2019, 08:40 PM   #2391
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
...

Does anyone have access to the NYT?
You get a few free articles each month. Have you used those up?
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Old 16th November 2019, 08:44 PM   #2392
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I think Buttigieg is more like Obama than Biden.
Definitely!

Biden and Obama are not alike just because Biden has been campaigning that Obama's administration was the Biden and Obama administration.
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Old 16th November 2019, 08:45 PM   #2393
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Does it though? My sense is that conservatives vote at much higher rates than liberals.
Is that how we took back the House?
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Old 16th November 2019, 09:07 PM   #2394
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Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove reference to material sent to AAH


Quote:
“Some call it the ‘my way or the highway’ approach to politics,” Mr. Biden, the former vice president, wrote in a Medium post. “But it’s worse than that. It’s condescending to the millions of Democrats who have a different view. It’s representative of an elitism that working and middle-class people do not share: ‘We know best; you know nothing.’ ‘If you were only as smart as I am you would agree with me.’ This is no way to get anything done.”
Linky.
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Old 16th November 2019, 09:07 PM   #2395
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Is that how we took back the House?
I think you might have missed the point there, which looks like that the threat of more conservatives voting as backlash to Warren or Sanders is probably not as scary a threat as the right wingers want to make it sound, given that the conservatives are largely going to be voting anyways, no matter who the Democratic candidate is.
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Old 16th November 2019, 09:32 PM   #2396
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You get a few free articles each month. Have you used those up?
Yep. It used to let me get a few more by going into incognito mode, but that stopped working at all a year or more ago.
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Old 16th November 2019, 09:41 PM   #2397
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/16/polit...ieg/index.html

Wow, Mayor Pete really surged in Iowa. He seems to be taking his lessons from Obama, having a strong ground game. He's a younger Biden when it comes to policy but without the gaffs and voting history in the Senate.
I think he's far smoother than Biden.

I'm just concerned that the United States is not ready to vote for a gay man to be POTUS. I also KNOW the African American vote is essential to win and I also know that people of color are inclined to be more prejudiced against gays. Mayor Pete may be able to win a Democratic caucus in Iowa or say in SF, Seattle or NYC, but I don't know if he can win a state wide election. He wasn't even elected as an "out" homosexual in the city he is Mayor.

Do we really think he can sway enough votes in Michigan, Ohio, Virginia, NC, Pennsylvania etc?
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Old 16th November 2019, 10:17 PM   #2398
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yep. It used to let me get a few more by going into incognito mode, but that stopped working at all a year or more ago.
Try the Startpage search engine and use "anonymous view". It's not the best search engine but for basic stuff the anonymous view is a tad better than incognito.
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Old 16th November 2019, 10:21 PM   #2399
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It says:



He was talking to them, not Liz and Sanders.
So he was telling them not to support Liz and Sanders?
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Old 16th November 2019, 10:32 PM   #2400
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think he's far smoother than Biden.

I'm just concerned that the United States is not ready to vote for a gay man to be POTUS. I also KNOW the African American vote is essential to win and I also know that people of color are inclined to be more prejudiced against gays. Mayor Pete may be able to win a Democratic caucus in Iowa or say in SF, Seattle or NYC, but I don't know if he can win a state wide election. He wasn't even elected as an "out" homosexual in the city he is Mayor.

Do we really think he can sway enough votes in Michigan, Ohio, Virginia, NC, Pennsylvania etc?
I feel the same way about Warren, can she stand up against the socialism attacks. And I keep wavering. But if we can expose Trump for who he is, then whoever wins the Democratic Primary can defeat him.

Buttigieg can beat Trump, gay or not. But he doesn't have the experience to stand up to the Republicans just like Obama didn't. We got a good POTUS with Obama, so how did we end up with Trump? We missed something. Obama missed something. Buttigieg can become a great POTUS. But not as a mayor taking on the Congress. He needs to learn the ropes.

Warren can take on anyone. And they are going to attack her at every place she turns. We have to get rid of McConnell at all costs. But whether we can or cannot vote McConnell out, the Republicans need to lose.

So much needs to be done to clean up Trump's mess. Buttigieg will spend the first year just figuring out the ropes, precious lost time.

I wish someone else would rise to the top. But if they don't I think Warren is a stronger candidate because she has experience, even with her overly grand goals that have little chance of instant gratification.
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